Provenance Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 11 August 2011

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.08.11
Seen
Christine Runnegar, Curt Tilmes, Daniel Garijo, Edoardo (Edoardo, Edoardo_and_David) Pignotti, Graham Klyne, Helena Deus, Ilkay Altintas, James Cheney, Kai Eckert, Khalid Belhajjame, Olaf Hartig, Paul Groth, Paulo Pinheiro da Silva, Reza B'Far, Satya Sahoo, Simon Miles, Stephen Cresswell, Stian Soiland-Reyes, Ted Thibodeau, Vinh Nguyen, Yogesh Simmhan
Regrets
Christine Runnegar
Chair
Paul Groth
Scribe
Helena Deus
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. last week's telcon minutes link
Topics

Last week's minutes were approved

  1. 2nd Questionnaire for Implementation task forces

    Questionnaire feedback taken. Task force to prepare a new questionnaire by next week.

  2. Provenance Ontology

    Progress is being made on reflecting the conceptual model in the ontology. Action to ensure their are cross-links between the conceptual model, the ontology, and and formal model discussion page.

  3. Review of updates to provenance access and query document

    Update on major changes to the PAQ document. Discussion on the relationship between provenance model entity, web resource and target. Action for editors to clarify this point.

  4. Shortcuts and extensions to the provenance model

    No current comments. Members were encouraged to comment on this proposal.

14:53:14 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-prov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-prov-irc

14:53:16 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:53:18 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be

14:53:18 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

14:53:19 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:53:19 <trackbot> Date: 11 August 2011
14:53:22 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV

Paul Groth: Zakim, this will be PROV

14:53:22 <Zakim> ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes

14:54:05 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

14:54:10 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth
14:54:12 <Zakim> +??P1

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P1

14:54:20 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P1 is me

Paul Groth: Zakim, ??P1 is me

14:54:20 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it

14:54:47 <Zakim> +??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2

14:55:07 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, make logs public

14:55:07 <GK> zakim, ??p2 is me

Graham Klyne: zakim, ??p2 is me

14:55:08 <Zakim> +GK; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +GK; got it

14:55:19 <Zakim> + +1.213.290.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.213.290.aaaa

14:55:24 <pgroth> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.08.11
14:55:55 <Yogesh> zakim, +1.213.290 is me

Yogesh Simmhan: zakim, +1.213.290 is me

14:55:56 <Zakim> +Yogesh; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yogesh; got it

14:56:00 <Zakim> + +1.443.987.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.987.aabb

14:56:01 <pgroth> Regrets: Christine Runnegar
14:56:29 <Curt> zakim, +1.443.987.aabb is me

Curt Tilmes: zakim, +1.443.987.aabb is me

14:56:29 <Zakim> +Curt; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Curt; got it

14:57:17 <Zakim> +??P30

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P30

14:58:06 <stain> not many today!

Stian Soiland-Reyes: not many today!

14:59:24 <Zakim> +??P34

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P34

14:59:32 <stain> Zakim: ??P34 is me
14:59:32 <Zakim> + +1.937.343.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.937.343.aacc

14:59:33 <Zakim> +??P33

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P33

14:59:40 <stain> Zakim, ??P34 is me

Stian Soiland-Reyes: Zakim, ??P34 is me

14:59:40 <Zakim> +stain; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +stain; got it

15:00:01 <smiles> zakim, ??P33 is me

Simon Miles: zakim, ??P33 is me

15:00:02 <Zakim> +smiles; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +smiles; got it

15:00:16 <Zakim> + +1.915.747.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.915.747.aadd

15:00:24 <Zakim> +??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17

15:00:34 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P17 is me

Khalid Belhajjame: zakim, ??P17 is me

15:00:34 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +khalidbelhajjame; got it

15:00:35 <Vinh> zakim, 1.937.343.aacc is me

Vinh Nguyen: zakim, 1.937.343.aacc is me

15:00:35 <Zakim> sorry, Vinh, I do not recognize a party named '1.937.343.aacc'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Vinh, I do not recognize a party named '1.937.343.aacc'

15:01:01 <Vinh> zakim, + +1.937.343.aacc is me

Vinh Nguyen: zakim, + +1.937.343.aacc is me

15:01:10 <stain> stain has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.08.11 (stain)

Stian Soiland-Reyes: stain has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.08.11 (stain)

15:01:12 <Zakim> I don't understand '+ +1.937.343.aacc is me', Vinh

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand '+ +1.937.343.aacc is me', Vinh

15:01:20 <Zakim> +??P26

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P26

15:01:26 <kai> zakim, ??P26 is me.

Kai Eckert: zakim, ??P26 is me.

