Provenance Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 29 March 2012

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.03.29
Seen
Curt Tilmes, Daniel Garijo, Graham Klyne, James Cheney, Jun Zhao, Luc Moreau, Paolo Missier, Paul Groth, Sam Coppens, Sandro Hawke, Simon Miles, Stephan Zednik, Stephen Cresswell, Stian Soiland-Reyes, Ted Thibodeau, Timothy Lebo, Tom De Nies
Regrets
Simon Miles
Chair
Paul Groth
Scribe
Daniel Garijo
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. use http://www.w3.org/ns/prov# as the common namespace for all prov specs link
Topics
  1. Admin

    General issues. Introduced Tom De Nies as a new working group member from IBBT.

  2. PROV-DM

    A status update on the dm was given. Both prov-dm and prov-n are pretty much ready to go for review on monday. prov-dm-constraints will be worked on this weekend. Luc has set-up issue numbers that general comments (grammer, etc) on these documents should be tagged with. The issue numbers can be found in the agenda.

  3. PROV-O

    PROV-O will be ready to go by monday and be made available in mecurial repository. In addition to the current set of reviewers, MacTed and Sam agreed to try to review as well.

  4. Prov-Primer

    The primer will be ready to release on Monday. It was agreed that collections would be postponed until the next working draft of the primer.

  5. PAQ

    Graham and Paul gave a status update on the PAQ. They think they have addressed most issues. They plan to release something for review by next week if all goes well. There was a discussion around what to use to substitute for entity-uri.

  6. Namespace Unification

    Paul reported on an email conversation with Jeni Tennison confirming that using a url with a hash was ok for xml. The group voted to use a common namespace http://www.w3.org/ns/prov# . Paul agreed to create an html index for this namespace and consult Ivan about having content negotiation to the owl file.

  7. Collections

    Luc raised the problem of naming relations for collections. There was limited comment.

  8. Substitute for entity-URI in PAQ

    The group returned to the conversation around what to use instead of entity-uri in the PAQ. In order to support, the retrieval of provenance for other provenance constructs (e.g. activity). Luc suggested to use the term "resource". Graham and Paul agreed that this is maybe a good option and to investigate more.

14:51:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/29-prov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/29-prov-irc

14:51:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:51:55 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be

14:51:55 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

14:51:56 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:51:56 <trackbot> Date: 29 March 2012
14:51:59 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV

Paul Groth: Zakim, this will be PROV

14:51:59 <Zakim> ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes

14:52:17 <pgroth> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.03.29
14:52:29 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth
14:52:47 <pgroth> Scribe: Daniel Garijo

(Scribe set to Daniel Garijo)

14:52:58 <pgroth> Regrets: Simon Miles
14:53:05 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, make logs public

14:54:39 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

14:54:46 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

14:55:45 <Zakim> +??P15

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P15

14:55:57 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P15 is me

Zakim, ??P15 is me

14:55:57 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +dgarijo; got it

14:56:08 <dgarijo> scribe: dgarijo
14:56:27 <Zakim> + +329331aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +329331aaaa

14:56:58 <Zakim> +Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc

14:57:29 <Tom_De_Nies> Zakim, +329331aaaa is me

Tom De Nies: Zakim, +329331aaaa is me

14:57:29 <Zakim> +Tom_De_Nies; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Tom_De_Nies; got it

15:00:01 <Zakim> +tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo

15:00:27 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: +Curt_Tilmes

15:01:31 <Tom_De_Nies> Zakim, Tom_De_Nies is with SamCoppens

Tom De Nies: Zakim, Tom_De_Nies is with SamCoppens

15:01:47 <Zakim> sorry, Tom_De_Nies, I do not recognize a party named 'SamCoppens'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Tom_De_Nies, I do not recognize a party named 'SamCoppens'

15:01:53 <Zakim> +??P50

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P50

15:01:56 <Zakim> +??P43

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P43

15:01:56 <jcheney> Zakim, ??P50 is me

James Cheney: Zakim, ??P50 is me

15:02:02 <jun> zakim, ??P43 is me

Jun Zhao: zakim, ??P43 is me

15:02:20 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jcheney; got it

15:02:29 <Zakim> +jun; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jun; got it

15:02:38 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.a]

15:02:56 <Paolo> zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me

Paolo Missier: zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me

15:03:08 <Zakim> +??P49

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P49

15:03:10 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Paolo; got it

15:03:12 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:03:19 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the call?

Paul Groth: Zakim, who is on the call?

15:03:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], dgarijo, Tom_De_Nies, Luc, tlebo, Curt_Tilmes, jcheney, jun, Paolo, ??P49

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see [IPcaller], dgarijo, Tom_De_Nies, Luc, tlebo, Curt_Tilmes, jcheney, jun, Paolo, ??P49

15:03:28 <pgroth> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me

Paul Groth: Zakim, [IPcaller] is me

15:03:30 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it

15:03:49 <dgarijo> yes

yes

<pgroth> Topic: Admin

1. Admin

Summary: General issues. Introduced Tom De Nies as a new working group member from IBBT.

