08:16:12 <sandro> zakim, call Rhone_4
Sandro Hawke: zakim, call Rhone_4 ←
08:16:12 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I don't know what conference this is
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, sandro, I don't know what conference this is ←
08:16:17 <sandro> zakim, this is rdf
Sandro Hawke: zakim, this is rdf ←
08:16:17 <Zakim> sandro, I see SW_RDFWG(TPACF2F)2:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be rdf".
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, I see SW_RDFWG(TPACF2F)2:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be rdf". ←
08:16:19 <sandro> zakim, call Rhone_4
Sandro Hawke: zakim, call Rhone_4 ←
08:16:19 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I don't know what conference this is
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, sandro, I don't know what conference this is ←
08:16:26 <sandro> zakim, this will be rdf
Sandro Hawke: zakim, this will be rdf ←
08:16:26 <Zakim> ok, sandro; I see SW_RDFWG(TPACF2F)2:00AM scheduled to start 136 minutes ago
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, sandro; I see SW_RDFWG(TPACF2F)2:00AM scheduled to start 136 minutes ago ←
08:16:29 <sandro> zakim, call Rhone_4
Sandro Hawke: zakim, call Rhone_4 ←
08:16:29 <Zakim> ok, sandro; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, sandro; the call is being made ←
08:16:29 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG(TPACF2F)2:00AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG(TPACF2F)2:00AM has now started ←
08:16:32 <Zakim> +Rhone_4
Zakim IRC Bot: +Rhone_4 ←
08:17:01 <sandro> zakim, drop rhone_4
Sandro Hawke: zakim, drop rhone_4 ←
08:17:01 <Zakim> Rhone_4 is being disconnected
Zakim IRC Bot: Rhone_4 is being disconnected ←
08:17:02 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG(TPACF2F)2:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG(TPACF2F)2:00AM has ended ←
08:17:02 <Zakim> Attendees were Rhone_4
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Rhone_4 ←
08:17:39 <sandro> zakim, call Rhone_4
Sandro Hawke: zakim, call Rhone_4 ←
08:17:39 <Zakim> ok, sandro; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, sandro; the call is being made ←
08:17:40 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG(TPACF2F)2:00AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG(TPACF2F)2:00AM has now started ←
08:17:41 <Zakim> +Rhone_4
Zakim IRC Bot: +Rhone_4 ←
08:18:08 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, pointer? ←
08:18:08 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-rdf-wg-irc#T08-18-08
RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-rdf-wg-irc#T08-18-08 ←
08:18:13 <sandro> RRSAgent, make logs public
Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, make logs public ←
08:23:17 <cygri> scribe: cygri
(No events recorded for 5 minutes)
(Scribe set to Richard Cyganiak)
08:23:33 <cygri> topic: Issue review
08:24:14 <cygri> guus: Let's go through them in order. Goal is just to do a quick assessment, not necessarily to resolve them.
Guus Schreiber: Let's go through them in order. Goal is just to do a quick assessment, not necessarily to resolve them. ←
08:25:10 <cygri> subtopic: ISSUE-3
08:25:43 <cygri> ISSUE-3?
08:25:43 <trackbot> ISSUE-3 -- Between us, we need to study the feedback we got via http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-comments/ on the previous round of specs (and errata) -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-3 -- Between us, we need to study the feedback we got via http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-comments/ on the previous round of specs (and errata) -- open ←
08:25:43 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/3
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/3 ←
08:25:46 <cygri> ACTION-102?
08:25:46 <trackbot> ACTION-102 -- David Wood to ask Guus to find a student to do the work of ISSUE-3 -- due 2011-10-20 -- CLOSED
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-102 -- David Wood to ask Guus to find a student to do the work of ISSUE-3 -- due 2011-10-20 -- CLOSED ←
08:25:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/102
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/102 ←
08:26:14 <cygri> guus: I have to review how many comments there are
Guus Schreiber: I have to review how many comments there are ←
08:27:06 <cygri> ivan: The role of the errata document is that if there's consensus on the comments list that something is indeed an error, it gets put into the errata document.
Ivan Herman: The role of the errata document is that if there's consensus on the comments list that something is indeed an error, it gets put into the errata document. ←
08:27:20 <cygri> sandro: That may not have been done here as the staff contacts left etc
Sandro Hawke: That may not have been done here as the staff contacts left etc ←
08:27:48 <cygri> sandro: This starts with February 2004
Sandro Hawke: This starts with February 2004 ←
08:28:00 <cygri> davidwood: Looks like at least a couple hundred of emails
David Wood: Looks like at least a couple hundred of emails ←
08:29:15 <cygri> guest: Larry Masinter
08:29:36 <cygri> [discussion of badge colors]
[discussion of badge colors] ←
08:30:24 <cygri> topic: rdf:Seq and implications for XMP
08:30:37 <cygri> davidwood: We resolved yesterday to mark rdf:Seq as archaic
David Wood: We resolved yesterday to mark rdf:Seq as archaic ←
08:31:10 <cygri> ... there's wide implementation in particular from Adobe in XMP
... there's wide implementation in particular from Adobe in XMP ←
08:31:36 <cygri> Larry Masinter: There are thousands of people in Adobe. That said...
Larry Masinter: There are thousands of people in Adobe. That said... ←
08:31:56 <cygri> ... XMP has its own internal data model that is syntactically serialized as RDF/XML.
... XMP has its own internal data model that is syntactically serialized as RDF/XML. ←
08:32:12 <cygri> ... It's also no longer an Adobe specification, it's now an ISO standard.
... It's also no longer an Adobe specification, it's now an ISO standard. ←
08:32:27 <Zakim> +Gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: +Gavinc ←
08:32:58 <cygri> ivan: It's certainly true that the latest version of Photoshop uses rdf:Seq.
Ivan Herman: It's certainly true that the latest version of Photoshop uses rdf:Seq. ←
08:33:16 <davidwood> Good morning, GavinC. We are speaking with Larry Masinger (TAG) about Adobe XMP and rdf:Seq. We will turn onto TriG next.
David Wood: Good morning, GavinC. We are speaking with Larry Masinger (TAG) about Adobe XMP and rdf:Seq. We will turn onto TriG next. ←
08:33:17 <cygri> Larry Masinter: Why bother declaring something that is widely deployed as obsolete?
Larry Masinter: Why bother declaring something that is widely deployed as obsolete? ←
08:33:36 <cygri> ericP: The goal is to steer new deployments away from rdf:Seq.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: The goal is to steer new deployments away from rdf:Seq. ←
08:33:48 <cygri> Larry Masinter: What are you trying to accomplish?
Larry Masinter: What are you trying to accomplish? ←
08:34:06 <cygri> sandro: RDF has multiple ways of expressing sequence, none of which is very well supported.
Sandro Hawke: RDF has multiple ways of expressing sequence, none of which is very well supported. ←
08:34:30 <cygri> ... There's some agreement that rdf:Seq is the least best one
... There's some agreement that rdf:Seq is the least best one ←
08:35:01 <cygri> Larry Masinter: HTML has several ways of drawing things. It's not clear that there's a design pattern that there should only be one way of doing any particular thing.
Larry Masinter: HTML has several ways of drawing things. It's not clear that there's a design pattern that there should only be one way of doing any particular thing. ←
08:35:28 <cygri> davidwood: This is a weak form of deprecation.
David Wood: This is a weak form of deprecation. ←
08:35:56 <cygri> Larry Masinter: There's a problem when standards committees try to constrain future standards committees.
Larry Masinter: There's a problem when standards committees try to constrain future standards committees. ←
08:36:10 <cygri> [crosstalk]
[crosstalk] ←
08:36:14 <gavinc> +q
Gavin Carothers: +q ←
08:36:29 <davidwood> ack gavinc
David Wood: ack gavinc ←
08:36:47 <cygri> gavinc: I'm not sure I agree with sandro's characterization that we're not telling people what to do.
Gavin Carothers: I'm not sure I agree with sandro's characterization that we're not telling people what to do. ←
08:37:06 <cygri> ... I think we resolved that people should use rdf:List instead of containers
... I think we resolved that people should use rdf:List instead of containers ←
08:37:26 <cygri> davidwood: I believe we have a resolution that hasn't made it into our documents.
David Wood: I believe we have a resolution that hasn't made it into our documents. ←
08:37:30 <sandro> I hope your memory is better than mine on that, Gavin. I certainly agree with that resolution.
Sandro Hawke: I hope your memory is better than mine on that, Gavin. I certainly agree with that resolution. ←
08:38:05 <cygri> Larry Masinter: XMP is in the PDF standard. PDF is used in various governments, etc.
Larry Masinter: XMP is in the PDF standard. PDF is used in various governments, etc. ←
08:38:17 <cygri> ... I'm not sure what the improvement is that you're trying to gain.
... I'm not sure what the improvement is that you're trying to gain. ←
08:38:38 <cygri> sandro: People in the know are aware they shouldn't use rdf:Seq
Sandro Hawke: People in the know are aware they shouldn't use rdf:Seq ←
08:38:40 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
08:38:42 <cygri> q+
q+ ←
08:38:58 <cygri> Larry Masinter: I'm not in the know. Why?
Larry Masinter: I'm not in the know. Why? ←
08:39:13 <cygri> ericP: curried predicates, out of favour, etc.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: curried predicates, out of favour, etc. ←
08:39:15 <cygri> q?
q? ←
08:39:42 <gavinc> The issue is rdf:_1, rdf_*
Gavin Carothers: The issue is rdf:_1, rdf_* ←
08:40:16 <cygri> [eric's WPM exceed scribe capabilities]
[eric's WPM exceed scribe capabilities] ←
08:40:42 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
08:40:43 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
08:40:59 <sandro> I hear Larry saying we can and should support both. :-(
Sandro Hawke: I hear Larry saying we can and should support both. :-( ←
08:41:38 <cygri> ivan: We sohuldn't repeat yesterday's discussion. We asked Larry what we wanted to ask.
Ivan Herman: We sohuldn't repeat yesterday's discussion. We asked Larry what we wanted to ask. ←
08:41:50 <cygri> ericP: But he didn't say what we wanted to hear.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: But he didn't say what we wanted to hear. ←
08:42:02 <cygri> Larry Masinter: I'm not speaking for Adobe obviously.
Larry Masinter: I'm not speaking for Adobe obviously. ←
08:42:15 <cygri> ... I will ask the ISO committee on their opinion.
... I would ask the ISO committee on their opinion. ←
08:42:25 <sandro> s/will/would/
08:42:48 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
08:42:50 <cygri> Larry Masinter: It's ISO 16684 (?)
Larry Masinter: It's ISO 16684 (?) ←
08:43:05 <Arnaud> scribe: Arnaud
(Scribe set to Arnaud Le Hors)
08:44:03 <Arnaud> cygri: challenge the assertion that people in the know know we shouldn't use seq
Richard Cyganiak: challenge the assertion that people in the know know we shouldn't use seq ←
08:44:21 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
08:44:31 <cygri> scribe: cygri
(Scribe set to Richard Cyganiak)
08:44:43 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-10-29#resolution_2
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-10-29#resolution_2 ←
08:44:47 <cygri> davidwood: Where does this leave our resolution from yesterday?
David Wood: Where does this leave our resolution from yesterday? ←
08:45:02 <cygri> sandro: I hear Larry's advise that we should fully support rdf:Seq.
Sandro Hawke: I hear Larry's advise that we should fully support rdf:Seq. ←
08:45:16 <cygri> davidwood: Can you clarify whom you speak for?
David Wood: Can you clarify whom you speak for? ←
08:45:36 <cygri> Larry Masinter: Personal opinion. Informed by design principles.
Larry Masinter: Personal opinion. Informed by design principles. ←
08:45:50 <ericP> q?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q? ←
08:45:51 <cygri> ... Deprecating something that's used successfully seems foolish.
... Deprecating something that's used successfully seems foolish. ←
08:46:17 <cygri> ... The rationale for deprecating it is not clear.