15:01:28 <Paulo> zakim, +1.915.747.aadd is me

Paulo Pinheiro da Silva: zakim, +1.915.747.aadd is me

15:01:43 <Zakim> +kai; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +kai; got it

15:01:47 <Zakim> + +49.302.093.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: + +49.302.093.aaee

15:01:48 <Zakim> +Paulo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Paulo; got it

15:01:52 <Zakim> - +1.937.343.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.937.343.aacc

15:02:02 <Zakim> +??P40

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P40

15:02:22 <jcheney> zakim, ??p40 is me

James Cheney: zakim, ??p40 is me

15:02:31 <Zakim> +??P41

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P41

15:02:44 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jcheney; got it

15:03:13 <Zakim> + +1.937.343.aaff

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.937.343.aaff

15:03:18 <stain> Zakim, who is noisy?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: Zakim, who is noisy?

15:03:22 <Vinh> +1.937.343.aaff is me

Vinh Nguyen: +1.937.343.aaff is me

15:03:40 <Zakim> stain, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (54%), GK (7%), Yogesh (61%)

Zakim IRC Bot: stain, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (54%), GK (7%), Yogesh (61%)

15:03:43 <Zakim> + +1.512.524.aagg

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.512.524.aagg

15:03:48 <Vinh> zakim, +1.937.343.aaff is me

Vinh Nguyen: zakim, +1.937.343.aaff is me

15:04:03 <Zakim> +Vinh; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Vinh; got it

15:04:17 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame

Zakim IRC Bot: -khalidbelhajjame

15:04:29 <Zakim> + +1.216.368.aahh

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.216.368.aahh

<pgroth> TOPIC Admin

Paul Groth: TOPIC Admin

<pgroth> Summary: Last week's minutes were approved
15:04:39 <pgroth>   http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-08-04

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-08-04

15:04:44 <pgroth> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of 04 Aug telecon

Paul Groth: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of 04 Aug telecon

15:04:53 <satya> +!

Satya Sahoo: +!

15:04:54 <Curt> +1

Curt Tilmes: +1

15:04:56 <jcheney> +1

James Cheney: +1

15:04:58 <satya> +1

Satya Sahoo: +1

15:04:59 <kai> +1

Kai Eckert: +1

15:05:00 <khalidbelhajjame> +1

Khalid Belhajjame: +1

15:05:02 <Yogesh> +1

Yogesh Simmhan: +1

15:05:04 <stain> +1 (not there, but good)

Stian Soiland-Reyes: +1 (not there, but good)

15:05:06 <Zakim> +??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17

15:05:09 <smiles> +1

Simon Miles: +1

15:05:17 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P17 is me

Khalid Belhajjame: zakim, ??P17 is me

15:05:18 <Edoardo> +1

Edoardo (Edoardo, Edoardo_and_David) Pignotti: +1

15:05:19 <pgroth> Scribe: Helena Deus

(Scribe set to Helena Deus)

15:05:28 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +khalidbelhajjame; got it

15:05:31 <satya> zakim, +1.216.368.aahh is me

Satya Sahoo: zakim, +1.216.368.aahh is me

15:05:32 <StephenCresswell> +1

Stephen Cresswell: +1

15:05:36 <Zakim> +satya; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +satya; got it

15:05:42 <olaf> +1

Olaf Hartig: +1

15:05:48 <GK> +1

Graham Klyne: +1

15:05:54 <Zakim> +Kingsley_Idehen

Zakim IRC Bot: +Kingsley_Idehen

15:06:01 <MacTed> Zakim, Kingsley_Idehen is OpenLink_Software

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, Kingsley_Idehen is OpenLink_Software

15:06:01 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software; got it

15:06:03 <Lena> minutes approve

minutes approve

<pgroth> Accepted: last week's telcon minutes

RESOLVED: last week's telcon minutes

15:06:05 <Zakim> - +1.512.524.aagg

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.512.524.aagg

15:06:10 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:06:10 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:06:14 <MacTed> Zakim, mut eme

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mut eme

15:06:14 <Zakim> I don't understand 'mut eme', MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'mut eme', MacTed

15:06:16 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:06:16 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:06:24 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here?

15:06:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, GK, Yogesh, Curt, ??P30, stain, smiles, Paulo, kai, +49.302.093.aaee, jcheney, ??P41, Vinh, satya, khalidbelhajjame, MacTed (muted)

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, GK, Yogesh, Curt, ??P30, stain, smiles, Paulo, kai, +49.302.093.aaee, jcheney, ??P41, Vinh, satya, khalidbelhajjame, MacTed (muted)

15:06:26 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Scribes

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Scribes

15:06:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see Helena, Lena, satya, JimM, jcheney, olaf, kai, Edoardo, Paulo, StephenCresswell, smiles, khalidbelhajjame, stain, Curt, Yogesh, Zakim, RRSAgent, pgroth, Vinh, GK,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Helena, Lena, satya, JimM, jcheney, olaf, kai, Edoardo, Paulo, StephenCresswell, smiles, khalidbelhajjame, stain, Curt, Yogesh, Zakim, RRSAgent, pgroth, Vinh, GK,

<pgroth> TOPIC: 2nd Questionnaire for Implementation task forces

1. 2nd Questionnaire for Implementation task forces

Summary: Questionnaire feedback taken. Task force to prepare a new questionnaire by next week.

