16:50:15 RRSAgent has joined #text 16:50:15 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-text-irc 16:50:43 zakim, room for 10? 16:50:46 sorry, Judy; could not schedule an adhoc conference; passcode overlap; if you do not have a fixed code you may try again 16:51:27 zakim, room for 10 at 1p for 90 minutes? 16:51:27 I don't understand your question, Judy. 16:51:43 zakim, room for 10 at 1p? 16:51:43 I don't understand your question, Judy. 16:52:52 zakim, room for 10 at 13:00p? 16:52:53 ok, Judy; conference Team_(text)17:00Z scheduled with code 2119 (A11Y) at 13:00 for 60 minutes until 1800Z 16:57:01 JF has joined #text 16:58:52 Meeting: HTML-A11Y Task Force, Text Alternatives Subteam 16:59:13 Chair: Judy 16:59:36 janina has joined #text 16:59:43 agenda+ update on coordination and check of deadlines for this week 16:59:43 agenda+ Issue 31b, Buggy Alts & Guidance: next steps 16:59:43 agenda+ Issue 31c: "Generator Exception" draft for discussion, on meta generator: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Text_Alternatives/Meta_Generator_Decision_Comments 16:59:43 agenda+ Issue 194, Video Transcript: deadline probably announced soon 16:59:43 agenda+ Issue 199, ARIA Processing: Discussion at F2F, Michael preparing input 16:59:44 agenda+ Issue 203, Media Descriptors: Forwarded CP; next steps 16:59:47 agenda+ Issue 204, ARIA Hidden: Janina formally transmitted TF support; next actions 16:59:48 agenda+ confirm next meeting; identify next scribe; adjourn 16:59:53 Team_(text)17:00Z has now started 16:59:59 +David_MacDonald 17:00:13 +??P4 17:00:20 zakim, ??P4 is Janina 17:00:20 +Janina; got it 17:00:30 +Judy 17:00:34 David has joined #text 17:01:39 +John_Foliot 17:04:26 scribe: JF 17:04:27 scribe: John 17:04:44 scribe: JF 17:04:59 zakim, take up first item 17:04:59 I don't understand 'take up first item', JF 17:05:21 zakim, take up next 17:05:21 agendum 1. "update on coordination and check of deadlines for this week" taken up [from Judy] 17:05:48 JB: looking at the various deadlines this week 17:06:28 update is the agenda 17:06:41 updates will be given on per-topic basis 17:06:46 zakim, next item 17:06:46 agendum 2. "Issue 31b, Buggy Alts & Guidance: next steps" taken up [from Judy] 17:07:08 JB: thanks to David for doing the review and compilation of results 17:07:18 Janina has some items to address there today 17:07:57 JS: will take David's lists and combine into an email to the chairs - looking forward to next steps discussion 17:08:27 JB: hoping to loop Steve F into this - Steve recommends to file bugs and shre with WCAG Techniques group 17:08:37 s/shre/share 17:09:14 David: this is a different document - a review of Steve's document which will be reviewed later this week 17:09:32 Don't think Steve has commented on the HTML5 comments 17:09:58 JB: will this be addressed this week? 17:10:01 JS: yes 17:10:22 David: does anyone have any further feedback? 17:10:41 JS: unable to determine if anything is missed, but list is substantial enough to have the discussion 17:10:46 zakim, next item 17:10:46 agendum 3. "Issue 31c: "Generator Exception" draft for discussion, on meta generator: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Text_Alternatives/Meta_Generator_Decision_Comments" taken 17:10:50 ... up [from Judy] 17:11:36 Multiple Authors + Laura has taken a pass on it as well 17:13:47 JB: the intent is that even if the first two items make this point moot, it still is valuable to get more clarity on the table. 17:14:17 ideal is to submit today and then await feedback - in case there is anything problematic 17:14:30 laura has joined #text 17:14:40 JS: this seems to be sufficiently damning that they will need to reconsider 17:15:02 This will then open the next step - CfC from the chairs 17:15:16 hoping that laura can join us on the phone as well as via IRC 17:15:30 +Laura_Carlson 17:15:52 JS: Having Mike become one of the co-authors helps add some weight as well 17:16:25 JB: hope to review both meta-generator and Issue 204 17:16:42 scribe: janina 17:17:10 --- briefly interrupting 31c discussion to check in on 204 --- 17:17:24 zakim, take up item 7 17:17:24 agendum 7. "Issue 204, ARIA Hidden: Janina formally transmitted TF support; next actions" taken up [from Judy] 17:17:28 zakim, take up item 7 17:17:28 agendum 7. "Issue 204, ARIA Hidden: Janina formally transmitted TF support; next actions" taken up [from Judy] 17:18:22 judy: Checking on status of other proposals, Laura, Benjamin and people's intent 17:18:30 laura: Think we're set to move forward 17:20:24 judy: Think there's still lack of clarity we need to fix 17:20:33 laura: I'll put a note in and send email 17:20:54 janina: Suggest John's steps are a good model, text in the CP (now a note) and an email to public-html and TF lists 17:22:03 laura: This would mean that we stop working further on 204, correct? 