See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 18 June 2012
<scribe> scribe: Alexandre
<scribe> scribenick: betehess
Arnaud: welcome everybody
Arnaud: for the first cll,
thought it would be useful to see how we'll proceed
... worked with the staff to see how we'll do that
Arnaud: when we have no remaining
issues, then we're done
... in term of expectation, we are driven by the charter
... it sets the scope and deliverables
... there are 4 of them
... there is a note about ACLs
... as some people said it was an important issues, other
people disagreed
... because it may consume too much resource
... the note was a compromise
... the last deliverable is a test suite
<dret> yes, i will try to do so, we will talk about how to update use cases and requirements later. everybody should have the opportunity to contribute.
Arnaud: for me, the note and the
TS are secondary for now
... we need to focus on the spec
... we have a starting point: the IBM submission
... we'll develop from it
... we have some use-cases as well
... we're free to change whatever we need, even though this is
the starting point (as it's said in the charter)
<mhausenblas> I think we really need to put some efforts into the UC (and derive requirements, properly)
Arnaud: we need to identify the
questions and see how the Submission answers them
... sure that you guys have plenty of questions
<dret> yes, that's the first big task for the group. what exactly are we doing; what are we not doing?
Arnaud: that's a practical way to
get started
... we stay focus on producing a set of documents
... sounds reasonable?
... we can also considerer other materials
... I welcome any reference to them
<dret> who is there?
Arnaud: there may be other ways
to do things
... it's useful to have these references
... eg. the sparql graph store protocol
... there is obviously some overlap
... if there is a good reason to compete there, we need to
document it
dret: good intro, welcome everybody
Arnaud: for today, we want
everybody on the same page
... Steve will give you an overview of the Submission
<AndyS> s/@@/Steve Speicher/
SteveS: how should I proceed? should I just take questions?
Arnaud: depends on the team. just make sure it's recorded
<MacTed> +1 skim to start, inline questions if necessary, issues and more detailed feedback later...
<Yves> issues needs to be on the ML
Arnaud: there is a bot on IRC to record issues
Yves: for issues, the best is to
start with an email on the ML
... so that we can refer to it from trackbot
... then you can put the reference in IRC
Arnaud: ok
... so if people are questions, just raise them on IRC
... for real issues, please send an email to the list
<SteveS> Member Submission envelope page http://www.w3.org/Submission/2012/02/
<SteveS> Use case and requirements http://www.w3.org/Submission/2012/02/
<mhausenblas> BTW, the tracker for this WG is here: https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/
SteveS: that's a like to the cover page of the Member Submission
<SteveS> http://www.w3.org/Submission/2012/SUBM-ldbpucr-20120326/
SteveS: want to focus on why this
is important for us
... related to the workshop we had
... my background is system integration
<olberger> mhausenblas: https://twitter.com/#!/sspeiche too
SteveS: I'm doing that at
IBM
... our problem was integration between tools
... we needed some glue code for the data
... and we needed to work with 3rd parties
... data was spread in different silos
... very limited success
... we started with "rules" from timbl
[steve is going through their experience and needs at IBM]
<olberger> IBM Rational
SteveS: we need gather lots of different data
Arnaud: we'll all contribute to
this document
... maybe we could move this content to a wiki page?
... erik, how do we work?
... only one person who edits the page? or everybody can?
<MacTed> +1 chaotic wiki to start, organized polish later
<cgueret_work> +1 to everyone edit
SteveS: who's taking the action?
Arnaud: I will
... so to get started, people can add their use-cases
... then we can review as a group what belongs there
dret: ok
<SteveS> Linked Data Basic Profile 1.0 Member Submission - http://www.w3.org/Submission/2012/SUBM-ldbp-20120326/
Arnaud: let's move on to the spec
<olberger> http://www.w3.org/Submission/ldbp/
SteveS: this documentation tries
to capture some of the requirements and use-cases
... we look at patterns that have emerged
... http/rdf best practices
<steveP> it's SteveP talking now, not me
SteveS: how to read linked
data
... we don't go through acls, security, etc.
