RDF Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 19 December 2012

Seen
Andy Seaborne, Antoine Zimmermann, Arnaud Le Hors, Charles Greer, David Wood, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Gavin Carothers, Gregg Kellogg, Ivan Herman, Manu Sporny, Markus Lanthaler, Patrick Hayes, Peter Patel-Schneider, Pierre-Antoine Champin, Richard Cyganiak, Souripriya Das, Steve Harris, Ted Thibodeau, Yves Raimond, Zhe Wu
Chair
David Wood
Scribe
Charles Greer
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. RDF 1.1 Semantics will define a new entailment regime that encompasses simple entailment and the equality of literal values. link
  2. RDF 1.1 Semantics will define a new entailment regime that encompasses simple entailment and the equality of literal values. link
  3. Given the resolution that RDF 1.1 Semantics will have a new entailment regime, ISSUE-90 can be closed as editorial link
  4. Close ISSUE-108 by converting it to an action on PatH link
Topics
16:00:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/19-rdf-wg-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/19-rdf-wg-irc

16:00:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

16:01:01 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394

16:01:01 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now

16:01:02 <MacTed> Zakim, code?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, code?

16:01:02 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
16:01:02 <trackbot> Date: 19 December 2012
16:01:03 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), MacTed

16:01:10 <cgreer> scribe: cgreer

(Scribe set to Charles Greer)

16:01:13 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?

Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is on the phone?

16:01:13 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AndyS

16:01:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, markus, SteveH, Arnaud, cgreer, AndyS, cygri, gkellogg, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, gavinc, davidwood, trackbot, mischat, manu, ericP, manu1, yvesr, sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, markus, SteveH, Arnaud, cgreer, AndyS, cygri, gkellogg, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, gavinc, davidwood, trackbot, mischat, manu, ericP, manu1, yvesr, sandro

16:01:22 <MacTed> Zakim, this is RDFWG

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, this is RDFWG

16:01:22 <Zakim> ok, MacTed; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, MacTed; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

16:01:28 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?

Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is on the phone?

16:01:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P2, +1.707.874.aaaa, [IPcaller], ??P8, Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ??P2, +1.707.874.aaaa, [IPcaller], ??P8, Arnaud

16:01:30 <Zakim> -??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P8

16:01:35 <cgreer> zakim, aaaa is me

zakim, aaaa is me

16:01:35 <Zakim> +cgreer; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +cgreer; got it

16:01:36 <AndyS> zakim, IPcaller is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPcaller is me

16:01:36 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

16:01:49 <Zakim> +[OpenLink]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[OpenLink]

16:01:57 <MacTed> Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me

16:01:57 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

16:01:58 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

16:01:58 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

16:02:00 <Zakim> +??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8

16:02:01 <Zakim> +MHausenblas

Zakim IRC Bot: +MHausenblas

16:02:04 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is me

Richard Cyganiak: zakim, mhausenblas is me

16:02:04 <Zakim> +cygri; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri; got it

16:02:04 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P8

Gregg Kellogg: zakim, I am ??P8

16:02:05 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +gkellogg; got it

16:02:18 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P2 is me

Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P2 is me

16:02:18 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it

16:02:33 <Zakim> +davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood

16:02:40 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?

David Wood: Zakim, who is here?

16:02:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, cgreer, AndyS, Arnaud (muted), MacTed (muted), gkellogg, cygri, davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see yvesr, cgreer, AndyS, Arnaud (muted), MacTed (muted), gkellogg, cygri, davidwood

16:02:42 <Zakim> On IRC I see AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, markus, SteveH, Arnaud, cgreer, AndyS, cygri, gkellogg, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, gavinc, davidwood, trackbot, mischat, manu, ericP, manu1, yvesr,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, markus, SteveH, Arnaud, cgreer, AndyS, cygri, gkellogg, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, gavinc, davidwood, trackbot, mischat, manu, ericP, manu1, yvesr,

16:02:42 <Zakim> ... sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: ... sandro

16:02:52 <Zakim> +??P13

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P13

16:02:53 <cgreer> rssagent, make records public

rssagent, make records public

16:03:03 <Zakim> + +081165aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +081165aabb

16:03:17 <markus> zakim, ??p13 is me

Markus Lanthaler: zakim, ??p13 is me

16:03:17 <Zakim> +markus; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +markus; got it

16:03:17 <AZ> Zakim, aabb is me

Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, aabb is me

16:03:19 <Zakim> +AZ; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it

16:03:32 <cgreer> Topic: administration

1. administration

16:03:48 <cgreer> y

y

16:03:50 <ivan> zakim, code?

Ivan Herman: zakim, code?

16:03:50 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan

16:04:01 <davidwood> Chair: David Wood
16:04:19 <Zakim> +ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +ivan

16:04:24 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

16:04:31 <cgreer> Scribe: cgreer
16:04:33 <SteveH> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me

Steve Harris: Zakim, [IPcaller] is me

16:04:33 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH; got it

16:04:36 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 12 December telecon:  http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-12-12

David Wood: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 12 December telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-12-12

16:04:42 <Zakim> +PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH

16:04:51 <cgreer> ACCEPTED minutes

ACCEPTED minutes

16:05:03 <PatH> zakim, mute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me

16:05:03 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted

16:05:04 <davidwood> RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 12 December telecon:   http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-12-12

David Wood: RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 12 December telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-12-12

16:05:10 <davidwood> Review of action items

David Wood: Review of action items

16:05:10 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview

16:05:10 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open

16:05:13 <cgreer> Topic: Actions

2. Actions

16:05:31 <cgreer> davidwood: option actions?

David Wood: option actions?

16:05:49 <PatH> zakim,unmute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim,unmute me

16:05:51 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted

16:05:51 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

16:06:57 <cgreer> PatH: I'll run through the open actions

Patrick Hayes: I'll run through the open actions

16:07:14 <cgreer> Topic: Semantics

3. Semantics

16:07:28 <davidwood> #84 has a fix composed by Antoine which will fix the bug (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Nov/0059.html) and which I propose to use in the text unless I think of something better (unlikely).

David Wood: #84 has a fix composed by Antoine which will fix the bug (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Nov/0059.html) and which I propose to use in the text unless I think of something better (unlikely).

