RDF Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 09 January 2013

Seen
Andy Seaborne, Antoine Zimmermann, Arnaud Le Hors, Charles Greer, David Wood, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Gavin Carothers, Gregg Kellogg, Guus Schreiber, Ivan Herman, Markus Lanthaler, Patrick Hayes, Pierre-Antoine Champin, Sandro Hawke, Souripriya Das, Steve Harris, Yves Raimond
Scribe
Charles Greer
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. minutes of 19 Dec telecon accepted http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-12-19 link
  2. the Turtle CR will have one feature at risk: the grammar productions for SPARQL prefix and base link
Topics
15:58:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/01/09-rdf-wg-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/01/09-rdf-wg-irc

15:58:12 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

15:58:14 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394

15:58:14 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes

15:58:15 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:58:15 <trackbot> Date: 09 January 2013
15:58:41 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

15:58:41 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, Guus

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, Guus

15:58:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH_, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH_, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP

15:59:18 <AndyS> zakim, code?

Andy Seaborne: zakim, code?

15:59:18 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), AndyS

16:00:21 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?

Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is on the phone?

16:00:21 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AndyS

16:00:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH_, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH_, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP

16:00:40 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?

Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is on the phone?

16:00:40 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AndyS

16:00:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH_, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH_, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP

16:00:47 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

16:00:47 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, Guus

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, Guus

16:00:48 <Zakim> On IRC I see markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH_, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH_, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP

16:00:50 <SteveH_> I can hear andy...

Steve Harris: I can hear andy...

16:01:57 <yvesr> zakim, who is on the phone?

Yves Raimond: zakim, who is on the phone?

16:01:57 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, yvesr

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, yvesr

16:01:58 <Zakim> On IRC I see Arnaud, markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Arnaud, markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP

16:02:54 <Guus> zakim, this is rdf

Guus Schreiber: zakim, this is rdf

16:02:54 <Zakim> ok, Guus; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Guus; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

16:03:03 <Zakim> +??P6

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P6

16:03:07 <SteveH> Zakim, who's on the phone?

Steve Harris: Zakim, who's on the phone?

16:03:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see +31.20.598.aaaa, ??P11, [IPcaller], +081165aabb, ??P26, ??P12, Arnaud, ??P6

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +31.20.598.aaaa, ??P11, [IPcaller], +081165aabb, ??P26, ??P12, Arnaud, ??P6

16:03:13 <markus> zaki, ??P6 is me

Markus Lanthaler: zaki, ??P6 is me

16:03:16 <AndyS> zakim, IPcaller is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPcaller is me

16:03:16 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

16:03:17 <markus> zakim, ??P6 is me

Markus Lanthaler: zakim, ??P6 is me

16:03:18 <Zakim> +markus; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +markus; got it

16:03:22 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P11

Gregg Kellogg: zakim, I am ??P11

16:03:22 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +gkellogg; got it

16:03:27 <Guus> zakim, +31.20 is me

Guus Schreiber: zakim, +31.20 is me

16:03:27 <Zakim> +Guus; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus; got it

16:03:34 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P26 is me

Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P26 is me

16:03:34 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH; got it

16:04:01 <AZ> Zakim, +081165aabb is me

Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, +081165aabb is me

16:04:01 <Zakim> +AZ; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it

16:04:30 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

16:04:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, gkellogg, AndyS, AZ, SteveH, ??P12, Arnaud, markus

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus, gkellogg, AndyS, AZ, SteveH, ??P12, Arnaud, markus

16:04:32 <Zakim> On IRC I see cgreer, Arnaud, markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see cgreer, Arnaud, markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP

16:04:34 <Zakim> + +1.707.874.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.707.874.aacc

16:04:41 <cgreer> zakim, aacc is me

Charles Greer: zakim, aacc is me

16:04:41 <Zakim> +cgreer; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +cgreer; got it

16:05:06 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P12 is me

Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P12 is me

16:05:06 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it

16:06:02 <Zakim> +[GVoice]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[GVoice]

16:06:25 <ericP> Zakim, [GVoice] is me

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, [GVoice] is me

16:06:25 <Zakim> +ericP; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP; got it

