RDF Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 23 March 2011

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.23
Seen
Alex Hall, Andy Seaborne, Antoine Zimmermann, Axel Polleres, David Wood, Fabien Gandon, Ivan Herman, Jean-François Baget, Jeremy Carroll, Lee Feigenbaum, Manu Sporny, Mischa Tuffield, Nathan Rixham, Olivier Corby, Patrick Hayes, Peter Patel-Schneider, Richard Cyganiak, Sandro Hawke, Souripriya Das, Thomas Steiner, Unknown Tony, William Waites, Zhe Wu
Chair
David Wood
Scribe
Jeremy Carroll
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. Minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-03-16 accepted link
Topics

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14:58:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/23-rdf-wg-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/23-rdf-wg-irc

14:58:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:58:54 <JeremyCarroll> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.23
14:58:56 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394

14:58:56 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes

14:58:57 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:58:57 <trackbot> Date: 23 March 2011
14:59:50 <davidwood> Chair: David Wood
14:59:51 <LeeF> zakim, this wil be rdf-wg

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, this wil be rdf-wg

14:59:51 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this wil be rdf-wg', LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this wil be rdf-wg', LeeF

14:59:54 <LeeF> zakim, this will be rdf-wg

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, this will be rdf-wg

14:59:54 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, LeeF

14:59:57 <LeeF> zakim, this will be rdfwg

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, this will be rdfwg

14:59:57 <Zakim> ok, LeeF, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, LeeF, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started

14:59:57 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby

Zakim IRC Bot: +OlivierCorby

14:59:59 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:00:00 <Zakim> + +1.415.369.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.415.369.aabb

15:00:03 <davidwood> Scribe: Jeremy Carroll

(Scribe set to Jeremy Carroll)

15:00:12 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, aabb is me

Zakim, aabb is me

15:00:12 <Zakim> +JeremyCarroll; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +JeremyCarroll; got it

15:00:13 <davidwood> Scribenick: JeremyCarroll
15:00:13 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller]

15:00:24 <davidwood> zakim, who is here?

David Wood: zakim, who is here?

15:00:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, +1.408.642.aaaa, OlivierCorby, JeremyCarroll

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, +1.408.642.aaaa, OlivierCorby, JeremyCarroll

15:00:28 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:00:34 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaler i sme

Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaler i sme

15:00:34 <Zakim> I don't understand 'IPCaler i sme', AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'IPCaler i sme', AndyS

15:00:42 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me

15:00:42 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

15:00:50 <Zakim> +??P13

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P13

15:00:52 <Zakim> +??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17

15:00:54 <Zakim> +??P14

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14

15:00:59 <manu1> zakim, I am ??P14

Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P14

15:00:59 <Zakim> +manu1; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +manu1; got it

15:01:11 <mischat_> zakim, ??P13 is me

Mischa Tuffield: zakim, ??P13 is me

15:01:13 <Zakim> +mischat_; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +mischat_; got it

15:01:18 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.212.aacc

15:01:28 <Zakim> +tomayac_

Zakim IRC Bot: +tomayac_

15:01:29 <zwu2> zakim, mute me

Zhe Wu: zakim, mute me

15:01:30 <Zakim> sorry, zwu2, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, zwu2, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

15:01:37 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute me

Zakim, mute me

15:01:37 <Zakim> sorry, JeremyCarroll, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, JeremyCarroll, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

15:01:38 <AlexHall> zakim, �01+1.443.212.aacc� is me

Alex Hall: zakim, �01+1.443.212.aacc� is me

15:01:39 <Zakim> sorry, AlexHall, I do not recognize a party named '�01+1.443.212.aacc�'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, AlexHall, I do not recognize a party named '�01+1.443.212.aacc�'

15:01:50 <Zakim> +PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH

15:01:51 <Zakim> -??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P17

15:01:57 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, JeremyCarroll is now JeremyCarroll

Zakim, JeremyCarroll is now JeremyCarroll

15:01:57 <Zakim> I don't understand 'JeremyCarroll is now JeremyCarroll', JeremyCarroll

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'JeremyCarroll is now JeremyCarroll', JeremyCarroll

15:02:05 <mischat> zakim, mute me

Mischa Tuffield: zakim, mute me

15:02:05 <Zakim> mischat_ should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: mischat_ should now be muted

15:02:13 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute JeremyCarroll

Zakim, mute JeremyCarroll

15:02:13 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll should now be muted

15:02:21 <Zakim> + +33.4.67.92.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: + +33.4.67.92.aadd

15:02:37 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip

15:02:39 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

15:02:41 <Zakim> +Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan

15:02:47 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?

Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is on the phone?

15:02:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, +1.408.642.aaaa, OlivierCorby, JeremyCarroll (muted), AndyS, mischat_ (muted), manu1, +1.443.212.aacc, tomayac_, PatH,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, +1.408.642.aaaa, OlivierCorby, JeremyCarroll (muted), AndyS, mischat_ (muted), manu1, +1.443.212.aacc, tomayac_, PatH,

15:02:57 <JFB> Zakim, +33.4.67.92.aadd is me

Jean-François Baget: Zakim, +33.4.67.92.aadd is me

15:02:58 <Zakim> ... +33.4.67.92.aadd, Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: ... +33.4.67.92.aadd, Ivan

15:03:07 <zwu2> zakim, +1.408.642.aaaa is me

Zhe Wu: zakim, +1.408.642.aaaa is me

15:03:12 <Zakim> +JFB; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +JFB; got it

15:03:28 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2; got it

15:03:28 <JFB> zakim, mute me

Jean-François Baget: zakim, mute me

15:03:34 <zwu2> zakim, mute me

Zhe Wu: zakim, mute me

15:03:36 <Zakim> +[Sophia]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[Sophia]

15:03:44 <Zakim> +??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17

15:03:48 <Zakim> JFB should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: JFB should now be muted

15:03:50 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should now be muted

15:03:53 <davidwood> zakim, who is here?

David Wood: zakim, who is here?

