Chatlog 2011-03-23

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14:58:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/23-rdf-wg-irc
14:58:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:58:54 <JeremyCarroll> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.23
14:58:54 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:56 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
14:58:56 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:58:57 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:58:57 <trackbot> Date: 23 March 2011
14:59:31 <mischat_> mischat_ has joined #rdf-wg
14:59:49 <tomayac> tomayac has joined #rdf-wg
14:59:50 <davidwood> Chair: David Wood
14:59:51 <LeeF> zakim, this wil be rdf-wg
14:59:51 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this wil be rdf-wg', LeeF
14:59:54 <LeeF> zakim, this will be rdf-wg
14:59:54 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, LeeF
14:59:56 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
14:59:57 <LeeF> zakim, this will be rdfwg
14:59:57 <Zakim> ok, LeeF, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started
14:59:57 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby
14:59:59 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:00:00 <Zakim> + +1.415.369.aabb
15:00:03 <davidwood> Scribe: Jeremy Carroll
15:00:12 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, aabb is me
15:00:12 <Zakim> +JeremyCarroll; got it
15:00:13 <davidwood> Scribenick: JeremyCarroll
15:00:13 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
15:00:13 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:24 <davidwood> zakim, who is here?
15:00:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, +1.408.642.aaaa, OlivierCorby, JeremyCarroll
15:00:28 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:00:34 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaler i sme
15:00:34 <Zakim> I don't understand 'IPCaler i sme', AndyS
15:00:42 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
15:00:42 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:00:50 <Zakim> +??P13
15:00:52 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:52 <Zakim> +??P17
15:00:54 <Zakim> +??P14
15:00:59 <manu1> zakim, I am ??P14
15:00:59 <Zakim> +manu1; got it
15:01:11 <mischat_> zakim, ??P13 is me
15:01:13 <Zakim> +mischat_; got it
15:01:18 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aacc
15:01:28 <Zakim> +tomayac_
15:01:29 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
15:01:30 <Zakim> sorry, zwu2, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:01:37 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute me
15:01:37 <Zakim> sorry, JeremyCarroll, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:01:38 <AlexHall> zakim, �01+1.443.212.aacc� is me
15:01:39 <Zakim> sorry, AlexHall, I do not recognize a party named '�01+1.443.212.aacc�'
15:01:48 <FabGandon> FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:50 <Zakim> +PatH
15:01:51 <Zakim> -??P17
15:01:57 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, JeremyCarroll is now JeremyCarroll
15:01:57 <Zakim> I don't understand 'JeremyCarroll is now JeremyCarroll', JeremyCarroll
15:02:05 <mischat> zakim, mute me
15:02:05 <Zakim> mischat_ should now be muted
15:02:13 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute JeremyCarroll
15:02:13 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted
15:02:21 <Zakim> + +33.4.67.92.aadd
15:02:37 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:02:39 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:02:41 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:02:47 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, +1.408.642.aaaa, OlivierCorby, JeremyCarroll (muted), AndyS, mischat_ (muted), manu1, +1.443.212.aacc, tomayac_, PatH,
15:02:57 <JFB> Zakim, +33.4.67.92.aadd is me
15:02:58 <Zakim> ... +33.4.67.92.aadd, Ivan
15:03:07 <zwu2> zakim, +1.408.642.aaaa is me
15:03:12 <Zakim> +JFB; got it
15:03:26 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:28 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it
15:03:28 <JFB> zakim, mute me
15:03:34 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
15:03:36 <Zakim> +[Sophia]
15:03:43 <PatHayes> PatHayes has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:44 <Zakim> +??P17
15:03:48 <Zakim> JFB should now be muted
15:03:50 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
15:03:53 <davidwood> zakim, who is here?
15:03:56 <mischat> zakim, unmute me 
15:03:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, zwu2 (muted), OlivierCorby, JeremyCarroll (muted), AndyS, mischat_ (muted), manu1, +1.443.212.aacc, tomayac_, PatH, JFB (muted), Ivan,
15:03:59 <AlexHall> zakim, 1.443.212.aacc is me
15:04:01 <mischat> zakim, unmute me 
15:04:03 <Souri_> Souri_ has joined #RDF-WG
15:04:04 <Zakim> ... [Sophia], ??P17
15:04:06 <FabGandon> zakim, [Sophia] is me
15:04:07 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:04:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, zwu2 (muted), OlivierCorby, JeremyCarroll (muted), AndyS, mischat_ (muted), manu1, +1.443.212.aacc, tomayac_, PatH, JFB (muted), Ivan,
15:04:19 <Zakim> ... [Sophia], ??P17
15:04:20 <manu1> zakim, who is making noise?