... or schema-like things
... some terminology: we made sure we didn't create anything
new
... if we do so, we define the terms
... jump to section 4
... what are resources in this context?
<ericP> SteveS, we introduce Basic Profile Resource and Basic Profile Container
<ghard> Aren't the container hierarchies already sufficiently expressed in SIOC/AtomOWL?
SteveS: what are the relationship
with the type of resources, the value types, the
vocabulary
... some stuff is already defined in HTTP
... RDF is not the only thing
... stable urls are used across definitions of the
resource
... the response must have the right urls to help not having
different names
... people must be speaking about the same things
... there are some requirements about RDF type
... you should not have to infer it
... keep it as simple as possible
... uris are resolvable, hence the use of http
... we can provide an rdf schema to know more about the
data
<ericP> SteveS: we restrict ourselves to a set of known datatypes
SteveS: use triple for relationships between resources
<ericP> ... (instead of inventing a link relationship)
SteveS: don't create a weird
machinery
... etags should help for caching scenarios
<olberger> 4.2 : verbs
SteveS: so of course, GET must be
supported
... there are questions about which serialisations to
support
<ericP> ... MUST support application/rdf+xml, SHOULD support text/turtle
SteveS: the type of the resource
is not expected to change
... the etag questions was raised on the ML by leigh dodds
<cygri> commonscribe++
mhausenblas: some WG started to use commonscribe, but no problem here
ericP: how complex is it?
<mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/
mhausenblas: ask sandro
ericP: I'll do
SteveS: section 4.3
<ericP> ACTION: ericP to ask sandro about how difficult it is to set up CommonScribe [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/06/18-ldp-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1 - Ask sandro about how difficult it is to set up CommonScribe [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-06-25].
SteveS: http post works as expected....
<olberger> mhausenblas: obviously not ;)
SteveS: http put brings some
problems, like how to deal with state and modifications
... 4.4 defines the expected behaviour
... want to ensure that data can be updated
<Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to ask about process
mhausenblas: what is the possibility re: handling issues?
<ericP> MIG531 has Sandro
mhausenblas: someone raises one and the chairs is the one deciding if it's reasonable?
Arnaud: good question
... let's be democratic
... so I'm tempted to let anybody to bring issues
mhausenblas: raising issues is
cheap, anybody can to it
... but who decides how to go from 'raised to 'open?
<ghard> +1 be easy on raising issues. Can amend policy later if proves infeasible.
mhausenblas: does not have to be decided now, just need a policy
<MacTed> +1 anyone RAISE; Chair may arbitrarily bump to OPEN; WG as whole should decide to reject/close/ignore/etc....
mhausenblas: everybody should be
able to raise issues
... and then let the chairs to accept them
... to make sure we're not going out of scope
dret: sounds reasonable
<ericP> PROPOSED: anyone may RAISE and issue, chairs may OPEN CLOSE, REJECT, etc
<mhausenblas> +1
Arnaud: yes, also people can alway complains if something going wrong
<Yves> +1
+1
<ghard> +1
<ericP> PROPOSED: anyone may RAISE an issue, chairs may OPEN CLOSE, REJECT, etc
<SteveS> +1
<JohnArwe> +1
<cygri> +1
<MacTed> +0
<svillata> +1
<Andras> +1
<ericP> APPROVED
<ruben1> +1
<dret> +1
<Arthur> +1
SteveS: of course, DELETE means delete
SteveS: it may affect other
things
... PATCH is a good way to do things, but we have no solution
here yet
<ericP> SteveS: we've not supplied a proposed PATCH format
<ericP> ... there's a TurtlePatch on the W3C wiki
SteveS: we're still experimenting
<ericP> ... we're working on somthing of our own and are happy to bring it to the group
<Yves> note that we need to test things, so having a patch format (even incomplete) would be useful
SteveS: re: Container, I won't go
into details
... it reflect the patterns we've observed
... eg. how you get list of resources
<ericP> SteveS: factory URLs are the same as Container URLs
SteveS: especially when they are
big
... also, you don't always want to fetch all urls you
found
... there are examples for that
... the Containers also deal with how to create resources
... and see how it relates to the model
... there is an example to get the container with content
... 4.5.2 deals with retrieving partial data
... you say what you're interested in
<SteveS> GET /container1?non-member-properties HTTP/1.1
<SteveS> Host: example.org
<SteveS> Accept: text/turtle; charset=UTF-8
SteveS: just pasted an example
from the spec
... where you say what property you're interested in
... 5.1.3 allows paging
... can be decided by the server
<ericP> http://example.org/container1?firstPage
SteveS: so you need to go back to
the server to get the rest
... we found that there are other things that you may want to
do
... we kept it simple
... also, performance are important
<ghard> 206 partial content?