<pgroth> Summary: General issues. Introduced Tom De Nies as a new working group member from IBBT.
15:04:07 <pgroth> Minutes last telco: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-03-22

Paul Groth: Minutes last telco: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-03-22

15:04:15 <dgarijo> +1

+1

15:04:21 <Curt> +1

Curt Tilmes: +1

15:04:23 <Tom_De_Nies> +1

Tom De Nies: +1

15:04:24 <tlebo> +1

Timothy Lebo: +1

15:04:28 <jcheney> +1

James Cheney: +1

15:04:33 <Paolo> +1

Paolo Missier: +1

15:05:01 <Zakim> +??P53

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P53

15:05:06 <pgroth> Approved Minutes of the March 22 2012 Telecon

Paul Groth: Approved Minutes of the March 22 2012 Telecon

15:05:24 <dgarijo> pgroth: open actions

Paul Groth: open actions

15:05:32 <dgarijo> ... there is still 1 open, on me

... there is still 1 open, on me

15:05:48 <dgarijo> ... I think the action is done (new version of the paq)

... I think the action is done (new version of the paq)

15:05:58 <dgarijo> ... next topic: reminder about the scribes

... next topic: reminder about the scribes

15:06:27 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

15:06:28 <dgarijo> ... welcome to Tom De Nies

... welcome to Tom De Nies

15:06:35 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:06:35 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:06:37 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:06:37 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:06:43 <dgarijo> tom: colleague of SamCoppens

Tom De Nies: colleague of SamCoppens

15:07:05 <dgarijo> ... work in enrichment of  news and provenance assessment of news. Very happy to be here

... work in enrichment of news and provenance assessment of news. Very happy to be here

15:07:12 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:07:19 <dgarijo> paul: questions?

Paul Groth: questions?

15:07:23 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-DM

2. PROV-DM

Summary: A status update on the dm was given. Both prov-dm and prov-n are pretty much ready to go for review on monday. prov-dm-constraints will be worked on this weekend. Luc has set-up issue numbers that general comments (grammer, etc) on these documents should be tagged with. The issue numbers can be found in the agenda.

<pgroth> Summary: A status update on the dm was given. Both prov-dm and prov-n are pretty much ready to go for review on monday. prov-dm-constraints will be worked on this weekend. Luc has set-up issue numbers that general comments (grammer, etc) on these documents should be tagged with. The issue numbers can be found in the agenda.
15:07:35 <Zakim> +??P16

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P16

15:07:36 <dgarijo> pgroth: stauts update?

Paul Groth: stauts update?

15:07:39 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvDMWorkingDraft5

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvDMWorkingDraft5

15:08:11 <GK> Zakim, ??P16 is me

Graham Klyne: Zakim, ??P16 is me

15:08:11 <Zakim> +GK; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +GK; got it

15:08:20 <MacTed> it would be VERY helpful if links to relevant docs can always be included in (added to) the Agenda

Ted Thibodeau: it would be VERY helpful if links to relevant docs can always be included in (added to) the Agenda

15:08:22 <dgarijo> luc:We've been working quite hard on the model. The documents are ready today (deadline is monday). In the wikipage there is a to do list and most of the items are covered.

Luc Moreau: We've been working quite hard on the model. The documents are ready today (deadline is monday). In the wikipage there is a to do list and most of the items are covered.

15:08:31 <Paolo> "align collection productions [PM]"  done, actually

Paolo Missier: "align collection productions [PM]" done, actually

15:08:40 <dgarijo> ... invalidation will not be covered. It will be written and merged separately.

... invalidation will not be covered. It will be written and merged separately.

15:08:49 <Zakim> +??P10

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P10

15:09:03 <dgarijo> ... for provn we've done checks for everything except collections

... for provn we've done checks for everything except collections

15:09:09 <Paolo> @Luc collections productions done this morning

Paolo Missier: @Luc collections productions done this morning

15:09:14 <sandro> sorry, previous meeting ran late.

Sandro Hawke: sorry, previous meeting ran late.

15:09:16 <dgarijo> ... constraints part has not been started.

... constraints part has not been started.

15:09:24 <Zakim> +sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +sandro

15:09:33 <dgarijo> ... will try to have it for monday, although we are not sure.

... will try to have it for monday, although we are not sure.

15:09:38 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:09:43 <dgarijo> pgroth: questions?

Paul Groth: questions?