15:04:25 <Zakim> sorry, AlexHall, I do not recognize a party named '1.443.212.aacc'
15:04:29 <Zakim> mischat_ should no longer be muted
15:04:39 <Zakim> +FabGandon; got it
15:04:44 <mischat> zakim, mute me 
15:04:56 <davidwood> zakim, who is speaking?
15:05:06 <Zakim> manu1, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: mischat_ (58%), ??P17 (89%)
15:05:08 <Zakim> +nunolopes
15:05:14 <Zakim> mischat_ should now be muted
15:05:23 <manu1> zakim, mute ??P17
15:05:26 <cygri> zakim, nunolopes is me
15:05:38 <Zakim> davidwood, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P17 (85%), Ivan (5%)
15:05:42 <AlexHall> zakim, +1.443.212.aacc is me
15:05:44 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aaee
15:05:53 <Zakim> ??P17 should now be muted
15:05:54 <Zakim> -??P17
15:05:58 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
15:06:04 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
15:06:10 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
15:06:23 <Souri_> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:06:24 <Zakim> +??P43
15:06:26 <JeremyCarroll> David: welcome everyone - focus on JSON
15:06:26 <JeremyCarroll> Topic: Admin
15:06:32 <webr3> zakim, i am ??P43
15:06:34 <Zakim> +??P17
15:06:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, zwu2 (muted), OlivierCorby, JeremyCarroll (muted), AndyS, mischat_ (muted), manu1, AlexHall, tomayac_, PatH, JFB (muted), Ivan,
15:06:46 <ww> zakim, +??P17 is me
15:06:47 <Zakim> ... FabGandon, cygri, +1.603.897.aaee, Peter_Patel-Schneider, ??P43, ??P17
15:06:51 <Zakim> +webr3; got it
15:06:52 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
15:06:57 <Zakim> sorry, ww, I do not recognize a party named '+??P17'
15:06:58 <Souri_> zakim, aaee is me
15:07:06 <Zakim> +Souri_; got it
15:07:08 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: David (25%), ??P17 (59%), Ivan (20%)
15:07:12 <ww> zakim, ??P17 is me
15:07:12 <Zakim> +ww; got it
15:07:15 <sandro> zakim, mute P17
15:07:15 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I do not know which phone connection belongs to P17
15:07:16 <ww> zakim, mute me
15:07:17 <Zakim> ww should now be muted
15:07:46 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 16 March telecon:
15:07:46 <pfps> Minutes are acceptable, even with minor issues
15:07:46 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-03-16
15:07:52 <manu1> +1 to accept the minutes
15:07:56 <tomayac> +1 to accept
15:07:58 <JFB> +1 to accept
15:08:00 <JeremyCarroll> RESOLVED: Minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-03-16 accepted
15:08:20 <JeremyCarroll> No pending action items to review
15:09:18 <JeremyCarroll> subtopic: Action Item Review
15:09:18 <JeremyCarroll> subsubtopic: Action-4
15:09:18 <JeremyCarroll> Action-4 is open, another use case has been added
15:09:40 <JeremyCarroll> Suggested to close it since the use case has been added
15:09:48 <JeremyCarroll> Closed. Danbri did the action
15:09:58 <JeremyCarroll> subsubtopic: Action-6
15:11:13 <mischat> zakim, unmute me 
15:11:13 <Zakim> mischat_ should no longer be muted
15:11:16 <JeremyCarroll> subsubtopic: ACTION-19
15:11:34 <JeremyCarroll> Richard has started this but is still working on it
15:11:51 <JeremyCarroll> This action is time consuming because it involves a lot of software
15:12:10 <JeremyCarroll> His goal is to list import formats and to explore output formats
15:12:14 <mischat> zakim, mute me 
15:12:14 <Zakim> mischat_ should now be muted
15:13:15 <JeremyCarroll> subsubtopic: ACTION-20
15:13:15 <JeremyCarroll> TomSteiner is trying to get side by side comparison
15:13:36 <tomayac> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#JSON_Serializations_By_Example
15:13:41 <zwu2> sounds good
15:14:48 <JeremyCarroll> this action is still open, input data is being gathered
15:15:18 <JeremyCarroll> test cases will be added to Wiki
15:09:18 <JeremyCarroll> subtopic: F2F Preparation
15:16:21 <JeremyCarroll> Please respond to f2f proposal as to whether you are attending or not
15:16:33 <JeremyCarroll> Hotels in Amsterdam filling up on Thursday
15:16:44 <Souri_> Is attending the F2F remotely from Boston area an option?