15:03:56 <mischat> zakim, unmute me

Mischa Tuffield: zakim, unmute me

15:03:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, zwu2 (muted), OlivierCorby, JeremyCarroll (muted), AndyS, mischat_ (muted), manu1, +1.443.212.aacc, tomayac_, PatH, JFB (muted), Ivan,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, zwu2 (muted), OlivierCorby, JeremyCarroll (muted), AndyS, mischat_ (muted), manu1, +1.443.212.aacc, tomayac_, PatH, JFB (muted), Ivan,

15:03:59 <AlexHall> zakim, 1.443.212.aacc is me

Alex Hall: zakim, 1.443.212.aacc is me

15:04:01 <mischat> zakim, unmute me

Mischa Tuffield: zakim, unmute me

15:04:04 <Zakim> ... [Sophia], ??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: ... [Sophia], ??P17

15:04:06 <FabGandon> zakim, [Sophia] is me

Fabien Gandon: zakim, [Sophia] is me

15:04:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, zwu2 (muted), OlivierCorby, JeremyCarroll (muted), AndyS, mischat_ (muted), manu1, +1.443.212.aacc, tomayac_, PatH, JFB (muted), Ivan,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, zwu2 (muted), OlivierCorby, JeremyCarroll (muted), AndyS, mischat_ (muted), manu1, +1.443.212.aacc, tomayac_, PatH, JFB (muted), Ivan,

15:04:19 <Zakim> ... [Sophia], ??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: ... [Sophia], ??P17

15:04:20 <manu1> zakim, who is making noise?

Manu Sporny: zakim, who is making noise?

15:04:25 <Zakim> sorry, AlexHall, I do not recognize a party named '1.443.212.aacc'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, AlexHall, I do not recognize a party named '1.443.212.aacc'

15:04:29 <Zakim> mischat_ should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: mischat_ should no longer be muted

15:04:39 <Zakim> +FabGandon; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +FabGandon; got it

15:04:44 <mischat> zakim, mute me

Mischa Tuffield: zakim, mute me

15:04:56 <davidwood> zakim, who is speaking?

David Wood: zakim, who is speaking?

15:05:06 <Zakim> manu1, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: mischat_ (58%), ??P17 (89%)

Zakim IRC Bot: manu1, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: mischat_ (58%), ??P17 (89%)

15:05:08 <Zakim> +nunolopes

Zakim IRC Bot: +nunolopes

15:05:14 <Zakim> mischat_ should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: mischat_ should now be muted

15:05:23 <manu1> zakim, mute ??P17

Manu Sporny: zakim, mute ??P17

15:05:26 <cygri> zakim, nunolopes is me

Richard Cyganiak: zakim, nunolopes is me

15:05:38 <Zakim> davidwood, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P17 (85%), Ivan (5%)

Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P17 (85%), Ivan (5%)

15:05:42 <AlexHall> zakim, +1.443.212.aacc is me

Alex Hall: zakim, +1.443.212.aacc is me

15:05:44 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.603.897.aaee

15:05:53 <Zakim> ??P17 should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: ??P17 should now be muted

15:05:54 <Zakim> -??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P17

15:05:58 <Zakim> +cygri; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri; got it

15:06:04 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider

Zakim IRC Bot: +Peter_Patel-Schneider

15:06:10 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall; got it

15:06:23 <Souri_> zakim, who is on the phone?

Souripriya Das: zakim, who is on the phone?

15:06:24 <Zakim> +??P43

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P43

15:06:26 <JeremyCarroll> David: welcome everyone - focus on JSON

David Wood: welcome everyone - focus on JSON

15:06:26 <JeremyCarroll> Topic: Admin

1. Admin

15:06:32 <webr3> zakim, i am ??P43

Nathan Rixham: zakim, i am ??P43

15:06:34 <Zakim> +??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17

15:06:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, zwu2 (muted), OlivierCorby, JeremyCarroll (muted), AndyS, mischat_ (muted), manu1, AlexHall, tomayac_, PatH, JFB (muted), Ivan,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, zwu2 (muted), OlivierCorby, JeremyCarroll (muted), AndyS, mischat_ (muted), manu1, AlexHall, tomayac_, PatH, JFB (muted), Ivan,

15:06:46 <ww> zakim, +??P17 is me

William Waites: zakim, +??P17 is me

15:06:47 <Zakim> ... FabGandon, cygri, +1.603.897.aaee, Peter_Patel-Schneider, ??P43, ??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: ... FabGandon, cygri, +1.603.897.aaee, Peter_Patel-Schneider, ??P43, ??P17

15:06:51 <Zakim> +webr3; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +webr3; got it

15:06:52 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is talking?

15:06:57 <Zakim> sorry, ww, I do not recognize a party named '+??P17'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, ww, I do not recognize a party named '+??P17'

15:06:58 <Souri_> zakim, aaee is me

Souripriya Das: zakim, aaee is me

15:07:06 <Zakim> +Souri_; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri_; got it

15:07:08 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: David (25%), ??P17 (59%), Ivan (20%)

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: David (25%), ??P17 (59%), Ivan (20%)

15:07:12 <ww> zakim, ??P17 is me

William Waites: zakim, ??P17 is me

15:07:12 <Zakim> +ww; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +ww; got it

15:07:15 <sandro> zakim, mute P17

Sandro Hawke: zakim, mute P17

15:07:15 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I do not know which phone connection belongs to P17

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, sandro, I do not know which phone connection belongs to P17

15:07:16 <ww> zakim, mute me

William Waites: zakim, mute me

15:07:17 <Zakim> ww should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: ww should now be muted

15:07:46 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 16 March telecon:

David Wood: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 16 March telecon:

15:07:46 <pfps> Minutes are acceptable, even with minor issues

Peter Patel-Schneider: Minutes are acceptable, even with minor issues

15:07:46 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-03-16

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-03-16

15:07:52 <manu1> +1 to accept the minutes

Manu Sporny: +1 to accept the minutes

15:07:56 <tomayac> +1 to accept

Thomas Steiner: +1 to accept

15:07:58 <JFB> +1 to accept

Jean-François Baget: +1 to accept

15:08:00 <JeremyCarroll> RESOLVED: Minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-03-16 accepted

RESOLVED: Minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-03-16 accepted

15:08:20 <JeremyCarroll> No pending action items to review

No pending action items to review

15:09:18 <JeremyCarroll> subtopic: Action Item Review

1.1. Action Item Review

15:09:18 <JeremyCarroll> subsubtopic: Action-4
1.1.1. ACTION-4
15:09:18 <JeremyCarroll> Action-4 is open, another use case has been added

ACTION-4 is open, another use case has been added

15:09:40 <JeremyCarroll> Suggested to close it since the use case has been added

Suggested to close it since the use case has been added

15:09:48 <JeremyCarroll> Closed. Danbri did the action

Closed. Danbri did the action

15:09:58 <JeremyCarroll> subsubtopic: Action-6
1.1.2. ACTION-6
15:11:13 <mischat> zakim, unmute me

Mischa Tuffield: zakim, unmute me

15:11:13 <Zakim> mischat_ should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: mischat_ should no longer be muted