<pgroth> Summary: Questionnaire feedback taken. Task force to prepare a new questionnaire by next week.
15:06:33 <Zakim> ... MacTed, trackbot, edsu

Zakim IRC Bot: ... MacTed, trackbot, edsu

15:06:57 <pgroth>   http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/W3C_Implementation_Stakeholder_Questionnaire_2nd_Iteration

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/W3C_Implementation_Stakeholder_Questionnaire_2nd_Iteration

15:07:22 <pgroth> Helena: discussing stakeholder questionnaire

Helena Deus: discussing stakeholder questionnaire [ Scribe Assist by Paul Groth ]

15:07:26 <Helena> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/W3C_Implementation_Stakeholder_Questionnaire_2nd_Iteration

http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/W3C_Implementation_Stakeholder_Questionnaire_2nd_Iteration

15:07:45 <Zakim> + +1.512.524.aaii

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.512.524.aaii

15:08:10 <stain> Helena: Came across several concerns, need guidelines. Representation of provenance.

Helena Deus: Came across several concerns, need guidelines. Representation of provenance. [ Scribe Assist by Stian Soiland-Reyes ]

15:08:16 <pgroth> thanks stain

Paul Groth: thanks stain

15:08:45 <stain> Helena: First basic description, second level more on how data was produced, but not everything, third level is complete provenance

Helena Deus: First basic description, second level more on how data was produced, but not everything, third level is complete provenance [ Scribe Assist by Stian Soiland-Reyes ]

15:09:13 <stain> Helena: Use this to create unit test, not yet formulated.

Helena Deus: Use this to create unit test, not yet formulated. [ Scribe Assist by Stian Soiland-Reyes ]

15:09:32 <stain> Helena: Need to contact existing stakeholders if it is OK to publish data

Helena Deus: Need to contact existing stakeholders if it is OK to publish data [ Scribe Assist by Stian Soiland-Reyes ]

15:09:50 <pgroth> +q

Paul Groth: +q

15:09:54 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:09:57 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

15:09:57 <satya> +q

Satya Sahoo: +q

15:10:04 <Zakim> + +1.858.210.aajj

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.858.210.aajj

15:10:09 <pgroth> ack satya

Paul Groth: ack satya

15:10:13 <MacTed> throwing a minor tweak (pre-formed answers) into the "may we share your free-text?" boilerplate...

Ted Thibodeau: throwing a minor tweak (pre-formed answers) into the "may we share your free-text?" boilerplate...

15:10:41 <pgroth> +q

Paul Groth: +q

15:10:45 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

15:10:46 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:10:48 <stain> Satya: Last bit of form asks 'ow do you produce provenance', should we also ask 'how do you collect provenance' ?

Satya Sahoo: Last bit of form asks 'ow do you produce provenance', should we also ask 'how do you collect provenance' ? [ Scribe Assist by Stian Soiland-Reyes ]

15:10:52 <Lena> satya: should we also keep track of the tools are used to track provenance

Satya Sahoo: should we also keep track of the tools are used to track provenance

15:11:28 <Zakim> +??P54

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P54

15:11:36 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

15:11:37 <MacTed> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/W3C_Implementation_Stakeholder_Questionnaire_2nd_Iteration#Email_to_contact_stakeholders_regarding_privacy_of_questionnaire_responses

Ted Thibodeau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/W3C_Implementation_Stakeholder_Questionnaire_2nd_Iteration#Email_to_contact_stakeholders_regarding_privacy_of_questionnaire_responses

15:11:52 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:11:54 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

15:11:54 <DGarijo> Zakim, ??P54 is me

Daniel Garijo: Zakim, ??P54 is me

15:11:55 <satya> ack pgroth

Satya Sahoo: ack pgroth

15:11:55 <Zakim> +DGarijo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +DGarijo; got it

15:12:49 <Zakim> + +1.714.454.aakk

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.714.454.aakk

<pgroth> TOPIC: Provenance Ontology

2. Provenance Ontology

Summary: Progress is being made on reflecting the conceptual model in the ontology. Action to ensure their are cross-links between the conceptual model, the ontology, and and formal model discussion page.

<pgroth> Summary: Progress is being made on reflecting the conceptual model in the ontology. Action to ensure their  are cross-links between the conceptual model, the ontology, and and formal model discussion page.
15:13:12 <Lena> satya: had model telco on monday

Satya Sahoo: had model telco on monday

15:13:24 <Lena> satya: adding query of example scenario

Satya Sahoo: adding query of example scenario

15:13:49 <Lena> satya: adding diagrams to illustrate constructs of the ontology (help users to understand axioms in the ontology)

Satya Sahoo: adding diagrams to illustrate constructs of the ontology (help users to understand axioms in the ontology)

15:14:29 <satya> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology

Satya Sahoo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology

15:15:02 <Lena> satya: calling for comments on "roles"

Satya Sahoo: calling for comments on "roles"

15:15:12 <Lena> satya: how should role be modelled in different scenarios?

