RDF Working Group

Minutes of 06 July 2011

Seen
Alex Hall, Andy Seaborne, Antoine Zimmermann, Christopher Matheus, David Wood, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Gavin Carothers, Ian Davis, Lee Feigenbaum, Matteo Brunati, Mischa Tuffield, Nicholas Humfrey, Patrick Hayes, Pierre-Antoine Champin, Richard Cyganiak, Sandro Hawke, Scott Bauer, Ted Thibodeau, Thomas Steiner, Yves Raimond, Zhe Wu
Regrets
Sandro Hawke
Scribe
Christopher Matheus
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. minutes June 29 acceptted link
  2. accept minutes for June 22 link
  3. Move http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/tip/rdf-turtle/index.html to Working Draft. link
Topics
14:57:28 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/06-rdf-wg-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/06-rdf-wg-irc

14:58:30 <davidwood> zakim, code?

David Wood: zakim, code?

14:58:31 <Zakim> sorry, davidwood, I don't know what conference this is

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, davidwood, I don't know what conference this is

14:58:47 <davidwood> zakim, I agree with Pat.  You can be hopeless at times.

David Wood: zakim, I agree with Pat. You can be hopeless at times.

14:58:47 <Zakim> I don't understand you, davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand you, davidwood

14:59:32 <gavinc> zakim, this will be rdf

Gavin Carothers: zakim, this will be rdf

14:59:32 <Zakim> ok, gavinc, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, gavinc, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started

14:59:53 <yvesr> Zakim, who is on the phone?

Yves Raimond: Zakim, who is on the phone?

14:59:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see +44.207.923.aaaa, ??P11, ??P16, davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +44.207.923.aaaa, ??P11, ??P16, davidwood

15:00:03 <Zakim> +??P22

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P22

15:00:04 <AndyS> zakim, ??P16 is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P16 is me

15:00:04 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

15:00:06 <yvesr> Zakim, +44.207.923.aaaa is yvesr

Yves Raimond: Zakim, +44.207.923.aaaa is yvesr

15:00:06 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it

15:00:11 <yvesr> Zakim, mute me

Yves Raimond: Zakim, mute me

15:00:12 <AndyS> (maybe)

Andy Seaborne: (maybe)

15:00:13 <Zakim> +gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc

15:00:13 <Zakim> yvesr should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: yvesr should now be muted

15:00:23 <AndyS> zakim, mute me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, mute me

15:00:23 <Zakim> AndyS should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS should now be muted

15:00:27 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer

Zakim IRC Bot: +Scott_Bauer

15:00:34 <davidwood> zakim, who is talking?

David Wood: zakim, who is talking?

15:00:45 <Zakim> davidwood, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Scott_Bauer (5%)

Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Scott_Bauer (5%)

15:00:49 <cmatheus> zakim, ??P22 is me

Christopher Matheus: zakim, ??P22 is me

15:00:49 <Zakim> +cmatheus; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +cmatheus; got it

15:00:52 <Zakim> +??P34

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P34

15:01:01 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

15:01:03 <AndyS> zakim, unmute me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, unmute me

15:01:03 <Zakim> AndyS should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS should no longer be muted

15:01:06 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:01:06 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:01:08 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:01:08 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:01:16 <mbrunati> zakim, ??P34 is me

Matteo Brunati: zakim, ??P34 is me

15:01:16 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +mbrunati; got it

15:01:19 <pchampin> zakim, who is on the phone?

Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, who is on the phone?

15:01:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr (muted), ??P11 (muted), AndyS, davidwood, cmatheus, gavinc, Scott_Bauer, mbrunati, MacTed (muted)

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see yvesr (muted), ??P11 (muted), AndyS, davidwood, cmatheus, gavinc, Scott_Bauer, mbrunati, MacTed (muted)

15:01:22 <Zakim> +LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF

15:01:35 <pchampin> zakim, ??P11 is me

Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, ??P11 is me

15:01:35 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin; got it

15:01:36 <Zakim> +??P38

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P38

15:01:44 <mischat_> zakim, ??P38 is me

Mischa Tuffield: zakim, ??P38 is me

15:01:44 <Zakim> +mischat_; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +mischat_; got it

15:01:48 <mischat_> zakim, mute me

Mischa Tuffield: zakim, mute me

15:01:48 <Zakim> mischat_ should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: mischat_ should now be muted

15:01:49 <cmatheus> hello, I'm am here and ready to scribe.

Christopher Matheus: hello, I'm am here and ready to scribe.

15:01:52 <mischat_> hello

Mischa Tuffield: hello

15:01:53 <davidwood> Thanks

David Wood: Thanks

15:02:11 <cmatheus> scribe: cmatheus

(Scribe set to Christopher Matheus)

15:02:11 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.212.aabb

15:02:24 <AlexHall> zakim, aabb is me

Alex Hall: zakim, aabb is me

15:02:24 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall; got it

15:02:36 <cmatheus> zakim, scribe: cmatheus

zakim, scribe: cmatheus

15:02:36 <Zakim> I don't understand 'scribe: cmatheus', cmatheus

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'scribe: cmatheus', cmatheus

15:02:36 <zwu2> zakim, code?

Zhe Wu: zakim, code?

15:02:38 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), zwu2

15:02:50 <sandro> regrets: sandro
15:02:51 <cmatheus> Scribe: cmatheus
15:02:51 <davidwood> scribe: cmatheus
15:03:04 <Zakim> +tomayac

Zakim IRC Bot: +tomayac

15:03:17 <cmatheus> I was expecting a confirmation from Zakim but haven't seen one.

I was expecting a confirmation from Zakim but haven't seen one.

15:03:18 <davidwood> sandro: We could use your help with the 22 June telecon minutes if you can.  Please see email for details.

Sandro Hawke: We could use your help with the 22 June telecon minutes if you can. Please see email for details. [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ]

15:03:23 <Zakim> +zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2

15:03:28 <zwu2> zakim, mute me

Zhe Wu: zakim, mute me

15:03:28 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should now be muted

15:03:31 <AndyS> zakim a bit confused?  #41 not working? Very very delayed?

Andy Seaborne: zakim a bit confused? #41 not working? Very very delayed?

15:03:46 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

15:03:46 <davidwood> Scribe: Christopher Matheus
15:03:54 <cmatheus> is there a way to confirm that am the scribe?

is there a way to confirm that am the scribe?

15:03:57 <davidwood> scribenick: cmatheus
15:04:07 <sandro> done, davidwood

Sandro Hawke: done, davidwood

15:04:11 <Zakim> +??P16

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P16

15:04:16 <AndyS> zakim, ??P16 is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P16 is me

15:04:16 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

15:04:21 <davidwood> cmatheus, That is an RRSAgent function, not a Zakim function.

David Wood: cmatheus, That is an RRSAgent function, not a Zakim function.

15:04:26 <Zakim> +iand

Zakim IRC Bot: +iand

15:04:28 <davidwood> sandro, thanks!

David Wood: sandro, thanks!

15:04:39 <cmatheus> thanks

thanks

15:04:43 <davidwood> np

David Wood: np

15:04:51 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?

David Wood: Zakim, who is here?

15:04:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr (muted), pchampin (muted), davidwood, cmatheus, gavinc, Scott_Bauer, mbrunati, MacTed (muted), LeeF, mischat_ (muted), AlexHall, tomayac, zwu2 (muted),

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see yvesr (muted), pchampin (muted), davidwood, cmatheus, gavinc, Scott_Bauer, mbrunati, MacTed (muted), LeeF, mischat_ (muted), AlexHall, tomayac, zwu2 (muted),

15:04:55 <Zakim> ... AndyS, iand

Zakim IRC Bot: ... AndyS, iand

15:05:17 <sandro> scribe: cmatheus
15:05:50 <cmatheus> davidwood: telecom minutes from June 22 -- I don't see them

David Wood: telecom minutes from June 22 -- I don't see them

15:06:16 <davidwood> sandro, URL for the 22 June minutes?  I don't see them...

David Wood: sandro, URL for the 22 June minutes? I don't see them...

15:06:53 <AndyS> Were there minutes from the graph terminology RDF/SPARQL telecon?

Andy Seaborne: Were there minutes from the graph terminology RDF/SPARQL telecon?

<cmatheus> Topic: June 29 telecon minutes

1. June 29 telecon minutes

15:06:56 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 29 June telecon:

David Wood: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 29 June telecon:

15:06:56 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-29

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-29

15:07:02 <cmatheus> in mean time... propose to accept minutes form June 29

in mean time... propose to accept minutes form June 29

15:07:21 <AndyS> OK  - thx davidwood.

Andy Seaborne: OK - thx davidwood.

15:07:28 <cmatheus> does anyone object to them being accepted?

does anyone object to them being accepted?