16:06:40 <cgreer> scribenick: cgreer

(Scribe set to Charles Greer)

16:07:13 <cgreer> topic: admin

1. admin

16:07:56 <cgreer> topic: open actions

2. open actions

16:09:21 <cgreer> Topic: Turtle

3. Turtle

16:09:23 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

16:09:28 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip

16:09:28 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

16:09:29 <Zakim> +Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan

16:09:41 <sandro> (Ivan and I were in another meeting, sorry)

Sandro Hawke: (Ivan and I were in another meeting, sorry)

16:10:05 <cgreer> Guus: We have three open issues still for Turtle.  First is ISSUE-95.

Guus Schreiber: We have three open issues still for Turtle. First is ISSUE-95.

16:11:02 <cgreer> ericp: I need to keep this in mind and follow up.  I spoke with the commenter, who reluctantly agreed... to accept the resolution without overt happiness.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: I need to keep this in mind and follow up. I spoke with the commenter, who reluctantly agreed... to accept the resolution without overt happiness.

16:11:54 <Guus> RESOLVED: minutes of 19 Dec telecon accepted http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-12-19

RESOLVED: minutes of 19 Dec telecon accepted http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-12-19

16:12:34 <cgreer> Guus: Second open issue for Turtle, ISSUE-100.

Guus Schreiber: Second open issue for Turtle, ISSUE-100.

16:14:12 <cgreer> Sandro: I think the spec is just fine, and there's not enough information in the issue.

Sandro Hawke: I think the spec is just fine, and there's not enough information in the issue.

16:14:17 <AZ> is it related to ACTION-191: Add escaping to Turtle in HTML?

Antoine Zimmermann: is it related to ACTION-191: Add escaping to Turtle in HTML?

16:15:46 <sandro> action-191?

Sandro Hawke: ACTION-191?

16:15:46 <trackbot> ACTION-191 -- Gavin Carothers to add escaping to Turtle in HTML -- due 2012-10-17 -- OPEN

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-191 -- Gavin Carothers to add escaping to Turtle in HTML -- due 2012-10-17 -- OPEN

16:15:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/191

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/191

16:16:36 <cgreer> ericp: Trying to understand a document with several graphs embedded in it implicitly.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Trying to understand a document with several graphs embedded in it implicitly.

16:16:49 <cgreer> gkellogg: I put everything I find into the default graph

Gregg Kellogg: I put everything I find into the default graph

16:17:13 <cgreer> gkellogg: I even look for microdata when searching for RDFa and include that.

Gregg Kellogg: I even look for microdata when searching for RDFa and include that.

16:17:52 <cgreer> Guus: So we need to add some links to this issue description and close it.

Guus Schreiber: So we need to add some links to this issue description and close it.

16:18:01 <Zakim> + +1.408.992.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.408.992.aadd

16:18:37 <cgreer> Guus: It's still on Gavin's plate for ACTION-191

Guus Schreiber: It's still on Gavin's plate for ACTION-191

16:18:49 <cgreer> Subtopic: Well-formed lists

3.1. Well-formed lists

16:19:09 <cgreer> Sandro: I know this one, and it has nothing to do with turtle.

Sandro Hawke: I know this one, and it has nothing to do with turtle.

16:19:34 <cgreer> Sandro: It's a general RDF issue, with implications for turtle.

Sandro Hawke: It's a general RDF issue, with implications for turtle.

16:19:50 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.603.897.aaee

16:19:59 <Souri> zakim, aaee is me

Souripriya Das: zakim, aaee is me

16:19:59 <Zakim> +Souri; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri; got it

16:20:12 <cgreer> ericp: Are there type constraints for well-formed lists?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Are there type constraints for well-formed lists?

16:20:12 <davidwood> Sorry - in a noisy airport and can't get a good connection.  Will try to monitor, though.  Please IRC me directly if you would like my attention.

David Wood: Sorry - in a noisy airport and can't get a good connection. Will try to monitor, though. Please IRC me directly if you would like my attention.

16:20:24 <cgreer> Sandro: My proposal is to defined well-formed lists as what turtle does here.

Sandro Hawke: My proposal is to defined well-formed lists as what turtle does here.