15:16:51 <SteveH_> SteveH_ has joined #rdf-wg
15:27:02 <Souri_> Is attending the first F2F remotely from Boston area an option? I remember that Ivan had said that it is not. Just trying to confirm.
15:16:56 <JeremyCarroll> Topic: JSON
15:17:20 <manu1> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Mar/0521.html
15:18:05 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: presents where we are at
15:18:23 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: TF telecon report back
15:18:44 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: TF agrees that a JSON format would be a good thing
15:19:01 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: sense of urgency was low-to-moderate
15:19:23 <AndyS> --> JSON format for SPARQL results
15:20:15 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: half group were concerned about govt and enterprise 
15:20:47 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: half more concerned abotu independent developers
15:21:48 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: we need to make sure that we keep as many people on board as possible
15:21:58 <JeremyCarroll> Pat: why do motivations matter?
15:22:20 <davidwood> q?
15:22:21 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: there are technical consequences given motivations, e.g. APIs vs publishing formats
15:22:39 <Zakim> +??P46
15:22:45 <ww> zakim, ??P46 is me
15:22:45 <Zakim> +ww; got it
15:22:49 <ww> zakim, mute me
15:22:49 <Zakim> ww was already muted, ww
15:22:56 <zwu2> is it possible to build adapters/bridges between two different RDF/JSON serialization formats?
15:23:11 <webr3> everything is possible :)
15:23:35 <zwu2> is there an efficient way then?
15:23:52 <AndyS> zwu2 - RDF?
15:24:17 <zwu2> RDF/JSON, andy
15:23:29 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: doamin of interest, and use cases, and technical solutions are all interrelated
15:23:53 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: if we do not have enough people interested in a topic then we will not be able to pursue such a technical soln
15:24:18 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: there was discussion concerning round tripping
15:24:41 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: round tripping - can data that is GET ted then be POST ed back
15:24:46 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: without data loss
15:25:19 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: it seemed clear when people spoke what they wanted, but not clear that there was consensus in TF
15:25:28 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: issue of premature standardization
15:26:00 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: this is a strong concern, unclear whether some JSON solutions will work, 
15:26:08 <ww> JSON-UL?
15:26:41 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: there is general unfamiliarity with some formats, cf: ACTION-20
15:27:08 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: many motivations behind different formats are currently not well understood by many members of group
15:27:50 <webr3> q+
15:28:06 <JeremyCarroll> David: can we use use cases to understand different people's preferences
15:28:30 <webr3> q-
15:29:11 <cygri> davidwood++
15:29:14 <davidwood> ack web3r
15:29:26 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby
15:29:44 <JeremyCarroll> David: this would help in seeing what work can be resourced properly, and possibly help in reaching consensus
15:30:18 <webr3> action: nathan to group json use cases on wiki
15:30:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-22 - Group json use cases on wiki [on Nathan Rixham - due 2011-03-30].
15:30:47 <ivan> zakim, mute me
15:30:47 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
15:30:56 <cygri> q+
15:31:00 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby
15:31:15 <davidwood> ack cygri
15:31:25 <OlivierCorby> OlivierCorby has joined #rdf-wg
15:32:17 <sandro> q?
15:32:22 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: agrees that grouping use cases will help
15:33:02 <JeremyCarroll> David (as Talis rep, not chair): there is no internal consensus about this issue, but there are strong opinions
15:33:24 <JeremyCarroll> David (...): 1 opinion is that an API is needed, otherwise format is doomed
15:33:38 <webr3> David, can you clarify what you mean by "API" (api as in tooling for consumers) or "API" as in linked-data-api ?