Satya Sahoo: how should role be modelled in different scenarios?

15:15:19 <pgroth> +q

Paul Groth: +q

15:15:22 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

15:15:24 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:15:30 <jcheney> +q

James Cheney: +q

15:15:36 <smiles> q+

Simon Miles: q+

15:15:37 <pgroth> ack jcheney

Paul Groth: ack jcheney

15:16:01 <satya> James is referring to: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/93fc4f6af76d/ontology/ProvenanceFormalModel.html

Satya Sahoo: James is referring to: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/93fc4f6af76d/ontology/ProvenanceFormalModel.html

15:16:04 <Helena> jcheney: went over owl document and identified properties that could be formalized in the ontology

James Cheney: went over owl document and identified properties that could be formalized in the ontology

15:16:44 <satya> good point James! - I missed that point

Satya Sahoo: good point James! - I missed that point

15:17:05 <DGarijo> q+

Daniel Garijo: q+

15:17:41 <Helena> jcheney: how to represent n-ary relationships in owl

James Cheney: how to represent n-ary relationships in owl

15:19:00 <Helena> pgroth: modify the provenance formal model using anchors

Paul Groth: modify the provenance formal model using anchors

15:19:17 <GK> Re n-ary relations: http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-n-aryRelations/

Graham Klyne: Re n-ary relations: http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-n-aryRelations/

15:19:38 <pgroth> action: jcheney put anchors into the Provenance Model

ACTION: jcheney put anchors into the Provenance Model

15:19:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-34 - Put anchors into the Provenance Model  [on James Cheney - due 2011-08-18].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-34 - Put anchors into the Provenance Model [on James Cheney - due 2011-08-18].

15:19:42 <stain> (but it does have anchors..? http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/93fc4f6af76d/ontology/ProvenanceFormalModel.html#time for instance)

Stian Soiland-Reyes: (but it does have anchors..? http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/93fc4f6af76d/ontology/ProvenanceFormalModel.html#time for instance)

15:19:55 <pgroth> ack smiles

Paul Groth: ack smiles

15:20:26 <DGarijo> @GK wi didn't wat to declare the relationships as classes in the ontology

Daniel Garijo: @GK wi didn't wat to declare the relationships as classes in the ontology

15:20:43 <DGarijo> @GK that's why we have used another approach by Satya

Daniel Garijo: @GK that's why we have used another approach by Satya

15:21:19 <pgroth> @james this should be identifying the html anchors in the provenance model to be used

Paul Groth: @james this should be identifying the html anchors in the provenance model to be used

15:21:21 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:21:58 <DGarijo> @GK I meant We didn't want, no Wi didn't wat...

Daniel Garijo: @GK I meant We didn't want, no Wi didn't wat...

15:22:23 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

15:22:26 <Helena> smiles: location - what is it supposed to be? how should it be represented? formal model vs conceptual model inconsistencies

Simon Miles: location - what is it supposed to be? how should it be represented? formal model vs conceptual model inconsistencies

15:23:35 <khalidbelhajjame> q

Khalid Belhajjame: q

15:23:37 <khalidbelhajjame> +q

Khalid Belhajjame: +q

15:24:02 <IlkayAltintas> How does the sensor working group identify location?

Ilkay Altintas: How does the sensor working group identify location?

15:24:04 <Helena> smiles: location in the pil model can be defined by another standards?

Simon Miles: location in the pil model can be defined by another standards?

15:24:13 <pgroth> ack DGarijo

Paul Groth: ack DGarijo

15:25:11 <stain> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#concept-Use

Stian Soiland-Reyes: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#concept-Use

15:25:15 <GK> Thatwas *two* changes, wasn't it?  Simple case "uses" -> "used".  "Is used by" is also inverse relation.

Graham Klyne: Thatwas *two* changes, wasn't it? Simple case "uses" -> "used". "Is used by" is also inverse relation.

15:25:22 <Helena> DGarijo: should have "uses"relationship instead of "usedBy" -> from Luc's comment on the wiki

Daniel Garijo: should have "uses"relationship instead of "usedBy" -> from Luc's comment on the wiki

15:25:39 <stain> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/93fc4f6af76d/ontology/ProvenanceFormalModel.html#isusedby is in the past

Stian Soiland-Reyes: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/93fc4f6af76d/ontology/ProvenanceFormalModel.html#isusedby is in the past

15:27:01 <satya> @Ilkay: I think the sensor incubator group? uses OGC term for location

Satya Sahoo: @Ilkay: I think the sensor incubator group? uses OGC term for location

15:27:14 <Helena> pgroth: keep track of deviations between conceptual model and ontology

Paul Groth: keep track of deviations between conceptual model and ontology

15:28:03 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:28:13 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

15:28:21 <Zakim> - +1.858.210.aajj

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.858.210.aajj

15:28:22 <pgroth> ack khalidbelhajjame

Paul Groth: ack khalidbelhajjame

15:28:25 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:29:11 <Helena> khalidbelhajjame: many relationships in the conceptual model may need to be ignored

Khalid Belhajjame: many relationships in the conceptual model may need to be ignored

15:29:20 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:29:23 <Helena> khalidbelhajjame: that is why they appear to be inconsistent

Khalid Belhajjame: that is why they appear to be inconsistent

15:29:32 <satya> @Khalid: I agree

Satya Sahoo: @Khalid: I agree

15:29:35 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

<pgroth> TOPIC: Review of updates to provenance access and query document

3. Review of updates to provenance access and query document

Summary: Update on major changes to the PAQ document. Discussion on the relationship between provenance model entity, web resource and target. Action for editors to clarify this point.

