Chatlog 2013-01-09

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15:58:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/01/09-rdf-wg-irc
15:58:12 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:58:12 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:14 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
15:58:14 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
15:58:15 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:58:15 <trackbot> Date: 09 January 2013
15:58:19 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:21 <davidwood> davidwood has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:34 <yvesr> yvesr has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:41 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
15:58:41 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, Guus
15:58:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH_, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP
15:59:18 <AndyS> zakim, code?
15:59:18 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), AndyS
15:59:53 <markus> markus has joined #rdf-wg
16:00:21 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:00:21 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AndyS
16:00:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH_, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP
16:00:40 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:00:40 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AndyS
16:00:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH_, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP
16:00:47 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
16:00:47 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, Guus
16:00:48 <Zakim> On IRC I see markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH_, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP
16:00:50 <SteveH_> I can hear andy...
16:01:03 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:57 <yvesr> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:01:57 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, yvesr
16:01:58 <Zakim> On IRC I see Arnaud, markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP
16:02:54 <Guus> zakim, this is rdf
16:02:54 <Zakim> ok, Guus; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
16:03:03 <Zakim> +??P6
16:03:07 <SteveH> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:03:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see +31.20.598.aaaa, ??P11, [IPcaller], +081165aabb, ??P26, ??P12, Arnaud, ??P6
16:03:13 <markus> zaki, ??P6 is me
16:03:16 <AndyS> zakim, IPcaller is me
16:03:16 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
16:03:17 <markus> zakim, ??P6 is me
16:03:18 <Zakim> +markus; got it
16:03:22 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P11
16:03:22 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it
16:03:27 <Guus> zakim, +31.20 is me
16:03:27 <Zakim> +Guus; got it
16:03:34 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P26 is me
16:03:34 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
16:04:01 <AZ> Zakim, +081165aabb is me
16:04:01 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
16:04:18 <cgreer> cgreer has joined #rdf-wg
16:04:30 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
16:04:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, gkellogg, AndyS, AZ, SteveH, ??P12, Arnaud, markus
16:04:32 <Zakim> On IRC I see cgreer, Arnaud, markus, yvesr, davidwood, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP
16:04:34 <Zakim> + +1.707.874.aacc
16:04:41 <cgreer> zakim, aacc is me
16:04:41 <Zakim> +cgreer; got it
16:05:06 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P12 is me
16:05:06 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
16:06:02 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
16:06:25 <ericP> Zakim, [GVoice] is me
16:06:25 <Zakim> +ericP; got it
16:06:40 <cgreer> scribenick: cgreer
16:07:13 <cgreer> topic: admin
# done later in meeting --- 16:07:31 <cgreer> resolved: minutes accepted from last meeting
16:07:56 <cgreer> topic: open actions
16:09:21 <cgreer> Topic: Turtle
16:09:23 <Zakim> +Sandro
16:09:28 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
16:09:28 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
16:09:29 <Zakim> +Ivan
16:09:41 <sandro> (Ivan and I were in another meeting, sorry)
16:10:05 <cgreer> Guus: We have three open issues still for Turtle.  First is ISSUE-95.
16:11:02 <cgreer> ericp: I need to keep this in mind and follow up.  I spoke with the commenter, who reluctantly agreed... to accept the resolution without overt happiness.
16:11:54 <Guus> RESOLVED: minutes of 19 Dec telecon accepted http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-12-19
16:12:34 <cgreer> Guus: Second open issue for Turtle, ISSUE-100.
16:14:12 <cgreer> Sandro: I think the spec is just fine, and there's not enough information in the issue.
16:14:17 <AZ> is it related to ACTION-191: Add escaping to Turtle in HTML?
16:15:46 <sandro> action-191?
16:15:46 <trackbot> ACTION-191 -- Gavin Carothers to add escaping to Turtle in HTML -- due 2012-10-17 -- OPEN
16:15:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/191
16:16:36 <cgreer> ericp: Trying to understand a document with several graphs embedded in it implicitly.