16:07:29 <cgreer> davidwood: ISSUE-84 on literals in non-canonical form

David Wood: ISSUE-84 on literals in non-canonical form

16:07:55 <cgreer> ... unless there's something better, this solution is proposed

... unless there's something better, this solution is proposed

16:08:07 <cgreer> AZ: accepts his own text

Antoine Zimmermann: accepts his own text

16:08:09 <Zakim> +zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2

16:08:35 <PatH> phew

Patrick Hayes: phew

16:08:57 <davidwood> PROPOSE to close ISSUE-84 using the fix composed by Antoine which will fix the bug (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Nov/0059.html)

David Wood: PROPOSE to close ISSUE-84 using the fix composed by Antoine which will fix the bug (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Nov/0059.html)

16:09:22 <AZ> +1

Antoine Zimmermann: +1

16:09:24 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

16:09:28 <cgreer> davidwood: If Peter, AZ and Pat are OK, so am I

David Wood: If Peter, AZ and Pat are OK, so am I

16:09:30 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

16:09:34 <AndyS> +1

Andy Seaborne: +1

16:09:38 <yvesr> +1

Yves Raimond: +1

16:09:41 <cgreer> RESOLVED to close Issue-84

RESOLVED to close ISSUE-84

16:09:49 <davidwood> RESOLVED to close ISSUE-84 using the fix composed by Antoine which will fix the bug (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Nov/0059.html)

David Wood: RESOLVED to close ISSUE-84 using the fix composed by Antoine which will fix the bug (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Nov/0059.html)

16:10:13 <davidwood> PROPOSED ISSUE-85 as editorial

David Wood: PROPOSED ISSUE-85 as editorial

16:10:22 <AZ> +1

Antoine Zimmermann: +1

16:10:33 <davidwood> Update RDF Semantics to distinguish between the identity of values and the (numeric) equality of values to be in line with XSD 1.1

David Wood: Update RDF Semantics to distinguish between the identity of values and the (numeric) equality of values to be in line with XSD 1.1

16:10:38 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

16:10:59 <zwu2> +1

Zhe Wu: +1

16:11:00 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

16:11:03 <cgreer> +1

+1

16:11:03 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

16:11:03 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

16:11:05 <yvesr> +1

Yves Raimond: +1

16:11:09 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

16:11:09 <ericP> agenda proposal: pub CR with SPARQL's predicateObjectList <http://w3.org/brief/MzA2>

Eric Prud'hommeaux: agenda proposal: pub CR with SPARQL's predicateObjectList <http://w3.org/brief/MzA2>

16:11:12 <SteveH> +1

Steve Harris: +1

16:11:19 <markus> +1

Markus Lanthaler: +1

16:11:21 <cgreer> RESOLVED to close ISSUE-85 as editorial

RESOLVED to close ISSUE-85 as editorial

16:11:53 <davidwood> ISSUE-90 (Define a simple form of “literal value entailment”) may be editorial in Concepts.

David Wood: ISSUE-90 (Define a simple form of “literal value entailment”) may be editorial in Concepts.

16:11:59 <davidwood> #90 will be resolved by the new organization of Concepts in which datatyped literals are introduced as part of RDF before RDFS, and the semantics will be reorganized to conform to this.

David Wood: #90 will be resolved by the new organization of Concepts in which datatyped literals are introduced as part of RDF before RDFS, and the semantics will be reorganized to conform to this.

16:12:24 <davidwood> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-90 as editorial in RDF Concepts

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-90 as editorial in RDF Concepts

16:12:43 <davidwood> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-90 as editorial in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-90 as editorial in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics

16:12:45 <cgreer> PatH: This is a question of ordering.

Patrick Hayes: This is a question of ordering.

16:12:58 <cgreer> ... Richard had suggested the reordering

... Richard had suggested the reordering

16:13:01 <Zakim> +??P21

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P21

16:13:06 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

16:13:09 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

16:13:12 <davidwood> ack cygri

David Wood: ack cygri

16:13:14 <AZ> is it really editorial?

Antoine Zimmermann: is it really editorial?

16:13:14 <pchampin> zakim, ??P21 is me

Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, ??P21 is me

16:13:14 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin; got it

16:13:19 <cgreer> cygri: Maybe this is not editorial

Richard Cyganiak: Maybe this is not editorial

16:13:38 <AZ> +1 cygri, I agree

Antoine Zimmermann: +1 cygri, I agree

16:13:39 <cgreer> ... It has an effect on the definition of the entailment regimes

... It has an effect on the definition of the entailment regimes

16:13:53 <cgreer> Could be different regime in 1.1 from 1.0.

Could be different regime in 1.1 from 1.0.

16:13:53 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

16:14:12 <PatH> We can also define the current entailment regimes as a matte of backward compatibility.

Patrick Hayes: We can also define the current entailment regimes as a matte of backward compatibility.

16:14:21 <markus> zakim, who is here?

Markus Lanthaler: zakim, who is here?

16:14:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, cgreer, AndyS, Arnaud (muted), MacTed (muted), gkellogg, cygri, davidwood, markus, AZ, ivan, SteveH, PatH, EricP, zwu2, pchampin

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see yvesr, cgreer, AndyS, Arnaud (muted), MacTed (muted), gkellogg, cygri, davidwood, markus, AZ, ivan, SteveH, PatH, EricP, zwu2, pchampin

16:14:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see pchampin, AlexHall, zwu2, PatH, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, markus, SteveH, Arnaud, cgreer, AndyS, cygri, gkellogg, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, gavinc, davidwood, trackbot, mischat,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see pchampin, AlexHall, zwu2, PatH, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, markus, SteveH, Arnaud, cgreer, AndyS, cygri, gkellogg, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, gavinc, davidwood, trackbot, mischat,

16:14:24 <Zakim> ... manu, ericP, manu1, yvesr, sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: ... manu, ericP, manu1, yvesr, sandro

16:14:46 <cgreer> AZ: I don't have anything to add except that Peter said maybe this isn't useful.

Antoine Zimmermann: I don't have anything to add except that Peter said maybe this isn't useful.

16:15:02 <cygri> PROPOSED: RDF 1.1 Semantics will define a new entailment regime that encompasses simple entailment and the equality of literal values.

PROPOSED: RDF 1.1 Semantics will define a new entailment regime that encompasses simple entailment and the equality of literal values.

16:15:04 <cgreer> ... I remember he didn't feel it was necessary to add something new.

... I remember he didn't feel it was necessary to add something new.

16:15:19 <cgreer> davidwood: Didn't Peter say it was all resolved?

David Wood: Didn't Peter say it was all resolved?

16:15:25 <cgreer> AZ: Yes

Antoine Zimmermann: Yes

16:15:46 <AZ> +1

Antoine Zimmermann: +1

16:15:50 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

16:15:51 <cgreer> davidwood: Richard proposed new entailment regime.

David Wood: Richard proposed new entailment regime.

16:15:56 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

16:15:58 <AndyS> +1

Andy Seaborne: +1

16:16:01 <cgreer> +1

+1

16:16:04 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

16:16:06 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

16:16:09 <zwu2> +1

Zhe Wu: +1

16:16:15 <ivan> zakim, mute me

Ivan Herman: zakim, mute me

16:16:15 <Zakim> ivan should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: ivan should now be muted

16:16:19 <davidwood> RESOLVED: RDF 1.1 Semantics will define a new entailment regime that encompasses simple entailment and the equality of literal values.

RESOLVED: RDF 1.1 Semantics will define a new entailment regime that encompasses simple entailment and the equality of literal values.

16:16:21 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

16:16:25 <cgreer> RESOLVED: RDF 1.1 Semantics will define a new entailment regime that encompasses simple entailment and the equality of literal values.

RESOLVED: RDF 1.1 Semantics will define a new entailment regime that encompasses simple entailment and the equality of literal values.

16:16:29 <davidwood> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-90 as editorial in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-90 as editorial in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics

16:16:51 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

16:16:52 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

16:16:52 <AZ> -0.5

Antoine Zimmermann: -0.5

16:17:01 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

16:17:56 <cgreer> AZ: concerned it's not simply editorial

Antoine Zimmermann: concerned it's not simply editorial

16:18:00 <MacTed> +0

Ted Thibodeau: +0

16:18:11 <cgreer> davidwood: Richard is going to put changes into the document with help from Pat.