15:11:16 <JeremyCarroll> subsubtopic: ACTION-19
1.1.3. ACTION-19
15:11:34 <JeremyCarroll> Richard has started this but is still working on it

Richard has started this but is still working on it

15:11:51 <JeremyCarroll> This action is time consuming because it involves a lot of software

This action is time consuming because it involves a lot of software

15:12:10 <JeremyCarroll> His goal is to list import formats and to explore output formats

His goal is to list import formats and to explore output formats

15:12:14 <mischat> zakim, mute me

Mischa Tuffield: zakim, mute me

15:12:14 <Zakim> mischat_ should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: mischat_ should now be muted

15:13:15 <JeremyCarroll> subsubtopic: ACTION-20
1.1.4. ACTION-20
15:13:15 <JeremyCarroll> TomSteiner is trying to get side by side comparison

TomSteiner is trying to get side by side comparison

15:13:36 <tomayac> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#JSON_Serializations_By_Example

Thomas Steiner: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#JSON_Serializations_By_Example

15:13:41 <zwu2> sounds good

Zhe Wu: sounds good

15:14:48 <JeremyCarroll> this action is still open, input data is being gathered

this action is still open, input data is being gathered

15:15:18 <JeremyCarroll> test cases will be added to Wiki

test cases will be added to Wiki

15:09:18 <JeremyCarroll> subtopic: F2F Preparation

1.2. F2F Preparation

15:16:21 <JeremyCarroll> Please respond to f2f proposal as to whether you are attending or not

(No events recorded for 7 minutes)

Please respond to f2f proposal as to whether you are attending or not

15:16:33 <JeremyCarroll> Hotels in Amsterdam filling up on Thursday

Hotels in Amsterdam filling up on Thursday

15:16:44 <Souri_> Is attending the F2F remotely from Boston area an option?

Souripriya Das: Is attending the F2F remotely from Boston area an option?

15:27:02 <Souri_> Is attending the first F2F remotely from Boston area an option? I remember that Ivan had said that it is not. Just trying to confirm.

(No events recorded for 10 minutes)

Souripriya Das: Is attending the first F2F remotely from Boston area an option? I remember that Ivan had said that it is not. Just trying to confirm.

15:16:56 <JeremyCarroll> Topic: JSON

2. JSON

15:17:20 <manu1> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Mar/0521.html

Manu Sporny: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Mar/0521.html

15:18:05 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: presents where we are at

Manu Sporny: presents where we are at

15:18:23 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: TF telecon report back

Manu Sporny: TF telecon report back

15:18:44 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: TF agrees that a JSON format would be a good thing

Manu Sporny: TF agrees that a JSON format would be a good thing

15:19:01 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: sense of urgency was low-to-moderate

Manu Sporny: sense of urgency was low-to-moderate

15:19:23 <AndyS> --> JSON format for SPARQL results

Andy Seaborne: --> JSON format for SPARQL results

15:20:15 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: half group were concerned about govt and enterprise

Manu Sporny: half group were concerned about govt and enterprise

15:20:47 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: half more concerned abotu independent developers

Manu Sporny: half more concerned abotu independent developers

15:21:48 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: we need to make sure that we keep as many people on board as possible

Manu Sporny: we need to make sure that we keep as many people on board as possible

15:21:58 <JeremyCarroll> Pat: why do motivations matter?

Patrick Hayes: why do motivations matter?

15:22:20 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

15:22:21 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: there are technical consequences given motivations, e.g. APIs vs publishing formats

Manu Sporny: there are technical consequences given motivations, e.g. APIs vs publishing formats

15:22:39 <Zakim> +??P46

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P46

15:22:45 <ww> zakim, ??P46 is me

William Waites: zakim, ??P46 is me

15:22:45 <Zakim> +ww; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +ww; got it

15:22:49 <ww> zakim, mute me

William Waites: zakim, mute me

15:22:49 <Zakim> ww was already muted, ww

Zakim IRC Bot: ww was already muted, ww

15:22:56 <zwu2> is it possible to build adapters/bridges between two different RDF/JSON serialization formats?

Zhe Wu: is it possible to build adapters/bridges between two different RDF/JSON serialization formats?

15:23:11 <webr3> everything is possible :)

Nathan Rixham: everything is possible :)

15:23:35 <zwu2> is there an efficient way then?

Zhe Wu: is there an efficient way then?

15:23:52 <AndyS> zwu2 - RDF?

Andy Seaborne: zwu2 - RDF?

15:24:17 <zwu2> RDF/JSON, andy

Zhe Wu: RDF/JSON, andy

15:23:29 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: doamin of interest, and use cases, and technical solutions are all interrelated

Manu Sporny: doamin of interest, and use cases, and technical solutions are all interrelated

15:23:53 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: if we do not have enough people interested in a topic then we will not be able to pursue such a technical soln

Manu Sporny: if we do not have enough people interested in a topic then we will not be able to pursue such a technical soln

15:24:18 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: there was discussion concerning round tripping

Manu Sporny: there was discussion concerning round tripping

15:24:41 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: round tripping - can data that is GET ted then be POST ed back

Manu Sporny: round tripping - can data that is GET ted then be POST ed back

15:24:46 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: without data loss

Manu Sporny: without data loss

15:25:19 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: it seemed clear when people spoke what they wanted, but not clear that there was consensus in TF

Manu Sporny: it seemed clear when people spoke what they wanted, but not clear that there was consensus in TF

15:25:28 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: issue of premature standardization

Manu Sporny: issue of premature standardization

15:26:00 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: this is a strong concern, unclear whether some JSON solutions will work,

Manu Sporny: this is a strong concern, unclear whether some JSON solutions will work,

15:26:08 <ww> JSON-UL?

William Waites: JSON-UL?

15:26:41 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: there is general unfamiliarity with some formats, cf: ACTION-20

Manu Sporny: there is general unfamiliarity with some formats, cf: ACTION-20

15:27:08 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: many motivations behind different formats are currently not well understood by many members of group

Manu Sporny: many motivations behind different formats are currently not well understood by many members of group

15:27:50 <webr3> q+

Nathan Rixham: q+

15:28:06 <JeremyCarroll> David: can we use use cases to understand different people's preferences

David Wood: can we use use cases to understand different people's preferences

15:28:30 <webr3> q-

Nathan Rixham: q-

15:29:11 <cygri> davidwood++

Richard Cyganiak: davidwood++

15:29:14 <davidwood> ack web3r

David Wood: ack web3r

15:29:26 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby

Zakim IRC Bot: -OlivierCorby

15:29:44 <JeremyCarroll> David: this would help in seeing what work can be resourced properly, and possibly help in reaching consensus

David Wood: this would help in seeing what work can be resourced properly, and possibly help in reaching consensus

15:30:18 <webr3> action: nathan to group json use cases on wiki

ACTION: nathan to group json use cases on wiki

15:30:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-22 - Group json use cases on wiki [on Nathan Rixham - due 2011-03-30].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-22 - Group json use cases on wiki [on Nathan Rixham - due 2011-03-30].