15:07:35 <sandro> davidwood, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-22

Sandro Hawke: davidwood, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-22

15:07:41 <sandro> (not cleaned up AT ALL thought)

Sandro Hawke: (not cleaned up AT ALL thought)

15:07:42 <cmatheus> okay, accpet the June 29 minutes as written

okay, accpet the June 29 minutes as written

15:08:04 <cmatheus> Resolution: minutes June 29 acceptted

RESOLVED: minutes June 29 acceptted

15:08:36 <yvesr> i did

Yves Raimond: i did

<cmatheus> Topic: June 22 telecon minutes

2. June 22 telecon minutes

15:08:45 <cmatheus> davidwood: Richard was going to fix the minutes but is on holiday

David Wood: Richard was going to fix the minutes but is on holiday

15:09:08 <cmatheus> typical of summer so we'll leave in his hands

typical of summer so we'll leave in his hands

15:09:44 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-22 haven't you know read them

Gavin Carothers: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-22 haven't you know read them

15:09:50 <cmatheus> I'm no longer in member acl so some things I cannot edit

I'm no longer in member acl so some things I cannot edit

15:10:12 <cmatheus> we now have minutes for 22 June meeting -- please look through them so we can resolve them

we now have minutes for 22 June meeting -- please look through them so we can resolve them

15:10:54 <cmatheus> no resolutions but thought there were some action items taken

no resolutions but thought there were some action items taken

<cmatheus> Topic: Issue 32

3. ISSUE-32

15:11:26 <cmatheus> one thing from meeting was we agreed to defer issue 32 until next meeting

one thing from meeting was we agreed to defer ISSUE-32 until next meeting

15:11:36 <cmatheus> discussed on June 29 but no resolution was proposed

discussed on June 29 but no resolution was proposed

15:11:42 <LeeF> I am, but there are people talking in my office

Lee Feigenbaum: I am, but there are people talking in my office

15:11:57 <LeeF> ISSUE-32?

Lee Feigenbaum: ISSUE-32?

15:11:57 <trackbot> ISSUE-32 -- Can we identify both g-boxes and g-snaps? -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-32 -- Can we identify both g-boxes and g-snaps? -- open

15:11:57 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/32

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/32

15:12:02 <cmatheus> is Lee here today?  do you have any comment on issue 32?

is Lee here today? do you have any comment on ISSUE-32?

15:12:29 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please dial ericP-office

15:12:29 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ericP; the call is being made

15:12:30 <cmatheus> LeeF:  I think we discussed it a bunch but we said we had to wait on actions from graph telecomm

Lee Feigenbaum: I think we discussed it a bunch but we said we had to wait on actions from graph telecomm

15:12:35 <Zakim> +PatHayes

Zakim IRC Bot: +PatHayes

15:12:54 <cmatheus> things seemed close but there were actions on Righard and a few others to make a proposal to align things

things seemed close but there were actions on Righard and a few others to make a proposal to align things

15:13:11 <cmatheus> davidwood:  with that taken care of are there objections to June 22 minutes?

David Wood: with that taken care of are there objections to June 22 minutes?

15:13:23 <AndyS> abstain (was no there)

Andy Seaborne: abstain (was no there)

15:13:28 <AndyS> abstain (was not there)

Andy Seaborne: abstain (was not there)

15:13:30 <cmatheus> resolution: accept minutes for June 22

RESOLVED: accept minutes for June 22

15:13:35 <davidwood> Turtle Editors Draft

David Wood: Turtle Editors Draft

15:13:35 <davidwood> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/tip/rdf-turtle/index.html

David Wood: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/tip/rdf-turtle/index.html

15:13:35 <davidwood> 	▪	Discuss existing issues, notes.

David Wood: ▪ Discuss existing issues, notes.

15:13:35 <davidwood> 	▪	Any other issues to raise?

David Wood: ▪ Any other issues to raise?

<cmatheus> Topic: Turtle

4. Turtle

15:13:56 <cmatheus> davidwood: move on to turtle discussion

David Wood: move on to turtle discussion

15:14:39 <cygri> zakim, what's the code?

Richard Cyganiak: zakim, what's the code?

15:14:39 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), cygri

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), cygri

15:14:44 <cmatheus> Eric or Gavin, which would like to go through document in terms of issues and notes?

Eric or Gavin, which would like to go through document in terms of issues and notes?

15:14:47 <Zakim> +cygri

Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri

15:15:03 <cmatheus> ericp: gavin more tapped in than me

Eric Prud'hommeaux: gavin more tapped in than me

15:15:16 <davidwood> cygri, hi.  Have you been able to create minutes for the RDF/SPARQL telecon?

David Wood: cygri, hi. Have you been able to create minutes for the RDF/SPARQL telecon?

15:15:45 <cmatheus> gavinc: out standing issue 13 around xsd strings and plain literals, some language about it in the draft

Gavin Carothers: out standing ISSUE-13 around xsd strings and plain literals, some language about it in the draft

15:16:02 <cmatheus> issue about escape sequences being allowed

issue about escape sequences being allowed

15:16:09 <PatH> david, if that was meant for me, not yet.

Patrick Hayes: david, if that was meant for me, not yet.

15:16:10 <cmatheus> and the grammar table has issues

and the grammar table has issues

15:16:24 <cygri> davidwood, no, totally forgot about it, sorry. i have the log and will do it first thing tomorrow

Richard Cyganiak: davidwood, no, totally forgot about it, sorry. i have the log and will do it first thing tomorrow

15:16:26 <Zakim> -pchampin

Zakim IRC Bot: -pchampin

15:16:30 <cmatheus> in the production of the table (editorial issue)

in the production of the table (editorial issue)

15:16:48 <cmatheus> davidwood: associate issue in doc with working group issues

David Wood: associate issue in doc with working group issues

15:17:02 <cmatheus> gavin: I didnt see an issue for the one Eric added?

Gavin Carothers: I didnt see an issue for the one Eric added?

15:17:11 <ericP> ericP has changed the topic to: RDF-WG weekly meeting - Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.07.06

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ericP has changed the topic to: RDF-WG weekly meeting - Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.07.06

15:17:16 <cmatheus> ericP:  I'm not sure there's an issue for that

Eric Prud'hommeaux: I'm not sure there's an issue for that

15:17:30 <cmatheus> davidwood: there's an issue that hasn't been openned and we should

David Wood: there's an issue that hasn't been openned and we should

15:17:38 <gavinc> AndyS, where?

Gavin Carothers: AndyS, where?

15:17:57 <Zakim> +??P11

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P11

15:18:00 <cmatheus> gavin: if there is one it would be good to be able to link to it

Gavin Carothers: if there is one it would be good to be able to link to it

15:18:03 <AndyS> gavinc - in the abstract (in tip)

Andy Seaborne: gavinc - in the abstract (in tip)

15:18:06 <pchampin> zakim, ??P11 is me

Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, ??P11 is me

15:18:06 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin; got it

15:18:30 <cmatheus> davidwood: we have 9 issues that have been raised and not openned

David Wood: we have 9 issues that have been raised and not openned

15:18:34 <AndyS> gavinc - not a block on FPWD

Andy Seaborne: gavinc - not a block on FPWD

15:19:12 <cmatheus> I'd rather use tracker to track issues so we should raise issues for these

I'd rather use tracker to track issues so we should raise issues for these

15:19:42 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/new

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/new

15:19:46 <AndyS> ISSUE-13?

Andy Seaborne: ISSUE-13?

15:19:46 <trackbot> ISSUE-13 -- Review RDF XML Literals -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-13 -- Review RDF XML Literals -- open

15:19:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/13

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/13

15:19:56 <cmatheus> gavinc:  why don't I create a place holder one and we can use that

Gavin Carothers: why don't I create a place holder one and we can use that

15:20:22 <cmatheus> davidwood: issue 12 has been closed

David Wood: ISSUE-12 has been closed

15:21:14 <Zakim> -cmatheus

Zakim IRC Bot: -cmatheus

15:21:26 <cmatheus> cygri: issue 12 isn't closed

Richard Cyganiak: ISSUE-12 isn't closed

15:21:46 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?

David Wood: Zakim, who is here?

15:21:49 <Zakim> ... cygri, pchampin (muted)

Zakim IRC Bot: ... cygri, pchampin (muted)

15:21:52 <cmatheus> I JUST LOST MY PHONE CONNECTION -- COULD SOMEONE SCRIBE UNTIL I GET BACK ON?

I JUST LOST MY PHONE CONNECTION -- COULD SOMEONE SCRIBE UNTIL I GET BACK ON?

15:22:28 <Zakim> + +33.4.72.69.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +33.4.72.69.aacc

15:22:35 <pchampin> zakim, aacc is me

Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, aacc is me

15:22:35 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin; got it

15:22:54 <mischat> gavinc: : sandro asked about a change to turtle to allow <script> tags to inject turtle into an HTML document

Gavin Carothers: : sandro asked about a change to turtle to allow <script> tags to inject turtle into an HTML document [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ]

15:22:55 <Zakim> +??P15

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P15

15:23:00 <cmatheus> I'm back

I'm back

15:23:39 <mischat> zakim, ??P15 is cmatheus

Mischa Tuffield: zakim, ??P15 is cmatheus

15:23:39 <Zakim> +cmatheus; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +cmatheus; got it

15:23:45 <mischat> zakim, mute cmatheus

Mischa Tuffield: zakim, mute cmatheus

15:23:45 <Zakim> cmatheus should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: cmatheus should now be muted

15:24:21 <Zakim> -zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2

15:24:35 <mischat> gavinc: mentions that the examples in the source code of the current working spec is in the format which sandro asked for

Gavin Carothers: mentions that the examples in the source code of the current working spec is in the format which sandro asked for [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ]

15:24:50 <Zakim> +zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2

15:24:53 <cmatheus> davidwood:  it's been well supported by browsers but not not by developers -- worth calling out.

David Wood: it's been well supported by browsers but not not by developers -- worth calling out.

15:25:04 <mischat> davidwood: doesn't think that the <script> tag approach isn't that well known by developers, and should be highlighted by this group

David Wood: doesn't think that the <script> tag approach isn't that well known by developers, and should be highlighted by this group [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ]

15:25:06 <cmatheus> gavinc: I can stick it in there

Gavin Carothers: I can stick it in there

15:25:46 <cmatheus> davidwood:  we're trying to move this into a working draft -- what's it look like on your schedule as far as moving this into a working draft?

David Wood: we're trying to move this into a working draft -- what's it look like on your schedule as far as moving this into a working draft?

