<scribe> ScribeNick: ArtB

<scribe> Scribe: Art

Date: 06 March 2012

Tweak Agenda

AB: I posted a draft agenda yesterday http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2012JanMar/0023.html. After that, Scott González posted a link to some work he has done and I'd like to add that to the agenda.
... any objections to adding that topic?

DS: that would be great

AB: ok, so we'll do that and add it right after Annoucements
... any other change requests for the agenda?

Announcements

AB: any short announcements for today?

MB: I will represent Mozilla in the PAG

AB: that's excellent Matt

Touch Events and MSPointer Events

AB: yesterday, Scott mentioned the work he has been doing comparing our Touch Events with MSPointer Events http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2012JanMar/0024.html.

SG: I'm working on normalizing pointer events in jQuery

… one of the things I noticed is the divergence in touch events

… My doc compares the two approaches

… includes the pros and cons

… I haven't found anyone using MSPointer

… I list the technical diffs

… both support multiple points

… I assume there are UCs for knowing if >1 touch occurs at the same time

… If anyone knows of some UCs for this, it would be good to know

… Both systems allow getting a list of the touches

… have to start from an event object in both cases

… If only care about 1 touch at a time, MSPointer is a bit easier

… With Touches, need to go to the list so a bit cumbersome

DS: would you please distinguish these two as Webkit versus IE models?

SG: yes, I can do that
... in webkit have the touch arrays

… and from there can get the touch point data

… In IE model, the data is directly on the Event

… because the data is always for a specific pointer

… In IE will get 2 events: 1 for the first finger and a second event for the 2nd touch

SG: WK model has no concept of hovering

… at least not built in

MB: in the v2 spec, we added enter and leave events

SG: the IE model does support hovering

… IE normalizes all pointer events into a MSPointer event

… so they do have a concept of hover

… a bit cumbersome though with touch, especially with a stylus

… Don't have full hover but that's probably a h/w limitation

DS: yes, I agree that's probably a hardware limitation

SG: MSPointer does have some future proofing

… i.e. it is easy to add new pointer devices

… currently supports pen, stylus, mouse and such but can add new devices

… Need to document more about the interaction with mouse events

… When devs are writing custom code for gestures, the data is async

… f.ex. for a swipe, need to know direction, and perhaps some other things

… This now requires a lot of custom code

… because may want to prevent the native handling

… Need some UCs from developers and the issues they are running into

AB: any comments, questions?

DS: thanks for the summary and mentioning pain point

… Do you have a sense of the +/- of both models?

SG: I've built an abstraction around mouse, pointer, touch

… I tend to think MSPointer is easier to work with

… Don't have to walk thru any arrays

… So I think it is a bit nicer but I haven't built anything advanced yet

DS: would it be possible to get some members of jQuery community to give us some feedback

… re both models i.e. the +/- of each

SG: yes, I think I can get some of that info

… i.e. try to find what people like and the pros and cons of each (IE vs. Webkit)

… I don't think the WK model is intuitive

… but people are now used to it

… When they then switch to MSPointer, there is a learning curve

… and that's unfortunate but the reality developers must face

SG: going back to the drawback to both models, that affects mouse

… causes problems f.ex. with text selection

DS: I have seen some comments about IE model being more amenable to an app that works across devices

… can start with one touch and then extend

SG: if there was a generic pointer event could stop using mouse

… one model would indeed be ideal

DS: I started down that path with D3E and touch events

… but we decided to do touch in a separate spec

SG: if we had a standard similar to pointer, an abstraction over Webkit would make sense

<mbrubeck> Mozilla also had a separate-event-per-pointer model before implementing the WebKit/W3C model: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/Touch_events_%28Mozilla_experimental%29

… and we could then add something like that to jQ

MB: Mozilla implemented our own Touch API for Windows

… like MSPointer event uses one event per touch

… it doesn't have getPointerList method

… which is a good addition

… if the app needs to know the number of touch points

… With IE can get that data

DS: we had proposed something like that for the keyboard model [D3E]

… if we were going to do something like that, would probably make sense to have methods to get all touches and another to get all keys pressed

AB: what do we do with this information and what specific follow-on action(s) are there?

DS: I think Scott agreed to do followup on the +/- of both approaches
... I just want to be clear that this IP issue means that some touch event libraries can also be affected

AB: I've been wondering how widely known is this IP disclosure

SG: I think most web developers think there is a touch standard

… a lot of confusion about what's going on and the state of the TE spec

SG: we will not abstract to MSPointer because it is not a standard

… and we will not normalize to W3C Touch Events because of the PAG

… However, if the PAG says that is OK, then that is good

… and then we can abstract on top of the TE spec

… but we won't do that until the PAG is clear here

SG: jQuery won't release a normalization layer if the feature is not a standard

… because to do so is bad for the Web

… We want to focus on standards

… and to help the W3C

DS: thanks for that information Scott

… it's good to know a standard is mandatory to be considered for a normalization layer

Update on Touch Events PAG

AB: the Touch Events PAG http://www.w3.org/2012/01/touch-pag-charter has now met twice and the minutes are Member-confidential https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-te-pag/
... I'll give a brief summary of the status but we will *not* talk any specifics about the IP Apple disclosed

AoB

AB: any other topics for today?
... re the next call, it will be scheduled when needed
... meeting adjourned

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/cause probs/causes problems/
Succeeded: s/getTouch/getPointerList/
Succeeded: s/most people/most web developers/
Found ScribeNick: ArtB
Found Scribe: Art
Default Present: +1.717.578.aaaa, +1.781.266.aabb, Cathy, +358.718.00aacc, scottgonzalez, Doug_Schepers, +1.206.792.aadd, mbrubeck, Art_Barstow
Present: Art_Barstow Cathy_Chan Doug_Schepers Matt_Brubeck Scott_Gonzalez
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2012JanMar/0023.html
Found Date: 06 Mar 2012
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2012/03/06-webevents-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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