16:20:31 <sandro> sandro: this is based on turtle, no affecting turtle

Sandro Hawke: this is based on turtle, no affecting turtle [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:20:52 <cgreer> Guus: This in other words doesn't affect turtle.

Guus Schreiber: This in other words doesn't affect turtle.

16:21:12 <ericP> i think http://www.w3.org/mid/20130109161231.GD30410@w3.org closes ISSUE-95

Eric Prud'hommeaux: i think http://www.w3.org/mid/20130109161231.GD30410@w3.org closes ISSUE-95

16:22:15 <cgreer> ericp: The feature at risk, second bullet point in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Jan/0025.html

Eric Prud'hommeaux: The feature at risk, second bullet point in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Jan/0025.html

16:22:35 <cgreer> ericp: Assuming I know what the feature at risk is, I think it's not an issue.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Assuming I know what the feature at risk is, I think it's not an issue.

16:22:51 <cgreer> Guus: So we need a new resolution about what 'at risk features' are.

Guus Schreiber: So we need a new resolution about what 'at risk features' are.

16:23:07 <sandro> cgreer, there should not be a "@" before "ericp" in scribing....

Sandro Hawke: cgreer, there should not be a "@" before "ericp" in scribing....

16:23:57 <cgreer> Guus: We'll look for a grammar resolution that resolves conflicts.

Guus Schreiber: We'll look for a grammar resolution that resolves conflicts.

16:24:06 <cgreer> ericp: And we did that before publication.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: And we did that before publication.

16:24:19 <Zakim> +PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH

16:24:21 <Zakim> +GavinC

Zakim IRC Bot: +GavinC

16:24:30 <sandro> GRRRRRRRRRRRRR.    Stupid css "Feature at Risk" means I can't search for them.

Sandro Hawke: GRRRRRRRRRRRRR. Stupid css "Feature at Risk" means I can't search for them.

16:25:15 <cgreer> Sandro: Can I propse we not use CSS for "feature at risk?"

Sandro Hawke: Can I propose we not use CSS for "feature at risk?"

16:25:26 <cgreer> s/propse/propose
16:25:40 <PatH> zakim, mute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me

16:25:40 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted

16:27:09 <sandro> action: ericP change the AtRisk styling to allow searching documents for the words "feature" and "risk" to find Features At Risk

ACTION: ericP change the AtRisk styling to allow searching documents for the words "feature" and "risk" to find Features At Risk

16:27:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-220 - Change the AtRisk styling to allow searching documents for the words "feature" and "risk" to find Features At Risk [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2013-01-16].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-220 - Change the AtRisk styling to allow searching documents for the words "feature" and "risk" to find Features At Risk [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2013-01-16].

16:27:57 <ericP> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-grammar-grammar

Eric Prud'hommeaux: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-grammar-grammar

16:29:32 <cgreer> Guus: Either today or after telecom I'd like proposal for "Features at Risk"

Guus Schreiber: Either today or after telecom I'd like proposal for "Features at Risk"

16:30:12 <cgreer> ericp: If we accept grammar issues I can remove diff markings.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: If we accept grammar issues I can remove diff markings.

16:30:34 <cgreer> gavinc: They are editorial and only changes are in line with features at risk.

Gavin Carothers: They are editorial and only changes are in line with features at risk.

16:31:43 <ericP> PROPOSAL: the Turtle CR will have one feature at risk: the grammar productions for SPARQL prefix and base

PROPOSED: the Turtle CR will have one feature at risk: the grammar productions for SPARQL prefix and base

16:32:14 <cgreer> Guus: What determines whether this feature is in or out?  Implementation?

Guus Schreiber: What determines whether this feature is in or out? Implementation?

16:32:26 <cgreer> ericp: Feedback is invited.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Feedback is invited.

16:32:48 <cgreer> Guus: Usually features at risk are decided by implementation experience, is this OK?

Guus Schreiber: Usually features at risk are decided by implementation experience, is this OK?