15:25:52 <cmatheus> gavinc: I'd like to

Gavin Carothers: I'd like to

15:25:57 <cmatheus> ericp: I'd like to

Eric Prud'hommeaux: I'd like to

15:26:02 <mischat> this is sandro email about the <script/> tag http://www.w3.org/mid/1307483315.2989.75.camel@waldron FWIW

Mischa Tuffield: this is sandro email about the <script/> tag http://www.w3.org/mid/1307483315.2989.75.camel@waldron FWIW

15:26:03 <iand> +1 to publishing turtle draft as wd

Ian Davis: +1 to publishing turtle draft as wd

15:26:18 <mischat> +1 to the turtle draft as a wd

Mischa Tuffield: +1 to the turtle draft as a wd

15:26:20 <cmatheus> davidwood:  why don't we just do that in this meeing?

David Wood: why don't we just do that in this meeing?

15:26:26 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

15:26:31 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

15:26:32 <yvesr> +1

Yves Raimond: +1

15:26:32 <mischat> +1

Mischa Tuffield: +1

15:26:33 <zwu2> +1

Zhe Wu: +1

15:26:34 <iand> +1

Ian Davis: +1

15:26:34 <mbrunati> +1

Matteo Brunati: +1

15:26:34 <AndyS> +1 to publishing Turtle doc as WD

Andy Seaborne: +1 to publishing Turtle doc as WD

15:26:37 <ericP> +1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1

15:26:38 <tomayac> +1

Thomas Steiner: +1

15:26:39 <cmatheus> if the editors are ready I propose we move the turtle doc to a working draft today

if the editors are ready I propose we move the turtle doc to a working draft today

15:26:40 <AlexHall> +1

Alex Hall: +1

15:26:44 <LeeF> +1

Lee Feigenbaum: +1

15:26:45 <cmatheus> cmatheus: +1

Christopher Matheus: +1

15:26:45 <gavinc> +1 to publishing turtle as FPWD

Gavin Carothers: +1 to publishing turtle as FPWD

15:26:50 <NickH> +1

Nicholas Humfrey: +1

15:26:57 <cmatheus> davidwood: so resolved

David Wood: so resolved

15:27:09 <pchampin> +1

Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1

15:27:13 <cygri> q+�

Richard Cyganiak: q+�

15:27:21 <davidwood> RESOLVED: Move http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/tip/rdf-turtle/index.html to Working Draft.

RESOLVED: Move http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/tip/rdf-turtle/index.html to Working Draft.

15:27:25 <cygri> q?

Richard Cyganiak: q?

15:27:36 <cmatheus> thank you for that -- it's looking good

thank you for that -- it's looking good

15:28:18 <cmatheus> cygri: is this a good time to consider doing an editors' draft of the RDF Concepts doc

Richard Cyganiak: is this a good time to consider doing an editors' draft of the RDF Concepts doc

15:28:36 <ericP> Proposed text: Note that Turtle can be embedded in <script></script> or <pre></pre> elements. Embedding in a script element <script type="text/turtle"><CDATA[[ turtle hear ]]></script> will not be displayed by browsers, while <pre class="data"> turtle here </pre>. In the second example, you may use a class to alter display or to signify that it can be parsed as text/turtle.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Proposed text: Note that Turtle can be embedded in <script></script> or <pre></pre> elements. Embedding in a script element <script type="text/turtle"><CDATA[[ turtle hear ]]></script> will not be displayed by browsers, while <pre class="data"> turtle here </pre>. In the second example, you may use a class to alter display or to signify that it can be parsed as text/turtle.

15:28:37 <cmatheus> only some minor changes are needed but it is in a state to be considered as a working draft

only some minor changes are needed but it is in a state to be considered as a working draft

15:28:42 <PatH> surely though the graph terminology should be in Concepts, no?

Patrick Hayes: surely though the graph terminology should be in Concepts, no?

15:28:55 <cmatheus> davidwood: I agree it's time to move it to a working draft state

David Wood: I agree it's time to move it to a working draft state

15:29:07 <yvesr> PatH, indeed

Yves Raimond: PatH, indeed

15:29:15 <gavinc> ericP, that's not exactly accurate, but something like that yeah

Gavin Carothers: ericP, that's not exactly accurate, but something like that yeah

15:29:20 <cmatheus> I haven't looked at the document in about 10 days

I haven't looked at the document in about 10 days

15:29:49 <cmatheus> propose we make this a topic for the next meeting, July 20th.

propose we make this a topic for the next meeting, July 20th.

15:29:57 <PatH> july, maybe?

Patrick Hayes: july, maybe?

15:30:12 <cmatheus> look over the Concepts doc over the next fortnight, is that okay with you?

look over the Concepts doc over the next fortnight, is that okay with you?

15:30:13 <gavinc> ericP, pre.example script { display:block; } for example in the turtle spec

Gavin Carothers: ericP, pre.example script { display:block; } for example in the turtle spec

15:30:21 <cmatheus> cygri: yes that's great

Richard Cyganiak: yes that's great

15:30:31 <cmatheus> davidwood: I'll make sure it gets on the agenda

David Wood: I'll make sure it gets on the agenda

15:30:44 <ericP> gavinc, sounds good

Eric Prud'hommeaux: gavinc, sounds good

<cmatheus> Topic: Graphs

5. Graphs

15:31:03 <cmatheus> davidwood: we've now left the tutrle draft and are moving onto graphs

David Wood: we've now left the tutrle draft and are moving onto graphs

15:31:20 <cmatheus> Lee, can you lead this discussion in absence of minutes?

Lee, can you lead this discussion in absence of minutes?

15:31:38 <cmatheus> LeeF: I'm sorry, I'm not prepared to lead this discussion today.

Lee Feigenbaum: I'm sorry, I'm not prepared to lead this discussion today.

15:31:52 <cmatheus> davidwood: okay.

David Wood: okay.

15:32:18 <cmatheus> Richard, it seems you were asked to create minutes from an earlier telecom.  will you be able to do that task?

Richard, it seems you were asked to create minutes from an earlier telecom. will you be able to do that task?

15:32:39 <cmatheus> cygri:  it completely fell off my radar so I didn't make minutes from it

Richard Cyganiak: it completely fell off my radar so I didn't make minutes from it

15:32:43 <ericP> q+

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+

15:32:47 <cmatheus> will do so first thing tomorrow

will do so first thing tomorrow

15:32:49 <mischat> i too think that the graph terminology should go into the concept document

Mischa Tuffield: i too think that the graph terminology should go into the concept document

15:33:04 <cmatheus> davidwood: please send a url to the minutes when they are ready

David Wood: please send a url to the minutes when they are ready

15:33:06 <davidwood> ack ericP

David Wood: ack ericP

15:33:14 <davidwood> ack \

David Wood: ack \

15:33:17 <davidwood> :)

David Wood: :)

15:33:19 <gavinc> ack �

Gavin Carothers: ack �

15:33:24 <cmatheus> ericp:  if you want something that takes minutes and dumps them as html you can pass them to me

Eric Prud'hommeaux: if you want something that takes minutes and dumps them as html you can pass them to me

15:33:38 <cmatheus> cygri:  sounds good, I'll do that

Richard Cyganiak: sounds good, I'll do that

15:34:26 <cmatheus> davidwood: in absence of Lee today I suggest we go through things opened in June 29 telecom, unless someone has a better idea for today's time

David Wood: in absence of Lee today I suggest we go through things opened in June 29 telecom, unless someone has a better idea for today's time

15:34:44 <cmatheus> let's go to issue 14: whats a named graph and what should we call it?

let's go to ISSUE-14: whats a named graph and what should we call it?

15:34:56 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

15:35:13 <cmatheus> Sandro has proposed the term gbox which we have consensus on

Sandro has proposed the term gbox which we have consensus on

15:35:20 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy?

15:35:25 <Zakim> -zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2

15:35:30 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: PatHayes (15%), pchampin.a (25%), AndyS (25%), davidwood (45%)

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: PatHayes (15%), pchampin.a (25%), AndyS (25%), davidwood (45%)

15:35:33 <cmatheus> we now need to align this with SPARQL documents which are much further along

we now need to align this with SPARQL documents which are much further along

15:35:37 <davidwood> ack PatH

David Wood: ack PatH

15:35:56 <cmatheus> path: we're having discussions on email on this topic - not sure of the state they're in

Patrick Hayes: we're having discussions on email on this topic - not sure of the state they're in

15:36:17 <cmatheus> some progress is being made, not sure what you want to do now

some progress is being made, not sure what you want to do now

15:36:26 <Zakim> +??P22

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P22

15:36:36 <cmatheus> davidwood: everyone seems to want to see minutes from that telecom.

David Wood: everyone seems to want to see minutes from that telecom.

15:36:46 <Zakim> +zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2

15:36:58 <NickH> Zakim, ??P22 is me

Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, ??P22 is me

15:36:58 <Zakim> +NickH; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it

15:37:05 <cmatheus> let's take a quick look down the issues list and see if there's one that we can make progress on

let's take a quick look down the issues list and see if there's one that we can make progress on

15:37:05 <cygri> ISSUE-38?

Richard Cyganiak: ISSUE-38?