<pgroth> Summary: Update on major changes to the PAQ document. Discussion on the relationship between provenance model entity, web resource and target. Action for editors to clarify this point.
15:29:53 <Helena> pgroth: provenance access and query document

Paul Groth: provenance access and query document

15:30:47 <Helena> GK: drafted 2 proposals ofr an http inteface for prov discovery

Graham Klyne: drafted 2 proposals ofr an http inteface for prov discovery

15:31:01 <Helena> GK: first was not the interface developers were hoping to see

Graham Klyne: first was not the interface developers were hoping to see

15:31:21 <Helena> GK: second proposal goes back to first principles and treats it as a REST interface

Graham Klyne: second proposal goes back to first principles and treats it as a REST interface

15:31:51 <Helena> GK: adding "concepts" section/review and refine terminology (converging on the model document term.)

Graham Klyne: adding "concepts" section/review and refine terminology (converging on the model document term.)

15:32:08 <Helena> GK: added discussion about the issues of discovering provenance

Graham Klyne: added discussion about the issues of discovering provenance

15:32:42 <Helena> GK: link header -> recommend use of the anchor parameter

Graham Klyne: link header -> recommend use of the anchor parameter

15:33:31 <Helena> pgroth: first version did not allow the define the "entity"

Paul Groth: first version did not allow the define the "entity"

15:33:47 <Helena> pgroth: added the notion of target as well as a resource within the set of concepts

Paul Groth: added the notion of target as well as a resource within the set of concepts

15:34:05 <Helena> pgroth: that is the anchor or url that can be used to find the provenance of something

Paul Groth: that is the anchor or url that can be used to find the provenance of something

15:34:12 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:34:15 <Yogesh> q+

Yogesh Simmhan: q+

15:34:18 <GK> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/tip/paq/provenance-access.html

Graham Klyne: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/tip/paq/provenance-access.html

15:34:30 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy?

15:34:41 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: GK (10%), Yogesh (89%)

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: GK (10%), Yogesh (89%)

15:35:17 <Helena> Yogesh: multiple provenance URI and target URI -> will provenance uri have provenance about the target uri?

Yogesh Simmhan: multiple provenance URI and target URI -> will provenance uri have provenance about the target uri?

15:35:31 <Helena> pgroth: they could or could not have that infor

Paul Groth: they could or could not have that infor

15:35:52 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:35:53 <Helena> pgroth: provenance information may or may not have provenance about a target uri

Paul Groth: provenance information may or may not have provenance about a target uri

15:35:57 <pgroth> ack Yogesh

Paul Groth: ack Yogesh

15:36:16 <Helena> Yogesh: does it make sense to define which provenance uri describe which target uri?

Yogesh Simmhan: does it make sense to define which provenance uri describe which target uri?

15:36:19 <GK> q+

Graham Klyne: q+

15:36:29 <Helena> pgroth: how to bind a target to a particular set of proveance information?

Paul Groth: how to bind a target to a particular set of proveance information?

15:36:45 <Helena> pgroth: particulalry because a target could show up in many provenance info URI

Paul Groth: particulalry because a target could show up in many provenance info URI

15:36:50 <pgroth> ack GK

Paul Groth: ack GK

15:36:52 <GK> q-

Graham Klyne: q-

15:37:09 <MacTed> bad psuedotriple --     { <provenanceURI> :primaryTopic <targetURI> }

Ted Thibodeau: bad psuedotriple -- { <provenanceURI> :primaryTopic <targetURI> }

15:37:23 <Helena> GK:  html link element is hard to use because does not work like anchor

Graham Klyne: html link element is hard to use because does not work like anchor

15:37:43 <stain> @pgroth, I think that makes sense, it's up to the provenance itself to say something about the target's provenance

Stian Soiland-Reyes: @pgroth, I think that makes sense, it's up to the provenance itself to say something about the target's provenance

15:37:58 <khalidbelhajjame> +q

Khalid Belhajjame: +q

15:38:12 <pgroth> ack khalidbelhajjame

Paul Groth: ack khalidbelhajjame

15:38:14 <Yogesh> q+

Yogesh Simmhan: q+

15:38:17 <Zakim> + +1.858.210.aall

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.858.210.aall

15:38:20 <MacTed> or ... { <provenanceURI> :describes <targetURI> }

Ted Thibodeau: or ... { <provenanceURI> :describes <targetURI> }

15:38:20 <MacTed> or ... { <targetURI> :describedBy <provenanceURI> }

Ted Thibodeau: or ... { <targetURI> :describedBy <provenanceURI> }

15:38:57 <stain> vu

Stian Soiland-Reyes: vu

15:39:00 <Helena> khalidbelhajjame: provenance doc show say how to access the provenance of a particular entity -> would also allow connecting resource with entity

Khalid Belhajjame: provenance doc show say how to access the provenance of a particular entity -> would also allow connecting resource with entity

15:39:18 <Helena> pgroth: addressing the common case for access

Paul Groth: addressing the common case for access

15:39:29 <Helena> pgroth: in html -> what's the provenance of the page?

