IRC log of prov on 2012-03-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:51:51 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
14:51:53 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:51:53 [Zakim]
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14:51:55 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be
14:51:55 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:51:56 [trackbot]
Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:51:56 [trackbot]
Date: 29 March 2012
14:51:59 [pgroth]
Zakim, this will be PROV
14:51:59 [Zakim]
ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
14:52:17 [pgroth]
14:52:29 [pgroth]
Chair: Paul Groth
14:52:47 [pgroth]
Scribe: Daniel Garijo
14:52:58 [pgroth]
Regrets: Simon Miles
14:53:05 [pgroth]
rrsagent, make logs public
14:53:39 [jun]
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14:54:39 [Zakim]
SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
14:54:46 [Zakim]
14:54:48 [dgarijo]
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14:55:45 [Zakim]
14:55:57 [dgarijo]
Zakim, ??P15 is me
14:55:57 [Zakim]
+dgarijo; got it
14:56:08 [dgarijo]
scribe: dgarijo
14:56:27 [Zakim]
+ +329331aaaa
14:56:58 [Zakim]
14:57:29 [Tom_De_Nies]
Zakim, +329331aaaa is me
14:57:29 [Zakim]
+Tom_De_Nies; got it
14:59:45 [tlebo]
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14:59:59 [Curt]
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15:00:01 [Zakim]
15:00:06 [Paolo]
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15:00:27 [Zakim]
15:01:18 [SamCoppens]
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15:01:31 [Tom_De_Nies]
Zakim, Tom_De_Nies is with SamCoppens
15:01:47 [Zakim]
sorry, Tom_De_Nies, I do not recognize a party named 'SamCoppens'
15:01:53 [Zakim]
15:01:56 [Zakim]
15:01:56 [jcheney]
Zakim, ??P50 is me
15:02:02 [jun]
zakim, ??P43 is me
15:02:20 [Zakim]
+jcheney; got it
15:02:29 [Zakim]
+jun; got it
15:02:38 [Zakim]
15:02:56 [Paolo]
zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me
15:03:08 [Zakim]
15:03:10 [Zakim]
+Paolo; got it
15:03:12 [pgroth]
15:03:19 [pgroth]
Zakim, who is on the call?
15:03:19 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [IPcaller], dgarijo, Tom_De_Nies, Luc, tlebo, Curt_Tilmes, jcheney, jun, Paolo, ??P49
15:03:28 [pgroth]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:03:30 [Zakim]
+pgroth; got it
15:03:49 [dgarijo]
15:03:58 [StephenCresswell]
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15:04:07 [pgroth]
Minutes last telco:
15:04:15 [dgarijo]
15:04:21 [Curt]
15:04:23 [Tom_De_Nies]
15:04:24 [tlebo]
15:04:28 [jcheney]
15:04:30 [GK1]
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15:04:33 [Paolo]
15:05:01 [Zakim]
15:05:06 [pgroth]
Approved: Minutes of the March 22 2012 Telecon
15:05:15 [GK]
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15:05:24 [dgarijo]
pgroth: open actions
15:05:32 [dgarijo]
... there is still 1 open, on me
15:05:48 [dgarijo]
... I think the action is done (new version of the paq)
15:05:58 [dgarijo]
... next topic: reminder about the scribes
15:06:27 [Zakim]
15:06:28 [dgarijo]
... welcome to Tom De Nies
15:06:35 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:06:35 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
15:06:37 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
15:06:37 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
15:06:43 [dgarijo]
tom: colleague of SamCoppens
15:07:05 [dgarijo]
... work in enrichment of news and provenance assessment of news. Very happy to be here
15:07:12 [pgroth]
15:07:19 [dgarijo]
paul: questions?
15:07:23 [pgroth]
Topic: PROV-DM
15:07:35 [Zakim]
15:07:36 [dgarijo]
pgroth: stauts update?
15:07:39 [Luc]
15:08:11 [GK]
Zakim, ??P16 is me
15:08:11 [Zakim]
+GK; got it
15:08:20 [MacTed]
it would be VERY helpful if links to relevant docs can always be included in (added to) the Agenda
15:08:22 [dgarijo]
luc:We've been working quite hard on the model. The documents are ready today (deadline is monday). In the wikipage there is a to do list and most of the items are covered.
15:08:31 [Paolo]
"align collection productions [PM]" done, actually
15:08:40 [dgarijo]
... invalidation will not be covered. It will be written and merged separately.