15:30:47 <ivan> zakim, mute me

Ivan Herman: zakim, mute me

15:30:47 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should now be muted

15:30:56 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

15:31:00 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby

Zakim IRC Bot: +OlivierCorby

15:31:15 <davidwood> ack cygri

David Wood: ack cygri

15:32:17 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

15:32:22 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: agrees that grouping use cases will help

Richard Cyganiak: agrees that grouping use cases will help

15:33:02 <JeremyCarroll> David (as Talis rep, not chair): there is no internal consensus about this issue, but there are strong opinions

David (as Talis rep, not chair): there is no internal consensus about this issue, but there are strong opinions

15:33:24 <JeremyCarroll> David (...): 1 opinion is that an API is needed, otherwise format is doomed

David (...): 1 opinion is that an API is needed, otherwise format is doomed

15:33:38 <webr3> David, can you clarify what you mean by "API" (api as in tooling for consumers) or "API" as in linked-data-api ?

Nathan Rixham: David, can you clarify what you mean by "API" (api as in tooling for consumers) or "API" as in linked-data-api ?

15:33:39 <JeremyCarroll> David (...): 2 opinion is triple format is crucial

David (...): 2 opinion is triple format is crucial

15:34:13 <JeremyCarroll> David (...): as rep it is hard to map different people's opinions onto use cases

David (...): as rep it is hard to map different people's opinions onto use cases

15:34:42 <JeremyCarroll> David: Guus prefers a bottom up approach

David Wood: Guus prefers a bottom up approach

15:35:12 <JeremyCarroll> David: Guus wants minimal approach, adding features with motivation

David Wood: Guus wants minimal approach, adding features with motivation

15:35:30 <webr3> David, next q - by "starting point" did you mean a simple object then add, or a simple triple, then add?

Nathan Rixham: David, next q - by "starting point" did you mean a simple object then add, or a simple triple, then add?

15:35:36 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

15:35:49 <davidwood> webr3: yes

Nathan Rixham: yes [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ]

15:35:58 <sandro> url for RDF API spec?

Sandro Hawke: url for RDF API spec?

15:36:11 <davidwood> webr3: oops :)  I meant a simple object.

Nathan Rixham: oops :) I meant a simple object. [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ]

15:36:13 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: we would like to see more people on APIs in JavaScript or Python

Manu Sporny: we would like to see more people on APIs in JavaScript or Python

15:36:25 <webr3> Sandro, http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/

Nathan Rixham: Sandro, http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/

15:36:31 <webr3> davidwood, then +1, i agree

Nathan Rixham: davidwood, then +1, i agree

15:36:37 <davidwood> sandro: The LOD API spec is at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/

Sandro Hawke: The LOD API spec is at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/ [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ]

15:36:39 <ww> yes. http://bibliographica.org/

William Waites: yes. http://bibliographica.org/

15:36:45 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

15:36:52 <davidwood> ack sandro

David Wood: ack sandro

15:36:52 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to talk about the matrix

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to talk about the matrix

15:36:59 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: who is shipping a product requiring JSON technologies

Manu Sporny: who is shipping a product requiring JSON technologies

15:37:39 <JeremyCarroll> Sandro: I have a hard time understanding use cases - mix of abstraction and concrete

Sandro Hawke: I have a hard time understanding use cases - mix of abstraction and concrete

15:37:55 <JeremyCarroll> Sandro: I like the matrix

Sandro Hawke: I like the matrix

15:38:18 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_User_Segments

Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_User_Segments

15:38:22 <JeremyCarroll> Sandro: we are trying to get data from producer to consumer, this gives a square on matrix

Sandro Hawke: we are trying to get data from producer to consumer, this gives a square on matrix

15:38:43 <JeremyCarroll> Sandro: each square sort of corresponds to a use case

Sandro Hawke: each square sort of corresponds to a use case

15:39:24 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_User_Segments

Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_User_Segments

15:39:24 <ww> mischat: the data store is rdf. the user interface is json/resty thing and web developers that know about rdf are hard to come by. so need to translate json i/o to rdf i/o

Mischa Tuffield: the data store is rdf. the user interface is json/resty thing and web developers that know about rdf are hard to come by. so need to translate json i/o to rdf i/o [ Scribe Assist by William Waites ]

15:39:26 <JeremyCarroll> some consumers want RDF, some don't

some consumers want RDF, some don't

15:39:43 <JeremyCarroll> some consumers are happy to use a library, others are not happy to use a library

some consumers are happy to use a library, others are not happy to use a library

15:39:56 <ww> which we've already done in an application-specific way but it would be nice to have a more standard/consistent way

William Waites: which we've already done in an application-specific way but it would be nice to have a more standard/consistent way

15:41:18 <JeremyCarroll> sandro: if people are not rpepared to use library, then encoding has to be really simple

Sandro Hawke: if people are not rpepared to use library, then encoding has to be really simple

15:41:42 <JeremyCarroll> sandro: this is where Talis' products are at - simple encoding

Sandro Hawke: this is where Talis' products are at - simple encoding

15:41:54 <ww> as an example: our franken-simpleish-json: http://bnb.bibliographica.org/entry/GB5105626.json

William Waites: as an example: our franken-simpleish-json: http://bnb.bibliographica.org/entry/GB5105626.json

15:42:48 <JeremyCarroll> David: is there a difference between librarys or APIs

David Wood: is there a difference between librarys or APIs

15:42:54 <JeremyCarroll> Sandro: no

Sandro Hawke: no

15:43:07 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll

David Wood: ack JeremyCarroll

15:43:16 <webr3> ww, why does it flip between qnames/curies and simple keys? (type / "dc:isPartOf")

Nathan Rixham: ww, why does it flip between qnames/curies and simple keys? (type / "dc:isPartOf")

15:43:20 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, unmute JeremyCarroll

Zakim, unmute JeremyCarroll

15:43:20 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted

15:44:29 <ww> webr3: the algorithm is, is there a property on the python object that is explicitly modelled and we know a priori in an application-specific way what predicate it is? then just use the property name

Nathan Rixham: the algorithm is, is there a property on the python object that is explicitly modelled and we know a priori in an application-specific way what predicate it is? then just use the property name [ Scribe Assist by William Waites ]

15:44:44 <ww> 2. do we have a known prefix we can use? use that (e.g. curie)

William Waites: 2. do we have a known prefix we can use? use that (e.g. curie)

15:44:51 <ww> 3. use <uri>

William Waites: 3. use <uri>

15:45:18 <webr3> ww, do you see (2) as being important or would 1+3 be acceptable?