David Wood: Richard is going to put changes into the document with help from Pat.

16:18:35 <cgreer> ... This document will define a new entailment regime.  Proposal is to close issue.

... This document will define a new entailment regime. Proposal is to close issue.

16:18:41 <cygri> PROPOSED: Given the resolution that RDF 1.1 Semantics will have a new entailment regime, ISSUE-90 can be closed as editorial

PROPOSED: Given the resolution that RDF 1.1 Semantics will have a new entailment regime, ISSUE-90 can be closed as editorial

16:18:52 <cgreer> ... The semantics will still just be a WD.

... The semantics will still just be a WD.

16:19:00 <AZ> +1

Antoine Zimmermann: +1

16:19:03 <yvesr> +1

Yves Raimond: +1

16:19:06 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

16:19:08 <cgreer> +1

+1

16:19:08 <zwu2> +1

Zhe Wu: +1

16:19:09 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

16:19:13 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

16:19:15 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

16:19:16 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

16:19:26 <davidwood> RESOLVED: Given the resolution that RDF 1.1 Semantics will have a new entailment regime, ISSUE-90 can be closed as editorial

RESOLVED: Given the resolution that RDF 1.1 Semantics will have a new entailment regime, ISSUE-90 can be closed as editorial

16:19:51 <cgreer> davidwood: Only outstanding semantics issues is ISSUE-108

David Wood: Only outstanding semantics issues is ISSUE-108

16:19:56 <davidwood> ISSUE-108 Semantics should reference "XML Schema Datatypes in RDF and OWL"

David Wood: ISSUE-108 Semantics should reference "XML Schema Datatypes in RDF and OWL"

16:20:14 <cgreer> davidwood: PatH has said it's an editorial issue, but requires more reading.

David Wood: PatH has said it's an editorial issue, but requires more reading.

16:20:22 <cgreer> PatH: I've agreed to do that though

Patrick Hayes: I've agreed to do that though

16:20:48 <cgreer> ... We've had a little debate about this; the document we're referring to normatively refers to 2004 semantics

... We've had a little debate about this; the document we're referring to normatively refers to 2004 semantics

16:20:57 <cgreer> ... We don't want to chain, but hopefully this isn't an issue.

... We don't want to chain, but hopefully this isn't an issue.

16:21:09 <cgreer> davidwood: is this related to 106?

David Wood: is this related to ACTION-166?

16:21:24 <davidwood> s/106/ACTION-166/
16:21:35 <davidwood> PatH: no

Patrick Hayes: no [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ]

16:21:41 <cgreer> PatH: Not exactly.  Identity across datatypes is part of the issue.

Patrick Hayes: Not exactly. Identity across datatypes is part of the issue.

16:21:58 <cgreer> ... At that time the XSD draft has been changed by newer doc.

... At that time the XSD draft has been changed by newer doc.

16:22:25 <cygri> The "XSD in RDF and OWL" document is just a Note, so it would be an informative reference from Semantics 1.1, I think.

Richard Cyganiak: The "XSD in RDF and OWL" document is just a Note, so it would be an informative reference from Semantics 1.1, I think.

16:22:41 <cgreer> davidwood: Sounds like we should receive as editorial and convert to an action.

David Wood: Sounds like we should receive as editorial and convert to an action.

16:22:46 <cgreer> PatH: Agreed

Patrick Hayes: Agreed

16:22:54 <davidwood> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-108 by converting it to an action on PatH

PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-108 by converting it to an action on PatH

16:23:04 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

16:23:05 <cygri> +1

Richard Cyganiak: +1

16:23:07 <AZ> +1

Antoine Zimmermann: +1

16:23:07 <cgreer> +1

+1

16:23:08 <pchampin> +1

Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1

16:23:09 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

16:23:11 <zwu2> +1

Zhe Wu: +1

16:23:13 <yvesr> +1

Yves Raimond: +1

16:23:17 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

16:23:23 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

16:23:32 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

16:23:38 <davidwood> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-108 by converting it to an action on PatH

RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-108 by converting it to an action on PatH

16:24:02 <davidwood> ACTION: PatH to informatively reference "XML Schema Datatypes in RDF and OWL"

ACTION: PatH to informatively reference "XML Schema Datatypes in RDF and OWL"

16:24:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-219 - Informatively reference "XML Schema Datatypes in RDF and OWL" [on Patrick Hayes - due 2012-12-26].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-219 - Informatively reference "XML Schema Datatypes in RDF and OWL" [on Patrick Hayes - due 2012-12-26].

16:24:18 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

16:24:32 <cgreer> davidwood: Anything else related to semantics?

David Wood: Anything else related to semantics?

16:24:41 <cgreer> Topic: JSON-LD

4. JSON-LD

16:24:56 <cgreer> davidwood: Issue-105.

David Wood: ISSUE-105.

16:25:19 <cgreer> gkellogg: Issue -- when confronted with a dataset, user expecting a graph should use the default dataset.

Gregg Kellogg: Issue -- when confronted with a dataset, user expecting a graph should use the default dataset.

16:25:37 <cgreer> ... This would encompass both JSON-LD and RDFa

... This would encompass both JSON-LD and RDFa

16:25:48 <cgreer> ... And the wording is MUST

... And the wording is MUST

16:26:09 <PatH> To which I object

Patrick Hayes: To which I object

16:26:51 <cgreer> gkellogg: It's reasonable to request JSON-LD rather than a pure graph syntax.  As an alternate to RDFa or turtle.

Gregg Kellogg: It's reasonable to request JSON-LD rather than a pure graph syntax. As an alternate to RDFa or turtle.

16:27:00 <cgreer> ... It's important to know what to do with dataset information in JSON-LD.

... It's important to know what to do with dataset information in JSON-LD.

16:27:04 <PatH>  +q

Patrick Hayes: +q

16:27:21 <cgreer> ... Do you see an alternative Pat?

... Do you see an alternative Pat?

16:27:35 <davidwood> ack PatH

David Wood: ack PatH

16:28:04 <cgreer> PatH: One is not to provide a solution.  Another is to require a flag to indicate what use of default graph is intended.

Patrick Hayes: One is not to provide a solution. Another is to require a flag to indicate what use of default graph is intended.

16:28:23 <cgreer> ... The problem is the MUST.  In effect, this imposes this choice on everyone.

... The problem is the MUST. In effect, this imposes this choice on everyone.

16:28:41 <cgreer> ... We've had to change one of our examples because it doesn't conform to this rule.

... We've had to change one of our examples because it doesn't conform to this rule.

16:28:50 <cgreer> ... The example used default graph for metadata.

... The example used default graph for metadata.

16:29:00 <cgreer> ... And there are lots of uses that don't conform to this MUST.

... And there are lots of uses that don't conform to this MUST.

16:29:22 <cgreer> gkellogg: If a consumer wants a graph, they must choose the default one when given a dataset.

Gregg Kellogg: If a consumer wants a graph, they must choose the default one when given a dataset.

16:29:50 <cgreer> ... In this case, the default dataset is equivalent to the dataset referred to by the name.

