HTML-A11Y Task Force, Text Alternatives Subteam

01 May 2012

See also: IRC log


David_MacDonald, Janina, Judy, John_Foliot, Laura_Carlson
JF, John, janina


<JF> scribe: JF

<Judy> scribe: John

<JF> scribe: JF

update on coordination and check of deadlines for this week

JB: looking at the various deadlines this week

update is the agenda

updates will be given on per-topic basis

Issue 31b, Buggy Alts & Guidance: next steps

JB: thanks to David for doing the review and compilation of results

Janina has some items to address there today

JS: will take David's lists and combine into an email to the chairs - looking forward to next steps discussion

JB: hoping to loop Steve F into this - Steve recommends to file bugs and share with WCAG Techniques group

David: this is a different document - a review of Steve's document which will be reviewed later this week

Don't think Steve has commented on the HTML5 comments

JB: will this be addressed this week?

JS: yes

David: does anyone have any further feedback?

JS: unable to determine if anything is missed, but list is substantial enough to have the discussion

Multiple Authors + Laura has taken a pass on it as well

JB: the intent is that even if the first two items make this point moot, it still is valuable to get more clarity on the table.

ideal is to submit today and then await feedback - in case there is anything problematic

JS: this seems to be sufficiently damning that they will need to reconsider

This will then open the next step - CfC from the chairs

hoping that laura can join us on the phone as well as via IRC

JS: Having Mike become one of the co-authors helps add some weight as well

JB: hope to review both meta-generator and Issue 204

<janina> scribe: janina

<Judy> --- briefly interrupting 31c discussion to check in on 204 ---

Issue 204, ARIA Hidden: Janina formally transmitted TF support; next actions

judy: Checking on status of other proposals, Laura, Benjamin and people's intent

laura: Think we're set to move forward

judy: Think there's still lack of clarity we need to fix

laura: I'll put a note in and send email

janina: Suggest John's steps are a good model, text in the CP (now a note) and an email to public-html and TF lists

laura: This would mean that we stop working further on 204, correct?

judy: Given that it's formally transmitted, yes. It signals the H5 CCs to move toward a WBS
... Also suggest letting Cynthia know to forestall any further editing

<JF> +Q

judy: So, next step will be a WBS, we should plan for that a bit now ...

[general discussion]

john: the two cps are really the same, except that we describe what happens and also the implications

janina: also our details section with spec changes

john: missing what to do with aria-hidden

janina: say more?

john: no guidance on it

janina: but why would the h5 spec give aira authoring guidance?

john: mozilla and nvda are making decisions here, for instance

judy: OK, don't want to do a deep dive at this point, can you discuss during the H5 F2F?

john: OK

janina: OK

<JF> scribe: JF

Issue 31b, Buggy Alts & Guidance: next steps

JB: goal is to not cover every issue that surfaced, but rather the high-level items

Deficient argument

<Judy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Text_Alternatives/Meta_Generator_Decision_Comments#The_specification_of_the_.22generator.22_value_is_deficient

It is impossible to determine if the tag has been inserted "by hand" or not

assumption is that content is ONLY authored by a tool, or by hand, whereas a lot of content is actually manipulated via a combination

of the 2

<Judy> **jb edit** note that eval tools also add generator tags

<Judy> **jb edit** note that once gen tag added, interrupts normal validator identification of alt

<Judy> **jb edit** note gen tag is not taken out once it's in

<Judy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Text_Alternatives/Meta_Generator_Decision_Comments#The_.22generator_exception.22_results_in_inequitable_rendering_of_graphical_content

<Judy> www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Text_Alternatives/Meta_Generator_Decision_Comments#The_.22generator_exception.22_results_in_inequitable_rendering_of_graphical_content

David: wonders where the term "Magic Semantics" comes from

JB: term that has been used before, and accurately captures the problem at hand

<Judy> www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Text_Alternatives/Meta_Generator_Decision_Comments#The_.22generator_exception.22_results_in_inequitable_rendering_of_graphical_content

JB: next piece that was important to get on the record was the "weighting" criteria

not very many other examples of this procedure used - in fact are there any other judgements that used this process?