... The rationale for deprecating it is not clear. ←
08:46:57 <yvesr> q+
Yves Raimond: q+ ←
08:46:59 <cygri> ... Photoshop and Acrobat are more widely deployed than the RDF tools you're concerned about.
... Photoshop and Acrobat are more widely deployed than the RDF tools you're concerned about. ←
08:47:37 <cygri> ... The rationale you gave is that tools you're aware of have trouble with rdf:Seq. There are many other tools with more market share that use it.
... The rationale you gave is that tools you're aware of have trouble with rdf:Seq. There are many other tools with more market share that use it. ←
08:48:07 <cygri> davidwood: Purpose of RDF is interoperability. Tools that use it only internally as configuration are different.
David Wood: Purpose of RDF is interoperability. Tools that use it only internally as configuration are different. ←
08:48:33 <cygri> ... The places where we see difficulties with rdf:Seq is in the possibly smaller market that is concerned with interoperability
... The places where we see difficulties with rdf:Seq is in the possibly smaller market that is concerned with interoperability ←
08:49:11 <cygri> Larry Masinter: The current RDF specifications passed the exit criteria, so do they not have interoperable implementations?
Larry Masinter: The current RDF specifications passed the exit criteria, so do they not have interoperable implementations? ←
08:49:43 <cygri> davidwood: R&D was done in the 2002-2004 WG. Widely criticized for that.
David Wood: R&D was done in the 2002-2004 WG. Widely criticized for that. ←
08:50:07 <cygri> sandro: I'd like to clarify. rdf:Seq was in the 1999 spec already.
Sandro Hawke: I'd like to clarify. rdf:Seq was in the 1999 spec already. ←
08:50:28 <cygri> ... So couldn't be removed due to charter
... So couldn't be removed due to charter ←
08:50:33 <davidwood> ack yvesr
David Wood: ack yvesr ←
08:50:37 <cygri> Larry Masinter: How is now different from 2004?
Larry Masinter: How is now different from 2004? ←
08:50:41 <yvesr> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Extension_Versioning,_Update_and_Compatibility
Yves Raimond: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Extension_Versioning,_Update_and_Compatibility ←
08:50:48 <cygri> sandro: It was a wrong decision back then.
Sandro Hawke: It was a wrong decision back then. ←
08:51:07 <cygri> yves: [?] uses rdf:Seq to describe sequences of updates.
Yves Raimond: Mozilla Gecko uses rdf:Seq to describe sequences of updates. ←
08:51:07 <sandro> sandro: We've been *silently* deprecating Seq for 12 years now. let's stop doing that, at least.
Sandro Hawke: We've been *silently* deprecating Seq for 12 years now. let's stop doing that, at least. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
08:51:15 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
08:51:17 <yvesr> s/[?]/Mozilla Gecko
08:51:19 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
08:51:34 <cygri> ericP: My guess is that we're not going to deprecate rdf:Seq.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: My guess is that we're not going to deprecate rdf:Seq. ←
08:51:42 <cygri> ... Give up and move on.
... Give up and move on. ←
08:52:08 <cygri> sandro: I'm not comfortable with silently deprecating rdf:Seq. I want to be wholeheartedly in favour of everything in the specification. Not the case for rdf:Seq.
Sandro Hawke: I'm not comfortable with silently deprecating rdf:Seq. I want to be wholeheartedly in favour of everything in the specification. Not the case for rdf:Seq. ←
08:52:26 <cygri> ... If we could improve support...
... If we could improve support... ←
08:52:27 <ivan> ack sandro
Ivan Herman: ack sandro ←
08:52:31 <gavinc> indeed, support the collection types in Turtle :\
Gavin Carothers: indeed, support the collection types in Turtle :\ ←
08:52:32 <cygri> ... e.g., syntax in Turtle
... e.g., syntax in Turtle ←
08:52:42 <cygri> davidwood: We won't do that design work today.
David Wood: We won't do that design work today. ←
08:52:57 <cygri> ... We have the answer from Larry that we needed. Thank you Larry!
... We have the answer from Larry that we needed. Thank you Larry! ←
08:53:06 <cygri> Larry Masinter: You have my personal opinion.
Larry Masinter: You have my personal opinion. ←
08:53:11 <cygri> davidwood: Yes.
David Wood: Yes. ←
08:53:32 <cygri> ivan: We have a resolution from yesterday. Do we want to revisit that resolution?
Ivan Herman: We have a resolution from yesterday. Do we want to revisit that resolution? ←
08:53:45 <davidwood> PROPOSAL: Hold the resolution at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-10-29#resolution_2 in abeyance pending further study.
PROPOSED: Hold the resolution at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-10-29#resolution_2 in abeyance pending further study. ←
08:53:52 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
08:54:16 <cygri> sandro: That means re-opening ISSUE-77.
Sandro Hawke: That means re-opening ISSUE-77. ←
08:54:28 <sandro> +1 sadly
Sandro Hawke: +1 sadly ←
08:54:33 <gavinc> +1
Gavin Carothers: +1 ←
08:54:35 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
08:54:37 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
08:54:53 <cygri> Arnaud: Why change this now?
Arnaud Le Hors: Why change this now? ←
08:55:01 <cygri> ±0
±0 ←
08:55:15 <cygri> davidwood: New information, need to reopen the issue
David Wood: New information, need to reopen the issue ←
08:55:35 <AZ> 0
08:55:48 <FabGandon> 0
Fabien Gandon: 0 ←
08:55:49 <Arnaud> -0
Arnaud Le Hors: -0 ←
08:56:05 <davidwood> RESOLVED: Hold the resolution at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-10-29#resolution_2 in abeyance pending further study.
RESOLVED: Hold the resolution at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-10-29#resolution_2 in abeyance pending further study. ←
08:56:11 <davidwood> ISSUE-77.
08:56:19 <cygri> davidwood: I will re-open ISSUE-77 with these comments.
David Wood: I will re-open ISSUE-77 with these comments. ←
08:56:22 <davidwood> ISSUE-77 reopened.
David Wood: ISSUE-77 reopened. ←
08:56:25 <sandro> gavinc, are you with us for the day, or only a little while?
Sandro Hawke: gavinc, are you with us for the day, or only a little while? ←
08:56:36 <gavinc> 1.56 am :D
Gavin Carothers: 1.56 am :D ←
08:56:38 <cygri> topic: TriG
08:56:57 <sandro> that doesn't answer my question, actually, gavinc
Sandro Hawke: that doesn't answer my question, actually, gavinc ←
08:56:59 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
08:57:37 <cygri> gavinc: There is an editor's draft of TriG. It is old, doesn't reflect current "consensus" on graphs.
Gavin Carothers: There is an editor's draft of TriG. It is old, doesn't reflect current "consensus" on graphs. ←
08:57:55 <cygri> ... Most of the document will have to change based on decisions made around graphs.
... Most of the document will have to change based on decisions made around graphs. ←
08:58:07 <cygri> ... Most edge cases change.
... Most edge cases change. ←
08:58:39 <cygri> ... Since almost all of the interesting design decisions change between TriG-as-deployed and the new standard, do we want to rename it?
... Since almost all of the interesting design decisions change between TriG-as-deployed and the new standard, do we want to rename it? ←
08:58:40 <gavinc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/trig/index.html#
Gavin Carothers: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/trig/index.html# ←
08:58:47 <cygri> davidwood: I believe we have a resolution to keep the name.
David Wood: I believe we have a resolution to keep the name. ←
08:59:23 <cygri> gavinc: Some of us supported the resolution on the condition that the language mostly stays like TriG-as-deployed. This doesn't seem to be the case.
Gavin Carothers: Some of us supported the resolution on the condition that the language mostly stays like TriG-as-deployed. This doesn't seem to be the case. ←
08:59:34 <cygri> sandro: What's the biggest change?
Sandro Hawke: What's the biggest change? ←
09:00:03 <cygri> gavinc: When I repeat the graph label multiple times, it is not an error, but the union
Gavin Carothers: When I repeat the graph label multiple times, it is not an error, but the union ←
09:00:24 <cygri> ericP: What does the old draft say?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: What does the old draft say? ←
09:00:30 <cygri> gavinc: It's an error.
Gavin Carothers: It's an error. ←
09:00:38 <cygri> sandro: It doesn't invalidate old data.
Sandro Hawke: It doesn't invalidate old data. ←
09:00:57 <cygri> ... I'm pretty sure Anzo supports it already.
... I'm pretty sure Anzo supports it already. ←
09:01:03 <cygri> [discussion of = sign]
[discussion of = sign] ←
09:01:20 <cygri> gavinc: Trailing periods are now removed.
Gavin Carothers: Trailing periods are now removed. ←
09:01:23 <cygri> q+
q+ ←
09:01:34 <cygri> sandro: Strikes me as trivial.
Sandro Hawke: Strikes me as trivial. ←
09:01:50 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
09:02:12 <ericP> cygri: sandro says that the changes are trivial
Richard Cyganiak: sandro says that the changes are trivial [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
09:02:27 <ericP> ... they may be trivial to human eyes, but not to parsers
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... they may be trivial to human eyes, but not to parsers ←
09:02:32 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
09:02:35 <gavinc> +q
Gavin Carothers: +q ←
09:02:45 <ericP> ... the question is "does it break the language?"
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... the question is "does it break the language?" ←
09:02:49 <davidwood> RESOLVED We will call a recommended dataset syntax "TriG", but informally and in the media type, "trig".
David Wood: RESOLVED We will call a recommended dataset syntax "TriG", but informally and in the media type, "trig". ←
09:02:51 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-10-03#resolution_5
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-10-03#resolution_5 ←
09:03:05 <ericP> sandro: i think it doesn't break it in most cases, less than the ways in which we broke Turtle
Sandro Hawke: i think it doesn't break it in most cases, less than the ways in which we broke Turtle [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
09:03:29 <cygri> gavinc: All of the examples provided in the old spec are no longer TriG documents.
Gavin Carothers: All of the examples provided in the old spec are no longer TriG documents. ←
09:03:48 <ericP> -> http://www4.wiwiss.fu-berlin.de/bizer/TriG/Spec/ the DERI Trig spec of which we speak
Eric Prud'hommeaux: -> http://www4.wiwiss.fu-berlin.de/bizer/TriG/Spec/ the DERI Trig spec of which we speak ←
09:04:12 <cygri> davidwood: We have a resolution on this.
David Wood: We have a resolution on this. ←
09:04:26 <cygri> ... Many were not in favour, but the resolution passed.
... Many were not in favour, but the resolution passed. ←
09:04:42 <cygri> ... Gavin, issues related not to naming?
... Gavin, issues related not to naming? ←
09:05:03 <cygri> q+
q+ ←
09:05:06 <ericP> i believe that all the examples in the fu-berlin spec are still Trig by our definition
Eric Prud'hommeaux: i believe that all the examples in the fu-berlin spec are still Trig by our definition ←
09:05:10 <ivan> ack gavinc
Ivan Herman: ack gavinc ←
09:05:11 <davidwood> ack gavinc
David Wood: ack gavinc ←
09:05:14 <cygri> gavinc: It is still unclear to me how to write the section that introduces named graphs.
Gavin Carothers: It is still unclear to me how to write the section that introduces named graphs. ←
09:05:28 <cygri> ... This makes it challenging to write what a graph label is.
... This makes it challenging to write what a graph label is. ←
09:05:30 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
09:05:38 <cygri> davidwood: Not sure I follow.
David Wood: Not sure I follow. ←
09:05:48 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
09:06:10 <ericP> cygri: I don't see this prob 'cause the Abstract Syntax defines an RDF Dataset
Richard Cyganiak: I don't see this prob 'cause the Abstract Syntax defines an RDF Dataset [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
09:06:23 <sandro> +1 cygri TriG just needs to say it's serializing a Dataset.