... In this case, the default dataset is equivalent to the dataset referred to by the name.

16:30:06 <SteveH> that also clashes with how people use TriG and NQuads

Steve Harris: that also clashes with how people use TriG and NQuads

16:30:09 <cgreer> ... But this is inconvenient use in JSON-LD.  De facto, triples are inserted into the default graph.

... But this is inconvenient use in JSON-LD. De facto, triples are inserted into the default graph.

16:30:11 <markus> I think the URL used to retrieve the document should specify what's returned, not the media type (format)

Markus Lanthaler: I think the URL used to retrieve the document should specify what's returned, not the media type (format)

16:30:26 <cgreer> PatH: But even if that's true now, it might not be in five years.

Patrick Hayes: But even if that's true now, it might not be in five years.

16:30:39 <cgreer> ... The scope of this resolution is too large.

... The scope of this resolution is too large.

16:30:48 <markus> if that URL identifies a graph you can use a dataset syntax as well and just use the default graph

Markus Lanthaler: if that URL identifies a graph you can use a dataset syntax as well and just use the default graph

16:31:03 <cgreer> ... It seems like there should just be some way to override this.

... It seems like there should just be some way to override this.

16:31:03 <markus> if it identifies a dataset, you obviously can't use a graph syntax

Markus Lanthaler: if it identifies a dataset, you obviously can't use a graph syntax

16:31:07 <SteveH> it seems like a mess to me

Steve Harris: it seems like a mess to me

16:31:16 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

16:31:22 <cgreer> gkellogg: If a property could be placed in the default graph to name where the data should go...

Gregg Kellogg: If a property could be placed in the default graph to name where the data should go...

16:31:35 <cgreer> ... We've tried not to get into semantics, but maybe that's the solution.

... We've tried not to get into semantics, but maybe that's the solution.

16:31:44 <cgreer> PatH: That's not getting into semantics.

Patrick Hayes: That's not getting into semantics.

16:31:57 <cgreer> ... We just need some 'unless' clause as an escape valve.

... We just need some 'unless' clause as an escape valve.

16:32:12 <cgreer> ... Some way to switch off this behavior.

... Some way to switch off this behavior.

16:32:23 <Zakim> -ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: -ivan

16:32:48 <cgreer> gkellogg: The way to do this is to put a triple into the default graph to identify a named graph.

Gregg Kellogg: The way to do this is to put a triple into the default graph to identify a named graph.

16:32:55 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

16:33:04 <cgreer> ... Not specific to JSON-LD... Could be done elsewhere too.

... Not specific to JSON-LD... Could be done elsewhere too.

16:33:06 <pchampin> q+

Pierre-Antoine Champin: q+

16:33:29 <cgreer> PatH: If JSON-LD maps datasets to graphs in a particular way, interoperability is at risk unless everyone does this.

Patrick Hayes: If JSON-LD maps datasets to graphs in a particular way, interoperability is at risk unless everyone does this.

16:33:51 <cgreer> ... This is broken symmetry.  No other constraint to counter.

... This is broken symmetry. No other constraint to counter.

16:33:52 <davidwood> ack cygri

David Wood: ack cygri

16:34:19 <cgreer> cygri: The reason why this is a difficult issue is that the group tried unsuccessfully to define a semantics for datasets.

Richard Cyganiak: The reason why this is a difficult issue is that the group tried unsuccessfully to define a semantics for datasets.

16:34:39 <cgreer> ... If the group had succeeded in that, we'd know what 'dataset with default graph' means.

... If the group had succeeded in that, we'd know what 'dataset with default graph' means.

16:34:58 <cgreer> ... We don't have an equivalence at this time.

... We don't have an equivalence at this time.

16:35:07 <PatH> +q

Patrick Hayes: +q

16:35:17 <PatH> -q

Patrick Hayes: -q

16:35:23 <cgreer> ... One way forward is to reconsider our decision to say nothing about dataset semantics

... One way forward is to reconsider our decision to say nothing about dataset semantics

16:35:55 <cgreer> ... If we have one sentence -- if we have a dataset with the default graph, this entails an RDF graph containing the triples of the default graph.

... If we have one sentence -- if we have a dataset with the default graph, this entails an RDF graph containing the triples of the default graph.

16:36:07 <cgreer> ... This issue would be solved by such a statement.

... This issue would be solved by such a statement.

16:36:14 <cgreer> ... Another possibility is to say nothing.

... Another possibility is to say nothing.

16:36:18 <PatH> The reason we have no semantics is that we could not agree, so left it open. Which is why I don't want to (in effect) close it for a poorer reason than the ones that blocked our progress.

Patrick Hayes: The reason we have no semantics is that we could not agree, so left it open. Which is why I don't want to (in effect) close it for a poorer reason than the ones that blocked our progress.

16:36:30 <cgreer> ... People will just do what Gregg has described anyway.

... People will just do what Gregg has described anyway.

16:37:00 <cgreer> ... We can't say it.  Unfortunate but that's an alternative.

... We can't say it. Unfortunate but that's an alternative.

16:37:21 <cgreer> davidwood: Some communities will do what gkellogg has said, regardless.

David Wood: Some communities will do what gkellogg has said, regardless.

16:37:25 <davidwood> ack pchampin

David Wood: ack pchampin

16:37:47 <pchampin> application/ld+json;singlegraphuri=http://example.org/

Pierre-Antoine Champin: application/ld+json;singlegraphuri=http://example.org/

16:37:53 <cgreer> pchampin: That's an idea, but Pat is suggesting that this is default behavior.  Maybe media type could override.

Pierre-Antoine Champin: That's an idea, but Pat is suggesting that this is default behavior. Maybe media type could override.

16:38:13 <gkellogg> q+

Gregg Kellogg: q+

16:38:18 <cgreer> ... THis is just from the top of my head, but it's an idea.

... THis is just from the top of my head, but it's an idea.

16:38:28 <PatH> I like that.

Patrick Hayes: I like that.

16:38:28 <cygri> this works in theory, but not in practice. people will not bother with it.

Richard Cyganiak: this works in theory, but not in practice. people will not bother with it.

16:38:40 <cgreer> davidwood: Although this is a good idea, we shouldn't rely on media types.  They're just a problem in practice.

David Wood: Although this is a good idea, we shouldn't rely on media types. They're just a problem in practice.

16:38:46 <yvesr> +1 on cygri

Yves Raimond: +1 on cygri

16:38:46 <davidwood> ack gkellogg

David Wood: ack gkellogg

16:38:55 <AndyS> app/ld+json; want=graph  (use the media type params)

Andy Seaborne: app/ld+json; want=graph (use the media type params)

16:39:12 <cgreer> gkellogg: Something similar to pchamin.  That's compelling.  I like the idea of some way to override this default behavior.

Gregg Kellogg: Something similar to pchamin. That's compelling. I like the idea of some way to override this default behavior.

16:39:22 <ericP> do we have any other mechanism for passing operating parameters besides media type?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: do we have any other mechanism for passing operating parameters besides media type?

16:39:31 <cgreer> ... I like the 'a triple in the default graph' to solve this problem.

... I like the 'a triple in the default graph' to solve this problem.