15:33:39 <JeremyCarroll> David (...): 2 opinion is triple format is crucial
15:33:48 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
15:34:13 <JeremyCarroll> David (...): as rep it is hard to map different people's opinions onto use cases
15:34:42 <JeremyCarroll> David: Guus prefers a bottom up approach
15:35:12 <JeremyCarroll> David: Guus wants minimal approach, adding features with motivation
15:35:30 <webr3> David, next q - by "starting point" did you mean a simple object then add, or a simple triple, then add?
15:35:36 <davidwood> q?
15:35:49 <davidwood> webr3: yes
15:35:58 <sandro> url for RDF API spec?
15:36:11 <davidwood> webr3: oops :)  I meant a simple object.
15:36:13 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: we would like to see more people on APIs in JavaScript or Python
15:36:25 <webr3> Sandro, http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/
15:36:31 <webr3> davidwood, then +1, i agree
15:36:37 <davidwood> sandro: The LOD API spec is at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/
15:36:39 <ww> yes. http://bibliographica.org/
15:36:45 <davidwood> q?
15:36:52 <davidwood> ack sandro
15:36:52 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to talk about the matrix
15:36:59 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: who is shipping a product requiring JSON technologies
15:37:39 <JeremyCarroll> Sandro: I have a hard time understanding use cases - mix of abstraction and concrete 
15:37:55 <JeremyCarroll> Sandro: I like the matrix
15:38:18 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_User_Segments
15:38:22 <JeremyCarroll> Sandro: we are trying to get data from producer to consumer, this gives a square on matrix
15:38:43 <JeremyCarroll> Sandro: each square sort of corresponds to a use case
15:39:24 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_User_Segments
15:39:24 <ww> mischat: the data store is rdf. the user interface is json/resty thing and web developers that know about rdf are hard to come by. so need to translate json i/o to rdf i/o
15:39:26 <JeremyCarroll> some consumers want RDF, some don't
15:39:43 <JeremyCarroll> some consumers are happy to use a library, others are not happy to use a library
15:39:49 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:39:56 <ww> which we've already done in an application-specific way but it would be nice to have a more standard/consistent way
15:41:18 <JeremyCarroll> sandro: if people are not rpepared to use library, then encoding has to be really simple
15:41:42 <JeremyCarroll> sandro: this is where Talis' products are at - simple encoding
15:41:54 <ww> as an example: our franken-simpleish-json: http://bnb.bibliographica.org/entry/GB5105626.json
15:42:48 <JeremyCarroll> David: is there a difference between librarys or APIs
15:42:54 <JeremyCarroll> Sandro: no
15:43:07 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll
15:43:16 <webr3> ww, why does it flip between qnames/curies and simple keys? (type / "dc:isPartOf")
15:43:20 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, unmute JeremyCarroll
15:43:20 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted
15:44:29 <ww> webr3: the algorithm is, is there a property on the python object that is explicitly modelled and we know a priori in an application-specific way what predicate it is? then just use the property name
15:44:44 <ww> 2. do we have a known prefix we can use? use that (e.g. curie)
15:44:51 <ww> 3. use <uri>
15:45:18 <webr3> ww, do you see (2) as being important or would 1+3 be acceptable?
15:46:13 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute JeremyCarroll
15:46:13 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted
15:46:15 <davidwood> ack manu1
15:46:15 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to discuss really simple encoding.
15:46:55 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: in TQ's client server protocol, issues to do with client side caching and temporal semantics - to make it neutral to programmer as to whether a triple is locally cached or involves server round trip
15:47:12 <ww> webr3: let's follow up on the list
15:48:02 <AndyS> q+
15:48:18 <davidwood> ack AndyS
15:48:22 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: of the people represented here, there do not seem to be actual business requirements 
15:48:45 <webr3> likewise, I have business use-cases for a few clients
15:49:21 <tomayac> (dialed in the us bridge. redialing. we had the same issue in the media fragments wg this morning)
15:49:26 <Zakim> -tomayac_
15:50:14 <Zakim> +tomayac_
15:50:57 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:51:45 <tomayac> (to ivan lol, don't have a prob w/ manu neither ;-) only hearing him)
15:51:52 <davidwood> ack sandro
15:52:03 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rdf-wg
15:52:25 <webr3> q+
15:52:27 <JeremyCarroll> sandro: should we discuss use cases for rest of telecon?