Paul Groth: in html -> what's the provenance of the page?

15:39:47 <Helena> pgroth: need to make that compatible with the notions from the model

Paul Groth: need to make that compatible with the notions from the model

15:39:51 <stain> but is <provenanceURI> allowed to talk about <provenanceURI> even if it does not say how it was made? Like <provenanceURI> pil:usedBy :someProcess

Stian Soiland-Reyes: but is <provenanceURI> allowed to talk about <provenanceURI> even if it does not say how it was made? Like <provenanceURI> pil:usedBy :someProcess

15:39:56 <Helena> pgroth: not clear in that case that a resource is an entity

Paul Groth: not clear in that case that a resource is an entity

15:39:56 <GK> (Expectation that the provenance itself would be explicit about what it applies to.)

Graham Klyne: (Expectation that the provenance itself would be explicit about what it applies to.)

15:40:30 <Helena> pgroth: html page could be a entity (target uri)

Paul Groth: html page could be a entity (target uri)

15:40:40 <GK> I already noted I think we need to add examples to make this area clearer.

Graham Klyne: I already noted I think we need to add examples to make this area clearer.

15:40:54 <satya> sorry I did not understand - What is the difference between resource and entity?

Satya Sahoo: sorry I did not understand - What is the difference between resource and entity?

15:41:07 <pgroth> zakim, who's noisy?

Paul Groth: zakim, who's noisy?

15:41:17 <Zakim> pgroth, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (19%), GK (4%), khalidbelhajjame (28%), +1.512.524.aaii (5%)

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (19%), GK (4%), khalidbelhajjame (28%), +1.512.524.aaii (5%)

15:41:23 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:41:57 <Helena> Yogesh: notion of resource in the access document -> should be raised as an issue with the conceptual model; the vocabulary was not sufficient to describe how to access provenance

Yogesh Simmhan: notion of resource in the access document -> should be raised as an issue with the conceptual model; the vocabulary was not sufficient to describe how to access provenance

15:42:04 <Helena> pgroth: that's not the role of the model

Paul Groth: that's not the role of the model

15:42:13 <GK> I think khalid has a point... I think we need to clarify what we're trying to say and revisit.

Graham Klyne: I think khalid has a point... I think we need to clarify what we're trying to say and revisit.

15:42:13 <satya> I agree with your point Khalid - but I am trying to understand why are we differentiating between resource and entity?

Satya Sahoo: I agree with your point Khalid - but I am trying to understand why are we differentiating between resource and entity?

15:42:28 <Helena> Yogesh: had to use new notion "resource" to describe how to access provenance of things

Yogesh Simmhan: had to use new notion "resource" to describe how to access provenance of things

15:42:32 <stain>  I believe "resource" in PAQ doc is just a normal web resource, right?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: I believe "resource" in PAQ doc is just a normal web resource, right?

15:42:38 <MacTed> q?

Ted Thibodeau: q?

15:42:42 <Helena> pgroth: need to connect to web architecture; use web architecture terms

Paul Groth: need to connect to web architecture; use web architecture terms

15:42:42 <MacTed> q+

Ted Thibodeau: q+

15:42:50 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

15:42:50 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

15:43:05 <pgroth> ack Yogesh

Paul Groth: ack Yogesh

15:43:25 <Helena> Yogesh: why use of target in http header (instead of anchor)?

Yogesh Simmhan: why use of target in http header (instead of anchor)?

15:43:32 <satya> Following on Khalid's point, can't we model web resource as type of entity?

Satya Sahoo: Following on Khalid's point, can't we model web resource as type of entity?

15:44:13 <MacTed> +1 satya (that's what my queue+ is about...)

Ted Thibodeau: +1 satya (that's what my queue+ is about...)

15:44:39 <Reza_BFar> Another option would be to create an indirection layer between a web resource and an entity and use something like XSL/XSLT to specify possible transformations as an extension... though this adds complexity which would be undesirable.

Reza B'Far: Another option would be to create an indirection layer between a web resource and an entity and use something like XSL/XSLT to specify possible transformations as an extension... though this adds complexity which would be undesirable.

15:44:57 <Helena> call a concept instead of a target?

call a context instead of a target?

15:45:37 <GK> s/concept/context/
15:45:37 <Helena> pgroth: reusing terminology from http specification, need ot make sure they "mean" what they "say"

Paul Groth: reusing terminology from http specification, need ot make sure they "mean" what they "say"

15:45:38 <Reza_BFar> +1 on terminology from Paul.