<ericP> server passed back a document with identifies bp:nextPage, e.g. http://example.org/container1?p=2
<mhausenblas> Michael: Wondering if we can really re-use RFC5005 as pointed out by dret - will you raise an issue on that, dret?
<ghard> k
SteveS: there are other models than that
<ericP> SteveS: i think 206 involves splitting a document
<olberger> RFC 5005 - Feed Paging and Archiving
SteveS: re: ordering, again,
there are other solutions
... interesting in OLO
<ericP> Ordered List Ontology
SteveS: the model already has the
predicates
... the server can include new statements
... the default ordering is the one in SPARQL
Arnaud: thank you steve
... best way to ask questions: send them to the list
<dret> generally speaking, we should raise the question of how much we want to reuse existing machinery/standards
Arnaud: I'd like to ask people to
send reference to related work
... graph store protocol is a w3c spec, so we really cannot
ignore it
<ericP> http://www.w3.org/2012/01/http-rdf-update/#http-post -> SPARQL 1.1 Graph Store HTTP Protocol
Arnaud: maybe LeeF can bring some
history here?
... maybe not on the phone
<ghard> http://sioc-project.org/ontology re containers
<mhausenblas> dret, what would the answer to such a question be? as much as possible? I don't think it makes sense in the general case. we need to write down the requirements (based on the UC) and of course we should re-use as much as possible and avoid NIH syndrome :)
<sandro> ACTION: sandro set up commonscribe [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/06/18-ldp-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2 - Set up commonscribe [on Sandro Hawke - due 2012-06-25].
ericP: sandro is taking the action re: commonscribe
<JohnArwe> Arnaud: Lee said back at 10:45 he was unable to attend this call
<dret> mhausenblas, NIH is a big risk, but you're right, we need a frame of reference
Arnaud: thank you all
... adjourned
<cgueret_work> bye
<ghard> Bye
<olberger> thanks all
<mhausenblas> Michael: thanks all and looking forward!
RRSAgent:, please generate minutes
<svillata> -svillata
trackbot, end telecon
<AndyS> adjourned
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136 of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/@@/Steve/ FAILED: s/@@/Steve Speicher/ Succeeded: s/Oracle/IBM/ Succeeded: s/ericP, how do we work?/erik, how do we work?/ Succeeded: s/dret/steveP/ Succeeded: s/dret/SteveS/ Succeeded: s/pagins/paging/ Found Scribe: Alexandre Found ScribeNick: betehess Default Present: +1.408.996.aaaa, [IBM], +329331aacc, AndyS, ruben, dret, Alexandre, ericP, +44.190.863.aadd, Yves, MacTed, mhausenblas, +1.845.433.aaff, cygri, john, ghard, +1.937.775.aagg, Arnaud, mkerrin, rgarcia, Andras, Arthur, Sandro Present: +1.408.996.aaaa [IBM] +329331aacc AndyS ruben dret Alexandre ericP +44.190.863.aadd Yves MacTed mhausenblas +1.845.433.aaff cygri john ghard +1.937.775.aagg Arnaud mkerrin rgarcia Andras Arthur Sandro Found Date: 18 Jun 2012 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2012/06/18-ldp-minutes.html People with action items: ericp sandro[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]