16:16:49 <cgreer> gkellogg: I put everything I find into the default graph
16:17:13 <cgreer> gkellogg: I even look for microdata when searching for RDFa and include that.
16:17:52 <cgreer> Guus: So we need to add some links to this issue description and close it.
16:18:01 <Zakim> + +1.408.992.aadd
16:18:37 <cgreer> Guus: It's still on Gavin's plate for ACTION-191
16:18:49 <cgreer> Subtopic: Well-formed lists
16:19:09 <cgreer> Sandro: I know this one, and it has nothing to do with turtle.
16:19:26 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg
16:19:34 <cgreer> Sandro: It's a general RDF issue, with implications for turtle.
16:19:50 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aaee
16:19:59 <Souri> zakim, aaee is me
16:19:59 <Zakim> +Souri; got it
16:20:12 <cgreer> ericp: Are there type constraints for well-formed lists?
16:20:12 <davidwood> Sorry - in a noisy airport and can't get a good connection.  Will try to monitor, though.  Please IRC me directly if you would like my attention.
16:20:15 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
16:20:24 <cgreer> Sandro: My proposal is to defined well-formed lists as what turtle does here.
16:20:31 <sandro> sandro: this is based on turtle, no affecting turtle
16:20:52 <cgreer> Guus: This in other words doesn't affect turtle.
16:21:12 <ericP> i think http://www.w3.org/mid/20130109161231.GD30410@w3.org closes ISSUE-95
16:22:15 <cgreer> ericp: The feature at risk, second bullet point in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Jan/0025.html
16:22:35 <cgreer> ericp: Assuming I know what the feature at risk is, I think it's not an issue.
16:22:51 <cgreer> Guus: So we need a new resolution about what 'at risk features' are.
16:23:07 <sandro> cgreer, there should not be a "@" before "ericp" in scribing....
16:23:57 <cgreer> Guus: We'll look for a grammar resolution that resolves conflicts.
16:24:06 <cgreer> ericp: And we did that before publication.
16:24:19 <Zakim> +PatH
16:24:21 <Zakim> +GavinC
16:24:30 <sandro> GRRRRRRRRRRRRR.    Stupid css "Feature at Risk" means I can't search for them.
16:25:15 <cgreer> Sandro: Can I propse we not use CSS for "feature at risk?"
16:25:26 <cgreer> s/propse/propose
16:25:28 <PatH> PatH has joined #rdf-wg
16:25:40 <PatH> zakim, mute me
16:25:40 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
16:27:09 <sandro> action: ericP change the AtRisk styling to allow searching documents for the words "feature" and "risk" to find Features At Risk
16:27:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-220 - Change the AtRisk styling to allow searching documents for the words "feature" and "risk" to find Features At Risk [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2013-01-16].
16:27:57 <ericP> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-grammar-grammar
16:29:32 <cgreer> Guus: Either today or after telecom I'd like proposal for "Features at Risk"
16:30:12 <cgreer> ericp: If we accept grammar issues I can remove diff markings.
16:30:34 <cgreer> gavinc: They are editorial and only changes are in line with features at risk.
16:31:43 <ericP> PROPOSAL: the Turtle CR will have one feature at risk: the grammar productions for SPARQL prefix and base
16:32:14 <cgreer> Guus: What determines whether this feature is in or out?  Implementation?
16:32:26 <cgreer> ericp: Feedback is invited.
16:32:31 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
16:32:48 <cgreer> Guus: Usually features at risk are decided by implementation experience, is this OK?
16:32:52 <cgreer> Sandro: Yes
16:32:59 <ericP> +1
16:32:59 <ivan> +1
16:33:01 <gkellogg> +1
16:33:03 <yvesr> +1
16:33:04 <cgreer> +1
16:33:06 <markus> +1
16:33:12 <Guus> +1
16:33:12 <AndyS> +1
16:33:13 <Arnaud> +1
16:33:14 <AZ> +1
16:33:21 <ericP> RESOLVED: the Turtle CR will have one feature at risk: the grammar productions for SPARQL prefix and base
16:33:30 <gavinc> +1
16:34:17 <cgreer> Guus: A few more issues in my message...  OK HTML5 link.