15:37:05 <trackbot> ISSUE-38 -- What new vocabulary should be added to RDF to talk about graphs? -- raised

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-38 -- What new vocabulary should be added to RDF to talk about graphs? -- raised

15:37:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/38

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/38

15:37:08 <NickH> Zakim, mute me

Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, mute me

15:37:08 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: NickH should now be muted

<cmatheus> Topic: Issue 38

6. ISSUE-38

15:37:29 <cmatheus> leef:  issue 38 hasn't been discussed yet so there's nothing preventing progress on it today

Gavin Carothers: ISSUE-38 hasn't been discussed yet so there's nothing preventing progress on it today

15:37:46 <gavinc> s/leef/gavinc
15:37:53 <mischat> list of issues FWIW http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/

Mischa Tuffield: list of issues FWIW http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/

15:37:56 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

15:37:59 <cmatheus> davidwood: let's jump into 38 to see where we get

David Wood: let's jump into 38 to see where we get

15:38:09 <davidwood> ack cygri

David Wood: ack cygri

15:38:16 <cmatheus> some talk on this but it's a bit stale

some talk on this but it's a bit stale

15:38:53 <cmatheus> cygri: rdb2rdf working group is talking about whether we (rdf-wg) have a default graph and can we (rdb2rdf-wg) use that

Richard Cyganiak: rdb2rdf working group is talking about whether we (rdf-wg) have a default graph and can we (rdb2rdf-wg) use that

15:39:13 <AndyS> q+

Andy Seaborne: q+

15:39:16 <mischat> i wonder if there is any consensus with regards to what the default graph is

Mischa Tuffield: i wonder if there is any consensus with regards to what the default graph is

15:39:17 <ericP> i'm afraid of a graph name for the default graph

Eric Prud'hommeaux: i'm afraid of a graph name for the default graph

15:39:20 <PatH> what is THE default graph?

Patrick Hayes: what is THE default graph?

15:39:25 <cmatheus> can we get from the rdf-wg some concept of a default graph that we can use in SPARQL?

can we get from the rdf-wg some concept of a default graph that we can use in SPARQL?

15:39:34 <ericP> PatH, it's MY default graph

Eric Prud'hommeaux: PatH, it's MY default graph

15:39:48 <cmatheus> davidwood: this seems to be conflating issue 29 and 38, but it's a good point, I agree with that

David Wood: this seems to be conflating ISSUE-29 and 38, but it's a good point, I agree with that

15:39:51 <PatH> There is no notion of default anything in the RDF model.

Patrick Hayes: There is no notion of default anything in the RDF model.

15:39:52 <davidwood> ack AndyS

David Wood: ack AndyS

15:40:21 <gavinc> Mmm, do DataSets need names too? /me ducks

Gavin Carothers: Mmm, do DataSets need names too? /me ducks

15:40:22 <ericP>  file://localhost/~ ?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: file://localhost/~ ?

15:40:23 <cmatheus> andys: there isn't a default graph, as Pat's noted

Andy Seaborne: there isn't a default graph, as Pat's noted

15:40:32 <PatH> Ah. So default is a property of datasets whose value is a g-box.

Patrick Hayes: Ah. So default is a property of datasets whose value is a g-box.

15:40:49 <PatH>  rdf:defaultGraphOf

Patrick Hayes: rdf:defaultGraphOf

15:40:55 <cmatheus> davidwood: you were vocal about the fact that not every default graph sits in a database

David Wood: you were vocal about the fact that not every default graph sits in a database

15:40:59 <gavinc> I think so PatH

Gavin Carothers: I think so PatH

15:41:31 <cmatheus> when the entire graph resides in a file the file's url is the default graph -- do you recall this discussion?

when the entire graph resides in a file the file's url is the graph -- do you recall this discussion?

15:41:34 <cmatheus> andys: no

Andy Seaborne: no

15:41:35 <davidwood> s/default//
15:42:00 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

15:42:10 <davidwood> ack PatH

David Wood: ack PatH

15:42:12 <cmatheus> there isn't a web addressable name for the default graph because it's context dependent

there isn't a web addressable name for the default graph because it's context dependent

15:42:15 <ericP> there are lots of ambiguous URLs

Eric Prud'hommeaux: there are lots of ambiguous URLs

15:42:48 <cmatheus> path: it's a property of data sets whose value is a graph

Patrick Hayes: it's a property of data sets whose value is a graph

15:43:02 <cmatheus> fit's into the rdf model perfectly if its a property

fit's into the rdf model perfectly if its a property

15:43:31 <cmatheus> davidwood: I don't ink there's a problem with that.  question is is it mandatory and if the location changes does the name change?

David Wood: I don't ink there's a problem with that. question is is it mandatory and if the location changes does the name change?

15:43:35 <AndyS> ericP, not in this sense (I hope!).  file://localhost/.. hides context in localhost

Andy Seaborne: ericP, not in this sense (I hope!). file://localhost/.. hides context in localhost

15:44:00 <cmatheus> path: if the state has changed but the name stays the same there's an issue

Patrick Hayes: if the state has changed but the name stays the same there's an issue

15:44:04 <ericP> AndyS, true

Eric Prud'hommeaux: AndyS, true

15:44:32 <AndyS> ?? :datasetbase rdb2rdf:defaultGraph [ .... ]

Andy Seaborne: ?? :datasetbase rdb2rdf:defaultGraph [ .... ]

15:44:37 <cmatheus> davidwood: if you hash a serialization of a graph and you tweak some property of the graph you get a different hash

David Wood: if you hash a serialization of a graph and you tweak some property of the graph you get a different hash

15:44:45 <ericP> i'd expect that, if i were e.g. reading a test manifest and find n graphs asserted to be the default graph, i'd put them all into the default graph

Eric Prud'hommeaux: i'd expect that, if i were e.g. reading a test manifest and find n graphs asserted to be the default graph, i'd put them all into the default graph

15:44:50 <cmatheus> path: isn't that true of any hashable argument

Patrick Hayes: isn't that true of any hashable argument

15:44:55 <MacTed> q+

Ted Thibodeau: q+

15:44:56 <cmatheus> davidwood:  true

David Wood: true

15:44:57 <Zakim> +Vicki

Zakim IRC Bot: +Vicki

15:45:00 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

15:45:00 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

15:45:05 <AZ> zakim, I am Vicki

Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, I am Vicki

15:45:05 <Zakim> ok, AZ, I now associate you with Vicki

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, AZ, I now associate you with Vicki

15:45:14 <mischat> as it stands we can only sign serialisations anyway

Mischa Tuffield: as it stands we can only sign serialisations anyway

15:45:16 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

15:45:17 <gavinc> really? graphs are madness? ;)

Gavin Carothers: really? graphs are madness? ;)

15:45:26 <cmatheus> the naming is metadata that's outside of the graph -- get recursion problem of meta data, and meta-meta data and there lies madness

the naming is metadata that's outside of the graph -- get recursion problem of meta data, and meta-meta data and there lies madness

15:46:02 <cmatheus> path: things that are named by uri's are changeable but we want the name to stay the same -- this raises a lot of issues for rdf that I don't think we can solve

Patrick Hayes: things that are named by uri's are changeable but we want the name to stay the same -- this raises a lot of issues for rdf that I don't think we can solve

15:46:10 <cmatheus> this would get very difficult

this would get very difficult

15:46:11 <AndyS> ARQ uses <urn:x-arq:DefaultGraph> which is very poor modeling but very useful (as per rdb2rdf UC)  GRAPH<urn:x-arq:DefaultGraph> {...} works :-)

Andy Seaborne: ARQ uses <urn:x-arq:DefaultGraph> which is very poor modeling but very useful (as per rdb2rdf UC) GRAPH<urn:x-arq:DefaultGraph> {...} works :-)

15:46:28 <cmatheus> davidwood:  if you change a graph you 've got a copy of a graph that's a very different thing

David Wood: if you change a graph you 've got a copy of a graph that's a very different thing

15:46:36 <davidwood> ack MacTed

David Wood: ack MacTed

15:46:39 <cmatheus> I think I agree with you  and it's not an issue

I think I agree with you and it's not an issue

15:46:46 <cygri> AndyS, that would work for us. We use rr:defaultGraph

Richard Cyganiak: AndyS, that would work for us. We use rr:defaultGraph

15:47:05 <cmatheus> MacTed: if we say once we name something that it never chances then we've got problems

Ted Thibodeau: if we say once we name something that it never chances then we've got problems

15:47:05 <AndyS> cygri, as property? As resource?

Andy Seaborne: cygri, as property? As resource?

15:47:17 <cmatheus> I've been the same person all my life but I've changed over time

I've been the same person all my life but I've changed over time

15:47:26 <PatH> Thi sis what we have the g-box/graph distinction for.

Patrick Hayes: Thi sis what we have the g-box/graph distinction for.

15:47:32 <cmatheus> the graph that describes me changes over time but it still describes me

the graph that describes me changes over time but it still describes me

15:47:48 <PatH> GRAPHS DO NOT CHANGE.

Patrick Hayes: GRAPHS DO NOT CHANGE.

15:47:49 <cygri> AndyS: <... some mapping rules ...> rr:targetGraph rr:defaultGraph.

Andy Seaborne: <... some mapping rules ...> rr:targetGraph rr:defaultGraph. [ Scribe Assist by Richard Cyganiak ]

15:47:54 <cmatheus> this is a problem that needs to be changed - immutability of descriptions needs to come into play soon

this is a problem that needs to be changed - immutability of descriptions needs to come into play soon

15:48:14 <cmatheus> need complete set of identifiers that nail down a document at a given point in time

need complete set of identifiers that nail down a document at a given point in time

15:48:17 <pchampin> q+

Pierre-Antoine Champin: q+

15:48:30 <cmatheus> I'm not comfortable I have gbox and gtext names right in my head yet

I'm not comfortable I have gbox and gtext names right in my head yet

15:48:48 <cmatheus> WHO'S TALKING PLEASE?

WHO'S TALKING PLEASE?