Nathan Rixham: ww, do you see (2) as being important or would 1+3 be acceptable?

15:46:13 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute JeremyCarroll

Zakim, mute JeremyCarroll

15:46:13 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll should now be muted

15:46:15 <davidwood> ack manu1

David Wood: ack manu1

15:46:15 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to discuss really simple encoding.

Zakim IRC Bot: manu1, you wanted to discuss really simple encoding.

15:46:55 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: in TQ's client server protocol, issues to do with client side caching and temporal semantics - to make it neutral to programmer as to whether a triple is locally cached or involves server round trip

Jeremy Carroll: in TQ's client server protocol, issues to do with client side caching and temporal semantics - to make it neutral to programmer as to whether a triple is locally cached or involves server round trip

15:47:12 <ww> webr3: let's follow up on the list

Nathan Rixham: let's follow up on the list [ Scribe Assist by William Waites ]

15:48:02 <AndyS> q+

Andy Seaborne: q+

15:48:18 <davidwood> ack AndyS

David Wood: ack AndyS

15:48:22 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: of the people represented here, there do not seem to be actual business requirements

Manu Sporny: of the people represented here, there do not seem to be actual business requirements

15:48:45 <webr3> likewise, I have business use-cases for a few clients

Nathan Rixham: likewise, I have business use-cases for a few clients

15:49:21 <tomayac> (dialed in the us bridge. redialing. we had the same issue in the media fragments wg this morning)

Thomas Steiner: (dialed in the us bridge. redialing. we had the same issue in the media fragments wg this morning)

15:49:26 <Zakim> -tomayac_

Zakim IRC Bot: -tomayac_

15:50:14 <Zakim> +tomayac_

Zakim IRC Bot: +tomayac_

15:51:45 <tomayac> (to ivan lol, don't have a prob w/ manu neither ;-) only hearing him)

Thomas Steiner: (to ivan lol, don't have a prob w/ manu neither ;-) only hearing him)

15:51:52 <davidwood> ack sandro

David Wood: ack sandro

15:52:25 <webr3> q+

Nathan Rixham: q+

15:52:27 <JeremyCarroll> sandro: should we discuss use cases for rest of telecon?

Sandro Hawke: should we discuss use cases for rest of telecon?

15:52:38 <JeremyCarroll> david: do you want to categorize them?

David Wood: do you want to categorize them?

15:52:43 <JeremyCarroll> sandro: only if easy

Sandro Hawke: only if easy

15:52:48 <Zakim> +AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ

15:53:07 <manu1> zakim, mute AZ

Manu Sporny: zakim, mute AZ

15:53:07 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: AZ should now be muted

15:53:12 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call?

15:53:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, zwu2 (muted), JeremyCarroll (muted), AndyS, mischat_ (muted), manu1, AlexHall, PatH, JFB (muted), Ivan (muted), FabGandon, cygri,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, zwu2 (muted), JeremyCarroll (muted), AndyS, mischat_ (muted), manu1, AlexHall, PatH, JFB (muted), Ivan (muted), FabGandon, cygri,

15:53:16 <Zakim> ... Souri_, Peter_Patel-Schneider, webr3, ww (muted), ww, OlivierCorby, tomayac_, AZ (muted)

Zakim IRC Bot: ... Souri_, Peter_Patel-Schneider, webr3, ww (muted), ww, OlivierCorby, tomayac_, AZ (muted)

15:53:23 <AZ> Zakim, mute me

Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, mute me

15:53:23 <Zakim> sorry, AZ, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, AZ, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

15:53:24 <webr3> q-

Nathan Rixham: q-

15:53:52 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres

Zakim IRC Bot: +AxelPolleres

15:53:52 <webr3> q+

Nathan Rixham: q+

15:53:59 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

15:54:05 <ivan> ack webr3

Ivan Herman: ack webr3

15:54:05 <davidwood> ack web3r

David Wood: ack web3r

15:54:15 <sandro> sandro: please queue yourself to talk about the json use case you care about the most

Sandro Hawke: please queue yourself to talk about the json use case you care about the most [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:54:52 <ww> q+

William Waites: q+

15:56:08 <JeremyCarroll> Nathan: first case was that they wanted tripled based data to be exposed as simple objects without RDF

Nathan Rixham: first case was that they wanted tripled based data to be exposed as simple objects without RDF

15:55:36 <JeremyCarroll> Nathan: second case, people who have simple non-RDF objects in NoSQL db but they want to expose these as RDF

Nathan Rixham: second case, people who have simple non-RDF objects in NoSQL db but they want to expose these as RDF

15:56:38 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, unmute JeremyCarroll

Zakim, unmute JeremyCarroll

15:56:38 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted

15:56:39 <mischat> zakim, who is making noise ?

Mischa Tuffield: zakim, who is making noise ?

15:56:49 <Zakim> mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: David (56%), tomayac_ (8%), AndyS (19%), JeremyCarroll (34%), webr3 (48%), ww (4%)

Zakim IRC Bot: mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: David (56%), tomayac_ (8%), AndyS (19%), JeremyCarroll (34%), webr3 (48%), ww (4%)

15:56:55 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute JeremyCarroll

Zakim, mute JeremyCarroll

15:56:55 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll should now be muted

15:57:05 <davidwood> ack manu1

David Wood: ack manu1

15:57:19 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: we are working on universal payment standard

Manu Sporny: we are working on universal payment standard

15:58:06 <mischat> http://payswarm.com/

Mischa Tuffield: http://payswarm.com/

15:58:25 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: want a decentralized system that avoids reentering of financial data

Manu Sporny: want a decentralized system that avoids reentering of financial data

15:58:36 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: core technology is RDFa in HTML

Manu Sporny: core technology is RDFa in HTML

15:58:54 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: data is stored either in triple store or document store

Manu Sporny: data is stored either in triple store or document store

15:59:08 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: assumption is HTML+RDFa not a triple store

Manu Sporny: assumption is HTML+RDFa not a triple store

15:59:45 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

15:59:45 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: lots of URIs for identifying thins

Manu Sporny: lots of URIs for identifying thins

16:00:05 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: need someway to express data which web developers are comfortable with

Manu Sporny: need someway to express data which web developers are comfortable with

16:00:21 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: turtle etc are way outside comfort zone of developers discussed

Manu Sporny: turtle etc are way outside comfort zone of developers discussed

16:00:36 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: needs to be as easy as twitter or facebook API

Manu Sporny: needs to be as easy as twitter or facebook API

16:00:48 <ivan> q-

Ivan Herman: q-

16:00:52 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby

Zakim IRC Bot: -OlivierCorby

16:00:54 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: API can be converted into triples, but can be used directly

Manu Sporny: API can be converted into triples, but can be used directly

16:00:58 <sandro> manu: We want to provide an API where people who care about triples can get them, but others can use the API directly, where it just looks like json.