16:34:29 <Zakim> -cgreer
16:34:36 <cgreer> ... in the transition request we must indicate whether there are normative references to
16:34:38 <Zakim> +??P52
16:34:42 <cgreer> Just lost  audio.
16:35:11 <Zakim> +cgreer
16:35:29 <ericP> Guus: the "normative ref" to HTML5 is actually in an informative section
16:35:53 <ericP> ... the link is regarding script tags
16:36:04 <cgreer> Guus: I'm unclear as to the status of this document.
16:36:07 <gavinc> gavinc: The HTML5 refrence being nominative is a bug.
16:36:35 <cgreer> Sandro: as long as it's not a normative reference it's OK.
16:37:03 <cgreer> gavinc: The link only leads to another link, to editor's draft.
16:37:21 <cgreer> Guus: The purpose of this whole scheme is that it should work in five years.
16:37:46 <cgreer> ivan: Having a reference to stable CR document is fine and that's what we should do.
16:37:56 <cgreer> gavinc: So we no longer refer to latest editor's draft?
16:38:28 <cgreer> ericp: I'm OK with that regardless of what the link end says.
16:38:54 <ivan> http://localhost:8001/TR/2012/CR-html5-20121217/
16:38:58 <gkellogg> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/scripting-1.html#the-script-element
16:39:06 <ivan> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/CR-html5-20121217/
16:39:27 <cgreer> gavinc: I'll get the link fixed.
16:39:43 <cgreer> Guus: What about the date of the documents?
16:40:51 <cgreer> sandro: When you check in, update the date.
16:41:10 <cgreer> ericp: I'll update CSS and Gavin will update link reference.
16:41:20 <cgreer> Guus: It would be good to send request Friday.
16:41:26 <cgreer> ... Can you do this in next 24 hours?
16:41:30 <cgreer> gavinc: Sure.
16:41:48 <cgreer> subtopic: Coverage of Turtle Tests
16:42:30 <cgreer> ericp: The goal is to look through the grammar and concepts of language features and make sure we have tests that cover them all
16:42:52 <cgreer> ... In the process I created a set of minimal tests.  One n-triples statement, then features are minimal deviations from that.
16:43:01 <ericP> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/coverage/report.html
16:43:50 <cgreer> ericp: There are some redundant tests (with exactly same features)
16:44:16 <cgreer> ericp: So another question - do we want to use existing test suite or minimal tests.
16:44:41 <cgreer> ericp: Minimal tests have advantage of what feature is failing.
16:44:41 <gavinc> "minimal tests?"
16:44:54 <AndyS> where are the minimal tests as a suite online?
16:44:58 <cgreer> ... If we use Andy's tests, we know they're weathered, people have been using them for a while.
16:45:14 <Guus> q?
16:45:15 <cgreer> sandro: What's the advantage of having both?
16:45:25 <cgreer> s/having/not having/
16:45:58 <cgreer> ericp: If we're pedantic about it, if somebody passes minimal tests, except the two at the end, then fail a couple of Andy's tests,
16:46:18 <cgreer> ... Andy's tests may not pinpoint feature failures precisely.
16:46:22 <gavinc> That's a failure to implement Turtle :P
16:46:39 <cgreer> Sandro: I'd rather have both sets of tests.
16:46:58 <cgreer> ericp: We ran into this with SPARQL and didn't know how to resolve it.
16:47:05 <gavinc> Turtle is a great deal smaller then a query language.
16:47:31 <cgreer> ... another option is to use minimal tests when reporting on failure, and others as a second set.
16:48:01 <cgreer> Sandro: Submitter should be passing all tests anyhow.
16:48:21 <cgreer> ericp: From SPARQL, a lot of folks failed entailment tests because they didn't implement them.