15:52:38 <JeremyCarroll> david: do you want to categorize them?
15:52:43 <JeremyCarroll> sandro: only if easy
15:52:48 <Zakim> +AZ
15:53:07 <manu1> zakim, mute AZ
15:53:07 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
15:53:12 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
15:53:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, zwu2 (muted), JeremyCarroll (muted), AndyS, mischat_ (muted), manu1, AlexHall, PatH, JFB (muted), Ivan (muted), FabGandon, cygri,
15:53:16 <Zakim> ... Souri_, Peter_Patel-Schneider, webr3, ww (muted), ww, OlivierCorby, tomayac_, AZ (muted)
15:53:23 <AZ> Zakim, mute me
15:53:23 <Zakim> sorry, AZ, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:53:24 <webr3> q-
15:53:52 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres
15:53:52 <webr3> q+
15:53:59 <cygri> q+
15:54:05 <ivan> ack webr3 
15:54:05 <davidwood> ack web3r
15:54:15 <sandro> sandro: please queue yourself to talk about the json use case you care about the most
15:54:52 <ww> q+
15:56:08 <JeremyCarroll> Nathan: first case was that they wanted tripled based data to be exposed as simple objects without RDF 
15:55:36 <JeremyCarroll> Nathan: second case, people who have simple non-RDF objects in NoSQL db but they want to expose these as RDF
15:56:38 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, unmute JeremyCarroll
15:56:38 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted
15:56:39 <mischat> zakim, who is making noise ?
15:56:49 <Zakim> mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: David (56%), tomayac_ (8%), AndyS (19%), JeremyCarroll (34%), webr3 (48%), ww (4%)
15:56:55 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute JeremyCarroll
15:56:55 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted
15:57:05 <davidwood> ack manu1
15:57:19 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: we are working on universal payment standard
15:58:06 <mischat> http://payswarm.com/
15:58:25 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: want a decentralized system that avoids reentering of financial data
15:58:36 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: core technology is RDFa in HTML
15:58:54 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: data is stored either in triple store or document store
15:59:08 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: assumption is HTML+RDFa not a triple store
15:59:45 <ivan> q+
15:59:45 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: lots of URIs for identifying thins
16:00:05 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: need someway to express data which web developers are comfortable with
16:00:21 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: turtle etc are way outside comfort zone of developers discussed
16:00:36 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: needs to be as easy as twitter or facebook API
16:00:48 <ivan> q-
16:00:52 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby
16:00:54 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: API can be converted into triples, but can be used directly
16:00:58 <sandro> manu: We want to provide an API where people who care about triples can get them, but others can use the API directly, where it just looks like json.
16:01:16 <zwu2> q+
16:01:21 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:01:23 <sandro> (very clear at the end, Manu, thanks.)
16:01:40 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: we have RDF data in a SPARQL store
16:01:51 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby
16:01:53 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: we want to build one or more apps that use this data
16:01:58 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me
16:01:58 <Zakim> zwu2 should no longer be muted
16:02:18 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: we want to develop these apps in JavaScript because it makes development process simpler
16:02:50 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: we currently do simple select queries with JSON results format from SPARQL
16:03:05 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: processing this is straightforward
16:04:01 <ivan> zakim, who is noisy?
16:04:11 <Zakim> ivan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 24 (28%), David (44%), tomayac_ (26%), manu1 (5%), cygri (20%), ww (5%)
16:04:42 <sandro> cygri:We want something the encodes the output of SPARQL CONSTRUCT or DESCRIBE in a simple and predictable way for the Javascript developer who is already familiar with RDF.  They know SPARQL and can think in triples.
16:05:21 <webr3> Nathan: I have two distinct groups of publishers (1) those who have rdf-triples behind the scenes (2) those who have non-rdf objects behind the scenes | both of those groups want to target both non-rdf developers, and rdf-developers. This creates two core needs: (a) a way to give rdf-triples as simple-objects to non-rdf developers (b) a way to give simple-objects as rdf to rdf-developers
16:05:22 <webr3> Nathan: distinct from that I see two other cases (c) dumping rdf as json as a leightweight triple format (d) sparql (which I see as orthogonal, is sparql engine on client or server?)