15:08:49 [Zakim]
15:08:55 [zednik]
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15:09:03 [dgarijo]
... for provn we've done checks for everything except collections
15:09:09 [Paolo]
@Luc collections productions done this morning
15:09:14 [sandro]
sorry, previous meeting ran late.
15:09:16 [dgarijo]
... constraints part has not been started.
15:09:24 [Zakim]
15:09:33 [dgarijo]
... will try to have it for monday, although we are not sure.
15:09:38 [pgroth]
15:09:43 [dgarijo]
pgroth: questions?
15:09:45 [tlebo]
15:09:54 [pgroth]
ack tlebo
15:10:00 [Paolo]
:collection (paolo) -- fix the constraints to allow for multiple contained() assertions" --> please see my mail this morning re: this
15:10:11 [dgarijo]
tlebo: curious about the "finished today but still something to do for monday"
15:10:16 [Paolo]
(have to go, sorry in between trains)
15:10:25 [Zakim]
15:10:27 [dgarijo]
luc: part 2 is the one we are going to start tomorrow.
15:10:33 [pgroth]
15:10:53 [Tom_De_Nies]
Zakim, mute me
15:10:53 [Zakim]
Tom_De_Nies should now be muted
15:10:56 [tlebo]
(DM and N are finished today, CONSTRAINTS is for Monday.)
15:11:05 [dgarijo]
luc: we have identified a number of questions for reviewers:
15:11:24 [dgarijo]
... can the doc be released as a fwd?
15:11:29 [dgarijo]
... blockers?
15:12:16 [dgarijo]
... reviewers with pending issues please confirm if they can be clsoed
15:12:25 [dgarijo]
15:12:37 [Zakim]
15:12:51 [dgarijo]
... typos gramatical issues can be submitted in issues 331, 332 and 333
15:12:56 [pgroth]
15:13:09 [pgroth]
15:13:12 [Zakim]
15:13:39 [dgarijo]
paul: reviewers for provd and provn can start reviewing now?
15:13:44 [stainPhone]
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15:14:09 [dgarijo]
luc: they could. But there are a few tweaks we'll have to do once we reach the constraints on part to. Up to the reviewers.
15:14:15 [tlebo]
Monday is fine :-)
15:14:17 [Zakim]
15:14:30 [Paolo]
zakim, ??P22 is me
15:14:31 [Zakim]
I already had ??P22 as ??P22, Paolo
15:14:41 [dgarijo]
pgroth: reviewers were: Tim, khalid, curt, jun and...
15:15:14 [dgarijo]
luc: if you are in agreement the we can send a notification on monday
15:15:33 [GK]
I'm not seeing the document URIs at the page posted previuously
15:15:33 [Curt]
I can't really do it until next week anyway
15:15:34 [dgarijo]
pgroth: ok, so wait till monday to begin the review.
15:15:36 [pgroth]
15:15:54 [tlebo]
15:15:55 [pgroth]
Topic: PROV-o
15:16:12 [pgroth]
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15:16:17 [dgarijo]
tlebo: different parts of the team working on different parts of the doc.
15:16:19 [pgroth]
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15:16:34 [dgarijo]
... some questions to the reviewers are on the link posted in the irc
15:16:45 [dgarijo]
... will be ready for review by monday
15:17:01 [Zakim]
15:17:06 [Luc]
where is the prov-o.html document?
15:17:10 [Zakim]
15:17:15 [dgarijo]
tlebo: the organization scheme has changed
15:17:23 [dgarijo]
@Luc: in aquarius :(
15:17:34 [Luc]
15:18:09 [pgroth]
15:18:12 [dgarijo]
tlebo: is it enough to understand everything, are the cross references useful?
15:18:36 [dgarijo]
tlebo: please start to be familiar with the ontology.
15:18:43 [dgarijo]
... should we add more examples.
15:19:13 [dgarijo]
pgroth: would you move this to the w3c site (what people are supposed to review).
15:19:19 [pgroth]
15:19:29 [dgarijo]
tlebo: yes, it will be a save as in mercurial
15:19:53 [dgarijo]
pgroth: could anybody else volunteer to review?
15:20:11 [SamCoppens]
I will review it also
15:20:18 [MacTed]
Zakim, unmute me
15:20:18 [Zakim]
MacTed should no longer be muted
15:20:20 [GK]
(I may, but reluctant to over-commit right now)
15:20:34 [dgarijo]
luc: macTed?