16:48:50 <cgreer> ... with the minimal tests then I'd rather see a failure than a disabled test.
16:48:57 <gavinc> Turtle is VERY VERY tiny
16:49:03 <cgreer> Sandro: I don't think this will matter for turtle.  We expect full implementations.
16:49:23 <gavinc> I expect ALL implementations to implement ALL of Turtle :P
16:49:30 <cgreer> ericp: But it's still useful to know about what the test coverage is for a given language version.
16:50:05 <cgreer> gkellogg: In RDFa we tend to break features out, and have a feature-based test suite.
16:50:14 <sandro> q?
16:50:30 <cgreer> gkellogg: Failing features are generally removed from the test reports.
16:50:51 <cgreer> Sandro: It seems that Eric's tests are unit tests for debugging, and Andy's are for regression, confidence in whole system
16:51:19 <cgreer> gkellogg: Interaction tests are useful.  Beyond minimal feature tests.
16:51:32 <cgreer> ericp: But we've not been diligent to test feature interaction.
16:52:07 <AndyS> No test suite is complete.  Lots of weird, obscure interactions possible e.g. all bnodes are all the same.
16:52:46 <cgreer> gkellogg: Also we'll find that people add tests when they hit failures.  If we find processors that all pass, but differ in a particular use case, we add a test that covers that combination.
16:52:57 <cgreer> ericp: We can do that same thing here.
16:53:11 <PatH> Sorry, have to leave early fter arriving late.
16:53:17 <sandro> gavinc, I wonder if we can find someone to donate a prize to the writer of the smallest turtle parser.     :-)
16:53:32 <Zakim> -PatH
16:53:35 <cgreer> Guus: I think we list the minimal test suite in the transition request.
16:53:43 <AndyS> q+ to ask where the minimal suite is
16:54:15 <gavinc> it exists inside a perl module which is now checked in with Turtle
16:54:36 <AndyS> So I can't execute it.  Hmm.
16:55:07 <sandro> checked in with Turtle?
16:55:27 <cgreer> gavinc: Didn't Greg already do reporting for the larger test suite?
16:55:50 <cgreer> ericp: What I don't understand is how to map features to test reports.
16:55:57 <cgreer> gavinc: Why do we have to do that?
16:56:17 <cgreer> ericp: It's a method for finding which implementations have what shortcomings.
16:56:36 <cgreer> sandro: this situation is for when a big test fails, and we don't know what that means.
16:57:05 <cgreer> ericp: So if they've failed a small test... that justifies the division between minimal test suite and the larger one.
16:57:21 <cgreer> sandro: I agree that it's good to have a distinction.
16:57:52 <cgreer> gkellogg: Two manifests would help.  In JSON-LD we decided that the tests that start at '1000' are intended to be large, hard tests.
16:58:08 <cgreer> ... for something like SPARQL, you could break it into several manifests.
16:58:38 <cgreer> ... but turtle is small, and bigger tests that fail should probably be rewritten into smaller ones.
16:59:04 <Guus> q?
16:59:20 <cgreer> ... a single test manifest is probably best here, and more practical.  We could partition the tests at some point that distinguishes between minimal tests and larger ones.
17:00:34 <Zakim> -Arnaud
17:00:45 <ericP> -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/coverage/paths minimal tests (3rd column)
17:01:08 <gkellogg> q+
17:03:03 <gavinc> ... again, does ANYONE think that Turtle implementations will NOT be complete?
17:03:30 <cgreer> sandro: all the approved test should be in the transition request.
17:03:56 <gkellogg> q-
17:04:03 <AndyS> ack me
17:04:03 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask where the minimal suite is
17:04:49 <cgreer> ericp: Do we want syntax tests that are the same as evaluation tests?
17:05:21 <cgreer> davidwood: My implemenations that had evaluation tests.. those were also treated as syntax tests.
17:05:22 <AndyS> the eval test, + and - should be syntax correct.