LC: thinks a lot of other decisions use the same criteria, but not as precisely as here

JB: seems that there is no issue here then?

<Judy> www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Text_Alternatives/Meta_Generator_Decision_Comments#The_.22generator_exception.22_results_in_inequitable_rendering_of_graphical_content

<Judy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Text_Alternatives/Meta_Generator_Decision_Comments#The_.22generator_exception.22_inappropriately_gives_authoring_tool_conformance_considerations_precedence_over_end-user_requirements

JB: in reviewing actual survey responses, there were very few comments that noted that this was breaking end-user requirements

Laura made mention of this.

<Judy> **jb edit** interleave the counter-evidence more frequently in the users over authors part

[Discussion on the end-user requirement being missed]

<Judy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Text_Alternatives/Meta_Generator_Decision_Comments#The_.22generator_exception.22_obviates_the_intent_of_the_Validator

<laura> I have to drop off the call now. Bye.

<Judy> bye, thx

<Judy> www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Text_Alternatives/Meta_Generator_Decision_Comments#The_.22generator_exception.22_obviates_the_intent_of_the_Validator

JF: suggests to split this into 2 separate arguments

<Judy> **jb edit** call out the two separate arguments of the "evidence catch-22" more explicitly in the last section of the 31c cp.

related but sufficiently different

David: 2 things want to ensure we have covered off

have we made the point that this contradicts WCAG 2

the other use-case was the blind photographer issue

JB: this is totally a red herring argument, so avoid getting dragged into that sink-hole

it can be addressed in the WBS if required

JS: it is currently in the spec, but in the seciton we are seeking to remove


<Judy> www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Text_Alternatives/Meta_Generator_Decision_Comments#The_.22generator_exception.22_obviates_the_intent_of_the_Validator

JB: glad to hear that there is no real concerns on this to date

<Judy> **jb edt** positive effects, negative effects

<Judy> **jb edit** positive effects, negative effects

JF: suggest moving the Use Cases to a seperate document similar to Issue 30 to help tighten up a lengthy document

<Judy> **jb edit** capture crisp paraphrase of author use cases under appropriate section, then link offline to Leif's expanded version

JF: also suggest to circle back to Mike Smith re: conformance Class Changes (maybe henri S too ?)

JB: will launch this today to the list


JB: sending this for reconsideration for re-open request

<Judy> **jb edit** quick revisions this afternoon then submit to chairs and send to lists as FYI, noting that it can be refined while counter-proposals being called

[Discussion on final URL for this wiki-page - move it to a new URI different from captured in today's minutes]

<Judy> **jb edit** move to a renamed URI, with meta_generator_reopen

Judy will move the URI, and then push to the list, etc.

Issue 194, Video Transcript: deadline probably announced soon

<Judy> JB: HTML CoChairs will likely set a deadline next week for probably the following week for an updated cp o 194

<Judy> JF: thought that was done?

<Judy> JS: thought they had provided feedback on the pending cp noting revisions suggested

<Judy> JF: got response from Sam... saying... that they needed details/specifics about what language would actually be changed in the spec

<Judy> JS: we can ask someone to help on that

<Judy> JF: I'll ask frank to fill in some details

Issue 199, ARIA Processing: Discussion at F2F, Michael preparing input

JB: Issues on this is scheduled for (hopefully) thursday ~10:00 AM

anticipate 30 minutes - may need a breakout room

Michael Cooper will be key to this, but acting remotely

Issue 203, Media Descriptors: Forwarded CP; next steps

JS: I 203 is transmitted - in the Chairs hands now

confirm next meeting; identify next scribe; adjourn

JB on vacation next week - Janina to chair. JB & JS to coordinate agenda


next call = same bat-time, same bat-channel

rrsagent help

Summary of Action Items

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Default Present: David_MacDonald, Janina, Judy, John_Foliot, Laura_Carlson
Present: David_MacDonald Janina Judy John_Foliot Laura_Carlson
Got date from IRC log name: 01 May 2012
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-text-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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