15:20:43 [dgarijo]
macTed: I'll try to have a look
15:20:49 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
15:20:49 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
15:20:50 [Luc]
@paul, could you remind us the timing for review
15:21:05 [dgarijo]
paul: so sam an macTed as new reviewers.
15:21:28 [pgroth]
april 9th
15:21:35 [dgarijo]
pgroth: monday is the release, April 9th is the due date for the reviews.
15:21:38 [Zakim]
15:21:49 [pgroth]
15:22:09 [GK]
15:22:17 [dgarijo]
... will try to reach consensus on 12 or 19th depending on the feedback. On monday we'll send an email to remember everyone
15:22:17 [pgroth]
ack GK
15:22:34 [Luc]
they will be emailed on Monday
15:22:38 [dgarijo]
GK: Can I ask for confirmation of the URIs of the docs to be reviewed.
15:22:54 [dgarijo]
pgroth: will send them on monday, when they are ready to be released.
15:22:59 [pgroth]
15:23:05 [pgroth]
Topic: Prov-Primer
15:23:35 [dgarijo]
pgroth: simon couldn't be here, but sent an update: Comments by Stian and Paolo are addrssed.
15:23:45 [Zakim]
15:23:47 [dgarijo]
... he will have the rest by monday (examples)
15:23:57 [dgarijo]
... he might be postponing collections.
15:24:14 [Zakim]
15:24:43 [pgroth]
15:24:48 [dgarijo]
... questions for the reviewers: The primer doesn't talk that mucho about qualified involvement. What is the opinion of the reviewers about that? Can that be left for a later draft?
15:24:51 [Luc]
15:24:53 [dgarijo]
... blocking issues?
15:24:56 [pgroth]
ack Luc
15:25:21 [dgarijo]
luc: how do we talk about roles withouth qE?
15:25:34 [dgarijo]
15:25:46 [Luc]
15:25:50 [stainPhone]
time can be mentioned wirh location and custom attributes
15:25:53 [pgroth]
15:26:11 [stainPhone]
15:26:12 [dgarijo]
paul: that might be the question he's asking to the reviewers.
15:26:14 [dgarijo]
15:26:37 [dgarijo]
... so sounds reasonable to delay the discussion about collections in the primer.
15:27:05 [dgarijo]
luc: agrees.
15:27:17 [dgarijo]
pgroth: I will send an email to Simon.
15:27:19 [pgroth]
15:27:26 [pgroth]
Topic: PAQ
15:27:29 [stainPhone]
and I am Stephan are doing the prov-o mapping of collections.
15:27:40 [pgroth]
15:28:02 [dgarijo]
GK: I made a past to the doc simplifying sections.
15:28:20 [dgarijo]
... still to discuss some of the changes with paul.
15:28:26 [pgroth]
updated version is here:
15:28:44 [dgarijo]
... there are still issues to resolve in the doc.
15:29:31 [dgarijo]
... unify the namespace. Added an appendix. Issues like 70, 211 have been addressed. 233, 76 too.
15:30:16 [dgarijo]
... should we be changing the prov:entity uri with sime other thing?
15:30:32 [dgarijo]
paul: we need to follow up some of these issues.
15:30:39 [MacTed]
Zakim, who's noisy?
15:30:50 [Zakim]
MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: GK (50%)
15:30:59 [dgarijo]
... how to use sparql and linked data.
15:31:05 [MacTed]
mute would be appreciated on clacky keyboard
15:31:05 [dgarijo]
... with prov.
15:31:15 [Paolo]
Paolo has joined #prov
15:31:36 [dgarijo]
... people wanted to retrieve the prov of entities and activities
15:31:37 [dgarijo]
Zakim, mute GK
15:31:37 [Zakim]
GK should now be muted
15:31:51 [dgarijo]
@graham, sorry, I couldn't hear :(
15:31:56 [Zakim]
15:32:03 [MacTed]
Zakim, unmute me
15:32:03 [Zakim]
MacTed should no longer be muted
15:32:09 [pgroth]
15:32:11 [Paolo]
akim, ??P0 is me
15:32:11 [MacTed]
15:32:18 [dgarijo]
paul: what do the gorup thinks about that?
15:32:21 [Zakim]
15:32:21 [stainPhone]
provElement or similar?