16:39:56 <cgreer> ... If you want to assign a named graph, the sensible place to do this is in the default graph, but the principle data in that circumstance is the named graph.

... If you want to assign a named graph, the sensible place to do this is in the default graph, but the principal data in that circumstance is the named graph.

16:39:58 <ericP> or do we want to add processing instructions to turtle...

Eric Prud'hommeaux: or do we want to add processing instructions to turtle...

16:40:12 <cgreer> s/principle/principal
16:40:42 <cgreer> ... You might not know until the end of the doc which graph the data resides in (potential objection)

... You might not know until the end of the doc which graph the data resides in (potential objection)

16:40:49 <cgreer> PatH: Does it have to be a triple in the graph?

Patrick Hayes: Does it have to be a triple in the graph?

16:41:07 <pchampin> q+

Pierre-Antoine Champin: q+

16:41:12 <cgreer> davidwood: pchampin's idea was basically a processing instruction

David Wood: pchampin's idea was basically a processing instruction

16:41:20 <davidwood> ack pchampin

David Wood: ack pchampin

16:41:21 <cgreer> pchampin: If this is just a JSON-LD problem

Pierre-Antoine Champin: If this is just a JSON-LD problem

16:41:29 <cgreer> ... the couldn't it be in the context?

... the couldn't it be in the context?

16:41:35 <cygri> it's not just a json-ld problem

Richard Cyganiak: it's not just a json-ld problem

16:41:38 <markus> I don't think it's just a JSON-LD problem

Markus Lanthaler: I don't think it's just a JSON-LD problem

16:41:44 <cgreer> gkellogg: contexts are shared.

Gregg Kellogg: contexts are shared.

16:41:44 <cygri> same for N-Quads and TriG

Richard Cyganiak: same for N-Quads and TriG

16:41:53 <cgreer> ... it would have to go into the document.

... it would have to go into the document.

16:42:16 <cgreer> ... In a JSON-LD specific way, could be a keyword in the top-level of the document, but this seems the wrong layer.

... In a JSON-LD specific way, could be a keyword in the top-level of the document, but this seems the wrong layer.

16:42:16 <PatH> Its not really a json-ld issue. It should be a matter for the RDF WG.

Patrick Hayes: Its not really a json-ld issue. It should be a matter for the RDF WG.

16:42:22 <cgreer> ... it's a dataset issue.

... it's a dataset issue.

16:42:34 <cgreer> pchampin: Agreed, but there's no concensus as to how to solve it there.

Pierre-Antoine Champin: Agreed, but there's no concensus as to how to solve it there.

16:42:53 <cgreer> ... seems like it should belong to the JSON-LD context.

... seems like it should belong to the JSON-LD context.

16:43:02 <cgreer> ... but a more general solution would be preferable.

... but a more general solution would be preferable.

16:43:14 <davidwood> STRAWPOLL: if we have a dataset with the default graph, this entails an RDF graph containing the triples of the default graph.

STRAWPOLL: if we have a dataset with the default graph, this entails an RDF graph containing the triples of the default graph.

16:43:43 <SteveH> -1 I think that's quite different to how current tools work

Steve Harris: -1 I think that's quite different to how current tools work

16:44:02 <MacTed> hm.  should "with the default graph" be "with *a* default graph"?

Ted Thibodeau: hm. should "with the default graph" be "with *a* default graph"?

16:44:03 <cgreer> gkellogg: That's OK -- with the provision that this shouldn't be the case if it's specified differently.

Gregg Kellogg: That's OK -- with the provision that this shouldn't be the case if it's specified differently.

16:44:04 <cygri> maybe even more minimal? A dataset with only default graph G is logically equivalent to a graph G?

Richard Cyganiak: maybe even more minimal? A dataset with only default graph G is logically equivalent to a graph G?

16:44:12 <cgreer> pchampin: That doesn't work -

Pierre-Antoine Champin: That doesn't work -

16:44:16 <AndyS> -0.7 (it's JSON-LD issue of one content type, not a general issue)

Andy Seaborne: -0.7 (it's JSON-LD issue of one content type, not a general issue)

16:44:33 <cgreer> davidwood: Can you name some tools that work this way Steve?

David Wood: Can you name some tools that work this way Steve?

16:44:37 <pchampin> you can't expect the default graph to assert that it should not be asserted

Pierre-Antoine Champin: you can't expect the default graph to assert that it should not be asserted

16:44:44 <cygri> AndyS, not true. it applies equally to all dataset syntaxes.

Richard Cyganiak: AndyS, not true. it applies equally to all dataset syntaxes.

16:45:01 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.603.897.aacc

16:45:15 <cgreer> SteveH: If you load a default graph into a triple store, it will generally be assigned the name from the URL it came from.

Steve Harris: If you load a default graph into a triple store, it will generally be assigned the name from the URL it came from.

16:45:16 <AndyS> cygri - other formats have two content types - graph and dataset

Andy Seaborne: cygri - other formats have two content types - graph and dataset

16:45:20 <markus> agree with cygri, this applies to all dataset syntaxes

Markus Lanthaler: agree with cygri, this applies to all dataset syntaxes

16:45:21 <cgreer> davidwood: Really?

David Wood: Really?

16:45:29 <cgreer> PatH: Why is this relevant?

Patrick Hayes: Why is this relevant?

16:45:38 <Souri> zakim, aacc is me

Souripriya Das: zakim, aacc is me

16:45:38 <Zakim> +Souri; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri; got it

16:45:42 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

16:45:43 <cygri> AndyS, not true�

Richard Cyganiak: AndyS, not true�

16:45:59 <cgreer> PatH: Even if we agreed that a dataset is just the default graph, this doesn't give JSON-LD the license to throw away default graphs.

Patrick Hayes: Even if we agreed that a dataset is just the default graph, this doesn't give JSON-LD the license to throw away default graphs.

16:46:02 <cygri> there is only one media type for TriG

Richard Cyganiak: there is only one media type for TriG

16:46:10 <cgreer> gkellogg: It would be the consumer that's throwing graphs away, not JSON-LD

Gregg Kellogg: It would be the consumer that's throwing graphs away, not JSON-LD

16:46:21 <AndyS> cygri - do you claim that trig has the same content type as Turtle?

Andy Seaborne: cygri - do you claim that trig has the same content type as Turtle?

16:46:44 <cgreer> ... If you're loading a JSON-LD into a named graph...

... If you're loading a JSON-LD into a named graph...

16:46:45 <AndyS> If I ask for TTL, I get triples, not quads.

Andy Seaborne: If I ask for TTL, I get triples, not quads.

16:46:48 <SteveH> I think whoever is speaking just came up with a really good argument for not conflating graph and dataset data formats

Steve Harris: I think whoever is speaking just came up with a really good argument for not conflating graph and dataset data formats

16:46:54 <cygri> AndyS, TriG and turtle are different formats

Richard Cyganiak: AndyS, TriG and turtle are different formats

16:46:56 <cgreer> ... but the name of that graph is not something we specify

... but the name of that graph is not something we specify

16:47:14 <cgreer> ... Richard's proposal was that, if the default graph entails a graph, then the triples are from the default dataset.

... Richard's proposal was that, if the default graph entails a graph, then the triples are from the default dataset.