Sandro Hawke: +1 cygri TriG just needs to say it's serializing a Dataset. ←
09:06:26 <ericP> ... all the Trig doc must do is say "we serialize one of those."
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... all the Trig doc must do is say "we serialize one of those." ←
09:06:39 <ivan> +1 cygri
Ivan Herman: +1 cygri ←
09:07:01 <ericP> ... there could be challenges in the motivating text (why you would want to use this), but that text is a minor point
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... there could be challenges in the motivating text (why you would want to use this), but that text is a minor point ←
09:07:18 <gavinc> "A graph statement pairs an IRI with a RDF Graph"
Gavin Carothers: "A graph statement pairs an IRI with a RDF Graph" ←
09:07:20 <cygri> gavinc: I guess then there's one sentence describing it that matches RDF Concepts.
Gavin Carothers: I guess then there's one sentence describing it that matches RDF Concepts. ←
09:07:31 <cygri> ... Makes for a short, not very helpful document. But maybe that's all we can do.
... Makes for a short, not very helpful document. But maybe that's all we can do. ←
09:07:50 <cygri> ... I think the grammar is in reasonable shape as it's based on Turtle.
... I think the grammar is in reasonable shape as it's based on Turtle. ←
09:08:19 <cygri> ... I assume the Turtle Feature-At-Risk for BASE/PREFIX applies.
... I assume the Turtle Feature-At-Risk for BASE/PREFIX applies. ←
09:08:53 <cygri> ... Do we need to repeat the stuff from Turtle or just refer to it?
... Do we need to repeat the stuff from Turtle or just refer to it? ←
09:08:57 <cygri> q+
q+ ←
09:08:58 <sandro> just reference turtle grammar
Sandro Hawke: just reference turtle grammar ←
09:09:21 <cygri> ericP: I'm a big fan of being able to copy and paste stuff
Eric Prud'hommeaux: I'm a big fan of being able to copy and paste stuff ←
09:09:23 <yvesr> q+ to ask about default graph (sorry)
Yves Raimond: q+ to ask about default graph (sorry) ←
09:09:35 <cygri> gavinc: Grammar will have to be repeated, but the rest maybe not.
Gavin Carothers: Grammar will have to be repeated, but the rest maybe not. ←
09:09:44 <cygri> q-
q- ←
09:09:58 <cygri> davidwood: It seems like some of the October resolutions are not yet fully reflected.
David Wood: It seems like some of the October resolutions are not yet fully reflected. ←
09:10:04 <cygri> ... in the grammar.
... in the grammar. ←
09:10:06 <cygri> gavinc: That's correct
Gavin Carothers: That's correct ←
09:10:33 <sandro> q+ to say please provide dates on editor's drafts
Sandro Hawke: q+ to say please provide dates on editor's drafts ←
09:10:43 <cygri> [discussion of grammar minutiae]
[discussion of grammar minutiae] ←
09:11:14 <sandro> q+ sandro2 to ask why repeat grammar? it's not you can actually cut/paste it.
Sandro Hawke: q+ sandro2 to ask why repeat grammar? it's not you can actually cut/paste it. ←
09:11:50 <davidwood> ack yvesr
David Wood: ack yvesr ←
09:11:50 <Zakim> yvesr, you wanted to ask about default graph (sorry)
Zakim IRC Bot: yvesr, you wanted to ask about default graph (sorry) ←
09:12:05 <ericP> q+ yvesr
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ yvesr ←
09:12:08 <davidwood> ack sandro
David Wood: ack sandro ←
09:12:08 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to say please provide dates on editor's drafts
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to say please provide dates on editor's drafts ←
09:12:24 <cygri> q+
q+ ←
09:12:49 <gavinc> yeah, no not changing the date every time I edit the document
Gavin Carothers: yeah, no not changing the date every time I edit the document ←
09:13:41 <davidwood> ack sandro2
David Wood: ack sandro2 ←
09:13:41 <Zakim> sandro2, you wanted to ask why repeat grammar? it's not you can actually cut/paste it.
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro2, you wanted to ask why repeat grammar? it's not you can actually cut/paste it. ←
09:14:08 <cygri> cygri: [doesn't want to spend time making sure the date on ED is correct]
Richard Cyganiak: [doesn't want to spend time making sure the date on ED is correct] ←
09:14:21 <cygri> sandro: How about putting a clearly non-date there, January 99 or something
Sandro Hawke: How about putting a clearly non-date there, January 99 or something ←
09:14:28 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
09:14:31 <cygri> ... Regarding grammar, copy-paste doesn't work
... Regarding grammar, copy-paste doesn't work ←
09:14:39 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me ←
09:14:39 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
09:14:55 <davidwood> AndyS, we are speaking about TriG grammar.
David Wood: AndyS, we are speaking about TriG grammar. ←
09:15:00 <cygri> gavinc: I'll probably repeat them and make clear it's same as the Turtle grammar
Gavin Carothers: I'll probably repeat them and make clear it's same as the Turtle grammar ←
09:15:07 <cygri> ivan: In my view, editor's pregorative
Ivan Herman: In my view, editor's pregorative ←
09:15:28 <cygri> ericP: I like to copy-and-paste
Eric Prud'hommeaux: I like to copy-and-paste ←
09:15:36 <cygri> ... I also like to click through in an HTML spec
... I also like to click through in an HTML spec ←
09:15:44 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
09:15:44 <cygri> sandro: It can click you over to the Turtle spec.
Sandro Hawke: It can click you over to the Turtle spec. ←
09:15:55 <cygri> ack me
ack me ←
09:16:18 <davidwood> ack yvesr
David Wood: ack yvesr ←
09:16:23 <cygri> ericP: Special markings on productions imported from other specs are good
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Special markings on productions imported from other specs are good ←
09:16:42 <cygri> yvesr: I sent an email last week about the default graph in TriG.
Yves Raimond: I sent an email last week about the default graph in TriG. ←
09:16:53 <cygri> q+
q+ ←
09:17:03 <sandro> I rather like the idea of the TriG spec being 1 page. :-) (It can be if it just refs turtle)
Sandro Hawke: I rather like the idea of the TriG spec being 1 page. :-) (It can be if it just refs turtle) ←
09:17:10 <cygri> ... If you load a TriG file into a triple store and write it out again, you're not sure it comes out the same
... If you load a TriG file into a triple store and write it out again, you're not sure it comes out the same ←
09:17:29 <cygri> ... So what's the point of the default graph.
... So what's the point of the default graph. ←
09:17:41 <davidwood> Yves' message regarding default graphs in Trig: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Oct/0212.html
David Wood: Yves' message regarding default graphs in Trig: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Oct/0212.html ←
09:17:41 <AndyS> ?? it does in Jena.
Andy Seaborne: ?? it does in Jena. ←
09:18:34 <cygri> ivan: There are default graphs in SPARQL. Therefore, it should be in TriG. TriG does not introduce any new concept, and shouldn't be silent on any concept that's in the data model.
Ivan Herman: There are default graphs in SPARQL. Therefore, it should be in TriG. TriG does not introduce any new concept, and shouldn't be silent on any concept that's in the data model. ←
09:18:38 <pchampin> q+
09:18:55 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
09:19:19 <ericP> cygri: the data model of a SPARQL store is an RDF data set
Richard Cyganiak: the data model of a SPARQL store is an RDF data set [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
09:19:36 <ericP> ... the data model of Trig is also an RDF data set
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... the data model of Trig is also an RDF data set ←
09:19:46 <pchampin> q-
09:20:04 <ericP> ... the Trig doc currently doesn't tell you how to load a Trig doc into the SPARQL store
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... the Trig doc currently doesn't tell you how to load a Trig doc into the SPARQL store ←
09:20:34 <pchampin> q+
09:20:35 <ericP> ... there can be a middle step between ingesting Trig and writing to the SPARQL store where the impl can do what it wants
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... there can be a middle step between ingesting Trig and writing to the SPARQL store where the impl can do what it wants ←
09:21:06 <ericP> ... the injestion is not a "restore from trig file", but more "add trig file to store"
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... the injestion is not a "restore from trig file", but more "add trig file to store" ←
09:21:19 <cygri> yvesr: I still think that's a confusing behaviour in TriG
Yves Raimond: I still think that's a confusing behaviour in TriG ←
09:21:30 <davidwood> ack pchampin
David Wood: ack pchampin ←
09:21:37 <ericP> yvesr: i think that [default graphs] are the most difficult feature of Trig
Yves Raimond: i think that [default graphs] are the most difficult feature of Trig [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
09:21:47 <cygri> ... Makes it hard to explain triple store behaviour, and explain how to use the default graph
... Makes it hard to explain triple store behaviour, and explain how to use the default graph ←
09:22:15 <cygri> pchampin: Let me try to rephrase. A TriG file represents a dataset. There's a correct way to parse a TriG file into a dataset.
Pierre-Antoine Champin: Let me try to rephrase. A TriG file represents a dataset. There's a correct way to parse a TriG file into a dataset. ←
09:22:53 <cygri> ... But what's less well defined is how to integrate a dataset into a graph store.
... But what's less well defined is how to integrate a dataset into a graph store. ←
09:23:13 <cygri> ... If we validate a TriG parser, it has to be clear what graphs we end up with
... If we validate a TriG parser, it has to be clear what graphs we end up with ←
09:23:31 <cygri> ... But when a graph store digests a dataset, things can happen.
... But when a graph store digests a dataset, things can happen. ←
09:23:47 <cygri> ... Emphasizing this difference may make it less confusing
... Emphasizing this difference may make it less confusing ←
09:24:13 <cygri> AndyS: There was a comment that if you read something in and write it out again, you don't get the same thing.
Andy Seaborne: There was a comment that if you read something in and write it out again, you don't get the same thing. ←
09:24:17 <cygri> q+
q+ ←
09:24:43 <cygri> q-
q- ←
09:24:54 <yvesr> q+
Yves Raimond: q+ ←
09:24:57 <cygri> ... We don't know what the right model of operation is for some of these things
... We don't know what the right model of operation is for some of these things ←
09:25:15 <cygri> ... So banning some features because of store behaviour is risky.
... So banning some features because of store behaviour is risky. ←
09:25:58 <cygri> yvesr: I feel that the SPARQL definition of dataset came from implementations. We imported that as the general RDF dataset model.
Yves Raimond: I feel that the SPARQL definition of dataset came from implementations. We imported that as the general RDF dataset model. ←
09:26:07 <cygri> ... So it started with implementations
... So it started with implementations ←
09:26:11 <davidwood> ack yvesr
David Wood: ack yvesr ←
09:26:50 <cygri> davidwood: Gavin, has your view changed based on this dicsussion?
David Wood: Gavin, has your view changed based on this dicsussion? ←
09:26:55 <cygri> gavinc: No.
Gavin Carothers: No. ←
09:27:24 <cygri> ivan: We have little choice. TriG is just a syntax. If default graph in the model, it has to be in the syntax.
Ivan Herman: We have little choice. TriG is just a syntax. If default graph in the model, it has to be in the syntax. ←
09:28:11 <cygri> davidwood: Our primary concern is to get this document out the door. How will we turn this into an FPWD and start the process?
David Wood: Our primary concern is to get this document out the door. How will we turn this into an FPWD and start the process? ←
09:28:28 <cygri> gavinc: We should be ready for FPWD quite soon.
Gavin Carothers: We should be ready for FPWD quite soon. ←
09:28:50 <cygri> ... My request to the WG: Examples for use of TriG would be helpful.
... My request to the WG: Examples for use of TriG would be helpful. ←
09:29:08 <cygri> ... Preferably small ones. Those from the old spec are not great, and all I have are 6GB.