Reza B'Far: +1 on terminology from Paul.

15:45:51 <GK> HTTP uses "anchor" IIRC

Graham Klyne: HTTP uses "anchor" IIRC

15:45:54 <Helena> DGarijo: http uses target in the wrong way

Daniel Garijo: http uses target in the wrong way

15:46:20 <Helena> MacTed: a web resource is a resource; a subclass of an entity

Ted Thibodeau: a web resource is a resource; a subclass of an entity

15:46:24 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 for Jim

Khalid Belhajjame: +1 for Jim

15:46:28 <Helena> MacTed: conceptual framework MUST maintain that!

Ted Thibodeau: conceptual framework MUST maintain that!

15:46:30 <GK> How is resource a subclass of entity?

Graham Klyne: How is resource a subclass of entity?

15:46:44 <Helena> MacTed: if we dont' treat it as so, we break everything

Ted Thibodeau: if we dont' treat it as so, we break everything

15:46:47 <GK> A rsource is a thing that can be named

Graham Klyne: A rsource is a thing that can be named

15:47:02 <DGarijo> @Helena I wasn't the one talking :)

Daniel Garijo: @Helena I wasn't the one talking :)

15:47:04 <Helena> MacTed: an entity may be of any type of class (e.g. web reousrce is an entity IF it can be named)

Ted Thibodeau: an entity may be of any type of class (e.g. web reousrce is an entity IF it can be named)

15:47:06 <GK> All of those entoties are also resources.

Graham Klyne: All of those entoties are also resources.

15:47:24 <Helena> MacTed: provenance is not just about where a web page comes from

Ted Thibodeau: provenance is not just about where a web page comes from

15:47:34 <GK> I think we have crossed wires here.  Not sure where right now.

Graham Klyne: I think we have crossed wires here. Not sure where right now.

15:47:35 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:47:53 <Helena> MacTed: e.g. a picture on a usb stick is not a web resource, but it does have provenance

Ted Thibodeau: e.g. a picture on a usb stick is not a web resource, but it does have provenance

15:48:12 <Helena> pgroth: provenance model document describes "entity"

Paul Groth: provenance model document describes "entity"

15:48:15 <GK> I agree with most of what @MacTed said, except as noted...

Graham Klyne: I agree with most of what @MacTed said, except as noted...

15:48:22 <Helena> pgroth: in terms of the provenance model document

Paul Groth: in terms of the provenance model document

15:48:24 <Curt> back to BOB vs. entity?

Curt Tilmes: back to BOB vs. entity?

15:49:17 <Helena> q+

q+

15:49:22 <pgroth> ack MacTed

Paul Groth: ack MacTed

15:49:38 <GK> I agree with @MacTed --  it's not the *web* resource that's special or distinct here...

Graham Klyne: I agree with @MacTed -- it's not the *web* resource that's special or distinct here...

15:49:45 <GK> (per se)

Graham Klyne: (per se)

15:50:03 <Helena> MacTed: provenance of entities is intertwined

Ted Thibodeau: provenance of entities is intertwined

15:50:13 <Helena> MacTed: provenance should NOT be just about web resources

Ted Thibodeau: provenance should NOT be just about web resources

15:50:25 <Helena> MacTed: provenacne document should allow that

Ted Thibodeau: provenacne document should allow that

15:50:31 <pgroth> ack Helena

Paul Groth: ack Helena

15:50:50 <jcheney> I thought we all agreed previously that "provenance should NOT be just about web resources"

James Cheney: I thought we all agreed previously that "provenance should NOT be just about web resources"

15:51:06 <jcheney> (or at least it was generally the consensus)

James Cheney: (or at least it was generally the consensus)

15:51:35 <GK> @jcheney yes, I agree - and I think this discussion has become crossed if that's how it sounds

Graham Klyne: @jcheney yes, I agree - and I think this discussion has become crossed if that's how it sounds

15:52:16 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:52:18 <GK> q+ to suggest that paul and I should go and clarify between ourselves, then come back with revised proposal.document

Graham Klyne: q+ to suggest that paul and I should go and clarify between ourselves, then come back with revised proposal.document

15:52:25 <satya> Lena: Why should entity be different in query and access document from provenance model?