16:47:33 <AndyS> In JSON-LD can't ask for triples only as things stand today.

Andy Seaborne: In JSON-LD can't ask for triples only as things stand today.

16:47:39 <cgreer> ... the only way out of this is to say, "unless otherwise specified use triples from default graph"

... the only way out of this is to say, "unless otherwise specified use triples from default graph"

16:47:45 <cgreer> ... but how to specify otherwise

... but how to specify otherwise

16:47:57 <cgreer> ... we'd create a predicate in JSON-LD namespace that could define this.

... we'd create a predicate in JSON-LD namespace that could define this.

16:48:08 <cygri> AndyS, you can't do that either in TriG or N-Quads

Richard Cyganiak: AndyS, you can't do that either in TriG or N-Quads

16:48:15 <cgreer> ... doing so allows us, later, to create a more generic predicate.

... doing so allows us, later, to create a more generic predicate.

16:48:34 <AndyS> q+

Andy Seaborne: q+

16:48:45 <davidwood> ack AndyS

David Wood: ack AndyS

16:48:46 <cgreer> davidwood: But all other syntaxes are for datasets or single graphs.

David Wood: But all other syntaxes are for datasets or single graphs.

16:49:16 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

16:49:22 <cgreer> AndyS: I'm not disputing how trig works, but I get triples from turtle, and I can't see whether I get quads or triples from JSON-LD

Andy Seaborne: I'm not disputing how trig works, but I get triples from turtle, and I can't see whether I get quads or triples from JSON-LD

16:49:39 <cgreer> ... we could say that JSON-LD only produces quads.

... we could say that JSON-LD only produces quads.

16:49:52 <cgreer> ... There's talk of a JSON-LD document only holding a single graph.

... There's talk of a JSON-LD document only holding a single graph.

16:50:21 <davidwood> ack cygri

David Wood: ack cygri

16:50:25 <SteveH> +1 to AndyS

Steve Harris: +1 to AndyS

16:50:47 <cgreer> cygri: The fundamental difference in JSON-LD is... if you're getting trig, you don't know if you're getting triples in the default graph or named graphs.

Richard Cyganiak: The fundamental difference in JSON-LD is... if you're getting trig, you don't know if you're getting triples in the default graph or named graphs.

16:50:54 <cgreer> the expectation is that turtle is for publishing graphs

the expectation is that turtle is for publishing graphs

16:51:08 <cgreer> cygri: TriG is for shipping datasets.

Richard Cyganiak: TriG is for shipping datasets.

16:51:13 <SteveH> It's not historic - it's a usability issue IMHO

Steve Harris: It's not historic - it's a usability issue IMHO

16:51:27 <cgreer> AndyS: The spec says that trig delivers quads.

Andy Seaborne: The spec says that trig delivers quads.

16:51:33 <cgreer> cygri: And same for JSON-LD.

Richard Cyganiak: And same for JSON-LD.

16:51:40 <cgreer> ... but you don't know if you're going to have any.

... but you don't know if you're going to have any.

16:51:59 <cgreer> AndyS: I'd be happy for JSON-LD to deliver datasets rather than quads.

Andy Seaborne: I'd be happy for JSON-LD to deliver datasets rather than quads.

16:52:13 <PatH> +1 to andy

Patrick Hayes: +1 to andy

16:52:36 <Zakim> +??P0

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P0

16:52:41 <cgreer> AndyS: If they've asked for triples and they get something else, that's a problem.  If the decision has moved, the client can extract triples.

Andy Seaborne: If they've asked for triples and they get something else, that's a problem. If the decision has moved, the client can extract triples.

16:52:46 <manu> zakim, I am ??P0

Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P0

16:52:46 <Zakim> +manu; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +manu; got it

16:53:05 <cgreer> cygri: If the client just wants triples, you should say what the client should do in this case.

Richard Cyganiak: If the client just wants triples, you should say what the client should do in this case.

16:53:07 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

16:53:21 <SteveH> surely that's up to the client? it's a data squash of some kind

Steve Harris: surely that's up to the client? it's a data squash of some kind

16:53:23 <markus> We are clearly saying in the spec that JSON-LD is a dataset syntax.. we only said that if the client wants a graph, it must use only the default graph

Markus Lanthaler: We are clearly saying in the spec that JSON-LD is a dataset syntax.. we only said that if the client wants a graph, it must use only the default graph

16:53:34 <cgreer> ... And it's not just a JSON-LD issue -- shipping quads or triples is a problem in more than just this format.

... And it's not just a JSON-LD issue -- shipping quads or triples is a problem in more than just this format.

16:53:42 <PatH> q

Patrick Hayes: q

16:53:52 <davidwood> q+ PatH

David Wood: q+ PatH

16:54:09 <cgreer> cygri: JSON-LD is the first format that we want to do both.

Richard Cyganiak: JSON-LD is the first format that we want to do both.

16:54:39 <SteveH> cygri, I *strongly* disagree

Steve Harris: cygri, I *strongly* disagree

16:54:54 <cgreer> AndyS: dataset is third-party publishing.

Andy Seaborne: dataset is third-party publishing.

16:54:59 <SteveH> yeah, graphs and datasets are very different

Steve Harris: yeah, graphs and datasets are very different

16:55:21 <cgreer> cygri: You can use either format in either way.  You can ship a triG file that uses only hash URIS.

Richard Cyganiak: You can use either format in either way. You can ship a triG file that uses only hash URIS.

16:55:33 <cgreer> .. and that's fine for provenance, but it's not a third-party publishing case.

.. and that's fine for provenance, but it's not a third-party publishing case.

16:55:41 <cgreer> ... the distinction isn't so clear.

... the distinction isn't so clear.

16:56:12 <davidwood> ack PatH

David Wood: ack PatH

16:56:13 <cgreer> AndyS: I think shipping triples is the primary way of exchanging information on the semantic web.

Andy Seaborne: I think shipping triples is the primary way of exchanging information on the semantic web.

16:56:38 <cgreer> PatH: Summing up -- if this is not just a JSON-LD issue, but is of the relationship between datasets and graphs

Patrick Hayes: Summing up -- if this is not just a JSON-LD issue, but is of the relationship between datasets and graphs

16:56:46 <cgreer> ... that is, the semantics of datastets.

... that is, the semantics of datastets.

16:57:01 <cgreer> AndyS, got it.

AndyS, got it.

16:57:15 <AndyS> for me, datasets are a packaging, like a tar or zip file.

Andy Seaborne: for me, datasets are a packaging, like a tar or zip file.

16:57:20 <SteveH> +1 to PatH

Steve Harris: +1 to PatH

16:57:24 <SteveH> +1 to AndyS

Steve Harris: +1 to AndyS

16:57:50 <cgreer> PatH: We've been avoiding this issue, and should continue to avoid it.

Patrick Hayes: We've been avoiding this issue, and should continue to avoid it.

16:58:02 <AndyS> We can solve the issue raised for JSON-LD if it is clear it's a dataset format.

Andy Seaborne: We can solve the issue raised for JSON-LD if it is clear it's a dataset format.

16:58:23 <cgreer> PatH: If community is using default graph in some inonsistent way, they'll run into problems.