17:22:29 judy: Given that it's formally transmitted, yes. It signals the H5 CCs to move toward a WBS 17:23:52 judy: Also suggest letting Cynthia know to forestall any further editing 17:28:10 +Q 17:28:15 judy: So, next step will be a WBS, we should plan for that a bit now ... 17:30:06 [general discussion] 17:31:09 john: the two cps are really the same, except that we describe what happens and also the implications 17:31:18 janina: also our details section with spec changes 17:32:22 john: missing what to do with aria-hidden 17:32:25 janina: say more? 17:32:48 john: no guidance on it 17:32:59 janina: but why would the h5 spec give aira authoring guidance? 17:34:06 john: mozilla and nvda are making decisions here, for instance 17:34:40 judy: OK, don't want to do a deep dive at this point, can you discuss during the H5 F2F? 17:34:43 john: OK 17:34:45 janina: OK 17:37:03 zakim, close item 7 17:37:03 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, janina 17:37:04 scribe: JF 17:37:09 ack JF 17:37:09 q? 17:37:18 zakim, take up item 2 17:37:18 agendum 2. "Issue 31b, Buggy Alts & Guidance: next steps" taken up [from Judy] 17:37:19 zakim, tae up Item 3 17:37:21 I don't understand 'tae up Item 3', JF 17:37:34 zakim, take up item 3 17:37:34 agendum 3. "Issue 31c: "Generator Exception" draft for discussion, on meta generator: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Text_Alternatives/Meta_Generator_Decision_Comments" taken 17:37:38 ... up [from Judy] 17:38:07 JB: goal is to not cover every issue that surfaced, but rather the high-level items 17:38:37 Deficient argument 17:39:05 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Text_Alternatives/Meta_Generator_Decision_Comments#The_specification_of_the_.22generator.22_value_is_deficient 17:40:10 It is impossible to determine if the tag has been inserted "by hand" or not 17:41:07 assumption is that content is ONLY authored by a tool, or by hand, whereas a lot of content is actually manipulated via a combination 17:41:11 of the 2 17:41:37 **jb edit** note that eval tools also add generator tags 17:42:20 **jb edit** note that once gen tag added, interrupts normal validator identification of alt 17:43:25 **jb edit** note gen tag is not taken out once it's in 17:44:03 zakim, who's on the phone? 17:44:03 On the phone I see David_MacDonald, Janina, Judy, John_Foliot, Laura_Carlson 17:44:32 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Text_Alternatives/Meta_Generator_Decision_Comments#The_.22generator_exception.22_results_in_inequitable_rendering_of_graphical_content 17:45:11 www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Text_Alternatives/Meta_Generator_Decision_Comments#The_.22generator_exception.22_results_in_inequitable_rendering_of_graphical_content 17:47:04 David: wonders where the term "Magic Semantics" comes from 17:47:24 JB: term that has been used before, and accurately captures the problem at hand 17:48:15 www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Text_Alternatives/Meta_Generator_Decision_Comments#The_.22generator_exception.22_results_in_inequitable_rendering_of_graphical_content 17:48:45 JB: next piece that was important to get on the record was the "weighting" criteria 17:49:20 not very many other examples of this procedure used - in fact are there any other judgements that used this process? 17:49:45 LC: thinks a lot of other decisions use the same criteria, but not as precisely as here 17:50:03 JB: seems that there is no issue here then? 17:50:39 www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Text_Alternatives/Meta_Generator_Decision_Comments#The_.22generator_exception.22_results_in_inequitable_rendering_of_graphical_content 17:50:59 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Text_Alternatives/Meta_Generator_Decision_Comments#The_.22generator_exception.22_inappropriately_gives_authoring_tool_conformance_considerations_precedence_over_end-user_requirements 17:51:53 JB: in reviewing actual survey responses, there were very few comments that noted that this was breaking end-user requirements 17:52:04 Laura made mention of this. 17:55:27 **jb edit** interleave the counter-evidence more frequently in the users over authors part 17:56:30 [Discussion on the end-user requirement being missed] 17:56:59 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Text_Alternatives/Meta_Generator_Decision_Comments#The_.22generator_exception.22_obviates_the_intent_of_the_Validator 17:57:34 I have to drop off the call now. Bye. 17:57:45 bye, thx 17:57:46 -Laura_Carlson 17:57:49 www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Text_Alternatives/Meta_Generator_Decision_Comments#The_.22generator_exception.22_obviates_the_intent_of_the_Validator 18:01:26 JF: suggests to split this into 2 separate arguments 18:01:35 **jb edit** call out the two separate arguments of the "evidence catch-22" more explicitly in the last section of the 31c cp. 18:01:41 related but sufficiently different 18:02:04 David: 2 things want to ensure we have covered off 18:02:22 have we made the point that this contradicts