<trackbot> Date: 31 May 2012

scribenick krit

<heycam> scribenick: krit

SVG 2 update

ed: when do we publish first draft

heycam: july

ed: a lot of edits are not in the spec yet
... get the tings into the spec that you assigned for

<ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Commitments

heycam: more actual spec edits

ed: I did some edits
... like text-overflow
... I went through my actions and am working on some edits, but they are not yet ready to be committed
... any updates to discuss?

cyril: can we have a link to the chapter where the edits were made?

ed: on the wiki?

cyril: yes, a link on the wiki to the change on the spec
... it could help

Tav: it could move

cyril: e.g z-index, where is it?

Tav: I don't remeber :)

cyril: found i

t

Tav: might be good to have a link

krit: Question, what styling on element definition?

heycam: have not tried the lrecently one

Tav: as a proposal, a table seems to be ok
... problems with table might be semantcis, but that is ok and can be fixed later
... SVG 1.1 has certain IDs that are used
... but there seems no trouble to switch to heycam proposal without it

heycam: yes i think that is ok

Tav: me too

heycam: you are aksing because of edits that you are doing?

krit: yes, I would like to have a style at the beginning

heycam: can be changed later easily

Tav: yes

heycam: I finished most of marker stuff
... I am not happy about the 2nd part of the marker spec, but it can be discussed on the list

cyril: I reviewed marker and have a list of changes, send it tomorrow to the list

Tav: everyone is interessted on it, so it might be better

cyril: I mean public list or wg list

<cyril> we should use www-svg for technical discussion

heycam: we should use www-svg

general agreement to www-svg

ed: next topic

seattle/paris F2F

cyril: I made tests with Alan in Seattle
... he just used desktop client, we the equipment
... it worked
... the adobe equipment could work as well
... we have to confirm that the meeting are done as discussed

<heycam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0063.html

cyril: I think the time slots of cameron are fine

Tav: will we be able to call in?
... maybe i can go to seattle with the help of inkscape
... (small chance)

cyril: I thought it would be helpful for people from europe

Tav: yeah, but am not in paris at that time

ed: I would come

cyril: jwatt?

heycam: unlikely

cyril: who else would come to paris?
... so far we have 3?
... Is it worth to have a meeting in paris for just three? rooms are empty anyway
... we have polycom equ. so we have everything for video conference
... fine if we are just 3?

ed: yes

krit: did all people already assigned so far?

cyril: 9 so far
... doug is not

krit: I'll take car of hotel opertunities for seattle

heycam: time is good. We can publish WD a couple of days later

resolve: We go with the proposed time slots, meeting split to Seattle and Paris

resolution: We go with the proposed time slots, meeting split to Seattle and Paris

SVG 2 styling

<ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0057.html

krit: I just was not happy about the red color on elements
... continue with smaller and bold text for attributes and elements

heycam: I am fine if there are solutions that make it better
... list of quted attribute or element list might look scarry

krit: do you have an example?

heycam: try to get an example?

<heycam> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/shapes.html#RectElement -- click the "show" next to "presentation attributes"

krit: looks ok for me
... quotes are inside of links on attributes and elements, but outside for properties

heycam: I try to change it and look how it looks liek

Tav: heycam: but it is good as it is

<heycam> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/pservers.html#MeshGradients has an example of this note

krit: current style looks great, will we have the same style on WD?

heycam: yes, with exception of background
... for WD, do we want to publish it without background colors?

<ed> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/text.html#TextOverflowProcessing

krit: I think so, yes

ed: that is fine for me
... yellow background should be reviewable text

krit: but do we want to have backgrounds on WD at all?

heycam: might be ok to have different styles for publishing WD
... we don't want to have annotations either

krit: property and attributes have different blueish colors

heycam: yes, planned

krit: what for presentation attributes, should they be the attribute blue, or property blue?

heycam: they should have the attribute blue

<heycam> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/attindex.html#PresentationAttributes

krit: at the moement spec is not talking about presentation attr, but about the property, does this change for current attributes that move to presentation attributes as well?

heycam: they might later, yes

ed: next topic

<ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012May/0100.html

should we remove glyph-orientation-{horizontal,vertical}?

Remove glyph orientation vertical and horrizontal

should we remove glyph-orientation-{horizontal,vertical}?

heycam: In CSS3 it will be a text orientation property
... it is not in gecko, but in opera and webkit
... is it ok to remove it yet?
... the current writing mode spec has some possibility to use the SVG orientation property
... so should this spec still have that? is it necessary?

Tav: we might be the wrong people to ask

heycam: since CSS has it, do we need it in SVG? Do we want to continue with CSS?

krit: does CSS has angles for text orientation?

heycam: might be limited
... but angle on SVG must be a multiple of 90deg

<heycam> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-writing-modes/#text-orientation0

krit: upside down text is not possible for CSS

heycam: yes
... not sure about vertical text implementations

Tav: inkscape has it

krit: webkit as well

ed: opera has some support for it

heycam: Iam aslo happy to keep it in the spec

<ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/text.html#GlyphOrientationHorizontalProperty

nikos: Is it already deprecated?

heycam: I think so
... maybe not
... if people are confortale enough we can remove it.
... or first deprecating?

Tav: I don't know

nikos: we need feedback from japan first

ed: doe we have an action for someone?

heycam: yes

<scribe> ACTION: heycam will look into how removing GlyphOrientationHorizontalProperty would influence the web [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-svg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3299 - Will look into how removing GlyphOrientationHorizontalProperty would influence the web [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-06-07].