16:32:52 <cgreer> Sandro: Yes

Sandro Hawke: Yes

16:32:59 <ericP> +1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1

16:32:59 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

16:33:01 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

16:33:03 <yvesr> +1

Yves Raimond: +1

16:33:04 <cgreer> +1

+1

16:33:06 <markus> +1

Markus Lanthaler: +1

16:33:12 <Guus> +1

Guus Schreiber: +1

16:33:12 <AndyS> +1

Andy Seaborne: +1

16:33:13 <Arnaud> +1

Arnaud Le Hors: +1

16:33:14 <AZ> +1

Antoine Zimmermann: +1

16:33:21 <ericP> RESOLVED: the Turtle CR will have one feature at risk: the grammar productions for SPARQL prefix and base

RESOLVED: the Turtle CR will have one feature at risk: the grammar productions for SPARQL prefix and base

16:33:30 <gavinc> +1

Gavin Carothers: +1

16:34:17 <cgreer> Guus: A few more issues in my message...  OK HTML5 link.

Guus Schreiber: A few more issues in my message... OK HTML5 link.

16:34:29 <Zakim> -cgreer

Zakim IRC Bot: -cgreer

16:34:36 <cgreer> ... in the transition request we must indicate whether there are normative references to

... in the transition request we must indicate whether there are normative references to

16:34:38 <Zakim> +??P52

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P52

16:34:42 <cgreer> Just lost  audio.

Just lost audio.

16:35:11 <Zakim> +cgreer

Zakim IRC Bot: +cgreer

16:35:29 <ericP> Guus: the "normative ref" to HTML5 is actually in an informative section

Guus Schreiber: the "normative ref" to HTML5 is actually in an informative section [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ]

16:35:53 <ericP> ... the link is regarding script tags

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... the link is regarding script tags

16:36:04 <cgreer> Guus: I'm unclear as to the status of this document.

Guus Schreiber: I'm unclear as to the status of this document.

16:36:07 <gavinc> gavinc: The HTML5 refrence being nominative is a bug.

Gavin Carothers: The HTML5 refrence being nominative is a bug. [ Scribe Assist by Gavin Carothers ]

16:36:35 <cgreer> Sandro: as long as it's not a normative reference it's OK.

Sandro Hawke: as long as it's not a normative reference it's OK.

16:37:03 <cgreer> gavinc: The link only leads to another link, to editor's draft.

Gavin Carothers: The link only leads to another link, to editor's draft.

16:37:21 <cgreer> Guus: The purpose of this whole scheme is that it should work in five years.

Guus Schreiber: The purpose of this whole scheme is that it should work in five years.

16:37:46 <cgreer> ivan: Having a reference to stable CR document is fine and that's what we should do.

Ivan Herman: Having a reference to stable CR document is fine and that's what we should do.

16:37:56 <cgreer> gavinc: So we no longer refer to latest editor's draft?

Gavin Carothers: So we no longer refer to latest editor's draft?

16:38:28 <cgreer> ericp: I'm OK with that regardless of what the link end says.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: I'm OK with that regardless of what the link end says.

16:38:54 <ivan> http://localhost:8001/TR/2012/CR-html5-20121217/

Ivan Herman: http://localhost:8001/TR/2012/CR-html5-20121217/

16:38:58 <gkellogg> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/scripting-1.html#the-script-element

Gregg Kellogg: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/scripting-1.html#the-script-element

16:39:06 <ivan> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/CR-html5-20121217/

Ivan Herman: http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/CR-html5-20121217/

16:39:27 <cgreer> gavinc: I'll get the link fixed.

Gavin Carothers: I'll get the link fixed.

16:39:43 <cgreer> Guus: What about the date of the documents?

Guus Schreiber: What about the date of the documents?

16:40:51 <cgreer> sandro: When you check in, update the date.

Sandro Hawke: When you check in, update the date.

16:41:10 <cgreer> ericp: I'll update CSS and Gavin will update link reference.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: I'll update CSS and Gavin will update link reference.

16:41:20 <cgreer> Guus: It would be good to send request Friday.

Guus Schreiber: It would be good to send request Friday.

16:41:26 <cgreer> ... Can you do this in next 24 hours?

... Can you do this in next 24 hours?

16:41:30 <cgreer> gavinc: Sure.

Gavin Carothers: Sure.