16:05:26 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: but we also want to use things like DESCRIBE or CONSTRUCT
16:05:26 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: but these do not give a JSON result
16:05:35 <sandro> cygri: This is most interesting if you don't really want to use a consumer library; if library is okay, then use existing syntax.   It's nice to just code away on the raw json, though.     
16:05:55 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute JeremyCarroll
16:05:55 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: want simple or predictable result format for DESCRIBE and CONSTRUCT
16:05:55 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: we don't really want a library, because if library is OK then there is no problem to sovle (library can do whatever magic is needed)
16:05:55 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll was already muted, JeremyCarroll
16:06:09 <ivan> The requirements of Manu and Richard are not very dissimilar...
16:06:19 <davidwood> JeremyCarroll, no it wasn't you
16:06:32 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: related problem is posting data back to SPARQL store
16:06:35 <manu1> I wouldn't say that Ivan - not clear at the moment...
16:06:36 <JeremyCarroll> e.g. with HTTP PUT
16:06:37 <sandro> cygri: also, good to post back to store.   json serialization for simple encoding of RDF graph.
16:06:40 <davidwood> q?
16:06:52 <ww> zakim, unmute me
16:06:52 <Zakim> ww should no longer be muted
16:07:03 <sandro> (great, cygri)
16:07:06 <davidwood> ack ww
16:07:17 <PatHayes> yup
16:07:23 <Zakim> -LeeF
16:08:43 <JeremyCarroll> ww: has use cases with end users in web browswers annotating data
16:08:56 <JeremyCarroll> ww: the end users actions are mediated by web developers
16:09:07 <JeremyCarroll> ww: the web developers neither know nor want to know about RDF
16:09:32 <JeremyCarroll> ww: but these developers need to mediate between a triple store and the end users
16:09:40 <sandro> ww: The developers don't seem to know much about modeling in RDF, and don't want to, but the modeling in the back is RDF.
16:09:57 <ww> zakim, mute me
16:09:57 <Zakim> ww should now be muted
16:09:59 <JeremyCarroll> ww: mechanisms involve HTTP PUT/POST/GET and JSON but not sure how
16:10:06 <davidwood> ack zwu
16:10:10 <manu1> People might want to look at this as a complex example: http://purl.org/payswarm#Contract
16:10:39 <JeremyCarroll> zwu: I understand why web developers do not want RDF/XML, but why not turtle
16:10:39 <sandro> zwu2: Why would developers really not want to get near Turtle.  It's really simple.
16:10:51 <davidwood> It may interest some to see how James Leigh and I roundtrip RDF to and from a browser:  http://callimachusproject.org
16:10:57 <sandro> manu: They say they already know json, and don't see why they need something else.
16:10:57 <JeremyCarroll> manu: dev say we already know JSON, why should we learn more?
16:11:17 <sandro> manu: They just don't see the problem that json doesn't address.
16:11:32 <JeremyCarroll> manu: web developers use json to read and write data and accomplish their tasks involving linked data like tasks
16:11:49 <ww> somewhat harshly, i've been told that it is not reasonable to expect developers to "go back to school" and learn about something new, and rdf seems pretty different
16:11:58 <sandro> manu: and you don't need much more.      you just uris, and folks already do that a lot.    most of that can be done on the server side.    "Why are you making me learn something new, when that's not really required."
16:12:02 <JeremyCarroll> manu: why are you making me learn something new ...
16:12:24 <cygri> q+
16:12:35 <JeremyCarroll> zwu: RDF is not a huge deal
16:12:41 <cygri> q-
16:12:43 <JeremyCarroll> manu: but the learning curves are huge
16:12:49 <JeremyCarroll> JeremyCarroll: +1 to manu
16:12:59 <ivan> +1 to manu
16:13:01 <cygri> +10 to manu
16:13:09 <ww> +100 to manu
16:13:14 <JeremyCarroll> David: agrees with manu
16:13:17 <mischat> fwiw we built the whole of  http://foafbuilder.qdos.com/builder/ which is very ajaxie, or "ajar-ie" in timbl speak. Our model in the MVC was RDF, storage a triplestore. and like above RDF to and from a browser
16:13:23 <webr3> they have a full stack including progamming languages all setup around working with classes and objects - they just aren't setup to handle triples and graphs (who is??!)
16:13:29 <sandro> manu: The RDF concepts are really not something that are easy to pick up and learn.