Removing kerning property in favour for font-kerning

<ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012May/0101.html

<heycam> letter-spacing

heycam: only webkit implements kerning
... it gives posibility to override kerning of font
... and turn off automatical kerning
... font-kerning can turn on and off automatic kenring\
... you could get all functionality of kerning with turn off kerning with font-kerining and letter-spacing
... do we want to remove duplicated behavior?

ed: I think so

krit: the quetion is if authors can still rely on specs, if we remove parts that are specified later.

heycam: if implementations haven't picked up things, we are in a lucky position that we still can change behavior

ed: on the other hand kerning is more doing letter-spacing, so it is not doing what it suposed to

heycam: I was able to find 5examples where kerning was used

krit: is it already deprecated?

heycam: it is not

krit: At least we can agree to deprecate it

heycam: as longer it remains on the spec, as more likely it will be used
... my preference is to remove it

krit: I don't have a strong feeling

ed: any objections to remove it?

resolution: remove kerning from spec
... remove kerning property from SVG spec

Tav: we should note that it got removed and how to get the same behavior?

heycam: good idea

<scribe> ACTION: heycam remove kerning and mention to use font-kerning and letter-spacing instead [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-svg-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3300 - Remove kerning and mention to use font-kerning and letter-spacing instead [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-06-07].

Should opacity property apply to markers

krit: does spec disallow it?

heycam: no
... question is from implementations point of view

krit: would be more interessting to have marker and stroke as one piece

<ed> so this is talking about <marker opacity="0.5">...</marker>, right?

heycam: I know what you mean, could be interessting

<heycam> ed, yes

Tav: we could use the new keywords

krit: that wouldn't solve the problem that you see that they are not one piece

nikos: that is something the nec compositing spec can help with, let me find a link

krit: the spec does allow opacity on markers, so you are asking for disallowing it explicitly?

<nikos> if they're in a knock-out group it would solve the problem of the stroke and the marker looking like different objects

<nikos> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/rawfile/tip/compositing/index.html

<nikos> section 8.3 I think you were referring to Cam

heycam: not really. Just wanted to discuss it, was not aware that it is allowed at that point

nikos: was added by rik, and he propably want to work more on it

heycam: looks like we can get the behavior that dirk wants

krit: well, we were asked about it on webkit

(talks about marker and stroke being one unit)

ed: sounds reasonable

<heycam> ISSUE: consider allowing stroke and markers to be rendered as one unit wrt opacity

<trackbot> Created ISSUE-2443 - Consider allowing stroke and markers to be rendered as one unit wrt opacity ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2443/edit .

<g opacity="0.5"><line marker="url()"></g>

<heycam> ISSUE-2443: Maybe the Compositing spec will allow this.

<trackbot> ISSUE-2443 Consider allowing stroke and markers to be rendered as one unit wrt opacity notes added

ed: next topic?

Meaning of overflow: auto for SVG elements

krit: is it about overflow-x/-y

heycam: related
... in CSS it means scrollbars if if affects a bigger region
... in SVG means the same as visible
... auto means in CSS never paint outside the bix, while in SVG always outside the box
... proposal: change behavior to CSS described behavior
... the current behavior of gecko

ed: might cause more clipping and perf lost on SVG

heycam: auto is not the default value

ed: true, hm not sure

krit: I would agree heycam because of consitence with cSS spec

ed: I am not sure if the CSS definition even applies to SVG since there's no scrolling in svg

heycam: For me it is more about scrolling
... in HTML content it will clip to the content
... no scrollbars
... so it is more like hidden invisible
... overflow: scroll means the same a overflow: hidden in SVG

ed: I think heycam arguments are good

<ed> I'd agree that auto is more similar to scroll, which in svg is the same as hidden

heycam: anyone against changing defintion of overflow: auto

resolution: Accept the proposal of heycam to go the CSS way for overflow: auto

<scribe> ACTION: heycam will change behavior to CSS way for overflow: auto [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-svg-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3301 - Will change behavior to CSS way for overflow: auto [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-06-07].

overflow-x/overfllow-y

<ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012May/0094.html

heycam: should both apply the same way like for HTML
... don't see any reason why we shouldn't do that

krit: think it can be a benefit for authors

ed: it is not more confusing than having CSS Transforms on box ....
... what is the usecase in SVG?

krit: different clipping behvairo

heycam: how is it done on webkit?

krit: not fully sure

<ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012May/att-0095/o.svg

heycam: anyway, implementations are different now

krit: any conclusion?

ed: we should at least define what it should do
... would like to see more usecases, but it might make sense

<scribe> ACTION: heycam will work on usecases for overflow-x/-y [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-svg-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3302 - Will work on usecases for overflow-x/-y [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-06-07].

RRSAgent: make minutes

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/I get throw my actions but did not commit yet/I went through my actions and am working on some edits, but they are not yet ready to be committed/
Succeeded: s/heycam/    cyril/
Succeeded: s/heycam/cyril/
Succeeded: s/??/nikos/
Succeeded: s/applies to SVG/applies to SVG since there's no scrolling in svg/
Found ScribeNick: krit
Inferring Scribes: krit

WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!
Possibly Present: Doug_Schepers ISSUE ISSUE-2443 P20 P21 P25 Tav aaaa cyril ed glenn heycam https krit nikos resolve scribenick thorton trackbot
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        <dbooth> Present+ amy

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0067.html

WARNING: No meeting chair found!
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Found Date: 31 May 2012
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: behavior change heycam kerning mention remove will

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