Manu Sporny: We want to provide an API where people who care about triples can get them, but others can use the API directly, where it just looks like json. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:01:16 <zwu2> q+

Zhe Wu: q+

16:01:21 <davidwood> ack cygri

David Wood: ack cygri

16:01:23 <sandro> (very clear at the end, Manu, thanks.)

Sandro Hawke: (very clear at the end, Manu, thanks.)

16:01:40 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: we have RDF data in a SPARQL store

Richard Cyganiak: we have RDF data in a SPARQL store

16:01:51 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby

Zakim IRC Bot: +OlivierCorby

16:01:53 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: we want to build one or more apps that use this data

Richard Cyganiak: we want to build one or more apps that use this data

16:01:58 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me

Zhe Wu: zakim, unmute me

16:01:58 <Zakim> zwu2 should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should no longer be muted

16:02:18 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: we want to develop these apps in JavaScript because it makes development process simpler

Richard Cyganiak: we want to develop these apps in JavaScript because it makes development process simpler

16:02:50 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: we currently do simple select queries with JSON results format from SPARQL

Richard Cyganiak: we currently do simple select queries with JSON results format from SPARQL

16:03:05 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: processing this is straightforward

Richard Cyganiak: processing this is straightforward

16:04:01 <ivan> zakim, who is noisy?

Ivan Herman: zakim, who is noisy?

16:04:11 <Zakim> ivan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 24 (28%), David (44%), tomayac_ (26%), manu1 (5%), cygri (20%), ww (5%)

Zakim IRC Bot: ivan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 24 (28%), David (44%), tomayac_ (26%), manu1 (5%), cygri (20%), ww (5%)

16:04:42 <sandro> cygri:We want something the encodes the output of SPARQL CONSTRUCT or DESCRIBE in a simple and predictable way for the Javascript developer who is already familiar with RDF.  They know SPARQL and can think in triples.

Richard Cyganiak: We want something the encodes the output of SPARQL CONSTRUCT or DESCRIBE in a simple and predictable way for the Javascript developer who is already familiar with RDF. They know SPARQL and can think in triples. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:05:21 <webr3> Nathan: I have two distinct groups of publishers (1) those who have rdf-triples behind the scenes (2) those who have non-rdf objects behind the scenes | both of those groups want to target both non-rdf developers, and rdf-developers. This creates two core needs: (a) a way to give rdf-triples as simple-objects to non-rdf developers (b) a way to give simple-objects as rdf to rdf-developers

Nathan Rixham: I have two distinct groups of publishers (1) those who have rdf-triples behind the scenes (2) those who have non-rdf objects behind the scenes | both of those groups want to target both non-rdf developers, and rdf-developers. This creates two core needs: (a) a way to give rdf-triples as simple-objects to non-rdf developers (b) a way to give simple-objects as rdf to rdf-developers [ Scribe Assist by Nathan Rixham ]

16:05:22 <webr3> Nathan: distinct from that I see two other cases (c) dumping rdf as json as a leightweight triple format (d) sparql (which I see as orthogonal, is sparql engine on client or server?)

Nathan Rixham: distinct from that I see two other cases (c) dumping rdf as json as a leightweight triple format (d) sparql (which I see as orthogonal, is sparql engine on client or server?) [ Scribe Assist by Nathan Rixham ]

16:05:26 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: but we also want to use things like DESCRIBE or CONSTRUCT

Richard Cyganiak: but we also want to use things like DESCRIBE or CONSTRUCT

16:05:26 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: but these do not give a JSON result

Richard Cyganiak: but these do not give a JSON result

16:05:35 <sandro> cygri: This is most interesting if you don't really want to use a consumer library; if library is okay, then use existing syntax.   It's nice to just code away on the raw json, though.

Richard Cyganiak: This is most interesting if you don't really want to use a consumer library; if library is okay, then use existing syntax. It's nice to just code away on the raw json, though. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:05:55 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute JeremyCarroll

Zakim, mute JeremyCarroll

16:05:55 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: want simple or predictable result format for DESCRIBE and CONSTRUCT

Richard Cyganiak: want simple or predictable result format for DESCRIBE and CONSTRUCT

16:05:55 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: we don't really want a library, because if library is OK then there is no problem to sovle (library can do whatever magic is needed)

Richard Cyganiak: we don't really want a library, because if library is OK then there is no problem to sovle (library can do whatever magic is needed)

16:05:55 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll was already muted, JeremyCarroll

Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll was already muted, JeremyCarroll

16:06:09 <ivan> The requirements of Manu and Richard are not very dissimilar...

Ivan Herman: The requirements of Manu and Richard are not very dissimilar...

16:06:19 <davidwood> JeremyCarroll, no it wasn't you

David Wood: JeremyCarroll, no it wasn't you

16:06:32 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: related problem is posting data back to SPARQL store

Richard Cyganiak: related problem is posting data back to SPARQL store

16:06:35 <manu1> I wouldn't say that Ivan - not clear at the moment...

Manu Sporny: I wouldn't say that Ivan - not clear at the moment...

16:06:36 <JeremyCarroll> e.g. with HTTP PUT

e.g. with HTTP PUT

16:06:37 <sandro> cygri: also, good to post back to store.   json serialization for simple encoding of RDF graph.

Richard Cyganiak: also, good to post back to store. json serialization for simple encoding of RDF graph. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:06:40 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

16:06:52 <ww> zakim, unmute me

William Waites: zakim, unmute me

16:06:52 <Zakim> ww should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: ww should no longer be muted

16:07:03 <sandro> (great, cygri)

Sandro Hawke: (great, cygri)

16:07:06 <davidwood> ack ww

David Wood: ack ww

16:07:17 <PatHayes> yup

Patrick Hayes: yup

16:07:23 <Zakim> -LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF

16:08:43 <JeremyCarroll> ww: has use cases with end users in web browswers annotating data

William Waites: has use cases with end users in web browswers annotating data

16:08:56 <JeremyCarroll> ww: the end users actions are mediated by web developers

William Waites: the end users actions are mediated by web developers

16:09:07 <JeremyCarroll> ww: the web developers neither know nor want to know about RDF

William Waites: the web developers neither know nor want to know about RDF

16:09:32 <JeremyCarroll> ww: but these developers need to mediate between a triple store and the end users

William Waites: but these developers need to mediate between a triple store and the end users

16:09:40 <sandro> ww: The developers don't seem to know much about modeling in RDF, and don't want to, but the modeling in the back is RDF.