15:09:45 <tlebo> q+

Timothy Lebo: q+

15:09:54 <pgroth> ack tlebo

Paul Groth: ack tlebo

15:10:00 <Paolo> :collection (paolo) -- fix the constraints to allow for multiple contained() assertions" --> please see my mail this morning re: this

Paolo Missier: :collection (paolo) -- fix the constraints to allow for multiple contained() assertions" --> please see my mail this morning re: this

15:10:11 <dgarijo> tlebo: curious about the "finished today but still something to do for monday"

Timothy Lebo: curious about the "finished today but still something to do for monday"

15:10:16 <Paolo> (have to go, sorry in between trains)

Paolo Missier: (have to go, sorry in between trains)

15:10:25 <Zakim> -Paolo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Paolo

15:10:27 <dgarijo> luc: part 2 is the one we are going to start tomorrow.

Luc Moreau: part 2 is the one we are going to start tomorrow.

15:10:33 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:10:53 <Tom_De_Nies> Zakim, mute me

Tom De Nies: Zakim, mute me

15:10:53 <Zakim> Tom_De_Nies should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Tom_De_Nies should now be muted

15:10:56 <tlebo> (DM and N are finished today, CONSTRAINTS is for Monday.)

Timothy Lebo: (DM and N are finished today, CONSTRAINTS is for Monday.)

15:11:05 <dgarijo> luc: we have identified a number of questions for reviewers:

Luc Moreau: we have identified a number of questions for reviewers:

15:11:24 <dgarijo> ... can the doc be released as a fwd?

... can the doc be released as a fwd?

15:11:29 <dgarijo> ... blockers?

... blockers?

15:12:16 <dgarijo> ... reviewers with pending issues please confirm if they can be clsoed

... reviewers with pending issues please confirm if they can be closed

15:12:25 <dgarijo> s/clsoed/closed
15:12:37 <Zakim> -??P53

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P53

15:12:51 <dgarijo> ... typos gramatical issues can be submitted in issues 331, 332 and 333

... typos gramatical issues can be submitted in issues 331, 332 and 333

15:12:56 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:13:09 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:13:12 <Zakim> +??P22

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P22

15:13:39 <dgarijo> paul: reviewers for provd and provn can start reviewing now?

Paul Groth: reviewers for provd and provn can start reviewing now?

15:14:09 <dgarijo> luc: they could. But there are a few tweaks we'll have to do once we reach the constraints on part to. Up to the reviewers.

Luc Moreau: they could. But there are a few tweaks we'll have to do once we reach the constraints on part to. Up to the reviewers.

15:14:15 <tlebo> Monday is fine :-)

Timothy Lebo: Monday is fine :-)

15:14:17 <Zakim> -??P22

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P22

15:14:30 <Paolo> zakim, ??P22 is me

Paolo Missier: zakim, ??P22 is me

15:14:31 <Zakim> I already had ??P22 as ??P22, Paolo

Zakim IRC Bot: I already had ??P22 as ??P22, Paolo

15:14:41 <dgarijo> pgroth: reviewers were: Tim, khalid, curt, jun and...

Paul Groth: reviewers were: Tim, khalid, curt, jun and...

15:15:14 <dgarijo> luc: if you are in agreement the we can send a notification on monday

Luc Moreau: if you are in agreement the we can send a notification on monday

15:15:33 <GK> I'm not seeing the document URIs at the page posted previuously

Graham Klyne: I'm not seeing the document URIs at the page posted previuously

15:15:33 <Curt> I can't really do it until next week anyway

Curt Tilmes: I can't really do it until next week anyway

15:15:34 <dgarijo> pgroth: ok, so wait till monday to begin the review.

Paul Groth: ok, so wait till monday to begin the review.

15:15:36 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:15:54 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.03.29#PROV-O

Timothy Lebo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.03.29#PROV-O

15:15:55 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-O

3. PROV-O

Summary: PROV-O will be ready to go by monday and be made available in mecurial repository. In addition to the current set of reviewers, MacTed and Sam agreed to try to review as well.

<pgroth> Summary: PROV-O will be ready to go by monday and be made available in mecurial repository. In addition to the current set of reviewers, MacTed and Sam agreed to try to review as well.
15:16:17 <dgarijo> tlebo: different parts of the team working on different parts of the doc.

Timothy Lebo: different parts of the team working on different parts of the doc.

15:16:34 <dgarijo> ... some questions to the reviewers are on the link posted in the irc

... some questions to the reviewers are on the link posted in the irc

15:16:45 <dgarijo> ... will be ready for review by monday

... will be ready for review by monday

15:17:01 <Zakim> +??P22

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P22

15:17:06 <Luc> where is the prov-o.html document?

Luc Moreau: where is the prov-o.html document?