... Preferably small ones. Those from the old spec are not great, and all I have are 6GB. ←
09:30:02 <cygri> [discussion of grammar minutiae]
[discussion of grammar minutiae] ←
09:31:15 <cygri> [scribe is lost]
[scribe is lost] ←
09:31:40 <cygri> [discussion of TriG examples]
[discussion of TriG examples] ←
09:31:52 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
09:31:52 <sandro> gavinc: The examples in the current ED aren't right. We can no longer say G1 refers to a graph, etc
Gavin Carothers: The examples in the current ED aren't right. We can no longer say G1 refers to a graph, etc [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
09:32:02 <cygri> q+
q+ ←
09:32:05 <sandro> sandro: That text isn't right any more, but the trig is okay
Sandro Hawke: That text isn't right any more, but the trig is okay [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
09:32:54 <ericP> cygri: one obvious example would be something which shows versioning
Richard Cyganiak: one obvious example would be something which shows versioning [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
09:32:57 <AZ> examples of trig files: https://www.google.com/search?q=prefix+filetype%3Atrig
Antoine Zimmermann: examples of trig files: https://www.google.com/search?q=prefix+filetype%3Atrig ←
09:33:03 <ericP> ... a provenance example would be useful
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... a provenance example would be useful ←
09:33:20 <AZ> and a provenance example: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-33-a-simpler-hasProvenanceIn/rdf/eg-33-a-simpler-hasProvenanceIn.trig
Antoine Zimmermann: and a provenance example: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-33-a-simpler-hasProvenanceIn/rdf/eg-33-a-simpler-hasProvenanceIn.trig ←
09:33:25 <ericP> ... the PROV WG has an examplw which shows how DC maps to PROV
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... the PROV WG has an examplw which shows how DC maps to PROV ←
09:33:36 <ericP> ... ask Tim Libo?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... ask Tim Libo? ←
09:33:46 <ericP> ivan: there's also the PROV Primer
Ivan Herman: there's also the PROV Primer [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
09:34:00 <ericP> ... should be easy to tweak to use named graphs
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... should be easy to tweak to use named graphs ←
09:34:10 <gavinc> uh, az that isn't trig :(
Gavin Carothers: uh, az that isn't trig :( ←
09:34:23 <ericP> ... contact Paul Gross quickly; there's a PROV F2F at MIT in a week
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ... contact Paul Groth quickly; there's a PROV F2F at MIT in a week ←
09:34:43 <cygri> s/Gross/Groth/
09:35:27 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
09:35:29 <cygri> davidwood: I'll send a message to Paul
David Wood: I'll send a message to Paul ←
09:35:34 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
09:35:45 <cygri> ivan: I can translate an example to TriG
Ivan Herman: I can translate an example to TriG ←
09:36:18 <cygri> davidwood: Assuming we can get an example out of ivan, when can you provide doc for review
David Wood: Assuming we can get an example out of ivan, when can you provide doc for review ←
09:36:23 <cygri> gavinc: November 15
Gavin Carothers: November 15 ←
09:36:46 <cygri> ivan: We should not publish this before next RDF Concepts
Ivan Herman: We should not publish this before next RDF Concepts ←
09:36:51 <davidwood> action: davidwood to contact Paul Groth re provenance example for TriG (before the prov wg ftf)
ACTION: davidwood to contact Paul Groth re provenance example for TriG (before the prov wg ftf) ←
09:36:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-200 - Contact Paul Groth re provenance example for TriG (before the prov wg ftf) [on David Wood - due 2012-11-06].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-200 - Contact Paul Groth re provenance example for TriG (before the prov wg ftf) [on David Wood - due 2012-11-06]. ←
09:37:19 <cygri> davidwood: So we'll start the WG review on Nov 15
David Wood: So we'll start the WG review on Nov 15 ←
09:37:21 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
09:37:43 <cygri> [nitpicking about examples]
[nitpicking about examples] ←
09:38:25 <sandro> sandro: We need to tell Prov about our modified TriG so they can update their examples.
Sandro Hawke: We need to tell Prov about our modified TriG so they can update their examples. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
09:38:31 <cygri> ivan: So at the PROV F2F I can tell them that they can use TriG and refer to the upcoming FPWD
Ivan Herman: So at the PROV F2F I can tell them that they can use TriG and refer to the upcoming FPWD ←
09:38:41 <ericP> q+ to clarify the changes from the old Trig
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to clarify the changes from the old Trig ←
09:38:42 <cygri> ... they made every effort to remove anything that looks like TriG from the documents
... they made every effort to remove anything that looks like TriG from the documents ←
09:38:47 <cygri> ... Now they can put it back.
... Now they can put it back. ←
09:39:03 <cygri> sandro: When is their next round of publications?
Sandro Hawke: When is their next round of publications? ←
09:39:11 <cygri> ivan: Hope to vote for CR next week.
Ivan Herman: Hope to vote for CR next week. ←
09:39:21 <cygri> sandro: Won't have FPWD by then
Sandro Hawke: Won't have FPWD by then ←
09:39:33 <cygri> ivan: Can they refer to an ED?
Ivan Herman: Can they refer to an ED? ←
09:39:47 <cygri> sandro: No, not a stable URI.
Sandro Hawke: No, not a stable URI. ←
09:40:22 <sandro> sandro: well, okay, I guess, sure.
Sandro Hawke: well, okay, I guess, sure. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
09:40:24 <cygri> davidwood: It's a CR. We can put an ED reference there and make clear we'll update it.
David Wood: It's a CR. We can put an ED reference there and make clear we'll update it. ←
09:40:30 <cygri> topic: [COFFEE BREAK]
09:40:36 <gavinc> 25 minutes?
Gavin Carothers: 25 minutes? ←
09:40:42 <cygri> davidwood: break for 25 minutes
David Wood: break for 25 minutes ←
09:40:47 <davidwood> yes
David Wood: yes ←
09:45:58 <Zakim> -AndyS
(No events recorded for 5 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
09:47:33 <Zakim> -Gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: -Gavinc ←
09:47:38 <gavinc> Extra heads removed from our hg
Gavin Carothers: Extra heads removed from our hg ←
09:57:40 <cygri> RRSAgent, make logs public
(No events recorded for 10 minutes)
RRSAgent, make logs public ←
10:03:14 <Zakim> +Gavinc
(No events recorded for 5 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: +Gavinc ←
10:03:41 <gavinc> Shinny grammar http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/trig/index.html#sec-grammar
Gavin Carothers: Shinny grammar http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/trig/index.html#sec-grammar ←
10:09:40 <gavinc> did I make sandro happy? ;)
(No events recorded for 5 minutes)
Gavin Carothers: did I make sandro happy? ;) ←
10:10:56 <gavinc> Please DON'T update it each time, makes resolving merges annoying :P
Gavin Carothers: Please DON'T update it each time, makes resolving merges annoying :P ←
10:11:10 <gavinc> Yes.
Gavin Carothers: Yes. ←
10:11:34 <sandro> Well, you make me smile at least. :-)
Sandro Hawke: Well, you make me smile at least. :-) ←
10:11:35 <gavinc> N-Quads and N-Triples!
Gavin Carothers: N-Quads and N-Triples! ←
10:11:44 <gavinc> since we didn't talk about N-Triples anywhere else
Gavin Carothers: since we didn't talk about N-Triples anywhere else ←
10:12:13 <pchampin> scribe: pchampin
(Scribe set to Pierre-Antoine Champin)
10:12:38 <pchampin> davidwood: we first considered making N-Triples a part of Turtle, then we decided to split it
David Wood: we first considered making N-Triples a part of Turtle, then we decided to split it ←
10:13:23 <gavinc> dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/n-triples.html
Gavin Carothers: dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/n-triples.html ←
10:14:06 <pchampin> gavinc: current dratf shouldn't require much work
Gavin Carothers: current dratf shouldn't require much work ←
10:14:08 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
10:14:12 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me ←
10:14:12 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
10:14:38 <cygri> topic: N-Quads and N-Triples
10:15:09 <pchampin> [discussing the language name]
[discussing the language name] ←
10:15:46 <pchampin> davidwood: did we agree to make this document REC track?
David Wood: did we agree to make this document REC track? ←
10:15:50 <pchampin> gavinc: yes
Gavin Carothers: yes ←
10:16:43 <pchampin> sandro: are escape sequences allowed?
Sandro Hawke: are escape sequences allowed? ←
10:16:49 <pchampin> gavinc: in this version, yes
Gavin Carothers: in this version, yes ←
10:18:07 <pchampin> sandro: could get rid of ECHAR in theory (backslash-escaping)
Sandro Hawke: could get rid of ECHAR in theory (backslash-escaping) ←
10:18:35 <pchampin> gavinc: would be back to the 2004 version, whose goal was to have a single way to represent things
Gavin Carothers: would be back to the 2004 version, whose goal was to have a single way to represent things ←
10:18:41 <pchampin> ... but this is not a requirement of this version
... but this is not a requirement of this version ←
10:19:01 <pchampin> ... in this version, you don't require either encoding, as this is UTF-8
... in this version, you don't require either escaping, as this is UTF-8 ←
10:19:21 <pchampin> s/encoding/escaping/
10:19:44 <pchampin> ... although some cases require UCHAR anyway (scribe missed which case it was)
... although some cases require UCHAR anyway (scribe missed which case it was) ←
10:20:05 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
10:20:20 <sandro> queue=cygri
Sandro Hawke: queue=cygri ←
10:20:20 <AndyS> Does any N-triples-2004 parser implement the UCHAR can't be used for chars like TAB?
Andy Seaborne: Does any N-triples-2004 parser implement the UCHAR can't be used for chars like TAB? ←
10:20:22 <gavinc> q- ericP
Gavin Carothers: q- ericP ←
10:20:22 <davidwood> ack ericp
David Wood: ack ericp ←
10:20:28 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
10:21:04 <pchampin> sandro: any canonical form?
Sandro Hawke: any canonical form? ←
10:21:10 <AndyS> scribe: + Some escape is needed for newline
Andy Seaborne: scribe: + Some escape is needed for newline ←
10:21:14 <AZ> you can only have one UCHAR in an IRIREF !?
Antoine Zimmermann: you can only have one UCHAR in an IRIREF !? ←
10:21:24 <AZ> """[132s] IRIREF ::= ('<' ([^<>"{}|^`\]-[#x00-#x20])* | UCHAR '>')"""
Antoine Zimmermann: """[132s] IRIREF ::= ('<' ([^<>"{}|^`\]-[#x00-#x20])* | UCHAR '>')""" ←
10:21:40 <gavinc> errr...
Gavin Carothers: errr... ←
10:21:55 <gavinc> should be [19] IRIREF ::= '<' ([^#x00-#x20<>\"{}|^`\] | UCHAR)* '>'
Gavin Carothers: should be [19] IRIREF ::= '<' ([^#x00-#x20<>\"{}|^`\] | UCHAR)* '>' ←
10:21:58 <gavinc> will fix
Gavin Carothers: will fix ←
10:22:06 <AndyS> AZ - C&P error from Turtle - no *
Andy Seaborne: AZ - C&P error from Turtle - no * ←
10:22:33 <pchampin> cygri: the nice thing about N-Triples/N-Quad is that they are easy to process with text tools
Richard Cyganiak: the nice thing about N-Triples/N-Quad is that they are easy to process with text tools ←
10:22:34 <AndyS> but it is a compression algorithm.
Andy Seaborne: but it is a compression algorithm. ←
10:22:38 <sandro> cygri: I suggest we have a Normalized N-Triples, informative, one space between terms, etc.