15:48:54 <PatH> Andy

Patrick Hayes: Andy

15:48:55 <cmatheus> thanks

thanks

15:49:37 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

15:49:45 <cmatheus> andys: in a perfect snapshot of the web (no changes, everything static) if you give a name to the graph which is a uri it needs to go to the same place

Andy Seaborne: in a perfect snapshot of the web (no changes, everything static) if you give a name to the graph which is a uri it needs to go to the same place

15:49:59 <PatH> Right, so default-graph is a property even in a static Web.

Patrick Hayes: Right, so default-graph is a property even in a static Web.

15:50:04 <cmatheus> that concept of the world doesn't work if you use a uri for the default graph

that concept of the world doesn't work if you use a uri for the default graph

15:50:13 <mischat> zakim, who is making noise ?

Mischa Tuffield: zakim, who is making noise ?

15:50:16 <davidwood> ack pchampin

David Wood: ack pchampin

15:50:26 <AZ> zakim, mute me

Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, mute me

15:50:26 <Zakim> Vicki should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Vicki should now be muted

15:50:49 <cmatheus> pchampin:  I agree with pat about the default graph.

Pierre-Antoine Champin: I agree with pat about the default graph.

15:50:52 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:50:52 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:50:56 <AndyS> cygri - rr:defaultGraph names what resource?  GET rr:defaultGraph --> ?

Andy Seaborne: cygri - rr:defaultGraph names what resource? GET rr:defaultGraph --> ?

15:50:59 <cmatheus> the problem comes from the misuse of the default graph

the problem comes from the misuse of the default graph

15:51:27 <cygri> AndyS, why presume that you can GET graph names?

Richard Cyganiak: AndyS, why presume that you can GET graph names?

15:51:32 <cmatheus> if you think of he default graph as a gbox then things work

if you think of he default graph as a gbox then things work

15:51:46 <cygri> AndyS, GET rr:defaultGraph, you get the R2RML vocabulary document

Richard Cyganiak: AndyS, GET rr:defaultGraph, you get the R2RML vocabulary document

15:51:52 <cmatheus> andys: it can be a gsnap and you can freeze everything

Andy Seaborne: it can be a gsnap and you can freeze everything

15:52:07 <cmatheus> davidwood: makes sense to me in a database context

David Wood: makes sense to me in a database context

15:52:22 <ericP> when do we care about naming the totality of a graph?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: when do we care about naming the totality of a graph?

15:52:25 <PatH> The issue, I think, is that if :Store is labile, then  ( :store rdf:defaultGraphIs :graph .) can change truthvalue when :store is updated.

Patrick Hayes: The issue, I think, is that if :Store is labile, then ( :store rdf:defaultGraphIs :graph .) can change truthvalue when :store is updated.

15:52:26 <ericP> defining inferential closure

Eric Prud'hommeaux: defining inferential closure

15:52:27 <mischat> +1 to pchampin explanation, i wonder why the RDF WG are worrying about the default graphs, surely these are triplestore/sparql related. and as far as I can tell are vendor specific in the world of triplestore

Mischa Tuffield: +1 to pchampin explanation, i wonder why the RDF WG are worrying about the default graphs, surely these are triplestore/sparql related. and as far as I can tell are vendor specific in the world of triplestore

15:52:28 <cmatheus> not true for rdf users who never use an rdf store

not true for rdf users who never use an rdf store

15:52:28 <ericP> writing tests

Eric Prud'hommeaux: writing tests

15:52:45 <AndyS> cygri, conceptually, names can be resolved.  I am asking if it is the name of a graph and so is GET <someURL> if it's http://

Andy Seaborne: cygri, conceptually, names can be resolved. I am asking if it is the name of a graph and so is GET <someURL> if it's http://

15:52:47 <cmatheus> there's danger in using terms that don't apply to larger community

there's danger in using terms that don't apply to larger community

15:52:51 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

15:53:13 <cmatheus> andys: we must keep in  mind that when we say graph sometimes we mean gbox, something gsnap

Andy Seaborne: we must keep in mind that when we say graph sometimes we mean gbox, something gsnap

15:53:23 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

15:53:48 <cmatheus> in this case I think it means gbox

in this case I think it means gbox

15:53:59 <davidwood> ack cygri

David Wood: ack cygri

15:54:05 <mischat> i guess when you execute a sparql query on a sparql store, you are getting results on a g-snap

Mischa Tuffield: i guess when you execute a sparql query on a sparql store, you are getting results on a g-snap

15:54:18 <cmatheus> cygri: in reply to Andy from earlier...

Richard Cyganiak: in reply to Andy from earlier...

15:54:34 <cmatheus> I don't think there's an assumption that the graph name has to resolve to the graph

I don't think there's an assumption that the graph name has to resolve to the graph

15:54:44 <cmatheus> not sure what the basis is for such a presumption

not sure what the basis is for such a presumption

15:54:49 <PatH> RDG graph is (defined to be) a set, in the mathematical sense of "set". Mathematical sets don't change.

Patrick Hayes: RDG graph is (defined to be) a set, in the mathematical sense of "set". Mathematical sets don't change.

15:55:11 <cmatheus> from that point of view I don't see a problem with assigning a uri to a graph

from that point of view I don't see a problem with assigning a uri to a graph

15:55:14 <AndyS> q+

Andy Seaborne: q+

15:55:27 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC

Richard Cyganiak: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC

15:55:28 <cmatheus> another point, maybe it's good to think back to use cases

another point, maybe it's good to think back to use cases

15:55:42 <cmatheus> there's a wiki page from months ago of really good use cases

there's a wiki page from months ago of really good use cases

15:55:55 <yvesr> +1 to think back of use cases

Yves Raimond: +1 to think back of use cases

15:55:58 <cmatheus> SPAQRL as it stands can address most of these use case

SPAQRL as it stands can address most of these use case

15:56:18 <pchampin> well, Richard, http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-http-rdf-update/ suggests that graph URIs *could*, in some situations, resolve to the content of the graph

Pierre-Antoine Champin: well, Richard, http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-http-rdf-update/ suggests that graph URIs *could*, in some situations, resolve to the content of the graph

15:56:24 <cmatheus> might be goog to see which use cases break when we use the SPARQL design

might be goog to see which use cases break when we use the SPARQL design

15:56:33 <davidwood> ack PatH

David Wood: ack PatH

15:56:35 <PatH> goog, but not good.

Patrick Hayes: goog, but not good.

15:56:45 <cmatheus> davidwood: this is fundamentally the argument -- theory vs. practice

David Wood: this is fundamentally the argument -- theory vs. practice

15:56:55 <cmatheus> path: I pretty much agree with Richard

Patrick Hayes: I pretty much agree with Richard

15:57:22 <AndyS> ack me

Andy Seaborne: ack me

15:57:44 <AndyS> (was just about default graph -- different from other naming UCs)

Andy Seaborne: (was just about default graph -- different from other naming UCs)

15:57:45 <cmatheus> however, if we introduce rdf terminology for the default graph then we can say something is the "default graph" -- then its truth value can change when the data stored is changed

however, if we introduce rdf terminology for the default graph then we can say something is the "default graph" -- then its truth value can change when the data stored is changed

15:57:53 <cmatheus> cygri; is this always the case?

cygri; isn't this always the case?

15:58:02 <cmatheus> path: no

Patrick Hayes: no

15:58:05 <yvesr> linked data changes a lot...

Yves Raimond: linked data changes a lot...

15:58:10 <yvesr> like any other data on the web

Yves Raimond: like any other data on the web

15:58:11 <pchampin> s/is this/isn't this/
15:58:18 <yvesr> look at wikipedia!

Yves Raimond: look at wikipedia!

15:58:24 <cmatheus> if these things are going to be changing their state very rapidly what's the point of creating them

if these things are going to be changing their state very rapidly what's the point of creating them

15:58:27 <Zakim> -tomayac

Zakim IRC Bot: -tomayac

15:58:51 <cmatheus> cygri: even if a triple is valid for only a few milliseconds that's fine if that's what you need

Richard Cyganiak: even if a triple is valid for only a few milliseconds that's fine if that's what you need

15:58:52 <AndyS> FROM <graph1> => one default graph ... elsewhere FROM <graph2> ==> different default graph ... even in a fully static world.

Andy Seaborne: FROM <graph1> => one default graph ... elsewhere FROM <graph2> ==> different default graph ... even in a fully static world.

15:58:58 <cmatheus> path: let me back off and agree

Patrick Hayes: let me back off and agree

15:59:20 <cmatheus> we shouldn't make it illegal but we should draw attention to it and warn people about it

we shouldn't make it illegal but we should draw attention to it and warn people about it

15:59:46 <cmatheus> triples that change quickly is different from the original intended use of RDF

triples that change quickly is different from the original intended use of RDF

16:00:07 <cmatheus> davidwood: five years ago rdf databases were read optimized

David Wood: five years ago rdf databases were read optimized

16:00:16 <cmatheus> we don't see that in the world now at all

we don't see that in the world now at all

16:00:24 <Zakim> -yvesr

Zakim IRC Bot: -yvesr

16:00:34 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

16:00:37 <AlexHall> we store a lot of system state in an rdf database, and it's subject to frequent change. we also don't tend to expose that mutable state outside our system.

Alex Hall: we store a lot of system state in an rdf database, and it's subject to frequent change. we also don't tend to expose that mutable state outside our system.