15:17:10 <Zakim> +??P24

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P24

15:17:15 <dgarijo> tlebo: the organization scheme has changed

Timothy Lebo: the organization scheme has changed

15:17:23 <dgarijo> @Luc: in aquarius :(

@Luc: in aquarius :(

15:17:34 <Luc> thanks

Luc Moreau: thanks

15:18:09 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:18:12 <dgarijo> tlebo: is it enough to understand everything, are the cross references useful?

Timothy Lebo: is it enough to understand everything, are the cross references useful?

15:18:36 <dgarijo> tlebo: please start to be familiar with the ontology.

Timothy Lebo: please start to be familiar with the ontology.

15:18:43 <dgarijo> ... should we add more examples.

... should we add more examples.

15:19:13 <dgarijo> pgroth: would you move this to the w3c site (what people are supposed to review).

Paul Groth: would you move this to the w3c site (what people are supposed to review).

15:19:19 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:19:29 <dgarijo> tlebo: yes, it will be a save as in mercurial

Timothy Lebo: yes, it will be a save as in mercurial

15:19:53 <dgarijo> pgroth: could anybody else volunteer to review?

Paul Groth: could anybody else volunteer to review?

15:20:11 <SamCoppens> I will review it also

Sam Coppens: I will review it also

15:20:18 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

15:20:18 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

15:20:20 <GK> (I may, but reluctant to over-commit right now)

Graham Klyne: (I may, but reluctant to over-commit right now)

15:20:34 <dgarijo> luc: macTed?

Luc Moreau: macTed?

15:20:43 <dgarijo> macTed: I'll try to have a look

Ted Thibodeau: I'll try to have a look

15:20:49 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:20:49 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:20:50 <Luc> @paul, could you remind us the timing for review

Luc Moreau: @paul, could you remind us the timing for review

15:21:05 <dgarijo> paul: so sam an macTed as new reviewers.

Paul Groth: so sam an macTed as new reviewers.

15:21:28 <pgroth> april 9th

Paul Groth: april 9th

15:21:35 <dgarijo> pgroth: monday is the release, April 9th is the due date for the reviews.

Paul Groth: monday is the release, April 9th is the due date for the reviews.

15:21:38 <Zakim> -??P22

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P22

15:21:49 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:22:09 <GK> q+

Graham Klyne: q+

15:22:17 <dgarijo> ... will try to reach consensus on 12 or 19th depending on the feedback. On monday we'll send an email to remember everyone

... will try to reach consensus on 12 or 19th depending on the feedback. On monday we'll send an email to remember everyone

15:22:17 <pgroth> ack GK

Paul Groth: ack GK

15:22:34 <Luc> they will be emailed on Monday

Luc Moreau: they will be emailed on Monday

15:22:38 <dgarijo> GK: Can I ask for confirmation of the URIs of the docs to be reviewed.

Graham Klyne: Can I ask for confirmation of the URIs of the docs to be reviewed.

15:22:54 <dgarijo> pgroth: will send them on monday, when they are ready to be released.

Paul Groth: will send them on monday, when they are ready to be released.

15:22:59 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:23:05 <pgroth> Topic: Prov-Primer

4. Prov-Primer

Summary: The primer will be ready to release on Monday. It was agreed that collections would be postponed until the next working draft of the primer.

<pgroth> Summary: The primer will be ready to release on Monday. It was agreed that collections would be postponed until the next working draft of the primer.
15:23:35 <dgarijo> pgroth: simon couldn't be here, but sent an update: Comments by Stian and Paolo are addrssed.

Paul Groth: simon couldn't be here, but sent an update: Comments by Stian and Paolo are addrssed.

15:23:45 <Zakim> -??P24

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P24

15:23:47 <dgarijo> ... he will have the rest by monday (examples)

... he will have the rest by monday (examples)

15:23:57 <dgarijo> ... he might be postponing collections.

... he might be postponing collections.

15:24:14 <Zakim> +??P22

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P22

15:24:43 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:24:48 <dgarijo> ... questions for the reviewers: The primer doesn't talk that mucho about qualified involvement. What is the opinion of the reviewers about that? Can that be left for a later draft?

... questions for the reviewers: The primer doesn't talk that mucho about qualified involvement. What is the opinion of the reviewers about that? Can that be left for a later draft?

15:24:51 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:24:53 <dgarijo> ... blocking issues?

... blocking issues?

15:24:56 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:25:21 <dgarijo> luc: how do we talk about roles withouth qE?

Luc Moreau: how do we talk about roles withouth qI?

15:25:34 <dgarijo> s/qE/qI
15:25:46 <Luc> yes

Luc Moreau: yes

15:25:50 <stainPhone> time can be mentioned wirh location and custom attributes

Stian Soiland-Reyes: time can be mentioned wirh location and custom attributes

15:25:53 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:26:11 <stainPhone> +1

Stian Soiland-Reyes: +1

15:26:12 <dgarijo> paul: that might be the question he's asking to the reviewers.