Richard Cyganiak: I suggest we have a Normalized N-Triples, informative, one space between terms, etc. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
10:22:58 <pchampin> ... its easier if you have some normalized/canonical form
... its easier if you have some normalized/canonical form ←
10:23:16 <pchampin> ... though this is good practice, mostly; it does not need to be normatively defined
... though this is good practice, mostly; it does not need to be normatively defined ←
10:23:40 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
10:24:01 <pchampin> ... making it non-normative would mainly minimize work
... making it non-normative would mainly minimize work ←
10:24:06 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
10:24:16 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
10:24:53 <pchampin> ivan: the first example has comments, but the grammar does not seem to define comments
Ivan Herman: the first example has comments, but the grammar does not seem to define comments ←
10:26:25 <pchampin> sandro: comments are line-oriented, while the rest of the grammar is not
Sandro Hawke: comments are line-oriented, while the rest of the grammar is not ←
10:26:44 <pchampin> ... hence, the comments are not in the grammar
... hence, the comments are not in the grammar ←
10:26:51 <sandro> gavin: comments are treated as whitespace
Gavin Carothers: comments are treated as whitespace [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
10:26:55 <pchampin> ... you can't copy-paste the grammar, you have to read the spec
... you can't copy-paste the grammar, you have to read the spec ←
10:27:19 <AndyS> Is "<s> <p> <o> . # comment" to be legal? (hope not)
Andy Seaborne: Is "<s> <p> <o> . # comment" to be legal? (hope not) ←
10:27:45 <davidwood> The first example says yes
David Wood: The first example says yes ←
10:27:49 <pchampin> gavinc: documents will be ready for working group review on the 15 of november
Gavin Carothers: documents will be ready for working group review on the 15 of november ←
10:28:24 <pchampin> gavinc: to AndyS question: yes it is possible in this version of N-Triples
Gavin Carothers: to AndyS question: yes it is possible in this version of N-Triples ←
10:28:45 <pchampin> AndyS: normalized N-Triples should say that comments must have their own line
Andy Seaborne: normalized N-Triples should say that comments must have their own line ←
10:28:51 <pchampin> gavinc: yes
Gavin Carothers: yes ←
10:29:16 <davidwood> gavinc: Normalized n-triples should allow end-of-line comments, but canonicalized n-triples should have line-oriented comments.
Gavin Carothers: Normalized n-triples should allow end-of-line comments, but canonicalized n-triples should have line-oriented comments. [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
10:29:30 <pchampin> gavinc: newlines inside triples are quite probably allowed
Gavin Carothers: newlines inside triples are quite probably allowed ←
10:29:43 <pchampin> (many people in the room): hummmm
(many people in the room): hummmm ←
10:30:23 <sandro> wondering about calling N-Triple something like "line-mode turtle".
Sandro Hawke: wondering about calling N-Triple something like "line-mode turtle". ←
10:30:26 <davidwood> gavinc: Expects to have n-triples spec ready for review by WG on 15 Nov with the intention to ask for FPWD shortly thereafter.
Gavin Carothers: Expects to have n-triples spec ready for review by WG on 15 Nov with the intention to ask for FPWD shortly thereafter. [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
10:30:31 <pchampin> gavinc: again, you shouldn't do that in noramlized N-Triples
Gavin Carothers: again, you shouldn't do that in noramlized N-Triples ←
10:30:33 <pchampin> q+
q+ ←
10:30:45 <davidwood> ack pchampin
David Wood: ack pchampin ←
10:31:21 <sandro> pchampin: Maybe we shouldn't make Normalized N-Triples just informative. If N-Triples is so permissive, there may be more need for Normalized N-Triples.
Pierre-Antoine Champin: Maybe we shouldn't make Normalized N-Triples just informative. If N-Triples is so permissive, there may be more need for Normalized N-Triples. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
10:31:49 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
10:32:43 <AndyS> If gavinc shrugs, shall we make it one line per triple, no trailing comments c.f. nt-2004.
Andy Seaborne: If gavinc shrugs, shall we make it one line per triple, no trailing comments c.f. nt-2004. ←
10:32:45 <sandro> ivan: I'm fine with N-Triples including these Normalization rules.
Ivan Herman: I'm fine with N-Triples including these Normalization rules. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
10:32:49 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
10:32:56 <sandro> ack cygri
Sandro Hawke: ack cygri ←
10:33:09 <pchampin> pchampin: what is the motivation for making it so more permissive?
Richard Cyganiak: what is the motivation for making it so more permissive? ←
10:33:31 <pchampin> s/pchampin/cygri/
10:33:51 <pchampin> gavinc: the motivation was to reuse as much as possible the rules from Turtle
Gavin Carothers: the motivation was to reuse as much as possible the rules from Turtle ←
10:34:02 <pchampin> ... remember that it was originally a subset of Turtle
... remember that it was originally a subset of Turtle ←
10:34:21 <pchampin> ... we can easily make it more restrictive
... we can easily make it more restrictive ←
10:34:43 <pchampin> ... by removing turtly bits from it
... by removing turtly bits from it ←
10:35:56 <pchampin> cygri: I think it more important to make it close to the old N-triples than to make it "turtlier"
Richard Cyganiak: I think it more important to make it close to the old N-triples than to make it "turtlier" ←
10:36:58 <pchampin> gavinc: the older spec was very pedantic, and noone implemented it strictly
Gavin Carothers: the older spec was very pedantic, and noone implemented it strictly ←
10:37:16 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-testcases/#eoln
Richard Cyganiak: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-testcases/#eoln ←
10:37:19 <davidwood> ack AndyS
David Wood: ack AndyS ←
10:37:28 <gavinc> line ::= ws* ( comment | triple )? eoln
Gavin Carothers: line ::= ws* ( comment | triple )? eoln ←
10:37:35 <gavinc> tailing newline
Gavin Carothers: tailing newline ←
10:37:49 <pchampin> andys: I think the expectation is that N-Triples is one line per triple
Andy Seaborne: I think the expectation is that N-Triples is one line per triple ←
10:37:50 <cygri> what's a newline?
Richard Cyganiak: what's a newline? ←
10:38:41 <pchampin> ... reusing turtle should not be a design constraint
... reusing turtle should not be a design constraint ←
10:39:17 <pchampin> davidwood: also recall that Oracle didn't want anything to break their existing N-Triples parser
David Wood: also recall that Oracle didn't want anything to break their existing N-Triples parser ←
10:40:08 <gavinc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/n-triples.html#n-triple-changes
Gavin Carothers: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/n-triples.html#n-triple-changes ←
10:41:31 <cygri> gavin, this one has a newline: http://www.w3.org/2000/10/rdf-tests/rdfcore/xmlbase/test008.nt
Richard Cyganiak: gavin, this one has a newline: http://www.w3.org/2000/10/rdf-tests/rdfcore/xmlbase/test008.nt ←
10:42:45 <AndyS> The test cases have a final newlines in the copy I'm looking at.
Andy Seaborne: The test cases have a final newlines in the copy I'm looking at. ←
10:42:56 <gavinc> huh
Gavin Carothers: huh ←
10:43:02 <AndyS> and copyright statement.
Andy Seaborne: and copyright statement. ←
10:43:12 <gavinc> ... I wonder if it depends on where you got them from
Gavin Carothers: ... I wonder if it depends on where you got them from ←
10:43:24 <davidwood> PROPOSED: The RDF 1.1 n-triples grammar will not allow line breaks within triples
PROPOSED: The RDF 1.1 n-triples grammar will not allow line breaks within triples ←
10:43:38 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
10:43:39 <cygri> +1.1
Richard Cyganiak: +1.1 ←
10:43:40 <AndyS> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
10:43:40 <ericP> +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
10:43:41 <gavinc> +1
Gavin Carothers: +1 ←
10:43:42 <pchampin> +1
+1 ←
10:43:47 <Arnaud> +1
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 ←
10:43:54 <ericP> +0.9
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +0.9 ←
10:44:02 <AZ> +1
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 ←
10:44:07 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
10:44:08 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
10:44:19 <ivan> RESOLVED: The RDF 1.1 n-triples grammar will not allow line breaks within triples
RESOLVED: The RDF 1.1 n-triples grammar will not allow line breaks within triples ←
10:44:44 <pchampin> RESOLVED: The RDF 1.1 n-triples grammar will not allow line breaks within triples
RESOLVED: The RDF 1.1 n-triples grammar will not allow line breaks within triples ←
10:45:23 <gavinc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/n-triples.html#n-triple-changes
Gavin Carothers: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/n-triples.html#n-triple-changes ←
10:45:27 <davidwood> The editors will be gavinc and ericp
David Wood: The editors will be gavinc and ericp ←
10:45:47 <pchampin> davidwood: Eric, your appear as an editor of N-Triples, are you happy with that?
David Wood: Eric, your appear as an editor of N-Triples, are you happy with that? ←
10:45:57 <pchampin> ericp: I'm happy eitherway
Eric Prud'hommeaux: I'm happy eitherway ←
10:46:16 <pchampin> davidwood: anyway we'll have you as contact for the IETF registration
David Wood: anyway we'll have you as contact for the IETF registration ←
10:46:29 <pchampin> topic: N-Quads
10:47:04 <pchampin> cygri: I think it would be nice to have an N-Quads syntax
Richard Cyganiak: I think it would be nice to have an N-Quads syntax ←
10:47:11 <AndyS> +1 to NQuads spec. NQ exists! (don't care about empty graph but easy to add something)
Andy Seaborne: +1 to NQuads spec. NQ exists! (don't care about empty graph but easy to add something) ←
10:47:23 <ericP> q+ to demonstrate ignorance by asking what use case is addressed by N-Quads which is not addressed by Trig
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to demonstrate ignorance by asking what use case is addressed by N-Quads which is not addressed by Trig ←
10:47:26 <pchampin> sandro: what about the default graph?
Sandro Hawke: what about the default graph? ←
10:47:34 <gavinc> <> <> <> . <> <> <> <> .
Gavin Carothers: <> <> <> . <> <> <> <> . ←
10:48:29 <davidwood> ack ericp
David Wood: ack ericp ←
10:48:29 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to demonstrate ignorance by asking what use case is addressed by N-Quads which is not addressed by Trig
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to demonstrate ignorance by asking what use case is addressed by N-Quads which is not addressed by Trig ←
10:48:41 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
10:49:00 <pchampin> ericp: what can we accomplish with N-Quads that we can't with Trig?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: what can we accomplish with N-Quads that we can't with Trig? ←
10:49:52 <pchampin> ... seems that you don't end up with faster process for N-Quads than with Trig?
... seems that you don't end up with faster process for N-Quads than with Trig? ←
10:50:12 <pchampin> ivan: same argument as N-Triples: you can use line-oriented tools
ivan: same argument as N-Triples: you can use line-oriented tools ←
10:50:42 <gavinc> Too late, N-Quads exist
Gavin Carothers: Too late, N-Quads exist ←
10:50:43 <pchampin> ... and it is already used like that out there
... and it is already used like that out there ←
10:50:49 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
10:51:26 <pchampin> sandro: N-Triples is a subset of Turtle, you never need an N-Triple parser if you have a Turtle parser.
Sandro Hawke: N-Triples is a subset of Turtle, you never need an N-Triple parser if you have a Turtle parser. ←
10:51:35 <pchampin> ... this is not the same between N-Quads and Trig
... this is not the same between N-Quads and Trig ←
10:51:39 <davidwood> ack AndyS
David Wood: ack AndyS ←
10:52:16 <pchampin> andys: it's already out there, and people use it
Andy Seaborne: it's already out there, and people use it ←
10:52:38 <pchampin> ... re. N-Triples, people use specific parsers that happen to be faster than Turtle parsers
... re. N-Triples, people use specific parsers that happen to be faster than Turtle parsers ←
10:52:38 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
10:53:30 <pchampin> cygri: agreed it is a de facto standard
Richard Cyganiak: agreed it is a de facto standard ←
10:53:43 <pchampin> ... sure, we could work out a subset of Trig for that purpose
... sure, we could work out a subset of Trig for that purpose ←
10:53:58 <pchampin> ... cons: it's not what is currently being used
... cons: it's not what is currently being used ←
10:54:21 <AndyS> newlines again?