15:32:24 [Paolo]
zakim, ??P0 is me
15:32:24 [Zakim]
+Paolo; got it
15:32:41 [Zakim]
15:32:43 [dgarijo]
MacTed: distinction between entity and activity is artificial.
15:32:47 [GK]
zakim, ??p2 is me
15:32:47 [Zakim]
+GK; got it
15:33:01 [dgarijo]
... we're building ourselves problems.
15:33:02 [Tom_De_Nies]
Tom_De_Nies has joined #prov
15:33:20 [Luc]
15:33:29 [pgroth]
ack MacTed
15:33:32 [pgroth]
ack Luc
15:34:12 [dgarijo]
luc: paul mentioned activities and entities. There are a lot of terms with ids (nearly all of them). I don't think it is artificial
15:34:15 [pgroth]
15:35:19 [dgarijo]
MacTed: however it is a redefined type. Entitiy has a common usage in the world, and we are using it in a total different way. The struggle to keep that in a different way is the thing that I don't like
15:35:20 [pgroth]
15:35:27 [Luc]
but this would be teh case for any word we use, wouldn't it?
15:35:28 [pgroth]
15:35:47 [GK]
q+ to ask if any alternative terms have been suggested?
15:36:33 [Curt]
the concept represented by our term entity is inherently complex
15:36:33 [dgarijo]
pgroth: for the paq we need a term that represents everything with an identity in the model. Maybe provenance element, or ideantifiable.
15:36:42 [stainPhone]
"about" ? ;)
15:36:43 [GK]
15:37:16 [dgarijo]
MacTed: it continues to be confusing for us all.
15:37:22 [pgroth]
15:37:25 [pgroth]
ack GK
15:37:25 [Zakim]
GK, you wanted to ask if any alternative terms have been suggested?
15:37:43 [pgroth]
15:37:48 [dgarijo]
GK: has an alternative name been suggested?
15:38:04 [dgarijo]
pgroth: maybe we should go back to the paq itself
15:38:28 [dgarijo]
... we will release it next week for people to look at it
15:38:28 [pgroth]
15:38:32 [Luc]
@GK: I agree that one can always propose better names, but for now, we don't have any other suggestion
15:38:41 [pgroth]
15:38:46 [Luc]
15:38:47 [GK]
@Luc hence my Q :)
15:39:07 [dgarijo]
luc: what is your timetable. Synchronized release?
15:39:14 [dgarijo]
pgroth: I don't think so.
15:39:52 [Luc]
we could release it shortly afterwads
15:39:53 [dgarijo]
... it is almost there, but almost everyone is commmitted to reviewing something. And also, it is somehow separate.
15:40:04 [GK]
Not so much "separate" as "orthogonal" ?
15:40:22 [dgarijo]
... next week we'll have something when people have time to review
15:40:55 [dgarijo]
GK: I may be travelling next week. Limited internet connection access.
15:41:23 [pgroth]
Topic: Namespace Unification
15:41:40 [pgroth]
15:41:43 [dgarijo]
pgroth: last week we talked about the ns unification. The use of the hash
15:42:02 [dgarijo]
... is this use violated in rdf/xml serializations?
15:42:20 [dgarijo]
... sandro contacted the xml working group
15:42:24 [pgroth]
15:42:27 [pgroth]
ack Luc
15:42:50 [dgarijo]
.... they encouraged us to have a common namespace
15:42:59 [dgarijo]
... the one proposed is fine with xml
15:43:13 [dgarijo]
... it doesn't really matter what you have.
15:43:31 [GK]
I'm happy with that resolution.
15:43:44 [pgroth]
Propose that we use as the common namespace for all prov specs
15:43:52 [GK]
15:43:52 [dgarijo]
15:43:54 [Curt]
15:43:55 [tlebo]
15:43:58 [Zakim]
15:44:00 [jcheney]
15:44:04 [sandro]
15:44:06 [zednik]
15:44:07 [SamCoppens]
15:44:09 [StephenCresswell]
15:44:12 [jun]
15:44:12 [MacTed]
15:44:26 [Tom_De_Nies]
15:44:35 [pgroth]
Accepted: use as the common namespace for all prov specs
15:44:42 [pgroth]
Close ISSUE-224
15:44:45 [dgarijo]
pgroth: we can close issue 224
15:45:27 [dgarijo]
... provide an html index to link all the docs toghether.
15:45:45 [dgarijo]
... are there volunteers for this?