16:00:41 <cmatheus> there are massive deletes, rapid writes.  this has been a sea change in the way people use rdf in the last few years

there are massive deletes, rapid writes. this has been a sea change in the way people use rdf in the last few years

16:00:51 <pchampin> q+

Pierre-Antoine Champin: q+

16:01:04 <cmatheus> path: okay, but if we do this and start using this terminology a lot of people are going to be surprised

Patrick Hayes: okay, but if we do this and start using this terminology a lot of people are going to be surprised

16:01:14 <mischat> we are current doing > 2000 queries/updates per second on our live sparql store

Mischa Tuffield: we are current doing > 2000 queries/updates per second on our live sparql store

16:01:20 <LeeF> I think it might be useful to have test cases that exhibit the difference between these two approaches to terminology -- what actually changes?

Lee Feigenbaum: I think it might be useful to have test cases that exhibit the difference between these two approaches to terminology -- what actually changes?

16:01:29 <Zakim> -NickH

Zakim IRC Bot: -NickH

16:01:59 <cmatheus> path: the gbox and gsnap concepts we have we defined and gsnaps are the mathematical graphs

Patrick Hayes: the gbox and gsnap concepts we have we defined and gsnaps are the mathematical graphs

16:02:14 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

16:02:21 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

16:02:22 <cmatheus> davidwood: we mean graph differently when we talk about gbox, gsnap and gtext

David Wood: we mean graph differently when we talk about gbox, gsnap and gtext

16:02:25 <pchampin> q-

Pierre-Antoine Champin: q-

16:02:39 <davidwood> ack cygri

David Wood: ack cygri

16:02:48 <cmatheus> cygri: I strongly agree

Richard Cyganiak: I strongly agree

16:03:11 <cmatheus> big problem here.  have two conflicting uses of the word graph

big problem here. have two conflicting uses of the word graph

16:03:30 <cmatheus> rdf graph - an immutable set

rdf graph - an immutable set

16:03:47 <AndyS> q+

Andy Seaborne: q+

16:03:55 <cmatheus> named graph in sparql - a graph is something mutable.  can update it and it still has the same name

named graph in sparql - a graph is something mutable. can update it and it still has the same name

16:03:59 <LeeF> In the Anzo APIs, we use the term "named graph" for the mutable things

Lee Feigenbaum: In the Anzo APIs, we use the term "named graph" for the mutable things

16:04:03 <cmatheus> there's confusion in the two uses of the word graph

there's confusion in the two uses of the word graph

16:04:20 <davidwood> ack AndyS

David Wood: ack AndyS

16:04:23 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

16:04:24 <iand> might be worth considering the sparql graph as being a container of triples

Ian Davis: might be worth considering the sparql graph as being a container of triples

16:04:37 <zwu2> I doubt end users care about these differences. they probably don't even realize the differences

Zhe Wu: I doubt end users care about these differences. they probably don't even realize the differences

16:04:40 <cmatheus> these are fundamentally different in what they mean and we need to do some about this

these are fundamentally different in what they mean and we need to do some about this

16:04:53 <cmatheus> andys; named graph are not behaving like the default graph

andys; named graph are not behaving like the default graph

16:05:27 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

16:05:28 <cmatheus> the default graph is relative to the store and are unlike what uris give us

the default graph is relative to the store and are unlike what uris give us

16:05:29 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

16:05:31 <iand> yes

Ian Davis: yes

16:05:37 <cmatheus> davidwood: I might challenge that

David Wood: I might challenge that

16:06:09 <cmatheus> iand - can you discuss your expectations on this

iand - can you discuss your expectations on this

16:06:09 <mischat> indeed AndyS and different stores have implemented their defaults graphs in different ways

Mischa Tuffield: indeed AndyS and different stores have implemented their defaults graphs in different ways

16:06:14 <PatH> hard to hear

Patrick Hayes: hard to hear

16:06:18 <cygri> AndyS: i think i don't fully agree. <foo> in my graph and in your graph can be different

Andy Seaborne: i think i don't fully agree. <foo> in my graph and in your graph can be different [ Scribe Assist by Richard Cyganiak ]

16:06:45 <cmatheus> iand:  garble grable...

Ian Davis: garble grable...

16:07:00 <AndyS> cygri - true can be different but consider completely static world

Andy Seaborne: cygri - true can be different but consider completely static world

16:07:02 <cmatheus> what does named graph identifier mean?

what does named graph identifier mean?

16:07:09 <cmatheus> a tag for the graph or an identified for the graph?

a tag for the graph or an identified for the graph?

16:07:21 <AndyS> ... default graph different  - not same info

Andy Seaborne: ... default graph different - not same info

16:07:23 <AndyS> ...  Example: FROM <graph1> => one default graph ... elsewhere FROM <graph2> => different default graph

Andy Seaborne: ... Example: FROM <graph1> => one default graph ... elsewhere FROM <graph2> => different default graph

16:07:28 <cmatheus> if it's an identifier then you should expect the same graph wherever you are

if it's an identifier then you should expect the same graph wherever you are

16:07:28 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

16:07:49 <cmatheus> if it's a tag you don't have the expectation that it is the same graph

if it's a tag you don't have the expectation that it is the same graph

16:07:52 <davidwood> ack PatH

David Wood: ack PatH

16:08:08 <davidwood> ack cygri

David Wood: ack cygri

16:08:29 <cmatheus> cygri: what Ian mentioned is different from the one I brought up earlier

Richard Cyganiak: what Ian mentioned is different from the one I brought up earlier

16:09:00 <cmatheus> regardless of whether you consider the iri in a named graph as an identifier or a tag there's still the fact the named graphs name things you can update

regardless of whether you consider the iri in a named graph as an identifier or a tag there's still the fact the named graphs name things you can update

16:09:07 <cmatheus> rdf graphs are not like that

rdf graphs are not like that

16:09:13 <AlexHall> problem is, the notion of "default graph" is always relative to some context

Alex Hall: problem is, the notion of "default graph" is always relative to some context

16:09:14 <AndyS> mischat - yes - dft graph as union of named graphs shows its different in different places as well.

Andy Seaborne: mischat - yes - dft graph as union of named graphs shows its different in different places as well.

16:09:34 <pchampin> but we can still name g-snaps and g-boxes, can't we??

Pierre-Antoine Champin: but we can still name g-snaps and g-boxes, can't we??

16:09:35 <cmatheus> rdf graphs are more like gboxs and named graphs are more like gsnaps

rdf graphs are more like gboxs and named graphs are more like gsnaps

16:09:50 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

16:09:52 <AndyS> ... makes me nervous about it having a URI : property or class, not individual.

Andy Seaborne: ... makes me nervous about it having a URI : property or class, not individual.

16:09:54 <cmatheus> SPARQL doesn't make any assumptions about how you use the graph

SPARQL doesn't make any assumptions about how you use the graph

16:10:00 <pchampin> q+

Pierre-Antoine Champin: q+

16:10:25 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

16:10:26 <cmatheus> I hear a number of people here pushing to the position where a global iri would be used in this name graph

I hear a number of people here pushing to the position where a global iri would be used in this name graph

16:10:53 <PatH> RIGHT

Patrick Hayes: RIGHT

16:11:01 <pchampin> ack me

Pierre-Antoine Champin: ack me

16:11:07 <cmatheus> davidwood:maybe we need to talk about naming gsnaps and gboxes in different ways

David Wood: maybe we need to talk about naming gsnaps and gboxes in different ways

16:11:13 <iand> q+ mirroring data and portability of sparql (will type not use phone)

Ian Davis: q+ mirroring data and portability of sparql (will type not use phone)

16:11:23 <iand> q+ to ask about mirroring data and portability of sparql (will type not use phone)

Ian Davis: q+ to ask about mirroring data and portability of sparql (will type not use phone)

16:11:44 <cmatheus> pchampin: it sounded like Richard was claiming we could only name one kind of graph but I think we can name both

Pierre-Antoine Champin: it sounded like Richard was claiming we could only name one kind of graph but I think we can name both

16:11:59 <cmatheus> but we need to keep these notion separate

but we need to keep these notion separate

16:12:08 <mischat> i would like the term graph used in sparql as is, as it is used in practice, and for the RDF WG to use less ambiguous terms as spec'ed out in our previous conversation re:  g-*. This discussion should probably be kept to the concepts document, and in any quad based serialisation

Mischa Tuffield: i would like the term graph used in sparql as is, as it is used in practice, and for the RDF WG to use less ambiguous terms as spec'ed out in our previous conversation re: g-*. This discussion should probably be kept to the concepts document, and in any quad based serialisation

16:12:15 <cmatheus> I agree that sparql doesn't make an assumption about the use of iri

I agree that sparql doesn't make an assumption about the use of iri

16:12:34 <cmatheus> but if you have control of an iri you can make the graph available when getting the iri

but if you have control of an iri you can make the graph available when getting the iri

16:13:03 <cmatheus> in sparql the iri is homogenous to a resource in the query

in sparql the iri is homogenous to a resource in the query

16:13:48 <cmatheus> we are naming graphs with a resource not an iri

we are naming graphs with a resource not an iri

16:14:05 <cmatheus> MacTed: you can name anything with a uri

Ted Thibodeau: you can name anything with a uri

16:14:07 <gavinc> "A "g-snap" as an idealized snapshot of a g-box; "

Gavin Carothers: "A "g-snap" as an idealized snapshot of a g-box; "

16:14:11 <cmatheus> davidwood: but do you have to?

David Wood: but do you have to?