Andy Seaborne: newlines again? ←
10:54:27 <Arnaud> q+
Arnaud Le Hors: q+ ←
10:54:34 <davidwood> ack Arnaud
David Wood: ack Arnaud ←
10:54:41 <pchampin> ... pros: it could be a profile of N-Quads
... pros: it could be a profile of N-Quads ←
10:55:33 <pchampin> arnaud: still feel uncomfortable about the proliferation of syntaxes
Arnaud Le Hors: still feel uncomfortable about the proliferation of syntaxes ←
10:55:43 <pchampin> ... we are moving from 1 normative syntax to 7
... we are moving from 1 normative syntax to 7 ←
10:56:15 <pchampin> ... I understand that having multiple syntaxes makes it clear that what matters is the data model
... I understand that having multiple syntaxes makes it clear that what matters is the data model ←
10:56:17 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
10:56:32 <pchampin> ericp: but for this, we only need 2, not 7
Eric Prud'hommeaux: but for this, we only need 2, not 7 ←
10:56:53 <pchampin> arnaud: I agree that we should endorse existing syntax
Arnaud Le Hors: I agree that we should endorse existing syntax ←
10:57:03 <pchampin> ... but not try to define a new one to replace the old one,
... but not try to define a new one to replace the old one, ←
10:57:11 <pchampin> ... because the old one will not disappear
... because the old one will not disappear ←
10:58:26 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
10:58:31 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
10:58:42 <pchampin> davidwood: multiples syntax make it clearer that the data model is what matters
David Wood: multiples syntax make it clearer that the data model is what matters ←
10:59:15 <pchampin> ivan: I would propose that the current N-Triples document include N-Quads (as it is used in the wild)
Ivan Herman: I would propose that the current N-Triples document include N-Quads (as it is used in the wild) ←
10:59:44 <ericP> to convert from N-Quads to N-Trig: awk '{print $4 " { " $1 " " $2 " " $3 "}"}'
Eric Prud'hommeaux: to convert from N-Quads to N-Trig: awk '{print $4 " { " $1 " " $2 " " $3 "}"}' ←
11:00:01 <pchampin> arnaud: how would it be acceptable for N-Triples/N-Quad when it was not for Turtle/Trig?
Arnaud Le Hors: how would it be acceptable for N-Triples/N-Quad when it was not for Turtle/Trig? ←
11:00:15 <pchampin> ivan: I just want to limit the proliferation of documents
Ivan Herman: I just want to limit the proliferation of documents ←
11:00:24 <pchampin> q+
q+ ←
11:00:49 <sandro> PROPOSED: We'll do N-Quads on the REC Track, as another Dataset serialization syntax, in line with existing, in-the-wild N-Quads.
PROPOSED: We'll do N-Quads on the REC Track, as another Dataset serialization syntax, in line with existing, in-the-wild N-Quads. ←
11:01:01 <gavinc> +1
Gavin Carothers: +1 ←
11:01:04 <pchampin> ivan: we define a notation for dumps, defining what's already out there, and that's all
Ivan Herman: we define a notation for dumps, defining what's already out there, and that's all ←
11:01:06 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
11:01:12 <cygri> sandro, can we say "in the same doc as N-Triples"?
Richard Cyganiak: sandro, can we say "in the same doc as N-Triples"? ←
11:01:20 <ericP> -0.9
Eric Prud'hommeaux: -0.9 ←
11:01:30 <AZ> +1
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 ←
11:01:30 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
11:01:37 <pchampin> +1
+1 ←
11:01:43 <ericP> -0.9 due to proliferation of parsers
Eric Prud'hommeaux: -0.9 due to proliferation of parsers ←
11:01:43 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
11:01:47 <Arnaud> +1
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 ←
11:02:04 <AZ> q+
Antoine Zimmermann: q+ ←
11:02:05 <cygri> +1
Richard Cyganiak: +1 ←
11:02:13 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
11:02:22 <gavinc> "Line Oriented RDF Syntaxes"
Gavin Carothers: "Line Oriented RDF Syntaxes" ←
11:02:22 <pchampin> q-
q- ←
11:02:42 <yvesr> +0.1
Yves Raimond: +0.1 ←
11:03:03 <gavinc> The parsers already exist
Gavin Carothers: The parsers already exist ←
11:03:30 <gavinc> Just about any SPARQL store has to deal with N-Quads already
Gavin Carothers: Just about any SPARQL store has to deal with N-Quads already ←
11:03:36 <sandro> sandro: line-trig would be yet another language (in people's heads). n-quads already exists.
Sandro Hawke: line-trig would be yet another language (in people's heads). n-quads already exists. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
11:04:08 <pchampin> eric: I was more concerned in limiting the number of parsers, not the number of languages
Eric Prud'hommeaux: I was more concerned in limiting the number of parsers, not the number of languages ←
11:04:27 <pchampin> ... anyway, converting N-Quads to line-oriented Trig is quite trivial
... anyway, converting N-Quads to line-oriented Trig is quite easy ←
11:04:36 <pchampin> s/trivial/easy/
11:04:48 <davidwood> ack AZ
David Wood: ack AZ ←
11:04:48 <ivan> ack AZ
Ivan Herman: ack AZ ←
11:04:52 <sandro> sandro: How about in the spec we provide the informative unix command to convert n-quads to trig. :-)
Sandro Hawke: How about in the spec we provide the informative unix command to convert n-quads to trig. :-) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
11:04:56 <pchampin> ... making it easy to parse N-Quads with an (instrumented) Trig parser
... making it easy to parse N-Quads with an (instrumented) Trig parser ←
11:05:12 <ivan> ack cygri
Ivan Herman: ack cygri ←
11:05:36 <sandro> sandro: nquads syntax would be restricted to datasets (no literals or bnodes in fourth column)
Sandro Hawke: nquads syntax would be restricted to datasets (no literals or bnodes in fourth column) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
11:05:46 <pchampin> az: we should remove from N-Quads the fact that bnodes are allowed in the graph name position
Antoine Zimmermann: should we remove from N-Quads the fact that bnodes are allowed in the graph name position ←
11:06:01 <Arnaud> q+
Arnaud Le Hors: q+ ←
11:06:05 <sandro> cyg: the fact that an RDF syntax exists because not every RDF toolkit has to implement it. they are for particular user bases.
Richard Cyganiak: the fact that an RDF syntax exists because not every RDF toolkit has to implement it. they are for particular user bases. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
11:06:05 <pchampin> cygri: N-Quads will not lead to a proliferation of parsers, because the parsers are already there
Richard Cyganiak: N-Quads will not lead to a proliferation of parsers, because the parsers are already there ←
11:06:41 <davidwood> ack Arnaud
David Wood: ack Arnaud ←
11:07:08 <pchampin> s/az: we should/az: should we/
11:07:12 <gavinc> Introduction to RDF Syntaxes?
Gavin Carothers: Introduction to RDF Syntaxes? ←
11:07:17 <gavinc> as part of the primer?
Gavin Carothers: as part of the primer? ←
11:08:09 <pchampin> sandro: OWL had an Overview document, to help people with a large number of documents
Sandro Hawke: OWL had an Overview document, to help people with a large number of documents ←
11:08:15 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
11:08:19 <pchampin> ivan: I think this is a good idea
Ivan Herman: I think this is a good idea ←
11:08:35 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-overview/
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-overview/ ←
11:08:54 <pchampin> guus: in OWL1, this was the first section in all the documents
Guus Schreiber: in OWL1, this was the first section in all the documents ←
11:09:03 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
11:09:07 <pchampin> ivan: I think a separate document is better
Ivan Herman: I think a separate document is better ←
11:09:11 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-overview/
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-overview/ ←
11:09:52 <pchampin> cygri: I'm not sure about the targeted reader of such an overview document
Richard Cyganiak: I'm not sure about the targeted reader of such an overview document ←
11:10:33 <pchampin> ... the need for such an overview exist, but then it should not stop at the boundaries of this particular WG
... the need for such an overview exist, but then it should not stop at the boundaries of this particular WG ←
11:11:41 <davidwood> For an example of a useful overview document, see the CSS WG's current work page: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/current-work
David Wood: For an example of a useful overview document, see the CSS WG's current work page: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/current-work ←
11:11:44 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
11:11:51 <pchampin> ... the reader would also want to know about SPARQL or RDFa
... the reader would also want to know about SPARQL or RDFa ←
11:11:58 <sandro> RESOLVED: We'll do N-Quads on the REC Track, as another Dataset serialization syntax, in line with existing, in-the-wild N-Quads.
RESOLVED: We'll do N-Quads on the REC Track, as another Dataset serialization syntax, in line with existing, in-the-wild N-Quads. ←
11:12:01 <yvesr> so what should the primer 'syntax' section cover, then?
Yves Raimond: so what should the primer 'syntax' section cover, then? ←
11:12:04 <pchampin> ivan: I disagree, but that's ok
Ivan Herman: I disagree, but that's ok ←
11:12:09 <cygri> davidwood, that's a nice page
Richard Cyganiak: davidwood, that's a nice page ←
11:12:15 <gavinc> No.
Gavin Carothers: No. ←
11:13:42 <gavinc> "Line Oriented RDF Syntaxes"
Gavin Carothers: "Line Oriented RDF Syntaxes" ←
11:13:54 <gavinc> I'd like to avoid the word "Dump"
Gavin Carothers: I'd like to avoid the word "Dump" ←
11:13:55 <sandro> "RDF Dump Formats"
Sandro Hawke: "RDF Dump Formats" ←
11:14:07 <gavinc> "Line Oriented RDF Syntaxes"?
Gavin Carothers: "Line Oriented RDF Syntaxes"? ←
11:14:18 <AndyS> "Line oriented" -- the MapReduce case
Andy Seaborne: "Line oriented" -- the MapReduce case ←
11:14:37 <sandro> PROPOSED: We're do N-Triples and N-Quads in one REC-track documents, title to be decided
PROPOSED: We're do N-Triples and N-Quads in one REC-track documents, title to be decided ←
11:14:49 <Arnaud> +1
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 ←
11:14:50 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
11:14:50 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
11:14:53 <gavinc> +1
Gavin Carothers: +1 ←
11:14:53 <AndyS> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
11:14:53 <cygri> +1
Richard Cyganiak: +1 ←
11:14:55 <pchampin> +1
+1 ←
11:14:56 <AZ> +1
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 ←
11:14:59 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
11:15:10 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
11:15:13 <davidwood> Richard and Gavin to edit.
David Wood: Richard and Gavin to edit. ←
11:15:13 <sandro> RESOLVED: We'll do N-Triples and N-Quads in one REC-track documents, title to be decided
RESOLVED: We'll do N-Triples and N-Quads in one REC-track documents, title to be decided ←
11:15:16 <ericP> abstain
Eric Prud'hommeaux: abstain ←
11:15:17 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
11:15:52 <pchampin> topic: issue list
11:17:49 <pchampin> guus: I made a scan of the www-rdf-comments archive
Guus Schreiber: I made a scan of the www-rdf-comments archive ←
11:18:13 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
11:18:33 <pchampin> http://www.w3.org/mid/508FACB7.7080103@vu.nl
http://www.w3.org/mid/508FACB7.7080103@vu.nl ←
11:19:05 <pchampin> guus: we can paste it in a wiki page
Guus Schreiber: we can paste it in a wiki page ←
11:19:34 <pchampin> ... there could be duplications with the errata
... there could be duplications with the errata ←
11:20:13 <FabGandon> concerning errata I did this for RDF-XML http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-RDF-XML
Fabien Gandon: concerning errata I did this for RDF-XML http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-RDF-XML ←
11:20:59 <pchampin> ivan: there is no formal process with the errata
Ivan Herman: there is no formal process with the errata ←
11:22:07 <sandro> gavinc, we're looking at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/open
Sandro Hawke: gavinc, we're looking at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/open ←
11:22:19 <sandro> :-)
Sandro Hawke: :-) ←
11:23:24 <sandro> re ISSUE-23 -- does JSON-LD need a different media type when it contains multiple graphs???!?! (everyone sighs)
Sandro Hawke: re ISSUE-23 -- does JSON-LD need a different media type when it contains multiple graphs???!?! (everyone sighs) ←
11:25:11 <cygri> Resolution to close ISSUE-35 and ISSUE-38 from yesterday: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-10-29#resolution_10
Richard Cyganiak: Resolution to close ISSUE-35 and ISSUE-38 from yesterday: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-10-29#resolution_10 ←
11:25:38 <davidwood> Close ISSUE-35 We will not use an rdf:Graph construct.