Patrick Hayes: If community is using default graph in some inonsistent way, they'll run into problems.

16:58:25 <gkellogg> It is clear it's a dataset, but it _will_ be used where people just want a graph.

Gregg Kellogg: It is clear it's a dataset, but it _will_ be used where people just want a graph.

16:58:41 <cgreer> cygri: But this is not why we stopped on dataset semantics.

Richard Cyganiak: But this is not why we stopped on dataset semantics.

16:58:43 <Zakim> + +1.408.992.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.408.992.aadd

16:59:14 <cgreer> ... there were issues.  Here we're exploring some minimal statement about datasets and graphs, just tying down the default graph assertion in JSON-LD documents.

... there were issues. Here we're exploring some minimal statement about datasets and graphs, just tying down the default graph assertion in JSON-LD documents.

16:59:17 <SteveH> gkellogg, then you're going to have issues, in practice, with people that aren't deeply involved in the community - it's not obvious to do when you expect one and get the other

Steve Harris: gkellogg, then you're going to have issues, in practice, with people that aren't deeply involved in the community - it's not obvious to do when you expect one and get the other

16:59:22 <AndyS> (NB the WG objective was to serialize a graph , not a dataset)

Andy Seaborne: (NB the WG objective was to serialize a graph , not a dataset)

16:59:43 <gkellogg> steveh: yes, so we'd better figure out how to make this clear.

Gregg Kellogg: steveh, yes, so we'd better figure out how to make this clear.

16:59:45 <cgreer> PatH: I don't object to assertion of default graph.  Object that the default graph IS the dataset.

Patrick Hayes: I don't object to assertion of default graph. Object that the default graph IS the dataset.

17:00:00 <AndyS> Some of the language is graphish to me (e.g. "JSON-LD is designed as a lightweight syntax to express Linked Data") Its (only?) a matter of emphasis.

Andy Seaborne: Some of the language is graphish to me (e.g. "JSON-LD is designed as a lightweight syntax to express Linked Data") Its (only?) a matter of emphasis.

17:00:03 <gkellogg> s/steveh:/steveh,/
17:00:03 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

17:00:10 <SteveH> gkellogg, that's bolting the stable door after the horse has run off IMHO

Steve Harris: gkellogg, that's bolting the stable door after the horse has run off IMHO

17:00:29 <cgreer> davidwood: We've shown a lack of concensus.

David Wood: We've shown a lack of concensus.

17:00:57 <cgreer> gkellogg: In absence of any other guidance, developers will do what they feel they need to.

Gregg Kellogg: In absence of any other guidance, developers will do what they feel they need to.

17:01:13 <PatH> "probably" =/= MUST

Patrick Hayes: "probably" =/= MUST

17:01:19 <AndyS> q+

Andy Seaborne: q+

17:01:25 <cgreer> ... in JSON-LD group we can go back and talk about adding a property to handle this.

... in JSON-LD group we can go back and talk about adding a property to handle this.

17:01:40 <cgreer> ... shortsighted to do only for JSON-LD since we expect the same usage pattern elsewhere.

... shortsighted to do only for JSON-LD since we expect the same usage pattern elsewhere.

17:01:45 <davidwood> ack AndyS

David Wood: ack AndyS

17:01:58 <cgreer> AndyS: Putting the markup in the document doesn't work for me.

Andy Seaborne: Putting the markup in the document doesn't work for me.

17:02:01 <SteveH> Turtle is something like 10 years old, TriG a bit less, but it's not been an issue so far - �that should tell you something

Steve Harris: Turtle is something like 10 years old, TriG a bit less, but it's not been an issue so far - �that should tell you something

17:02:08 <SteveH> +1 to AndyS

Steve Harris: +1 to AndyS

17:02:14 <cgreer> ... The request for the document already knows context.. Too late to put it inside the document.

... The request for the document already knows context.. Too late to put it inside the document.

17:02:33 <cgreer> gkellogg: Idea is that different endpoints might be tailored for particular graph names.

Gregg Kellogg: Idea is that different endpoints might be tailored for particular graph names.

17:02:52 <PatH> +0.5 to Andy, unfortunately.

Patrick Hayes: +0.5 to Andy, unfortunately.

17:03:03 <cgreer> ... That would be a way for providers to serve both.  Looking at the triples is more useful in long run though.

... That would be a way for providers to serve both. Looking at the triples is more useful in long run though.

17:03:04 <markus> I think the point is that the consumer specifies what it wants by the URL it uses to retrieve the document and not the media type

Markus Lanthaler: I think the point is that the consumer specifies what it wants by the URL it uses to retrieve the document and not the media type

17:03:06 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

17:03:19 <PatH> Hi Peter. We finished semantics an hour ago :-)

Patrick Hayes: Hi Peter. We finished semantics an hour ago :-)

17:03:22 <cgreer> AndyS: If we have to post-process to find out the graph name, that's probably too late.

Andy Seaborne: If we have to post-process to find out the graph name, that's probably too late.

17:03:59 <cgreer> gkellogg: That's reasonable to state in best practice.  Those serving datasets and graphs should provide clear differentiated endpoints.

Gregg Kellogg: That's reasonable to state in best practice. Those serving datasets and graphs should provide clear differentiated endpoints.

17:04:17 <cgreer> ... If we don't encode it in the document, we've lost the provenance.

... If we don't encode it in the document, we've lost the provenance.

17:04:39 <davidwood> ack cygri

David Wood: ack cygri

17:04:39 <cgreer> AndyS: It sounds like a reasonable expectation (differentiated endpoints)

Andy Seaborne: It sounds like a reasonable expectation (differentiated endpoints)

17:04:43 <AndyS> q?

Andy Seaborne: q?

17:05:01 <PatH> Yes

Patrick Hayes: Yes

17:05:01 <cgreer> cygri: a triple in the document to specify which graph name... Not a pleasing idea.

Richard Cyganiak: a triple in the document to specify which graph name... Not a pleasing idea.

17:05:03 <SteveH> +1 to cygri

Steve Harris: +1 to cygri

17:05:13 <manu> I agree with Richard - don't like a triple pointing out the "primary topic graph"

Manu Sporny: I agree with Richard - don't like a triple pointing out the "primary topic graph"

17:05:14 <markus> I also don't like the idea of putting a triple in the document to specify which graph should be used

Markus Lanthaler: I also don't like the idea of putting a triple in the document to specify which graph should be used

17:05:25 <davidwood> pfps, this is about disambiguating datasets from graphs, which was brought up by a JSON-LD use case.

David Wood: pfps, this is about disambiguating datasets from graphs, which was brought up by a JSON-LD use case.

17:05:32 <SteveH> it's too late by then, makes ordering of the document matter - very bad

Steve Harris: it's too late by then, makes ordering of the document matter - very bad

17:05:32 <cgreer> ... assuming you get quads.  If you just get triples, and say nothing about the graph name, there are two alternatives... default graph or request URI.

... assuming you get quads. If you just get triples, and say nothing about the graph name, there are two alternatives... default graph or request URI.

17:05:36 <PatH> issue-105

Patrick Hayes: ISSUE-105

17:05:56 <cgreer> ... the third option, encoding in a triple, adds a third answer to the two obvious ones.