Helena Deus: Why should entity be different in query and access document from provenance model? [ Scribe Assist by Satya Sahoo ]

15:52:32 <khalidbelhajjame> @paul, the provenoce model does not use resource, PAQ does

Khalid Belhajjame: @paul, the provenoce model does not use resource, PAQ does

15:52:35 <GK> Sorry hunting mute button

Graham Klyne: Sorry hunting mute button

15:52:47 <satya> @GK :)

Satya Sahoo: @GK :)

15:54:09 <Zakim> +??P6

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P6

15:54:26 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:54:26 <Reza_BFar> I agree with Paul on that the treatment in Query is different than the Model.  The overwhelming use-case, IMHO, of how you "Query" a provenance provider will be through some http related interface hence lending itself to URI

Reza B'Far: I agree with Paul on that the treatment in Query is different than the Model. The overwhelming use-case, IMHO, of how you "Query" a provenance provider will be through some http related interface hence lending itself to URI

15:54:35 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:54:38 <pgroth> ack GK

Paul Groth: ack GK

15:54:38 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to suggest that paul and I should go and clarify between ourselves, then come back with revised proposal.document

Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to suggest that paul and I should go and clarify between ourselves, then come back with revised proposal.document

15:54:45 <GK> q-

Graham Klyne: q-

15:55:01 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:55:02 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:55:23 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

<pgroth> TOPIC: Shortcuts and extensions to the provenance model

4. Shortcuts and extensions to the provenance model

Summary: No current comments. Members were encouraged to comment on this proposal.

<pgroth> Summary: No current comments. Members were encouraged to comment on this proposal.
15:55:26 <pgroth>   http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#shortcuts-and-extensions

Paul Groth: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#shortcuts-and-extensions

15:55:27 <Helena> pgroth: propose shortcuts and extensions added to the provenance model document

Paul Groth: propose shortcuts and extensions added to the provenance model document

15:55:36 <pgroth> ack satya

Paul Groth: ack satya

15:55:37 <GK> ACTION: paul and graham to clarify what we mean by entity vs target vs resource

ACTION: paul and graham to clarify what we mean by entity vs target vs resource

15:55:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-35 - And graham to clarify what we mean by entity vs target vs resource [on Paul Groth - due 2011-08-18].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-35 - And graham to clarify what we mean by entity vs target vs resource [on Paul Groth - due 2011-08-18].

15:56:18 <Zakim> - +1.714.454.aakk

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.714.454.aakk

15:56:30 <stain> which points are those..?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: which points are those..?

15:56:40 <Zakim> - +1.858.210.aall

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.858.210.aall

15:56:44 <satya> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/71

Satya Sahoo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/71

15:57:29 <smiles> q+

Simon Miles: q+

15:57:56 <smiles> q-

Simon Miles: q-

15:57:56 <Helena> pgroth: minimal list of what is useful to have (e.g. something like attribution)

Paul Groth: minimal list of what is useful to have (e.g. something like attribution)

15:58:42 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:58:52 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:59:16 <satya> will add comments to mailing list thread

Satya Sahoo: will add comments to mailing list thread

15:59:44 <Zakim> - +1.512.524.aaii

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.512.524.aaii

15:59:47 <Zakim> -satya

Zakim IRC Bot: -satya

15:59:47 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame

Zakim IRC Bot: -khalidbelhajjame

15:59:48 <Zakim> - +49.302.093.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: - +49.302.093.aaee

15:59:49 <Zakim> -Paulo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Paulo

15:59:50 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

15:59:52 <Zakim> -DGarijo

Zakim IRC Bot: -DGarijo

15:59:54 <Zakim> -jcheney

Zakim IRC Bot: -jcheney

15:59:56 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, set log public

15:59:56 <Zakim> -kai

Zakim IRC Bot: -kai

15:59:58 <Zakim> -??P6

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P6

16:00:00 <Zakim> -Yogesh

Zakim IRC Bot: -Yogesh

16:00:02 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes

Paul Groth: rrsagent, draft minutes

16:00:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-prov-minutes.html pgroth

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-prov-minutes.html pgroth

16:00:02 <Zakim> -smiles

Zakim IRC Bot: -smiles

16:00:04 <Zakim> -Curt

Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt

16:00:08 <Zakim> -??P30

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P30

16:00:09 <pgroth> trackbot, end telecon

Paul Groth: trackbot, end telecon

16:00:09 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

16:00:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:00:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-prov-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-prov-minutes.html trackbot

16:00:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

16:00:11 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-prov-actions.rdf :

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-prov-actions.rdf :

16:00:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jcheney put anchors into the Provenance Model  [1]

ACTION: jcheney put anchors into the Provenance Model [1]

16:00:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-prov-irc#T15-19-38

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-prov-irc#T15-19-38

16:00:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: paul and graham to clarify what we mean by entity vs target vs resource [2]

ACTION: paul and graham to clarify what we mean by entity vs target vs resource [2]

16:00:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-prov-irc#T15-55-37

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/08/11-prov-irc#T15-55-37

16:00:15 <Zakim> -??P41

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P41

16:00:23 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, GK, +1.213.290.aaaa, Yogesh, Curt, +1.937.343.aacc, stain, smiles, khalidbelhajjame, kai, +49.302.093.aaee, Paulo, jcheney,

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, GK, +1.213.290.aaaa, Yogesh, Curt, +1.937.343.aacc, stain, smiles, khalidbelhajjame, kai, +49.302.093.aaee, Paulo, jcheney,



Formatted by CommonScribe


This revision (#1) generated 2011-08-11 16:24:20 UTC by 'pgroth', comments: 'added topic headers. Made minor formatting changes'