16:13:32 <JeremyCarroll>  strong agreement with manu
16:13:36 <manu1> +1 to David
16:13:40 <ivan> +1 to David
16:13:52 <JeremyCarroll> David: we want web developers to use this technology, rather than web dev want to use these
16:13:52 <cygri> food for thought: http://www.google.com/trends?q=json%2Crdf&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0
16:13:55 <sandro> davidwood: We want web developers to adopt this technology, more than they want to adopt it.   We can't put stumbling blocks in their way.
16:14:09 <JeremyCarroll> q+
16:14:12 <ivan> zhe, do not underestimate the weight of a familiar syntax
16:14:26 <davidwood> cygri: very relevant!
16:14:34 <AndyS> q+ to talk to linking
16:14:52 <JeremyCarroll> manu: I don't think web developers grok some of the advanced topics to do with linked data
16:15:03 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, unmute JeremyCarroll
16:15:03 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted
16:15:03 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me
16:15:04 <Zakim> zwu2 was not muted, zwu2
16:16:04 <ww> uri as a global *property/predicate* identifier is difficult - you can't write that in most OO type languages
16:16:06 <pfps> isn't JSON at least formally "open"
16:16:34 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: uri as global identifier as opposed to local scoped id is one key RDF concept
16:16:55 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: open schema of RDFS rather than fully specified app schema is a second
16:17:04 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: both are advanced and difficult
16:16:11 <manu1> +1 to Jeremy
16:16:12 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute JeremyCarroll
16:16:12 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted
16:16:23 <AndyS> AndyS supports cygri example (roughly)
16:16:48 <sandro> cygri, http://www.google.com/trends?q=data%2C+love&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=1
16:17:14 <mischat> I thought we are supposed to be standardising common practices ....
16:17:17 <PatHayes> The other frightening thing about RDF is, if one probes the 'buzz' for insight, one finds a lot of worry and confusion and debate and so on, rather than a bunch of nice easy tutorials.
16:17:38 <sandro> indeed, PatHayes, it's not a pretty picture.
16:17:44 <AndyS> We did not finish JSON UCs
16:17:53 <hsbauer> hsbauer has left #rdf-wg
16:17:56 <PatHayes> So maybe we should make it our business to paint some better pictures :-)
16:17:59 <zwu2> bye
16:17:59 <Zakim> -cygri
16:18:00 <Zakim> -Souri_
16:18:00 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
16:18:01 <Zakim> -ww
16:18:01 <Zakim> -tomayac_
16:18:02 <Zakim> -manu1
16:18:02 <Zakim> -Tony
16:18:03 <ivan> zakim, drop me
16:18:04 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
16:18:06 <Zakim> -mischat_
16:18:08 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:18:10 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby
16:18:11 <AlexHall> AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
16:18:12 <Zakim> -zwu2
16:18:14 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:18:16 <Zakim> -AlexHall
16:18:18 <Zakim> -webr3
16:18:19 <Zakim> -David
16:18:22 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
16:18:22 <JeremyCarroll> yes
16:18:22 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, unmute JeremyCarroll
16:18:24 <Zakim> -PatH
16:18:26 <Zakim> -AZ
16:18:28 <Zakim> -AndyS
16:18:30 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted
16:18:34 <sandro> Zakim, list attendees
16:18:36 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, OlivierCorby, +1.415.369.aabb, JeremyCarroll, AndyS, manu1, mischat_, tomayac_, PatH, Ivan, JFB, zwu2,
16:18:39 <Zakim> ... FabGandon, +1.603.897.aaee, cygri, Peter_Patel-Schneider, AlexHall, webr3, Souri_, ww, AZ, AxelPolleres
16:18:43 <Zakim> -JeremyCarroll
16:18:51 <Zakim> -FabGandon
16:18:58 <mischat> mischat has joined #rdf-wg
16:18:58 <FabGandon> FabGandon has left #rdf-wg
16:19:41 <Zakim> -JFB
16:19:46 <JeremyCarroll> Gavin will scribe next week
16:19:46 <JeremyCarroll> meeting adjourned
16:19:58 <davidwood> Thanks, Jeremy!
16:20:05 <JeremyCarroll> rssagent, draft minutes
16:20:30 <JeremyCarroll> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:20:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/23-rdf-wg-minutes.html JeremyCarroll
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