David Wood: Close ISSUE-35 We will not use an rdf:Graph construct. ←
11:27:02 <davidwood> Close ISSUE-38 We will create dataset serialization formats (TriG and n-quads).
David Wood: Close ISSUE-38 We will create dataset serialization formats (TriG and n-quads). ←
11:27:10 <sandro> trackbot, hello?
Sandro Hawke: trackbot, hello? ←
11:27:10 <trackbot> Sorry, sandro, I don't understand 'trackbot, hello?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, sandro, I don't understand 'trackbot, hello?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help ←
11:27:17 <sandro> issue-35?
11:27:17 <trackbot> ISSUE-35 -- Should there be an rdf:Graph construct, or something like that? -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-35 -- Should there be an rdf:Graph construct, or something like that? -- open ←
11:27:17 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/35
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/35 ←
11:28:41 <davidwood> close ISSUE-35
David Wood: close ISSUE-35 ←
11:28:41 <trackbot> ISSUE-35 Should there be an rdf:Graph construct, or something like that? closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-35 Should there be an rdf:Graph construct, or something like that? closed ←
11:28:47 <davidwood> close ISSUE-38
David Wood: close ISSUE-38 ←
11:28:47 <trackbot> ISSUE-38 What new vocabulary should be added to RDF to talk about graphs? closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-38 What new vocabulary should be added to RDF to talk about graphs? closed ←
11:28:48 <sandro> agreed: close ISSUE-78 and make it an action on Guus
Sandro Hawke: agreed: close ISSUE-78 and make it an action on Guus ←
11:31:04 <pchampin> cygri: re issue-80 it is hard to get the document updated, as the WG is no longer active
Richard Cyganiak: re ISSUE-80 it is hard to get the document updated, as the WG is no longer active ←
11:31:54 <pchampin> sandro: we agreed yesterday that we didn't need to update them, as they are referring to an older version of RDF
Sandro Hawke: we agreed yesterday that we didn't need to update them, as they are referring to an older version of RDF ←
11:31:55 <sandro> sandro: I don't think we need to do anything here....
Sandro Hawke: I don't think we need to do anything here.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
11:32:52 <pchampin> cygri: the problem is that rdf:PlainLiteral is in the rdf: namespace, and it should not be there anymore
Richard Cyganiak: the problem is that rdf:PlainLiteral is in the rdf: namespace, and it should not be there anymore ←
11:33:34 <pchampin> ... OWL should now manage with xsd:String and rdf:LangString
... OWL should now manage with xsd:String and rdf:LangString ←
11:33:57 <pchampin> ivan: they can not make this kind of change now, only editorial changes
Ivan Herman: they can not make this kind of change now, only editorial changes ←
11:34:33 <pchampin> sandro: the only thing to do is to send an email to the owl-comments list
Sandro Hawke: the only thing to do is to send an email to the owl-comments list ←
11:35:03 <pchampin> ACTION cygri to send a message about rdf:PlainLiteral to the owl-comments mailing list
ACTION cygri to send a message about rdf:PlainLiteral to the owl-comments mailing list ←
11:35:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-201 - Send a message about rdf:PlainLiteral to the owl-comments mailing list [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2012-11-06].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-201 - Send a message about rdf:PlainLiteral to the owl-comments mailing list [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2012-11-06]. ←
11:35:06 <sandro> +1 cygri ask OWL WG to redo rdf:PlainLiteral as using xs:string and xs:LangString.
Sandro Hawke: +1 cygri ask OWL WG to redo rdf:PlainLiteral as using xs:string and xs:LangString. ←
11:35:17 <gavinc> ISSUE-99 is a No.
Gavin Carothers: ISSUE-99 is a No. ←
11:35:43 <pchampin> close issue-80
11:35:44 <trackbot> ISSUE-80 Ask OWL and RIF WGs to update the rdf:PlainLiteral spec closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-80 Ask OWL and RIF WGs to update the rdf:PlainLiteral spec closed ←
11:36:17 <gavinc> ISSUE-99 is a No!
Gavin Carothers: ISSUE-99 is a No! ←
11:36:25 <gavinc> and there is a bigger reason ;)
Gavin Carothers: and there is a bigger reason ;) ←
11:36:36 <gavinc> in that we likely shouldn't have the HTML datatype either
Gavin Carothers: in that we likely shouldn't have the HTML datatype either ←
11:36:56 <pchampin> fabgandon: re issue-99 we discussed that yesterday,
Fabien Gandon: re ISSUE-99 we discussed that yesterday, ←
11:37:12 <pchampin> ... and I recorded for the XML syntax that it should include an example of HTML literal using CDATA
... and I recorded for the XML syntax that it should include an example of HTML literal using CDATA ←
11:37:22 <cygri> ISSUE-99?
11:37:22 <trackbot> ISSUE-99 -- Does RDF/XML get a special syntax for HTML Literals? -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-99 -- Does RDF/XML get a special syntax for HTML Literals? -- open ←
11:37:22 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/99
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/99 ←
11:37:38 <pchampin> close issue-99
11:37:38 <trackbot> ISSUE-99 Does RDF/XML get a special syntax for HTML Literals? closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-99 Does RDF/XML get a special syntax for HTML Literals? closed ←
11:37:39 <gavinc> FabGandon, I wouldn't do that yet ;)
Gavin Carothers: FabGandon, I wouldn't do that yet ;) ←
11:41:19 <Zakim> -Gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: -Gavinc ←
11:52:59 <Zakim> +??P0
(No events recorded for 11 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P0 ←
11:53:05 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P0
Gregg Kellogg: zakim, I am ??P0 ←
11:53:05 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +gkellogg; got it ←
12:20:06 <markus> Zakim, what's the code?
(No events recorded for 27 minutes)
Markus Lanthaler: Zakim, what's the code? ←
12:20:06 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), markus
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), markus ←
12:22:25 <Zakim> +??P1
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P1 ←
12:22:36 <markus> Zakim, ??P1 is me
Markus Lanthaler: Zakim, ??P1 is me ←
12:22:36 <Zakim> +markus; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +markus; got it ←
12:22:56 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here? ←
12:22:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see Rhone_4, gkellogg, markus
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Rhone_4, gkellogg, markus ←
12:22:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see gkellogg, manu1, AndyS1, tbaker, markus, Guus, cygri, pchampin, Zakim, Arnaud, davidwood, trackbot, manu, gavinc, RRSAgent, yvesr, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see gkellogg, manu1, AndyS1, tbaker, markus, Guus, cygri, pchampin, Zakim, Arnaud, davidwood, trackbot, manu, gavinc, RRSAgent, yvesr, sandro, ericP ←
12:24:11 <Zakim> +Tony
Zakim IRC Bot: +Tony ←
12:25:52 <ScottB> Zakim, Tony is temporarily me
Scott Bauer: Zakim, Tony is temporarily me ←
12:25:52 <Zakim> +ScottB; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ScottB; got it ←
12:25:58 <Zakim> +??P4
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4 ←
12:26:06 <manu1> zakim, I am ??P4
Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P4 ←
12:26:06 <Zakim> +manu1; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +manu1; got it ←
12:26:36 <Zakim> +Gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: +Gavinc ←
12:40:11 <ericP> AndyS1, perl -pe 's/([^ ]+) ([^ ]+) (.*?) ([^ ]+) \./$4 { $1 $2 $3 }/'
(No events recorded for 13 minutes)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: AndyS1, perl -pe 's/([^ ]+) ([^ ]+) (.*?) ([^ ]+) \./$4 { $1 $2 $3 }/' ←
12:44:14 <yvesr> scribe: yvesr
(Scribe set to Yves Raimond)
12:46:05 <yvesr> topic: Quick round of introduction
12:46:15 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here? ←
12:46:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see Rhone_4, gkellogg, markus, ScottB, manu1, Gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Rhone_4, gkellogg, markus, ScottB, manu1, Gavinc ←
12:46:17 <Zakim> On IRC I see ivan, Guus, tidoust, SteveS, ScottB, gkellogg, manu1, AndyS1, tbaker, markus, cygri, pchampin, Zakim, Arnaud, davidwood, trackbot, manu, gavinc, RRSAgent, yvesr,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see ivan, Guus, tidoust, SteveS, ScottB, gkellogg, manu1, AndyS1, tbaker, markus, cygri, pchampin, Zakim, Arnaud, davidwood, trackbot, manu, gavinc, RRSAgent, yvesr, ←
12:46:17 <Zakim> ... sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... sandro, ericP ←
12:47:36 <yvesr> Francis Daoust (Joshfire) introducing himself
Francois Daoust (Joshfire) introducing himself ←
12:47:54 <yvesr> s/Francis/Francois
12:48:48 <manu1> Manu Sporny, Digital Bazaar/PaySwarm and W3C Web Payments, RDFa, JSON-LD
Manu Sporny: Manu Sporny, Digital Bazaar/PaySwarm and W3C Web Payments, RDFa, JSON-LD ←
12:49:00 <tidoust> [ I don't know what you call "Guest", but note I'm a regular participant of the RDF WG: http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=46168&public=1 ]
Francois Daoust: [ I don't know what you call "Guest", but note I'm a regular participant of the RDF WG: http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=46168&public=1 ] ←
12:49:10 <yvesr> topic: JSON-LD syntax documents
12:49:25 <gkellogg> http://json-ld.org/spec/latest/json-ld-syntax/
Gregg Kellogg: http://json-ld.org/spec/latest/json-ld-syntax/ ←
12:49:38 <sandro> ahh, sorry, tidoust, I didn't realize that.
Sandro Hawke: ahh, sorry, tidoust, I didn't realize that. ←
12:49:44 <yvesr> manu1: the document is in fairly good shape
Manu Sporny: the document is in fairly good shape ←
12:49:55 <yvesr> ... most changes at this time are editorial
... most changes at this time are editorial ←
12:50:14 <yvesr> ... we had a number of issues in the past, e.g. language maps, and alignment of json-ld data model and rdf model
... we had a number of issues in the past, e.g. language maps, and alignment of json-ld data model and rdf model ←
12:50:23 <yvesr> ... we had a number of discussions, that settled down
... we had a number of discussions, that settled down ←
12:50:35 <yvesr> ... and the draft is getting into a stable form
... and the draft is getting into a stable form ←
12:50:45 <yvesr> ... we could have a quick run through the issues
... we could have a quick run through the issues ←
12:51:15 <yvesr> Guus: can I search the document for issues?
Guus Schreiber: can I search the document for issues? ←
12:51:21 <markus> JSON-LD syntax issue list: https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues?milestone=2&page=1&sort=created&state=open
Markus Lanthaler: JSON-LD syntax issue list: https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues?milestone=2&page=1&sort=created&state=open ←
12:51:33 <yvesr> manu1: the major ones were cleared out when we took care of them, the main place for them is the issue tracker
Manu Sporny: the major ones were cleared out when we took care of them, the main place for them is the issue tracker ←
12:51:45 <yvesr> ivan: in the document itself, I found only one
Ivan Herman: in the document itself, I found only one ←
12:52:04 <yvesr> davidwood: is that not linked from the json-ld homepage?