Paul Groth: that might be the question he's asking to the reviewers.

15:26:14 <dgarijo> +1

+1

15:26:37 <dgarijo> ... so sounds reasonable to delay the discussion about collections in the primer.

... so sounds reasonable to delay the discussion about collections in the primer.

15:27:05 <dgarijo> luc: agrees.

Luc Moreau: agrees.

15:27:17 <dgarijo> pgroth: I will send an email to Simon.

Paul Groth: I will send an email to Simon.

15:27:19 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:27:26 <pgroth> Topic: PAQ

5. PAQ

Summary: Graham and Paul gave a status update on the PAQ. They think they have addressed most issues. They plan to release something for review by next week if all goes well. There was a discussion around what to use to substitute for entity-uri.

<pgroth> Summary: Graham and Paul gave a status update on the PAQ. They think they have addressed most issues. They plan to release something for review by next week if all goes well. There was a discussion around what to use to substitute for entity-uri.
15:27:29 <stainPhone> and I am Stephan are doing the prov-o mapping of collections.

Stian Soiland-Reyes: and I am Stephan are doing the prov-o mapping of collections.

15:27:40 <pgroth> sure

Paul Groth: sure

15:28:02 <dgarijo> GK: I made a past to the doc simplifying sections.

Graham Klyne: I made a past to the doc simplifying sections.

15:28:20 <dgarijo> ... still to discuss some of the changes with paul.

... still to discuss some of the changes with paul.

15:28:26 <pgroth> updated version is here: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/2b3bd4e1beb1/paq/working/prov-aq.html

Paul Groth: updated version is here: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/2b3bd4e1beb1/paq/working/prov-aq.html

15:28:44 <dgarijo> ... there are still issues to resolve in the doc.

... there are still issues to resolve in the doc.

15:29:31 <dgarijo> ... unify the namespace. Added an appendix. Issues like 70, 211 have been addressed. 233, 76 too.

... unify the namespace. Added an appendix. Issues like 70, 211 have been addressed. 233, 76 too.

15:30:16 <dgarijo> ... should we be changing the prov:entity uri with sime other thing?

... should we be changing the prov:entity uri with sime other thing?

15:30:32 <dgarijo> paul: we need to follow up some of these issues.

Paul Groth: we need to follow up some of these issues.

15:30:39 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy?

15:30:50 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: GK (50%)

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: GK (50%)

15:30:59 <dgarijo> ... how to use sparql and linked data.

... how to use sparql and linked data.

15:31:05 <MacTed> mute would be appreciated on clacky keyboard

Ted Thibodeau: mute would be appreciated on clacky keyboard

15:31:05 <dgarijo> ... with prov.

... with prov.

15:31:36 <dgarijo> ... people wanted to retrieve the prov of entities and activities

... people wanted to retrieve the prov of entities and activities

15:31:37 <dgarijo> Zakim, mute GK

Zakim, mute GK

15:31:37 <Zakim> GK should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: GK should now be muted

15:31:51 <dgarijo> @graham, sorry, I couldn't hear :(

@graham, sorry, I couldn't hear :(

15:31:56 <Zakim> +??P0

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P0

15:32:03 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

15:32:03 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

15:32:09 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:32:11 <Paolo> akim, ??P0 is me

Paolo Missier: akim, ??P0 is me

15:32:11 <MacTed> q+

Ted Thibodeau: q+

15:32:18 <dgarijo> paul: what do the gorup thinks about that?

Paul Groth: what do the gorup thinks about that?

15:32:21 <Zakim> -GK

Zakim IRC Bot: -GK

15:32:21 <stainPhone> provElement or similar?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: provElement or similar?

15:32:24 <Paolo> zakim, ??P0 is me

Paolo Missier: zakim, ??P0 is me

15:32:24 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Paolo; got it

15:32:41 <Zakim> +??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2

15:32:43 <dgarijo> MacTed: distinction between entity and activity is artificial.

Ted Thibodeau: distinction between entity and activity is artificial.

15:32:47 <GK> zakim, ??p2 is me

Graham Klyne: zakim, ??p2 is me

15:32:47 <Zakim> +GK; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +GK; got it

15:33:01 <dgarijo> ... we're building ourselves problems.

... we're building ourselves problems.

15:33:20 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:33:29 <pgroth> ack MacTed

Paul Groth: ack MacTed

15:33:32 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:34:12 <dgarijo> luc: paul mentioned activities and entities. There are a lot of terms with ids (nearly all of them). I don't think it is artificial

Luc Moreau: paul mentioned activities and entities. There are a lot of terms with ids (nearly all of them). I don't think it is artificial

15:34:15 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:35:19 <dgarijo> MacTed: however it is a redefined type. Entitiy has a common usage in the world, and we are using it in a total different way. The struggle to keep that in a different way is the thing that I don't like

Ted Thibodeau: however it is a redefined type. Entitiy has a common usage in the world, and we are using it in a total different way. The struggle to keep that in a different way is the thing that I don't like

15:35:20 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:35:27 <Luc> but this would be teh case for any word we use, wouldn't it?