17:05:47 <cgreer> ericp: It sounds like all of these tests had the reference graph with them.
17:06:08 <cgreer> davidwood: Back then, no, there were a lot of positive tests, negative tests, and entailment tests.
17:06:29 <cgreer> ... And I treated the latter as syntax tests too.
17:06:29 <gavinc> s/davidwood/sandro
17:06:37 <cgreer> oops
17:07:16 <cgreer> ericp: The difference between evaluation tests and syntax is reporting.
17:08:18 <cgreer> I'll get it back from Gavin later.
17:09:18 <cgreer> ericp: Do we take all of the evaluation tests, and duplicate them as syntax tests?
17:09:30 <cgreer> ... or the opposite, eliminating redudandancies
17:09:31 <gavinc> No. We don't do that.
17:10:10 <cgreer> gkellogg: I don't see a reason to remove any tests.  eval tests are a superset of syntax tests.  If you were to fail evaluation tests that passed for syntax, what does that mean?
17:10:23 <AndyS> There should be no syntax tested in eval that is not elsewhere.  May well have got coverage wrong and would like to see people submit new tests.
17:10:28 <cgreer> gkellogg: The more ways you test something the better your confidence level is.
17:10:33 <gavinc> Yes.
17:11:15 <cgreer> ivan: We have a bunch of other things to discuss.  Testing details should be out of scope for telecon.
17:11:25 <gkellogg> agree with Ivan
17:12:21 <cgreer> ivan: The charter is expiring (an example of something we need to discuss as a WG)
17:13:05 <cgreer> Guus: If you check the open issues list, we seem to be almost done.  There are some issues in cleanup tasks.
17:13:16 <cgreer> .. We should mainly be completing the documents.
17:13:29 <AndyS> me AOB -- I have a Q about TriG and NQuads ... we are doing these aren't we?
17:13:29 <cgreer> ivan: But what about the semantic document discussions? We need to bring that back up.
17:14:46 <cgreer> I just scribed last time :)
17:14:50 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:14:52 <Zakim> -yvesr
17:14:53 <Zakim> -AndyS
17:14:55 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:14:57 <Zakim> -SteveH
17:14:57 <Zakim> -AZ
17:14:58 <Zakim> -Souri
17:15:00 <Zakim> -gkellogg
17:15:02 <Zakim> -cgreer
17:15:04 <markus> bye
17:15:05 <Zakim> -GavinC
17:15:07 <Zakim> -markus
17:15:08 <Zakim> -ericP
17:15:15 <Zakim> -pchampin
17:15:36 <ericP> Zakim, who is here?
17:15:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, +1.408.992.aadd
17:15:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see pfps, cgreer, Arnaud, markus, yvesr, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, danbri, SteveH, AndyS, trackbot, Guus, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, mischat, sandro, ericP
17:15:44 <AndyS> AndyS has left #rdf-wg
17:15:47 <ericP> Zakim, please disconnect guus
17:15:47 <Zakim> Guus is being disconnected
17:15:48 <Zakim> -Guus
17:15:51 <ericP> Zakim, please disconnect aadd
17:15:51 <Zakim> +1.408.992.aadd is being disconnected
17:15:52 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
17:15:52 <Zakim> Attendees were +31.20.598.aaaa, Arnaud, AndyS, markus, gkellogg, Guus, SteveH, AZ, +1.707.874.aacc, cgreer, yvesr, ericP, Sandro, Ivan, +1.408.992.aadd, +1.603.897.aaee, Souri,
17:15:52 <Zakim> ... PatH, GavinC, pchampin
17:19:11 <Guus> trackbot, end meeting
17:19:11 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:19:11 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
17:19:19 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:19:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/01/09-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot
17:19:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:19:20 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/09-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :
17:19:20 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ericP change the AtRisk styling to allow searching documents for the words "feature" and "risk" to find Features At Risk [1]
17:19:20 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/09-rdf-wg-irc#T16-27-09
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