... the third option, encoding in a triple, adds a third answer to the two obvious ones.

17:06:01 <cgreer> ... why add a third one?

... why add a third one?

17:06:54 <gavinc> TopBraid Suite records the "name" of a graph in a turtle document in a magic comment. In RDF/XML it does what the original named graph paper suggested, the first xml:base attribute is the graph name. </historical context>

Gavin Carothers: TopBraid Suite records the "name" of a graph in a turtle document in a magic comment. In RDF/XML it does what the original named graph paper suggested, the first xml:base attribute is the graph name. </historical context>

17:06:58 <cgreer> PatH: One more idea.  Agreed with the detractors.

Patrick Hayes: One more idea. Agreed with the detractors.

17:07:09 <cgreer> ... how about a triple that cancels the default graph assertion

... how about a triple that cancels the default graph assertion

17:07:20 <Zakim> -zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2

17:07:33 <cgreer> ... At least apps will not silently do the wrong thing with this solution.

... At least apps will not silently do the wrong thing with this solution.

17:07:39 <pfps> who is going to produce a semantics for this magic triple?

Peter Patel-Schneider: who is going to produce a semantics for this magic triple?

17:07:46 <zwu2> have to go to another meeting. bye and happy holidays!

Zhe Wu: have to go to another meeting. bye and happy holidays!

17:07:48 <cgreer> ... If application is expecting a graph, and has got a datastore.

... If application is expecting a graph, and has got a dataset.

17:08:00 <cgreer> s/datastore/dataset
17:08:15 <cgreer> cygri: In that case couldn't the publisher just not provide default graph?

Richard Cyganiak: In that case couldn't the publisher just not provide default graph?

17:08:25 <cgreer> PathH: In this case they can just add an empty graph.

Patrick Hayes: In this case they can just add an empty graph.

17:08:35 <cgreer> ... point taken.

... point taken.

17:08:44 <SteveH> empty default graph is a common case though, in datasets

Steve Harris: empty default graph is a common case though, in datasets

17:09:03 <cgreer> PatH: If I want to use the default graph for some other purpose (from dataset data).

Patrick Hayes: If I want to use the default graph for some other purpose (from dataset data).

17:09:27 <cgreer> ... The dataset will be misread if JSON-LD obliges insertion into default graph.

... The dataset will be misread if JSON-LD obliges insertion into default graph.

17:09:37 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

17:09:45 <markus> PatH, what about if we augment the rule to say that only use the default graph if there are no named graphs

Markus Lanthaler: PatH, what about if we augment the rule to say that only use the default graph if there are no named graphs

17:10:29 <cgreer> PatH: The default graph in my app might be metadata.  I don't want data from a JSON-LD document to be used in my default graph.

Patrick Hayes: The default graph in my app might be metadata. I don't want data from a JSON-LD document to be used in my default graph.

17:10:40 <cgreer> cygri: What's the harm?

Richard Cyganiak: What's the harm?

17:11:03 <cgreer> PatH: Differentiating between metadata and data.

Patrick Hayes: Differentiating between metadata and data.

17:11:06 <markus> q+

Markus Lanthaler: q+

17:11:13 <davidwood> ack markus

David Wood: ack markus

17:11:28 <pfps> but the triples in the default graph are just triples, and you get their meaning, if they are *meta-* then you get 'meta', but so what?

Peter Patel-Schneider: but the triples in the default graph are just triples, and you get their meaning, if they are *meta-* then you get 'meta', but so what?

17:11:30 <AndyS> Have come to a position specificially for JSON-LD so it can progress?

Andy Seaborne: Have come to a position specificially for JSON-LD so it can progress?

17:11:37 <markus> sorry connection is probably too bad

Markus Lanthaler: sorry connection is probably too bad

17:11:51 <markus> what about if we augment the rule to say that only use the default graph if there are no named graphs

Markus Lanthaler: what about if we augment the rule to say that only use the default graph if there are no named graphs

17:11:57 <PatH> You are welcome

Patrick Hayes: You are welcome

17:12:03 <cgreer> davidwood: we celebrate the WG's ability to go nowhere

David Wood: we celebrate the WG's ability to go nowhere

17:13:02 <pfps> 8am PT is early already - 7:45 is ever so much more so

Peter Patel-Schneider: 8am PT is early already - 7:45 is ever so much more so

17:14:01 <PatH> 15 minutes more, in fact.

Patrick Hayes: 15 minutes more, in fact.

17:14:09 <Arnaud> thanks Eric, but no thanks :)

Arnaud Le Hors: thanks Eric, but no thanks :)

17:15:02 <cgreer> ericP: We had request to publish turtle as CR... adopting SPARQL grammar for certain productions.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: We had request to publish turtle as CR... adopting SPARQL grammar for certain productions.

17:15:02 <PatH> +1 to adopting the turtle grammar as Eric proposes.

Patrick Hayes: +1 to adopting the turtle grammar as Eric proposes.

17:15:23 <Zakim> -manu

Zakim IRC Bot: -manu

17:15:38 <ericP> agenda

Eric Prud'hommeaux: agenda

17:15:39 <PatH> Gotta leave. Bye.

Patrick Hayes: Gotta leave. Bye.

17:15:56 <Zakim> -PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH

17:16:02 <ericP> PROPOSED pub CR with SPARQL's predicateObjectList per <http://w3.org/brief/MzA2>

Eric Prud'hommeaux: PROPOSED pub CR with SPARQL's predicateObjectList per <http://w3.org/brief/MzA2>

17:16:13 <Zakim> -markus

Zakim IRC Bot: -markus

17:17:05 <ericP> PROPOSED pub CR with SPARQL's predicateObjectList per <http://w3.org/brief/MzA2> and strike the text about looking for a nice representation

Eric Prud'hommeaux: PROPOSED pub CR with SPARQL's predicateObjectList per <http://w3.org/brief/MzA2> and strike the text about looking for a nice representation

17:17:26 <cgreer> RIght, got it

RIght, got it

17:19:06 <Zakim> -yvesr

Zakim IRC Bot: -yvesr

17:19:40 <AndyS> looks OK at a quick scan

Andy Seaborne: looks OK at a quick scan

17:19:48 <Zakim> -gkellogg

Zakim IRC Bot: -gkellogg

17:19:49 <Zakim> -Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri

17:19:50 <Zakim> -AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ

17:19:51 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

17:19:51 <Zakim> -cygri

Zakim IRC Bot: -cygri

17:19:52 <Zakim> -SteveH

Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveH

17:19:55 <Zakim> -Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud

17:19:57 <Zakim> -davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: -davidwood

17:20:12 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

17:20:16 <pfps> ?

Peter Patel-Schneider: ?

17:20:32 <Zakim> - +1.408.992.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.408.992.aadd

17:20:38 <Zakim> -cgreer

Zakim IRC Bot: -cgreer

17:22:08 <gavinc> ericP, confirm that http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/rev/30fedfe973b2 is the only required change

Gavin Carothers: ericP, confirm that http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/rev/30fedfe973b2 is the only required change



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This revision (#2) generated 2012-12-19 23:32:23 UTC by 'gkellogg', comments: 'Minor clarification on dataset use as graph'