Luc Moreau: but this would be teh case for any word we use, wouldn't it?

15:35:28 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:35:47 <GK> q+ to ask if any alternative terms have been suggested?

Graham Klyne: q+ to ask if any alternative terms have been suggested?

15:36:33 <Curt> the concept represented by our term entity is inherently complex

Curt Tilmes: the concept represented by our term entity is inherently complex

15:36:33 <dgarijo> pgroth: for the paq we need a term that represents everything with an identity in the model. Maybe provenance element, or ideantifiable.

Paul Groth: for the paq we need a term that represents everything with an identity in the model. Maybe provenance element, or ideantifiable.

15:36:42 <stainPhone> "about" ? ;)

Stian Soiland-Reyes: "about" ? ;)

15:36:43 <GK> Ah...

Graham Klyne: Ah...

15:37:16 <dgarijo> MacTed: it continues to be confusing for us all.

Ted Thibodeau: it continues to be confusing for us all.

15:37:22 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:37:25 <pgroth> ack GK

Paul Groth: ack GK

15:37:25 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to ask if any alternative terms have been suggested?

Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to ask if any alternative terms have been suggested?

15:37:43 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:37:48 <dgarijo> GK: has an alternative name been suggested?

Graham Klyne: has an alternative name been suggested?

15:38:04 <dgarijo> pgroth: maybe we should go back to the paq itself

Paul Groth: maybe we should go back to the paq itself

15:38:28 <dgarijo> ... we will release it next week for people to look at it

... we will release it next week for people to look at it

15:38:28 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:38:32 <Luc> @GK: I agree that one can always propose better names, but for now, we don't have any other suggestion

Luc Moreau: @GK: I agree that one can always propose better names, but for now, we don't have any other suggestion

15:38:41 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:38:46 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:38:47 <GK> @Luc hence my Q :)

Graham Klyne: @Luc hence my Q :)

15:39:07 <dgarijo> luc: what is your timetable. Synchronized release?

Luc Moreau: what is your timetable. Synchronized release?

15:39:14 <dgarijo> pgroth: I don't think so.

Paul Groth: I don't think so.

15:39:52 <Luc> we could release it shortly afterwads

Luc Moreau: we could release it shortly afterwads

15:39:53 <dgarijo> ... it is almost there, but almost everyone is commmitted to reviewing something. And also, it is somehow separate.

... it is almost there, but almost everyone is commmitted to reviewing something. And also, it is somehow separate.

15:40:04 <GK> Not so much "separate" as "orthogonal" ?

Graham Klyne: Not so much "separate" as "orthogonal" ?

15:40:22 <dgarijo> ... next week we'll have something when people have time to review

... next week we'll have something when people have time to review

15:40:55 <dgarijo> GK: I may be travelling next week. Limited internet connection access.

Graham Klyne: I may be travelling next week. Limited internet connection access.

15:41:23 <pgroth> Topic: Namespace Unification

6. Namespace Unification

Summary: Paul reported on an email conversation with Jeni Tennison confirming that using a url with a hash was ok for xml. The group voted to use a common namespace http://www.w3.org/ns/prov# . Paul agreed to create an html index for this namespace and consult Ivan about having content negotiation to the owl file.

<pgroth> Summary: Paul reported on an email conversation with Jeni Tennison confirming that using a url with a hash was ok for xml. The group voted to use a common namespace http://www.w3.org/ns/prov# . Paul agreed to create an html index for this namespace and consult Ivan about having content negotiation to the owl file.
15:41:40 <pgroth>  http://www.w3.org/ns/prov#

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/ns/prov#

15:41:43 <dgarijo> pgroth: last week we talked about the ns unification. The use of the hash

Paul Groth: last week we talked about the ns unification. The use of the hash

15:42:02 <dgarijo> ... is this use violated in rdf/xml serializations?

... is this use violated in rdf/xml serializations?

15:42:20 <dgarijo> ... sandro contacted the xml working group

... sandro contacted the xml working group

15:42:24 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:42:27 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:42:50 <dgarijo> .... they encouraged us to have a common namespace

.... they encouraged us to have a common namespace

15:42:59 <dgarijo> ... the one proposed is fine with xml

... the one proposed is fine with xml

15:43:13 <dgarijo> ... it doesn't really matter what you have.

... it doesn't really matter what you have.

15:43:31 <GK> I'm happy with that resolution.

Graham Klyne: I'm happy with that resolution.