16:41:48 <cgreer> subtopic: Coverage of Turtle Tests

3.2. Coverage of Turtle Tests

16:42:30 <cgreer> ericp: The goal is to look through the grammar and concepts of language features and make sure we have tests that cover them all

Eric Prud'hommeaux: The goal is to look through the grammar and concepts of language features and make sure we have tests that cover them all

16:42:52 <cgreer> ... In the process I created a set of minimal tests.  One n-triples statement, then features are minimal deviations from that.

... In the process I created a set of minimal tests. One n-triples statement, then features are minimal deviations from that.

16:43:01 <ericP> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/coverage/report.html

Eric Prud'hommeaux: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/coverage/report.html

16:43:50 <cgreer> ericp: There are some redundant tests (with exactly same features)

Eric Prud'hommeaux: There are some redundant tests (with exactly same features)

16:44:16 <cgreer> ericp: So another question - do we want to use existing test suite or minimal tests.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: So another question - do we want to use existing test suite or minimal tests.

16:44:41 <cgreer> ericp: Minimal tests have advantage of what feature is failing.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Minimal tests have advantage of what feature is failing.

16:44:41 <gavinc> "minimal tests?"

Gavin Carothers: "minimal tests?"

16:44:54 <AndyS> where are the minimal tests as a suite online?

Andy Seaborne: where are the minimal tests as a suite online?

16:44:58 <cgreer> ... If we use Andy's tests, we know they're weathered, people have been using them for a while.

... If we use Andy's tests, we know they're weathered, people have been using them for a while.

16:45:14 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

16:45:15 <cgreer> sandro: What's the advantage of having both?

Sandro Hawke: What's the advantage of not having both?

16:45:25 <cgreer> s/having/not having/
16:45:58 <cgreer> ericp: If we're pedantic about it, if somebody passes minimal tests, except the two at the end, then fail a couple of Andy's tests,

Eric Prud'hommeaux: If we're pedantic about it, if somebody passes minimal tests, except the two at the end, then fail a couple of Andy's tests,

16:46:18 <cgreer> ... Andy's tests may not pinpoint feature failures precisely.

... Andy's tests may not pinpoint feature failures precisely.

16:46:22 <gavinc> That's a failure to implement Turtle :P

Gavin Carothers: That's a failure to implement Turtle :P

16:46:39 <cgreer> Sandro: I'd rather have both sets of tests.

Sandro Hawke: I'd rather have both sets of tests.

16:46:58 <cgreer> ericp: We ran into this with SPARQL and didn't know how to resolve it.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: We ran into this with SPARQL and didn't know how to resolve it.

16:47:05 <gavinc> Turtle is a great deal smaller then a query language.

Gavin Carothers: Turtle is a great deal smaller then a query language.

16:47:31 <cgreer> ... another option is to use minimal tests when reporting on failure, and others as a second set.

... another option is to use minimal tests when reporting on failure, and others as a second set.

16:48:01 <cgreer> Sandro: Submitter should be passing all tests anyhow.

Sandro Hawke: Submitter should be passing all tests anyhow.

16:48:21 <cgreer> ericp: From SPARQL, a lot of folks failed entailment tests because they didn't implement them.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: From SPARQL, a lot of folks failed entailment tests because they didn't implement them.

16:48:50 <cgreer> ... with the minimal tests then I'd rather see a failure than a disabled test.

... with the minimal tests then I'd rather see a failure than a disabled test.

16:48:57 <gavinc> Turtle is VERY VERY tiny

Gavin Carothers: Turtle is VERY VERY tiny

16:49:03 <cgreer> Sandro: I don't think this will matter for turtle.  We expect full implementations.

Sandro Hawke: I don't think this will matter for turtle. We expect full implementations.

16:49:23 <gavinc> I expect ALL implementations to implement ALL of Turtle :P

Gavin Carothers: I expect ALL implementations to implement ALL of Turtle :P

16:49:30 <cgreer> ericp: But it's still useful to know about what the test coverage is for a given language version.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: But it's still useful to know about what the test coverage is for a given language version.

16:50:05 <cgreer> gkellogg: In RDFa we tend to break features out, and have a feature-based test suite.