William Waites: The developers don't seem to know much about modeling in RDF, and don't want to, but the modeling in the back is RDF. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:09:57 <ww> zakim, mute me

William Waites: zakim, mute me

16:09:57 <Zakim> ww should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: ww should now be muted

16:09:59 <JeremyCarroll> ww: mechanisms involve HTTP PUT/POST/GET and JSON but not sure how

William Waites: mechanisms involve HTTP PUT/POST/GET and JSON but not sure how

16:10:06 <davidwood> ack zwu

David Wood: ack zwu

16:10:10 <manu1> People might want to look at this as a complex example: http://purl.org/payswarm#Contract

Manu Sporny: People might want to look at this as a complex example: http://purl.org/payswarm#Contract

16:10:39 <JeremyCarroll> zwu: I understand why web developers do not want RDF/XML, but why not turtle

Zhe Wu: I understand why web developers do not want RDF/XML, but why not turtle

16:10:39 <sandro> zwu2: Why would developers really not want to get near Turtle.  It's really simple.

Zhe Wu: Why would developers really not want to get near Turtle. It's really simple. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:10:51 <davidwood> It may interest some to see how James Leigh and I roundtrip RDF to and from a browser:  http://callimachusproject.org

David Wood: It may interest some to see how James Leigh and I roundtrip RDF to and from a browser: http://callimachusproject.org

16:10:57 <sandro> manu: They say they already know json, and don't see why they need something else.

Manu Sporny: They say they already know json, and don't see why they need something else. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:10:57 <JeremyCarroll> manu: dev say we already know JSON, why should we learn more?

Manu Sporny: dev say we already know JSON, why should we learn more?

16:11:17 <sandro> manu: They just don't see the problem that json doesn't address.

Manu Sporny: They just don't see the problem that json doesn't address. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:11:32 <JeremyCarroll> manu: web developers use json to read and write data and accomplish their tasks involving linked data like tasks

Manu Sporny: web developers use json to read and write data and accomplish their tasks involving linked data like tasks

16:11:49 <ww> somewhat harshly, i've been told that it is not reasonable to expect developers to "go back to school" and learn about something new, and rdf seems pretty different

William Waites: somewhat harshly, i've been told that it is not reasonable to expect developers to "go back to school" and learn about something new, and rdf seems pretty different

16:11:58 <sandro> manu: and you don't need much more.      you just uris, and folks already do that a lot.    most of that can be done on the server side.    "Why are you making me learn something new, when that's not really required."

Manu Sporny: and you don't need much more. you just uris, and folks already do that a lot. most of that can be done on the server side. "Why are you making me learn something new, when that's not really required." [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:12:02 <JeremyCarroll> manu: why are you making me learn something new ...

Manu Sporny: why are you making me learn something new ...

16:12:24 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

16:12:35 <JeremyCarroll> zwu: RDF is not a huge deal

Zhe Wu: RDF is not a huge deal

16:12:41 <cygri> q-

Richard Cyganiak: q-

16:12:43 <JeremyCarroll> manu: but the learning curves are huge

Manu Sporny: but the learning curves are huge

16:12:49 <JeremyCarroll> JeremyCarroll: +1 to manu

Jeremy Carroll: +1 to manu

16:12:59 <ivan> +1 to manu

Ivan Herman: +1 to manu

16:13:01 <cygri> +10 to manu

Richard Cyganiak: +10 to manu

16:13:09 <ww> +100 to manu

William Waites: +100 to manu

16:13:14 <JeremyCarroll> David: agrees with manu

David Wood: agrees with manu

16:13:17 <mischat> fwiw we built the whole of  http://foafbuilder.qdos.com/builder/ which is very ajaxie, or "ajar-ie" in timbl speak. Our model in the MVC was RDF, storage a triplestore. and like above RDF to and from a browser

Mischa Tuffield: fwiw we built the whole of http://foafbuilder.qdos.com/builder/ which is very ajaxie, or "ajar-ie" in timbl speak. Our model in the MVC was RDF, storage a triplestore. and like above RDF to and from a browser

16:13:23 <webr3> they have a full stack including progamming languages all setup around working with classes and objects - they just aren't setup to handle triples and graphs (who is??!)

Nathan Rixham: they have a full stack including progamming languages all setup around working with classes and objects - they just aren't setup to handle triples and graphs (who is??!)

16:13:29 <sandro> manu: The RDF concepts are really not something that are easy to pick up and learn.

Manu Sporny: The RDF concepts are really not something that are easy to pick up and learn. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:13:32 <JeremyCarroll>  strong agreement with manu

strong agreement with manu

16:13:36 <manu1> +1 to David

Manu Sporny: +1 to David

16:13:40 <ivan> +1 to David

Ivan Herman: +1 to David

16:13:52 <JeremyCarroll> David: we want web developers to use this technology, rather than web dev want to use these

David Wood: we want web developers to use this technology, rather than web dev want to use these

16:13:52 <cygri> food for thought: http://www.google.com/trends?q=json%2Crdf&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0

Richard Cyganiak: food for thought: http://www.google.com/trends?q=json%2Crdf&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0

16:13:55 <sandro> davidwood: We want web developers to adopt this technology, more than they want to adopt it.   We can't put stumbling blocks in their way.

David Wood: We want web developers to adopt this technology, more than they want to adopt it. We can't put stumbling blocks in their way. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:14:09 <JeremyCarroll> q+

q+

16:14:12 <ivan> zhe, do not underestimate the weight of a familiar syntax

Ivan Herman: zhe, do not underestimate the weight of a familiar syntax

16:14:26 <davidwood> cygri: very relevant!