16:14:16 <davidwood> ack PatH

David Wood: ack PatH

16:14:32 <pchampin> you can name a g-snap with a literal (the corresponding g-text)

Pierre-Antoine Champin: you can name a g-snap with a literal (the corresponding g-text)

16:14:33 <cmatheus> path: this discussion could have taken place in any context having to do with computer science

Patrick Hayes: this discussion could have taken place in any context having to do with computer science

16:14:45 <cmatheus> we have a dilema

we have a dilema

16:14:57 <cmatheus> 1st - I agree you can name anything with an iri

1st - I agree you can name anything with an iri

16:15:00 <iand> are we just saying that there is a property sparql:graph that has a domain of sparql:Dataset and range of rdf:gsnap

Ian Davis: are we just saying that there is a property sparql:graph that has a domain of sparql:Dataset and range of rdf:gsnap

16:15:06 <gavinc> Name g-boxes, if you want to name a specific g-snap make a new damn g-box and never change it's contents

Gavin Carothers: Name g-boxes, if you want to name a specific g-snap make a new damn g-box and never change it's contents

16:15:16 <cmatheus> most people will use iri's to refer to graphs and others with use them for gboxes

most people will use iri's to refer to graphs and others with use them for gboxes

16:15:18 <MacTed> the issue seems to be -- "how do we change 'named graph' everywhere to 'named g-box'?"

Ted Thibodeau: the issue seems to be -- "how do we change 'named graph' everywhere to 'named g-box'?"

16:15:33 <cmatheus> can't have different conventions for naming the two - people won't use it

can't have different conventions for naming the two - people won't use it

16:15:48 <cmatheus> people will want to use same name for the two types of graph

people will want to use same name for the two types of graph

16:15:49 <Zakim> -iand

Zakim IRC Bot: -iand

16:15:49 <MacTed> actually...  currently "named graph" is used for both, g-snaps and g-boxes

Ted Thibodeau: actually... currently "named graph" is used for both, g-snaps and g-boxes

16:16:00 <cmatheus> the ambiguity of naming is going to be with us in the real world

the ambiguity of naming is going to be with us in the real world

16:16:18 <cmatheus> next thought - maybe we can have a different type of property

next thought - maybe we can have a different type of property

16:16:21 <davidwood> PatH: Ambiguity of naming will be with us whether we like it or not.

Patrick Hayes: Ambiguity of naming will be with us whether we like it or not. [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ]

16:16:22 <Zakim> +iand

Zakim IRC Bot: +iand

16:16:37 <cmatheus> some apply to the state some apply to the object transcending the state

some apply to the state some apply to the object transcending the state

16:17:03 <pchampin> so you mean that property rdf:numberOfTriples would actually mean "number of triples in the current state of that g-box" ?

Pierre-Antoine Champin: so you mean that property rdf:numberOfTriples would actually mean "number of triples in the current state of that g-box" ?

16:17:04 <cmatheus> having coercion for the property isn't going to work

having coercion for the property isn't going to work

16:17:21 <cmatheus> take rdf:type -- we would have to have two different types, one for object one for state

take rdf:type -- we would have to have two different types, one for object one for state

16:17:27 <iand> +1 to macted's suggestion of changing "named graph" to "named gbox"

Ian Davis: +1 to macted's suggestion of changing "named graph" to "named gbox"

16:17:38 <gavinc> "we should learn to cope with ambiguity in URIs"

Gavin Carothers: "we should learn to cope with ambiguity in URIs"

16:17:40 <cmatheus> if a name is used ambiguously there's nothing we can do about it

if a name is used ambiguously there's nothing we can do about it

16:17:49 <PatH> gavinc :-)

Patrick Hayes: gavinc :-)

16:18:24 <mischat> jeni blogged about this stuff yesterday, worth a read http://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/159

Mischa Tuffield: jeni blogged about this stuff yesterday, worth a read http://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/159

16:18:43 <cmatheus> cmatheus: I need to end scribing here, sorry

Christopher Matheus: I need to end scribing here, sorry

16:18:48 <Zakim> -cygri

Zakim IRC Bot: -cygri

16:18:54 <cmatheus> I'll wait until later tomorrow to edit the minutes

I'll wait until later tomorrow to edit the minutes

16:18:55 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

16:18:57 <Zakim> -zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2

16:18:58 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer

Zakim IRC Bot: -Scott_Bauer

16:19:01 <mbrunati> hi guys

Matteo Brunati: hi guys

16:19:04 <Zakim> -AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ

16:19:05 <Zakim> -mbrunati

Zakim IRC Bot: -mbrunati

16:19:06 <Zakim> -AlexHall

Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexHall

16:19:11 <Zakim> -mischat_

Zakim IRC Bot: -mischat_

16:19:17 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

16:19:19 <Zakim> -cmatheus

Zakim IRC Bot: -cmatheus

16:19:21 <Zakim> -gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc

16:19:26 <Zakim> -LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF

16:19:38 <PatH> Current best guess for terminology is 'graph resource' for anything mutable that emits graph representations; 'graph' for snaps, and 'graph representation' for g-texts. THis fits with the REST terminology and allows the use of 'graph' for them all when people are being sloppy.

Patrick Hayes: Current best guess for terminology is 'graph resource' for anything mutable that emits graph representations; 'graph' for snaps, and 'graph representation' for g-texts. THis fits with the REST terminology and allows the use of 'graph' for them all when people are being sloppy.

16:19:40 <gavinc>  Process question.... how do we publish a WD of Turtle? :D

Gavin Carothers: Process question.... how do we publish a WD of Turtle? :D

16:20:05 <davidwood> Ask Sandro :)

David Wood: Ask Sandro :)

16:20:14 <gavinc> He said not to if we were using Respec ;)

Gavin Carothers: He said not to if we were using Respec ;)

16:20:23 <Zakim> -PatHayes

Zakim IRC Bot: -PatHayes

16:20:45 <pchampin> ...but we will however ;)

Pierre-Antoine Champin: ...but we will however ;)

16:20:49 <AndyS> +1 to PatH (I think ...)

Andy Seaborne: +1 to PatH (I think ...)

16:21:12 <gavinc> +1 to PatH

Gavin Carothers: +1 to PatH

16:21:21 <mischat> does the 'graph' for snaps match with the GRAPH verb in sparql

Mischa Tuffield: does the 'graph' for snaps match with the GRAPH verb in sparql

16:21:37 <mischat> i guess it does when thinking about queries, not sure when thinking about updates

Mischa Tuffield: i guess it does when thinking about queries, not sure when thinking about updates

16:22:18 <AndyS> query usage and update usage are different ... query world is static so g-box/g-snap binding is fixed

Andy Seaborne: query usage and update usage are different ... query world is static so g-box/g-snap binding is fixed

16:22:26 <Zakim> -iand

Zakim IRC Bot: -iand

16:23:10 <AndyS> SPARQL 1.0 does not fix GRAPH uri (much careful wording)  and the wording is not designed for SPARQL 1.1 update

Andy Seaborne: SPARQL 1.0 does not fix GRAPH uri (much careful wording) and the wording is not designed for SPARQL 1.1 update

16:23:12 <gavinc> the GRAPH verb means a graph resource in UPDATE and a graph in SELECT/CONSTRUCT

Gavin Carothers: the GRAPH verb means a graph resource in UPDATE and a graph in SELECT/CONSTRUCT

16:23:18 <gavinc> ?

Gavin Carothers: ?

16:24:29 <AndyS> Best rewording I can make is SPARQL 1.0 "associates" a URI with a g-snap.  Different apps associate differently (name of web location for data, unique nema for action of reading).

Andy Seaborne: Best rewording I can make is SPARQL 1.0 "associates" a URI with a g-snap. Different apps associate differently (name of web location for data, unique nema for action of reading).

16:24:47 <gavinc> Anyway, be around later today and will tag a revision for the WD for the Turtle document

Gavin Carothers: Anyway, be around later today and will tag a revision for the WD for the Turtle document

16:25:18 <AndyS> In update there is also (URI, g-box) pair which is definitely a g-box in local store.

Andy Seaborne: In update there is also (URI, g-box) pair which is definitely a g-box in local store.

16:25:26 <davidwood> gavinc, see http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/ReSpec.js/documentation.html#configuration to change the specStatus to WD

David Wood: gavinc, see http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/ReSpec.js/documentation.html#configuration to change the specStatus to WD

16:25:28 <pchampin> agreed

Pierre-Antoine Champin: agreed

16:26:20 <AndyS> 'cos if you change it, you see the change but someone else's store does not change (or generally people get upset :-)

Andy Seaborne: 'cos if you change it, you see the change but someone else's store does not change (or generally people get upset :-)

16:26:38 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?

David Wood: Zakim, who is here?

16:26:46 <gavinc> Yeah, know how to do that David, what to do AFTER that is somewhat confusing ;)

Gavin Carothers: Yeah, know how to do that David, what to do AFTER that is somewhat confusing ;)

16:26:58 <gavinc> Will have a tagged HTML document by the end of today

Gavin Carothers: Will have a tagged HTML document by the end of today

16:27:09 <davidwood> gavinc, is there anything else to do?  I think it will auto-update the header.

David Wood: gavinc, is there anything else to do? I think it will auto-update the header.

16:27:31 <davidwood> "The specStatus is used to pick the base style sheet, as well as to configure various parts of the specification's header and Status of this Document. "

David Wood: "The specStatus is used to pick the base style sheet, as well as to configure various parts of the specification's header and Status of this Document. "

16:27:52 <AndyS> gavinc, when you find out how to pub respec, coudl yo ulet me know as I have a respec note to do.  There is someway to get pure HTML out apparently.

Andy Seaborne: gavinc, when you find out how to pub respec, coudl yo ulet me know as I have a respec note to do. There is someway to get pure HTML out apparently.

16:28:07 <gavinc> Yeah, that will just leave it in HG and using javascript

Gavin Carothers: Yeah, that will just leave it in HG and using javascript

16:28:16 <gavinc> step 2 is get some XHTML to publish

Gavin Carothers: step 2 is get some XHTML to publish

16:29:57 <gavinc> it's First Public Working Draft isn't it?