Gregg Kellogg: In RDFa we tend to break features out, and have a feature-based test suite.

16:50:14 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

16:50:30 <cgreer> gkellogg: Failing features are generally removed from the test reports.

Gregg Kellogg: Failing features are generally removed from the test reports.

16:50:51 <cgreer> Sandro: It seems that Eric's tests are unit tests for debugging, and Andy's are for regression, confidence in whole system

Sandro Hawke: It seems that Eric's tests are unit tests for debugging, and Andy's are for regression, confidence in whole system

16:51:19 <cgreer> gkellogg: Interaction tests are useful.  Beyond minimal feature tests.

Gregg Kellogg: Interaction tests are useful. Beyond minimal feature tests.

16:51:32 <cgreer> ericp: But we've not been diligent to test feature interaction.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: But we've not been diligent to test feature interaction.

16:52:07 <AndyS> No test suite is complete.  Lots of weird, obscure interactions possible e.g. all bnodes are all the same.

Andy Seaborne: No test suite is complete. Lots of weird, obscure interactions possible e.g. all bnodes are all the same.

16:52:46 <cgreer> gkellogg: Also we'll find that people add tests when they hit failures.  If we find processors that all pass, but differ in a particular use case, we add a test that covers that combination.

Gregg Kellogg: Also we'll find that people add tests when they hit failures. If we find processors that all pass, but differ in a particular use case, we add a test that covers that combination.

16:52:57 <cgreer> ericp: We can do that same thing here.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: We can do that same thing here.

16:53:11 <PatH> Sorry, have to leave early fter arriving late.

Patrick Hayes: Sorry, have to leave early fter arriving late.

16:53:17 <sandro> gavinc, I wonder if we can find someone to donate a prize to the writer of the smallest turtle parser.     :-)

Sandro Hawke: gavinc, I wonder if we can find someone to donate a prize to the writer of the smallest turtle parser. :-)

16:53:32 <Zakim> -PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH

16:53:35 <cgreer> Guus: I think we list the minimal test suite in the transition request.

Guus Schreiber: I think we list the minimal test suite in the transition request.

16:53:43 <AndyS> q+ to ask where the minimal suite is

Andy Seaborne: q+ to ask where the minimal suite is

16:54:15 <gavinc> it exists inside a perl module which is now checked in with Turtle

Gavin Carothers: it exists inside a perl module which is now checked in with Turtle

16:54:36 <AndyS> So I can't execute it.  Hmm.

Andy Seaborne: So I can't execute it. Hmm.

16:55:07 <sandro> checked in with Turtle?

Sandro Hawke: checked in with Turtle?

16:55:27 <cgreer> gavinc: Didn't Greg already do reporting for the larger test suite?

Gavin Carothers: Didn't Greg already do reporting for the larger test suite?

16:55:50 <cgreer> ericp: What I don't understand is how to map features to test reports.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: What I don't understand is how to map features to test reports.

16:55:57 <cgreer> gavinc: Why do we have to do that?

Gavin Carothers: Why do we have to do that?

16:56:17 <cgreer> ericp: It's a method for finding which implementations have what shortcomings.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: It's a method for finding which implementations have what shortcomings.

16:56:36 <cgreer> sandro: this situation is for when a big test fails, and we don't know what that means.

Sandro Hawke: this situation is for when a big test fails, and we don't know what that means.

16:57:05 <cgreer> ericp: So if they've failed a small test... that justifies the division between minimal test suite and the larger one.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: So if they've failed a small test... that justifies the division between minimal test suite and the larger one.

16:57:21 <cgreer> sandro: I agree that it's good to have a distinction.

Sandro Hawke: I agree that it's good to have a distinction.

16:57:52 <cgreer> gkellogg: Two manifests would help.  In JSON-LD we decided that the tests that start at '1000' are intended to be large, hard tests.

Gregg Kellogg: Two manifests would help. In JSON-LD we decided that the tests that start at '1000' are intended to be large, hard tests.

16:58:08 <cgreer> ... for something like SPARQL, you could break it into several manifests.

... for something like SPARQL, you could break it into several manifests.