Richard Cyganiak: very relevant! [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ]

16:14:34 <AndyS> q+ to talk to linking

Andy Seaborne: q+ to talk to linking

16:14:52 <JeremyCarroll> manu: I don't think web developers grok some of the advanced topics to do with linked data

Manu Sporny: I don't think web developers grok some of the advanced topics to do with linked data

16:15:03 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, unmute JeremyCarroll

Zakim, unmute JeremyCarroll

16:15:03 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted

16:15:03 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me

Zhe Wu: zakim, unmute me

16:15:04 <Zakim> zwu2 was not muted, zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 was not muted, zwu2

16:16:04 <ww> uri as a global *property/predicate* identifier is difficult - you can't write that in most OO type languages

William Waites: uri as a global *property/predicate* identifier is difficult - you can't write that in most OO type languages

16:16:06 <pfps> isn't JSON at least formally "open"

Peter Patel-Schneider: isn't JSON at least formally "open"

16:16:34 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: uri as global identifier as opposed to local scoped id is one key RDF concept

Jeremy Carroll: uri as global identifier as opposed to local scoped id is one key RDF concept

16:16:55 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: open schema of RDFS rather than fully specified app schema is a second

Jeremy Carroll: open schema of RDFS rather than fully specified app schema is a second

16:17:04 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: both are advanced and difficult

Jeremy Carroll: both are advanced and difficult

16:16:11 <manu1> +1 to Jeremy

Manu Sporny: +1 to Jeremy

16:16:12 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute JeremyCarroll

Zakim, mute JeremyCarroll

16:16:12 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll should now be muted

16:16:23 <AndyS> AndyS supports cygri example (roughly)

Andy Seaborne: AndyS supports cygri example (roughly)

16:16:48 <sandro> cygri, http://www.google.com/trends?q=data%2C+love&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=1

Sandro Hawke: cygri, http://www.google.com/trends?q=data%2C+love&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=1

16:17:14 <mischat> I thought we are supposed to be standardising common practices ....

Mischa Tuffield: I thought we are supposed to be standardising common practices ....

16:17:17 <PatHayes> The other frightening thing about RDF is, if one probes the 'buzz' for insight, one finds a lot of worry and confusion and debate and so on, rather than a bunch of nice easy tutorials.

Patrick Hayes: The other frightening thing about RDF is, if one probes the 'buzz' for insight, one finds a lot of worry and confusion and debate and so on, rather than a bunch of nice easy tutorials.

16:17:38 <sandro> indeed, PatHayes, it's not a pretty picture.

Sandro Hawke: indeed, PatHayes, it's not a pretty picture.

16:17:44 <AndyS> We did not finish JSON UCs

Andy Seaborne: We did not finish JSON UCs

16:17:56 <PatHayes> So maybe we should make it our business to paint some better pictures :-)

Patrick Hayes: So maybe we should make it our business to paint some better pictures :-)

16:17:59 <zwu2> bye

Zhe Wu: bye

16:17:59 <Zakim> -cygri

Zakim IRC Bot: -cygri

16:18:00 <Zakim> -Souri_

Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri_

16:18:00 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres

Zakim IRC Bot: -AxelPolleres

16:18:01 <Zakim> -ww

Zakim IRC Bot: -ww

16:18:01 <Zakim> -tomayac_

Zakim IRC Bot: -tomayac_

16:18:02 <Zakim> -manu1

Zakim IRC Bot: -manu1

16:18:02 <Zakim> -Tony

Scribe problem: the name 'Tony' does not match any of the 41 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jean-François Baget Scott Bauer Dan Brickley Matteo Brunati Gavin Carothers Jeremy Carroll Pierre-Antoine Champin Kiu Ching Chieh Olivier Corby Richard Cyganiak Souripriya Das Lee Feigenbaum Dieter Fensel Fabien Gandon Alex Hall Steve Harris Michael Hausenblas Sandro Hawke Patrick Hayes Ivan Herman Nicholas Humfrey Dickson Lukose Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Axel Polleres Eric Prud'hommeaux Yves Raimond Nathan Rixham Guus Schreiber Andy Seaborne Manu Sporny Thomas Steiner Mischa Tuffield William Waites David Wood Zhe Wu Mohamed ZERGAOUI Antoine Zimmermann Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Zakim IRC Bot: -Tony

16:18:03 <ivan> zakim, drop me

Ivan Herman: zakim, drop me

16:18:04 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected

Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan is being disconnected

16:18:06 <Zakim> -mischat_

Zakim IRC Bot: -mischat_

16:18:08 <Zakim> -Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan

16:18:10 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby

Zakim IRC Bot: -OlivierCorby

16:18:12 <Zakim> -zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2

16:18:14 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

16:18:16 <Zakim> -AlexHall

Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexHall

16:18:18 <Zakim> -webr3

Zakim IRC Bot: -webr3

16:18:19 <Zakim> -David

Zakim IRC Bot: -David

16:18:22 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider

Zakim IRC Bot: -Peter_Patel-Schneider

16:18:22 <JeremyCarroll> yes

yes

16:18:22 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, unmute JeremyCarroll

Zakim, unmute JeremyCarroll

16:18:24 <Zakim> -PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH

16:18:26 <Zakim> -AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ

16:18:28 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

16:18:30 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted

16:18:34 <sandro> Zakim, list attendees

Sandro Hawke: Zakim, list attendees

16:18:36 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, OlivierCorby, +1.415.369.aabb, JeremyCarroll, AndyS, manu1, mischat_, tomayac_, PatH, Ivan, JFB, zwu2,

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, OlivierCorby, +1.415.369.aabb, JeremyCarroll, AndyS, manu1, mischat_, tomayac_, PatH, Ivan, JFB, zwu2,

16:18:39 <Zakim> ... FabGandon, +1.603.897.aaee, cygri, Peter_Patel-Schneider, AlexHall, webr3, Souri_, ww, AZ, AxelPolleres

Zakim IRC Bot: ... FabGandon, +1.603.897.aaee, cygri, Peter_Patel-Schneider, AlexHall, webr3, Souri_, ww, AZ, AxelPolleres

16:18:43 <Zakim> -JeremyCarroll

Zakim IRC Bot: -JeremyCarroll

16:18:51 <Zakim> -FabGandon

Zakim IRC Bot: -FabGandon

16:19:41 <Zakim> -JFB

Zakim IRC Bot: -JFB

16:19:46 <JeremyCarroll> Gavin will scribe next week

Gavin will scribe next week

16:19:46 <JeremyCarroll> meeting adjourned

meeting adjourned

16:19:58 <davidwood> Thanks, Jeremy!

David Wood: Thanks, Jeremy!

16:20:05 <JeremyCarroll> rssagent, draft minutes

rssagent, draft minutes

16:20:30 <JeremyCarroll> rrsagent, draft minutes

rrsagent, draft minutes

16:20:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/23-rdf-wg-minutes.html JeremyCarroll

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/23-rdf-wg-minutes.html JeremyCarroll



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This revision (#2) generated 2011-03-24 17:12:09 UTC by 'jcarroll', comments: 'Ronald => AZ'