WCAG 2 18:03:16 the other use-case was the blind photographer issue 18:03:39 JB: this is something of a red herring argument, so avoid getting dragged into that sink-hole 18:03:55 it can be addressed in the WBS if required 18:04:16 JS: it is currently in the spec, but in the seciton we are seeking to remove 18:04:21 s/is something of/is totally/ 18:04:27 s/secition/section 18:04:57 www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Text_Alternatives/Meta_Generator_Decision_Comments#The_.22generator_exception.22_obviates_the_intent_of_the_Validator 18:05:00 JB: glad to hear that there is no real concerns on this to date 18:07:11 **jb edt** positive effects, negative effects 18:09:31 **jb edit** positive effects, negative effects 18:10:11 JF: suggest moving the Use Cases to a seperate document similar to Issue 30 to help tighten up a lengthy document 18:10:52 **jb edit** capture crisp paraphrase of author use cases under appropriate section, then link offline to Leif's expanded version 18:11:18 JF: also suggest to circle back to Mike Smith re: conformance Class Changes (maybe henri S too ?) 18:11:49 JB: will launch this today to the list 18:11:56 (TBC) 18:12:47 JB: sending this for reconsideration for re-open request 18:14:20 **jb edit** quick revisions this afternoon then submit to chairs and send to lists as FYI, noting that it can be refined while counter-proposals being called 18:14:53 [Discussion on final URL for this wiki-page - move it to a new URI different from captured in today's minutes] 18:14:54 **jb edit** move to a renamed URI, with meta_generator_reopen 18:15:25 Judy will move the URI, and then push to the list, etc. 18:16:13 agenda? 18:16:27 zakim, take up next item 18:16:27 agendum 4. "Issue 194, Video Transcript: deadline probably announced soon" taken up [from Judy] 18:17:54 JB: HTML CoChairs will likely set a deadline next week for probably the following week for an updated cp o 194 18:18:03 JF: thought that was done? 18:18:48 JS: thought they had provided feedback on the pending cp noting revisions suggested 18:19:53 JF: got response from Sam... saying... that they needed details/specifics about what language would actually be changed in the spec 18:20:31 JS: we can ask someone to help on that 18:20:43 JF: I'll ask frank to fill in some details 18:21:05 zakim, take up next item 18:21:05 agendum 5. "Issue 199, ARIA Processing: Discussion at F2F, Michael preparing input" taken up [from Judy] 18:23:02 JB: Issues on this is scheduled for (hopefully) thursday ~10:00 AM 18:23:15 anticipate 30 minutes - may need a breakout room 18:23:41 Michael Cooper will be key to this, but acting remotely 18:25:03 zakim, next item 18:25:03 agendum 6. "Issue 203, Media Descriptors: Forwarded CP; next steps" taken up [from Judy] 18:25:22 JS: I 203 is transmitted - in the Chairs hands now 18:25:47 zakim, next item 18:25:47 agendum 6 was just opened, JF 18:25:58 agenda? 18:26:21 zakim, close item6 18:26:21 agendum 6, Issue 203, Media Descriptors: Forwarded CP; next steps, closed 18:26:23 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:26:23 7. Issue 204, ARIA Hidden: Janina formally transmitted TF support; next actions [from Judy] 18:26:30 zakim, close item 7 18:26:30 agendum 7, Issue 204, ARIA Hidden: Janina formally transmitted TF support; next actions, closed 18:26:32 I see 1 item remaining on the agenda: 18:26:32 8. confirm next meeting; identify next scribe; adjourn [from Judy] 18:26:36 zakim, item 8 18:26:36 I don't understand 'item 8', JF 18:26:53 zakim, take up item 8 18:26:53 agendum 8. "confirm next meeting; identify next scribe; adjourn" taken up [from Judy] 18:27:21 JB on vacation next week - Janina to chair. JB & JS to coordinate agenda 18:27:31 NEXT MEETING MAY 8TH 18:27:34 next call = same bat-time, same bat-channel 18:29:00 -Janina 18:29:28 -David_MacDonald 18:29:40 -Judy 18:29:41 -John_Foliot 18:29:41 Team_(text)17:00Z has ended 18:29:41 Attendees were David_MacDonald, Janina, Judy, John_Foliot, Laura_Carlson 18:31:12 rrsagent, stop log 18:31:12 I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop log', JF. Try /msg RRSAgent help 18:31:25 rrsagent, stop log 18:31:25 I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop log', JF. Try /msg RRSAgent help 18:31:39 RRSAGent, stop log 18:31:39 I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop log', JF. Try /msg RRSAgent help 18:31:50 rrsagent, creat minutes 18:31:50 I'm logging. I don't understand 'creat minutes', JF. Try /msg RRSAgent help 18:32:03 rrsagent help 18:32:26 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:32:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-text-minutes.html JF 18:33:23 rrsagent, make logs public 18:33:31 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:33:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-text-minutes.html JF 18:34:08 zakim, please part 18:34:08 Zakim has left #text 18:34:21 rrsagent, please part 18:34:21 I see no action items