16:58:38 <cgreer> ... but turtle is small, and bigger tests that fail should probably be rewritten into smaller ones.

... but turtle is small, and bigger tests that fail should probably be rewritten into smaller ones.

16:59:04 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

16:59:20 <cgreer> ... a single test manifest is probably best here, and more practical.  We could partition the tests at some point that distinguishes between minimal tests and larger ones.

... a single test manifest is probably best here, and more practical. We could partition the tests at some point that distinguishes between minimal tests and larger ones.

17:00:34 <Zakim> -Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud

17:00:45 <ericP> -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/coverage/paths minimal tests (3rd column)

Eric Prud'hommeaux: -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/coverage/paths minimal tests (3rd column)

17:01:08 <gkellogg> q+

Gregg Kellogg: q+

17:03:03 <gavinc> ... again, does ANYONE think that Turtle implementations will NOT be complete?

Gavin Carothers: ... again, does ANYONE think that Turtle implementations will NOT be complete?

17:03:30 <cgreer> sandro: all the approved test should be in the transition request.

Sandro Hawke: all the approved test should be in the transition request.

17:03:56 <gkellogg> q-

Gregg Kellogg: q-

17:04:03 <AndyS> ack me

Andy Seaborne: ack me

17:04:03 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask where the minimal suite is

Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to ask where the minimal suite is

17:04:49 <cgreer> ericp: Do we want syntax tests that are the same as evaluation tests?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Do we want syntax tests that are the same as evaluation tests?

17:05:21 <cgreer> davidwood: My implemenations that had evaluation tests.. those were also treated as syntax tests.

David Wood: My implemenations that had evaluation tests.. those were also treated as syntax tests.

17:05:22 <AndyS> the eval test, + and - should be syntax correct.

Andy Seaborne: the eval test, + and - should be syntax correct.

17:05:47 <cgreer> ericp: It sounds like all of these tests had the reference graph with them.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: It sounds like all of these tests had the reference graph with them.

17:06:08 <cgreer> davidwood: Back then, no, there were a lot of positive tests, negative tests, and entailment tests.

Sandro Hawke: Back then, no, there were a lot of positive tests, negative tests, and entailment tests.

17:06:29 <cgreer> ... And I treated the latter as syntax tests too.

... And I treated the latter as syntax tests too.

17:06:29 <gavinc> s/davidwood/sandro
17:06:37 <cgreer> oops

oops

17:07:16 <cgreer> ericp: The difference between evaluation tests and syntax is reporting.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: The difference between evaluation tests and syntax is reporting.

17:08:18 <cgreer> I'll get it back from Gavin later.

I'll get it back from Gavin later.

17:09:18 <cgreer> ericp: Do we take all of the evaluation tests, and duplicate them as syntax tests?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Do we take all of the evaluation tests, and duplicate them as syntax tests?

17:09:30 <cgreer> ... or the opposite, eliminating redudandancies

... or the opposite, eliminating redudandancies

17:09:31 <gavinc> No. We don't do that.

Gavin Carothers: No. We don't do that.

17:10:10 <cgreer> gkellogg: I don't see a reason to remove any tests.  eval tests are a superset of syntax tests.  If you were to fail evaluation tests that passed for syntax, what does that mean?

Gregg Kellogg: I don't see a reason to remove any tests. eval tests are a superset of syntax tests. If you were to fail evaluation tests that passed for syntax, what does that mean?

17:10:23 <AndyS> There should be no syntax tested in eval that is not elsewhere.  May well have got coverage wrong and would like to see people submit new tests.

Andy Seaborne: There should be no syntax tested in eval that is not elsewhere. May well have got coverage wrong and would like to see people submit new tests.

17:10:28 <cgreer> gkellogg: The more ways you test something the better your confidence level is.

Gregg Kellogg: The more ways you test something the better your confidence level is.

17:10:33 <gavinc> Yes.

Gavin Carothers: Yes.

17:11:15 <cgreer> ivan: We have a bunch of other things to discuss.  Testing details should be out of scope for telecon.

Ivan Herman: We have a bunch of other things to discuss. Testing details should be out of scope for telecon.