Gavin Carothers: it's First Public Working Draft isn't it?

16:30:04 <gavinc> some process wonk around?

Gavin Carothers: some process wonk around?

16:30:10 <davidwood> Yes, I suppose so

David Wood: Yes, I suppose so

16:30:40 <Zakim> -davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: -davidwood

16:31:07 <davidwood> gavinc, I'm still reading the Respec page...

David Wood: gavinc, I'm still reading the Respec page...

16:31:40 <davidwood> RRSAgent, draft minutes

David Wood: RRSAgent, draft minutes

16:31:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/06-rdf-wg-minutes.html davidwood

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/06-rdf-wg-minutes.html davidwood

16:31:48 <gavinc> sandro, you around?

Gavin Carothers: sandro, you around?

16:32:11 <davidwood> gavinc, http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/ReSpec.js/documentation.html#saving-the-generated-specification

David Wood: gavinc, http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/ReSpec.js/documentation.html#saving-the-generated-specification

16:32:37 <davidwood> "The solution that is used here is that you hit the Ctrl+Shift+Alt+S key combination (this is subject to change until we agree on an option we all like). That will show a menu offering to either "Save as HTML", "Save as HTML (Source)", "Save as XHTML", or "Save as XHTML (Source)". You can hit Esc to hide it."

David Wood: "The solution that is used here is that you hit the Ctrl+Shift+Alt+S key combination (this is subject to change until we agree on an option we all like). That will show a menu offering to either "Save as HTML", "Save as HTML (Source)", "Save as XHTML", or "Save as XHTML (Source)". You can hit Esc to hide it."

16:32:44 <gavinc> Yeah

Gavin Carothers: Yeah

16:33:06 <davidwood> Then I suppose you put it into the WG's mercurial repo.

David Wood: Then I suppose you put it into the WG's mercurial repo.

16:33:21 <gavinc> mmmm

Gavin Carothers: mmmm

16:34:43 <davidwood> Do you have the details for that?  There was an email to the list...

David Wood: Do you have the details for that? There was an email to the list...

16:34:54 <gavinc> Yeah, yeah

Gavin Carothers: Yeah, yeah

16:35:07 <gavinc> it's where the document is living

Gavin Carothers: it's where the document is living

16:35:43 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, pchampin, in SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: disconnecting the lone participant, pchampin, in SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

16:35:44 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended

16:35:50 <Zakim> ... PatHayes, cygri, +33.4.72.69.aacc, NickH, AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: ... PatHayes, cygri, +33.4.72.69.aacc, NickH, AZ

16:36:47 <davidwood> I think Sandro is happy to deal with publishing HTML to a URI :)

David Wood: I think Sandro is happy to deal with publishing HTML to a URI :)

16:37:44 <gavinc> the short name is Turtle yes?

Gavin Carothers: the short name is Turtle yes?

16:37:52 <davidwood> Yes

David Wood: Yes

16:38:38 <davidwood> I suggest saving the document from Respc to XHTML, adding the saved file into the WG's hg repo and telling Sandro he needs to publish it to the appropriate URL.  Does that work for you?

David Wood: I suggest saving the document from Respc to XHTML, adding the saved file into the WG's hg repo and telling Sandro he needs to publish it to the appropriate URL. Does that work for you?

16:38:49 <gavinc> yep yep

Gavin Carothers: yep yep

16:38:55 <gavinc> I think :D

Gavin Carothers: I think :D

16:39:16 <davidwood> Richard's message with hg instructions is at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Jun/0012.html

David Wood: Richard's message with hg instructions is at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Jun/0012.html

16:39:24 <gavinc> Yeah, I have hg all working

Gavin Carothers: Yeah, I have hg all working

16:39:28 <davidwood> oh, good

David Wood: oh, good

16:39:29 <gavinc> that's how we've been editing

Gavin Carothers: that's how we've been editing

16:39:38 <gavinc> and publishing EDs

Gavin Carothers: and publishing EDs

16:40:10 <davidwood> We'll all learn something about this as you do it.  Isn't it nice to be first? :)

David Wood: We'll all learn something about this as you do it. Isn't it nice to be first? :)

16:41:52 <gavinc> Oh

Gavin Carothers: Oh

16:41:53 <gavinc> damn

Gavin Carothers: damn

16:42:01 <gavinc> still have to fix biblio DB

Gavin Carothers: still have to fix biblio DB

16:43:57 <davidwood> oops

David Wood: oops

17:01:52 <gavinc> Victory! http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/Turtle-FPWD/rdf-turtle/index.html

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Gavin Carothers: Victory! http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/Turtle-FPWD/rdf-turtle/index.html

17:02:55 <davidwood> gavinc, Thanks!

David Wood: gavinc, Thanks!

17:03:10 <gavinc> now to save the XHTML

Gavin Carothers: now to save the XHTML

17:07:55 <gavinc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/built-xhtml/FPWD.html built XHTML

Gavin Carothers: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/built-xhtml/FPWD.html built XHTML

17:08:23 <ericP> gavinc, will you be online later to chat about turtle?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: gavinc, will you be online later to chat about turtle?

17:08:35 <ericP> (editing details)

Eric Prud'hommeaux: (editing details)

17:08:39 <gavinc> Yes, taking kids to train park, back in the afternoon

Gavin Carothers: Yes, taking kids to train park, back in the afternoon

17:08:43 <ericP> cool

Eric Prud'hommeaux: cool

17:09:40 <ericP> seen the train museum one stop north of san jose on caltrain?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: seen the train museum one stop north of san jose on caltrain?

17:10:03 <gavinc> Yep!

Gavin Carothers: Yep!

17:17:16 <ericP> i always try to make connections through there. fabulously interesting and low-key museum

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Eric Prud'hommeaux: i always try to make connections through there. fabulously interesting and low-key museum

17:18:26 <ericP> gavinc, should i pester you or ralph about topquadrant tech for embedding sparql query results in html?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: gavinc, should i pester you or ralph about topquadrant tech for embedding sparql query results in html?

20:54:21 <ericP> gavinc, back?

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Eric Prud'hommeaux: gavinc, back?

21:46:01 <gavinc> Yes

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Gavin Carothers: Yes

21:46:03 <gavinc> ;)

Gavin Carothers: ;)

21:46:30 <gavinc> You here?

Gavin Carothers: You here?

21:51:02 <gavinc> ericP, ping!

Gavin Carothers: ericP, ping!

21:51:42 <ericP> heya

Eric Prud'hommeaux: heya

21:51:57 <ericP> sounds like if we want to fix stuff in turtle, we should do it tonight

Eric Prud'hommeaux: sounds like if we want to fix stuff in turtle, we should do it tonight

21:52:31 <gavinc> at least before a FPWD, yeah, ... though there is one checked in now ;)

Gavin Carothers: at least before a FPWD, yeah, ... though there is one checked in now ;)

21:53:59 <gavinc> One current oddity is that parts of the document (mostly the abstract at this point) talk about how compatable with N3 Turtle is, where as the compared to N3 section now (correctly?) points out that while N3 was the largest input into Turtle that compatibility isn't really a goal of Turtle any longer

Gavin Carothers: One current oddity is that parts of the document (mostly the abstract at this point) talk about how compatable with N3 Turtle is, where as the compared to N3 section now (correctly?) points out that while N3 was the largest input into Turtle that compatibility isn't really a goal of Turtle any longer

21:54:41 <gavinc> The table for the BNF is still a bit of a mess, never did get yacker to generate what you had from before (Maybe it was hand done after yacker?)

Gavin Carothers: The table for the BNF is still a bit of a mess, never did get yacker to generate what you had from before (Maybe it was hand done after yacker?)

21:56:20 <gavinc> Also still have the are we defining N-Triples as an appendix inside Turtle or as a separate document

Gavin Carothers: Also still have the are we defining N-Triples as an appendix inside Turtle or as a separate document

22:12:25 <ericP> did it

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Eric Prud'hommeaux: did it

22:12:55 <ericP> did the document get moved to a new place? or do we still edit what we've been editing?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: did the document get moved to a new place? or do we still edit what we've been editing?

22:13:07 <gavinc> same place

Gavin Carothers: same place

22:15:26 <ericP> cool

Eric Prud'hommeaux: cool

22:16:37 <gavinc> the one tagged for the CfC is http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/Turtle-FPWD/rdf-turtle/index.html but the tip is back to an ED for more editing

Gavin Carothers: the one tagged for the CfC is http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/Turtle-FPWD/rdf-turtle/index.html but the tip is back to an ED for more editing

22:28:03 <ericP> should i dink with the grammar tonight?

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Eric Prud'hommeaux: should i dink with the grammar tonight?

22:31:45 <gavinc> Yeah, I think the HTML needs help

Gavin Carothers: Yeah, I think the HTML needs help

22:32:03 <gavinc> I didn't know if I was missing something in how to get yacker to what you had it do

Gavin Carothers: I didn't know if I was missing something in how to get yacker to what you had it do

22:32:14 <gavinc> or if all the numbering and terminal spliting was done by hand

Gavin Carothers: or if all the numbering and terminal spliting was done by hand

22:32:53 <gavinc> Did go so far as to spend about 3 hours seeing if I could parse the EBNF directly in javascript and output the HTML that way ;)

Gavin Carothers: Did go so far as to spend about 3 hours seeing if I could parse the EBNF directly in javascript and output the HTML that way ;)

22:32:57 <gavinc> then I thought better of it

Gavin Carothers: then I thought better of it



Formatted by CommonScribe


This revision (#3) generated 2011-07-13 15:56:41 UTC by 'tthibodeau', comments: 'corrected a couple attributions'