15:45:47 [pgroth]
15:45:59 [pgroth]
15:46:26 [dgarijo]
... I'll go ahead and start doing it after monday
15:46:52 [dgarijo]
... I'll need some help
15:46:55 [pgroth]
15:47:10 [Luc]
15:47:17 [pgroth]
ack Luc
15:47:32 [dgarijo]
luc: regarding collections: 3 relations are being proposed.
15:47:46 [pgroth]
Topic: Collections
15:48:03 [dgarijo]
... do we want to have the same form (in the past) as the o ther properties?
15:48:17 [pgroth]
15:48:21 [dgarijo]
it would be nice to have some input
15:48:32 [GK]
What's the anticip[ated context of use?
15:49:06 [Paolo]
15:49:14 [pgroth]
ack Paolo
15:49:46 [dgarijo]
paolo: any time you want to track the prov of the collection.
15:49:51 [jun]
do we have a link to the proposal?
15:50:11 [GK]
SO, if it's for tracking provenance of collections as well as members, I think using the same form is appropriate.
15:50:50 [dgarijo]
... for workflows is more important (to know if an element of the collection belonged to an execution, etc)
15:50:55 [pgroth]
15:51:47 [dgarijo]
paul: I want to come back about the name in the PAQ for entity URI
15:52:29 [pgroth]
15:52:30 [Luc]
15:52:31 [dgarijo]
... any suggestions would be helpful
15:52:42 [dgarijo]
luc: why not resource?
15:53:00 [dgarijo]
- Provenance element? provenance resource?
15:53:30 [dgarijo]
gk: It was because we wanted to have a way of talking about the views.
15:54:02 [dgarijo]
paul: the scruffyness of the dm allows us to refer to resource.
15:54:30 [dgarijo]
gk: I'm trying to see what are the implications about this. I'm not sure
15:54:48 [dgarijo]
... I would have to check the rest of the document. Maybe works.
15:54:58 [dgarijo]
luc: It is a reasonable suggestions
15:55:50 [dgarijo]
pgroth: the distinction between entity/process is more a dm problem.
15:56:12 [Luc]
15:56:17 [dgarijo]
... you could raise an issue, MacTed, and propose other names.
15:56:24 [pgroth]
ack Luc
15:56:31 [dgarijo]
Luc: do you have suggestions for other names?
15:56:59 [Curt]
we went through other terms people didn't like.... They don't like entity either, but it was left standing after other terms were eliminated.
15:57:01 [dgarijo]
... that was the best one we came up with. We used to have Bob (and we don't want to go back there).
15:57:09 [pgroth]
+1 curt
15:57:21 [dgarijo]
... the only way to move forward is through new proposals
15:57:25 [GK]
q+ to say I think I can see a way to revising PAQ 1.2 to remove "entity" and just talk about "resource" without losing the essence of the material
15:57:44 [dgarijo]
MacTed: I don't think we are the first people to look at these questions.
15:58:09 [dgarijo]
pgroth: the conclusion is: If you have a better name for consideration, feel free to propose it.
15:58:18 [pgroth]
ack GK
15:58:18 [Zakim]
GK, you wanted to say I think I can see a way to revising PAQ 1.2 to remove "entity" and just talk about "resource" without losing the essence of the material
15:58:46 [dgarijo]
GK: we can eliminate the term entity without loosing much in the doc.
15:59:29 [pgroth]
15:59:36 [dgarijo]
pgroth: good bye everyone
15:59:39 [Zakim]
15:59:44 [Zakim]
15:59:44 [dgarijo]
... and good luck for monday
15:59:47 [Zakim]
15:59:49 [Zakim]
15:59:52 [Zakim]
15:59:55 [Zakim]
15:59:57 [Zakim]
16:00:00 [Zakim]
16:00:03 [Zakim]
16:00:04 [pgroth]
daniel I'll do the minutes
16:00:05 [Zakim]
16:00:07 [Zakim]
16:00:09 [Zakim]
16:00:09 [dgarijo]
ok, thanks!
16:00:12 [dgarijo]
16:00:17 [Zakim]
16:00:27 [Tom_De_Nies]
16:00:47 [pgroth]
rrsagent, set log public
16:00:53 [pgroth]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:00:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate pgroth
16:00:58 [pgroth]
trackbot, end telcon
16:00:58 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:01:06 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:01:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
16:01:07 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:01:07 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items
16:01:08 [GK]
@Paul: would you like me take to a pass at this while it's fresh in my mind (s/entity/resource/)