15:43:44 <pgroth> Propose that we use http://www.w3.org/ns/prov# as the common namespace for all prov specs

Paul Groth: Propose that we use http://www.w3.org/ns/prov# as the common namespace for all prov specs

15:43:52 <GK> +1

Graham Klyne: +1

15:43:52 <dgarijo> +1

+1

15:43:54 <Curt> +1

Curt Tilmes: +1

15:43:55 <tlebo> +1

Timothy Lebo: +1

15:43:58 <Zakim> -??P22

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P22

15:44:00 <jcheney> +1

James Cheney: +1

15:44:04 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

15:44:06 <zednik> +1

Stephan Zednik: +1

15:44:07 <SamCoppens> +1

Sam Coppens: +1

15:44:09 <StephenCresswell> +1

Stephen Cresswell: +1

15:44:12 <jun> +1

Jun Zhao: +1

15:44:12 <MacTed> +0

Ted Thibodeau: +0

15:44:26 <Tom_De_Nies> +1

Tom De Nies: +1

15:44:35 <pgroth> Accepted: use http://www.w3.org/ns/prov# as the common namespace for all prov specs

RESOLVED: use http://www.w3.org/ns/prov# as the common namespace for all prov specs

15:44:42 <pgroth> Close ISSUE-224 http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/224

Paul Groth: Close ISSUE-224 http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/224

15:44:45 <dgarijo> pgroth: we can close issue 224

Paul Groth: we can close ISSUE-224

15:45:27 <dgarijo> ... provide an html index to link all the docs toghether.

... provide an html index to link all the docs toghether.

15:45:45 <dgarijo> ... are there volunteers for this?

... are there volunteers for this?

15:45:47 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:45:59 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:46:26 <dgarijo> ... I'll go ahead and start doing it after monday

... I'll go ahead and start doing it after monday

15:46:52 <dgarijo> ... I'll need some help

... I'll need some help

15:46:55 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:47:10 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:47:17 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:47:32 <dgarijo> luc: regarding collections: 3 relations are being proposed.

Luc Moreau: regarding collections: 3 relations are being proposed.

15:47:46 <pgroth> Topic: Collections

7. Collections

Summary: Luc raised the problem of naming relations for collections. There was limited comment.

<pgroth> Summary: Luc raised the problem of naming relations for collections. There was limited comment.
15:48:03 <dgarijo> ... do we want to have the same form (in the past) as the o ther properties?

... do we want to have the same form (in the past) as the o ther properties?

15:48:17 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:48:21 <dgarijo> it would be nice to have some input

it would be nice to have some input

15:48:32 <GK> What's the anticip[ated context of use?

Graham Klyne: What's the anticip[ated context of use?

15:49:06 <Paolo> q+

Paolo Missier: q+

15:49:14 <pgroth> ack Paolo

Paul Groth: ack Paolo

15:49:46 <dgarijo> paolo: any time you want to track the prov of the collection.

Paolo Missier: any time you want to track the prov of the collection.

15:49:51 <jun> do we have a link to the proposal?

Jun Zhao: do we have a link to the proposal?

15:50:11 <GK> SO, if it's for tracking provenance of collections as well as members, I think using the same form is appropriate.

Graham Klyne: SO, if it's for tracking provenance of collections as well as members, I think using the same form is appropriate.

15:50:50 <dgarijo> ... for workflows is more important (to know if an element of the collection belonged to an execution, etc)

... for workflows is more important (to know if an element of the collection belonged to an execution, etc)

15:50:55 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

<pgroth> Topic: Substitute for entity-URI in PAQ

8. Substitute for entity-URI in PAQ

Summary: The group returned to the conversation around what to use instead of entity-uri in the PAQ. In order to support, the retrieval of provenance for other provenance constructs (e.g. activity). Luc suggested to use the term "resource". Graham and Paul agreed that this is maybe a good option and to investigate more.

<pgroth> Summary: The group returned to the conversation around what to use instead of entity-uri in the PAQ. In order to support, the retrieval of provenance for other provenance constructs (e.g. activity). Luc suggested to use the term "resource". Graham and Paul agreed that this is maybe a good option and to investigate more.
15:51:47 <dgarijo> paul: I want to come back about the name in the PAQ for entity URI

Paul Groth: I want to come back about the name in the PAQ for entity URI

15:52:29 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:52:30 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:52:31 <dgarijo> ... any suggestions would be helpful

... any suggestions would be helpful

15:52:42 <dgarijo> luc: why not resource?

Luc Moreau: why not resource?

15:53:00 <dgarijo> - Provenance element? provenance resource?

- Provenance element? provenance resource?

15:53:30 <dgarijo> gk: It was because we wanted to have a way of talking about the views.

Graham Klyne: It was because we wanted to have a way of talking about the views.

15:54:02 <dgarijo> paul: the scruffyness of the dm allows us to refer to resource.

Paul Groth: the scruffyness of the dm allows us to refer to resource.