David Wood: is that not linked from the json-ld homepage? ←
12:52:14 <yvesr> manu1: probably not, it is a fairly new way for us of handling issues
Manu Sporny: probably not, it is a fairly new way for us of handling issues ←
12:52:32 <yvesr> manu1: we have a link to the issue tracker from the document
Manu Sporny: we have a link to the issue tracker from the document ←
12:52:44 <yvesr> manu1: we can put a link on the json-ld page
Manu Sporny: we can put a link on the json-ld page ←
12:52:46 <markus> the link it's just filtering syntax/API related issues
Markus Lanthaler: the link is just filtering syntax/API related issues ←
12:52:51 <yvesr> Guus: we will go through the issues
Guus Schreiber: we will go through the issues ←
12:52:53 <manu1> ACTION: Manu put a link to the JSON-LD issue tracker on json-ld.org
ACTION: Manu put a link to the JSON-LD issue tracker on json-ld.org ←
12:52:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-202 - Put a link to the JSON-LD issue tracker on json-ld.org [on Manu Sporny - due 2012-11-06].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-202 - Put a link to the JSON-LD issue tracker on json-ld.org [on Manu Sporny - due 2012-11-06]. ←
12:52:57 <markus> s/it's just/is just/
12:53:28 <yvesr> manu1: we are not going through the issues that are resolved
Manu Sporny: we are not going through the issues that are resolved ←
12:54:12 <yvesr> manu1: first issue, explicit mapping - https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues/157
Manu Sporny: first issue, explicit mapping - https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues/157 ←
12:54:31 <cygri> davidwood, guus, can we get the issues on the big screen?
Richard Cyganiak: davidwood, guus, can we get the issues on the big screen? ←
12:54:38 <yvesr> manu1: explicit mapping of rdf terminology to json-ld terminology
Manu Sporny: explicit mapping of rdf terminology to json-ld terminology ←
12:54:56 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
12:54:58 <yvesr> manu1: and mapping from the rdf data model to the json ld datamodel
Manu Sporny: and mapping from the rdf data model to the json ld datamodel ←
12:55:12 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON-LD_Data_Model
Richard Cyganiak: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON-LD_Data_Model ←
12:55:20 <yvesr> cygri: I have some work in progress on the wiki
Richard Cyganiak: I have some work in progress on the wiki ←
12:55:39 <yvesr> ... I am working out what the json-ld data model actually is
... I am working out what the json-ld data model actually is ←
12:55:48 <yvesr> ... I made an effort to spell those out
... I made an effort to spell those out ←
12:55:58 <davidwood> cygri, done
David Wood: cygri, done ←
12:56:16 <yvesr> ... There are a couple of things that I haven't quite worked out yet
... There are a couple of things that I haven't quite worked out yet ←
12:56:34 <yvesr> ... The JSON-LD community should look at it to check I have got it right
... The JSON-LD community should look at it to check I have got it right ←
12:56:52 <yvesr> ... There are a number of differences there, but that's not news
... There are a number of differences there, but that's not news ←
12:57:18 <yvesr> ... What I have written could be an input to that mapping process
... What I have written could be an input to that mapping process ←
12:57:28 <yvesr> ... It is going to go in that appendix that lists the differences
... It is going to go in that appendix that lists the differences ←
12:57:36 <yvesr> ... And thereby states how the two map to each other
... And thereby states how the two map to each other ←
12:57:46 <yvesr> Guus: What is the nature of the mapping?
Guus Schreiber: What is the nature of the mapping? ←
12:58:15 <yvesr> cygri: There is a distinction made in the JSON-LD data model that wouldn't survive in RDF
Richard Cyganiak: There is a distinction made in the JSON-LD data model that wouldn't survive in RDF ←
12:58:37 <yvesr> Guus: It is an important thing for people to read
Guus Schreiber: It is an important thing for people to read ←
12:58:48 <yvesr> cygri: It is going to be part of that appendix
Richard Cyganiak: It is going to be part of that appendix ←
12:58:54 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
12:59:01 <Guus> ack xygri
Guus Schreiber: ack xygri ←
12:59:11 <Guus> ack cygri
Guus Schreiber: ack cygri ←
12:59:20 <yvesr> sandro: Is there any use on highlighting those issues?
Sandro Hawke: Is there any use on highlighting those issues? ←
12:59:30 <yvesr> manu1: That's still up in the air
Manu Sporny: That's still up in the air ←
12:59:34 <ericP> maybe we should address "Language tags are not normalized to lower case." by removing that from RDF (I'm not sure it's widely implemented)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: maybe we should address "Language tags are not normalized to lower case." by removing that from RDF (I'm not sure it's widely implemented) ←
12:59:53 <yvesr> ... We want to do it in a way that makes the RDF WG happy with the document
... We want to do it in a way that makes the RDF WG happy with the document ←
12:59:56 <Guus> q+
Guus Schreiber: q+ ←
13:00:00 <yvesr> ... It depends on the review comments we get
... It depends on the review comments we get ←
13:00:20 <yvesr> ... If it is not clear enough we'll find out a way to make it clear
... If it is not clear enough we'll find out a way to make it clear ←
13:00:36 <yvesr> Guus: A warning would be good, so that people are aware
Guus Schreiber: A warning would be good, so that people are aware ←
13:00:45 <davidwood> ack Guus
David Wood: ack Guus ←
13:01:22 <yvesr> manu1: We wanted to concentrate all those differences in one area, so that there is only one document to read to check all the differences
Manu Sporny: We wanted to concentrate all those differences in one area, so that there is only one document to read to check all the differences ←
13:01:26 <yvesr> sandro: I have a problem with that
Sandro Hawke: I have a problem with that ←
13:01:55 <gkellogg> q+
Gregg Kellogg: q+ ←
13:01:58 <yvesr> sandro: I am not happy about there being differences, but they are tolerable if people know they are operating outside of the RDF stack
Sandro Hawke: I am not happy about there being differences, but they are tolerable if people know they are operating outside of the RDF stack ←
13:02:01 <davidwood> q+
David Wood: q+ ←
13:02:15 <yvesr> Guus: That's exactly why I would like to see an RDF note
Guus Schreiber: That's exactly why I would like to see an RDF note ←
13:02:34 <yvesr> sandro: JSON-LD claims to be Linked Data, but timbl's definition points to RDF
Sandro Hawke: JSON-LD claims to be Linked Data, but timbl's definition points to RDF ←
13:03:03 <yvesr> q?
q? ←
13:03:05 <Guus> ack gkellog
Guus Schreiber: ack gkellog ←
13:03:07 <yvesr> ack gkellogg
ack gkellogg ←
13:03:34 <yvesr> gkellogg: Properties as bnodes comes from the fact we're using JSON
Gregg Kellogg: Properties as bnodes comes from the fact we're using JSON ←
13:03:44 <yvesr> ... it is not intended to target a specific use-case
... it is not intended to target a specific use-case ←
13:03:48 <sandro> q+ to say then just rule it out, as in Turtle
Sandro Hawke: q+ to say then just rule it out, as in Turtle ←
13:03:49 <pchampin> q+
13:04:01 <sandro> q-
Sandro Hawke: q- ←
13:04:14 <yvesr> ... Graph can be bnodes as well, for the same reason - it is a consequence of using JSON as a basis
... Graph can be bnodes as well, for the same reason - it is a consequence of using JSON as a basis ←
13:04:20 <manu1> We absolutely should not go down the rabbit hole on this issue - let Richard finish his work, then we can review it.
Manu Sporny: We absolutely should not go down the rabbit hole on this issue - let Richard finish his work, then we can review it. ←
13:04:22 <yvesr> ... We're not advocating using it
... We're not advocating using it ←
13:04:37 <Guus> ack davidwood
Guus Schreiber: ack davidwood ←
13:04:58 <yvesr> davidwood: I'd like to see, in the introduction, a reference to RDF
David Wood: I'd like to see, in the introduction, a reference to RDF ←
13:05:16 <yvesr> ... I'd like to see a statement saying that JSON-LD is based on the RDF model
... I'd like to see a statement saying that JSON-LD is based on the RDF model ←
13:05:31 <yvesr> ... I'd not like to see a mapping between two data models
... I'd not like to see a mapping between two data models ←
13:05:57 <yvesr> ... Even though JSON allows you to make syntactic statement using blank nodes in various places, don't do that
... Even though JSON allows you to make syntactic statement using blank nodes in various places, don't do that ←
13:06:07 <tidoust> q+
Francois Daoust: q+ ←
13:06:07 <sandro> It's just like in Turtle -- where you can say: <a> _:x <b> --- except the spec says DONT.
Sandro Hawke: It's just like in Turtle -- where you can say: <a> _:x <b> --- except the spec says DONT. ←
13:06:13 <Arnaud> +1 to david's proposal
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 to david's proposal ←
13:06:21 <yvesr> ... In Mulgara, it was possible to have literals as predicates, but we never exposed it, never said it was a good idea
... In Mulgara, it was possible to have literals as predicates, but we never exposed it, never said it was a good idea ←
13:06:26 <yvesr> ... So nobody ever did it
... So nobody ever did it ←
13:06:29 <manu1> q+ to state that we're open to adding that to the spec.
Manu Sporny: q+ to state that we're open to adding that to the spec. ←
13:06:33 <Guus> ack pchampin
Guus Schreiber: ack pchampin ←
13:07:04 <sandro> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/FTF3#Day_2
13:07:09 <yvesr> pchampin: Two remarks, the SPARQL data model superseeds RDF by allowing literals as subjects, so I don't see why it would be annoying for JSON-LD
Pierre-Antoine Champin: Two remarks, the SPARQL data model superseeds RDF by allowing literals as subjects, so I don't see why it would be annoying for JSON-LD ←
13:07:57 <yvesr> ... Also, could there be a way around that? Could we assume that there is no mapping if a blank node appears in the predicate position?
... Also, could there be a way around that? Could we assume that there is no mapping if a blank node appears in the predicate position? ←
13:08:05 <Guus> ack tidoust
Guus Schreiber: ack tidoust ←
13:08:31 <yvesr> tidoust: We will have to find the right level of enforcement in the spec
Francois Daoust: We will have to find the right level of enforcement in the spec ←
13:09:00 <Guus> ack manu1
Guus Schreiber: ack manu1 ←
13:09:01 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to state that we're open to adding that to the spec.
Zakim IRC Bot: manu1, you wanted to state that we're open to adding that to the spec. ←
13:09:01 <yvesr> ... I would suggest we just wait until it is phrased out in the spec so that we can see what works and what doesn't
... I would suggest we just wait until it is phrased out in the spec so that we can see what works and what doesn't ←
13:09:24 <sandro> tidoust: MAY vs SHOULD vs MUST on JSON-LJ going beyond RDF data model.
Francois Daoust: MAY vs SHOULD vs MUST on JSON-LJ going beyond RDF data model. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
13:09:35 <yvesr> manu1: We are open to putting something like that in the spe
Manu Sporny: We are open to putting something like that in the spec ←
13:09:36 <sandro> -1
Sandro Hawke: -1 ←
13:09:41 <sandro> -.9
Sandro Hawke: -.9 ←
13:09:55 <yvesr> s/spe/spec
13:10:13 <yvesr> sandro: We should agree on the way the JSON-LD talks about RDF
Sandro Hawke: We should agree on the way the JSON-LD talks about RDF ←
13:10:27 <yvesr> ... Before more editorial work happens on those things in the JSON-LD spec
... Before more editorial work happens on those things in the JSON-LD spec ←
13:10:35 <yvesr> manu1: Most of these issues have been talked about before
Manu Sporny: Most of these issues have been talked about before ←
13:10:39 <yvesr> sandro: But not addressed
Sandro Hawke: But not addressed ←
13:10:55 <yvesr> manu1: That's why I would wait for these comments to be addressed in the spec text
Manu Sporny: That's why I would wait for these comments to be addressed in the spec text ←
13:11:15 <yvesr> Guus: I have heard three actions: 1) the appendix
Guus Schreiber: I have heard three actions: 1) the appendix ←
13:11:34 <yvesr> ... 2) Explicit mention in the introduction
... 2) Explicit mention in the introduction ←
13:12:04 <yvesr> ... 3) Marking in the text where the differences are
... 3) Marking in the text where the differences are ←
Formatted by CommonScribe
This revision (#3) generated 2012-10-30 13:17:19 UTC by 'sandro', comments: None