17:11:25 <gkellogg> agree with Ivan

Gregg Kellogg: agree with Ivan

17:12:21 <cgreer> ivan: The charter is expiring (an example of something we need to discuss as a WG)

Ivan Herman: The charter is expiring (an example of something we need to discuss as a WG)

17:13:05 <cgreer> Guus: If you check the open issues list, we seem to be almost done.  There are some issues in cleanup tasks.

Guus Schreiber: If you check the open issues list, we seem to be almost done. There are some issues in cleanup tasks.

17:13:16 <cgreer> .. We should mainly be completing the documents.

.. We should mainly be completing the documents.

17:13:29 <AndyS> me AOB -- I have a Q about TriG and NQuads ... we are doing these aren't we?

Andy Seaborne: me AOB -- I have a Q about TriG and NQuads ... we are doing these aren't we?

17:13:29 <cgreer> ivan: But what about the semantic document discussions? We need to bring that back up.

Ivan Herman: But what about the semantic document discussions? We need to bring that back up.

17:14:46 <cgreer> I just scribed last time :)

I just scribed last time :)

17:14:50 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

17:14:52 <Zakim> -yvesr

Zakim IRC Bot: -yvesr

17:14:53 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

17:14:55 <Zakim> -Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan

17:14:57 <Zakim> -SteveH

Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveH

17:14:57 <Zakim> -AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ

17:14:58 <Zakim> -Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri

17:15:00 <Zakim> -gkellogg

Zakim IRC Bot: -gkellogg

17:15:02 <Zakim> -cgreer

Zakim IRC Bot: -cgreer

17:15:04 <markus> bye

Markus Lanthaler: bye

17:15:05 <Zakim> -GavinC

Zakim IRC Bot: -GavinC

17:15:07 <Zakim> -markus

Zakim IRC Bot: -markus

17:15:08 <Zakim> -ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP

17:15:15 <Zakim> -pchampin

Zakim IRC Bot: -pchampin

17:15:36 <ericP> Zakim, who is here?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, who is here?

17:15:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, +1.408.992.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus, +1.408.992.aadd

17:15:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see pfps, cgreer, Arnaud, markus, yvesr, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see pfps, cgreer, Arnaud, markus, yvesr, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP

17:15:47 <ericP> Zakim, please disconnect guus

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please disconnect guus

17:15:47 <Zakim> Guus is being disconnected

Zakim IRC Bot: Guus is being disconnected

17:15:48 <Zakim> -Guus

Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus

17:15:51 <ericP> Zakim, please disconnect aadd

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please disconnect aadd

17:15:51 <Zakim> +1.408.992.aadd is being disconnected

Zakim IRC Bot: +1.408.992.aadd is being disconnected

17:15:52 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended

17:15:52 <Zakim> Attendees were +31.20.598.aaaa, Arnaud, AndyS, markus, gkellogg, Guus, SteveH, AZ, +1.707.874.aacc, cgreer, yvesr, ericP, Sandro, Ivan, +1.408.992.aadd, +1.603.897.aaee, Souri,

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were +31.20.598.aaaa, Arnaud, AndyS, markus, gkellogg, Guus, SteveH, AZ, +1.707.874.aacc, cgreer, yvesr, ericP, Sandro, Ivan, +1.408.992.aadd, +1.603.897.aaee, Souri,

17:15:52 <Zakim> ... PatH, GavinC, pchampin

Zakim IRC Bot: ... PatH, GavinC, pchampin

17:19:11 <Guus> trackbot, end meeting

Guus Schreiber: trackbot, end meeting

17:19:11 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

17:19:11 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is

17:19:19 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

17:19:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/01/09-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/01/09-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot

17:19:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

17:19:20 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/09-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/09-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :

17:19:20 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ericP change the AtRisk styling to allow searching documents for the words "feature" and "risk" to find Features At Risk [1]

ACTION: ericP change the AtRisk styling to allow searching documents for the words "feature" and "risk" to find Features At Risk [1]

17:19:20 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/09-rdf-wg-irc#T16-27-09

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/09-rdf-wg-irc#T16-27-09



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This revision (#2) generated 2013-01-16 16:06:19 UTC by 'sandro', comments: None