15:54:30 <dgarijo> gk: I'm trying to see what are the implications about this. I'm not sure

Graham Klyne: I'm trying to see what are the implications about this. I'm not sure

15:54:48 <dgarijo> ... I would have to check the rest of the document. Maybe works.

... I would have to check the rest of the document. Maybe works.

15:54:58 <dgarijo> luc: It is a reasonable suggestions

Luc Moreau: It is a reasonable suggestions

15:55:50 <dgarijo> pgroth: the distinction between entity/process is more a dm problem.

Paul Groth: the distinction between entity/process is more a dm problem.

15:56:12 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:56:17 <dgarijo> ... you could raise an issue, MacTed, and propose other names.

... you could raise an issue, MacTed, and propose other names.

15:56:24 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:56:31 <dgarijo> Luc: do you have suggestions for other names?

Luc Moreau: do you have suggestions for other names?

15:56:59 <Curt> we went through other terms people didn't like.... They don't like entity either, but it was left standing after other terms were eliminated.

Curt Tilmes: we went through other terms people didn't like.... They don't like entity either, but it was left standing after other terms were eliminated.

15:57:01 <dgarijo> ... that was the best one we came up with. We used to have Bob (and we don't want to go back there).

... that was the best one we came up with. We used to have Bob (and we don't want to go back there).

15:57:09 <pgroth> +1 curt

Paul Groth: +1 curt

15:57:21 <dgarijo> ... the only way to move forward is through new proposals

... the only way to move forward is through new proposals

15:57:25 <GK> q+ to say I think I can see a way to revising PAQ 1.2 to remove "entity" and just talk about "resource" without losing the essence of the material

Graham Klyne: q+ to say I think I can see a way to revising PAQ 1.2 to remove "entity" and just talk about "resource" without losing the essence of the material

15:57:44 <dgarijo> MacTed: I don't think we are the first people to look at these questions.

Ted Thibodeau: I don't think we are the first people to look at these questions.

15:58:09 <dgarijo> pgroth: the conclusion is: If you have a better name for consideration, feel free to propose it.

Paul Groth: the conclusion is: If you have a better name for consideration, feel free to propose it.

15:58:18 <pgroth> ack GK

Paul Groth: ack GK

15:58:18 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say I think I can see a way to revising PAQ 1.2 to remove "entity" and just talk about "resource" without losing the essence of the material

Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to say I think I can see a way to revising PAQ 1.2 to remove "entity" and just talk about "resource" without losing the essence of the material

15:58:46 <dgarijo> GK: we can eliminate the term entity without loosing much in the doc.

Graham Klyne: we can eliminate the term entity without loosing much in the doc.

15:59:29 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:59:36 <dgarijo> pgroth: good bye everyone

Paul Groth: good bye everyone

15:59:39 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt_Tilmes

15:59:44 <Zakim> -tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo

15:59:44 <dgarijo> ... and good luck for monday

... and good luck for monday

15:59:47 <Zakim> -pgroth

Zakim IRC Bot: -pgroth

15:59:49 <Zakim> -jcheney

Zakim IRC Bot: -jcheney

15:59:52 <Zakim> -Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc

15:59:55 <Zakim> -jun

Zakim IRC Bot: -jun

15:59:57 <Zakim> -GK

Zakim IRC Bot: -GK

16:00:00 <Zakim> -dgarijo

Zakim IRC Bot: -dgarijo

16:00:03 <Zakim> -Paolo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Paolo

16:00:04 <pgroth> daniel I'll do the minutes

Paul Groth: daniel I'll do the minutes

16:00:05 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

16:00:07 <Zakim> -sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -sandro

16:00:09 <Zakim> -??P10

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P10

16:00:09 <dgarijo> ok, thanks!

ok, thanks!

16:00:12 <dgarijo> bye!

bye!

16:00:17 <Zakim> -Tom_De_Nies

Zakim IRC Bot: -Tom_De_Nies

16:00:27 <Tom_De_Nies> bye!

Tom De Nies: bye!

16:00:47 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, set log public

16:00:53 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes

Paul Groth: rrsagent, draft minutes

16:00:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/29-prov-minutes.html pgroth

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/29-prov-minutes.html pgroth

16:00:58 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon

Paul Groth: trackbot, end telcon

16:00:58 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

16:01:06 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:01:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/29-prov-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/29-prov-minutes.html trackbot

16:01:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

16:01:07 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items

16:01:08 <GK> @Paul: would you like me take to a pass at this while it's fresh in my mind (s/entity/resource/)

Graham Klyne: @Paul: would you like me take to a pass at this while it's fresh in my mind (s/entity/resource/)



Formatted by CommonScribe


This revision (#2) generated 2012-03-30 13:00:49 UTC by 'pgroth', comments: 'edited prov-dm summary'