ISSUE-466

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/466

CS: example where role doesn't map; i.e. role="main"
... example of table element with role="main"
... IE puts "main" in AriaRoles property and leaves table role in AAPI
... one of the other browsers does not expose the role so it acts like role="presentation"

JC: Safari does not expose the table semantics

DB: possible that FF is similar to IE - with landmarks, treat them like bookmarks
... there aren't good mappings - probably expose as table role with object attribute for the landmark

JC: the only way to get consistent behavior then is tell authors not to put landmark roles on elements with other semantics
... James Nurthen thought he had a bug - redefined the role but browser didn't honor it

CS: do we need to specify this in the UAIG?
... don't know what the authoring guidance currently says
... think of landmark roles as being different from widgets or other structure
... you can be both "main" and a "table" - should be allowed
... as we start talking about patterns or other mechanisms, allows a forward path

JC: think clear thing to do is direct authors not to use landmarks on semantic roles

CS: seems advisory - would like to leave a path forward for other mechanisms

JC: spec says there can be only one role at a time

CS: the core question is - when we say "not mapped", do we mean "ignore" or treat it as presentation?
... in HTML, usually unknown things are ignored
... what happens to the children of the table [<tr>s and <td>s]?

JC: James Nurthen raised this issue - he was trying to retrofit old software and could not add <div> elements around the table
... JN wanted the table semantics to disappear but it didn't work when he added the role of landmark

CS: can you use role="main presentation"?

JC: no, that doesn't work
... it was a layout table in JN's example

CS: but there could be a data table that is the main part of the page, why do you have to wrap that in an extra <div>?

JC: seems like you would want to wrap that in a <div>

DB: for new development, isn't there something in HTML5 you can use?

JC: could use the <main> element but on a retrofit, he wasn't able to do that

CS: 1. what happens when you retrofit and how bad is that problem? 2. what is best path forward?

<jcraig_> So if we decide this is correct, we should tell the authors to never use landmarks on elements with native semantics <table role="main"> <form role="complementary">

DB: workaround - practice has cropped up - datatable="0" - Windows thing

<Zakim> jcraig_, you wanted to say by your logic <main role="table"> should also be both main and table

JC: if do <table role="main"> then should also do <main role="table"> which goes against HTML5

DB: think landmarks should have been an attribute (aria-landmark)
... to have the landmark override seems like regressing accessibility, FF chose to expose both and let AT decide

<davidb> JC: given that isn't an option now, think safer to have it explicitly override the role.

<davidb> CS: where there is no mapping we would (lose semantics?)

<davidb> JC: the author has chosen to explicitly override

<jcraig_> JC: if even JamesN didn't understand this, how would you expect a normal author to understand that difference.

<jcraig_> CS: I expect normal authors to have a different understanding than the experts.

DB: IE & FF are leaving this up to the AT by exposing all of the information
... that is a problem, the spec suggests that we should only be exposing one role
... want consistency in how things are overridden - if one AT uses the ARIA role and another uses the semantic role, it's inconsistent

CS: simplest path forward is to tell users not to do that

JC: what exactly are we telling authors? don't use landmark roles on elements that have native semantics

CS: doesn't HTML5 say something about landmark roles not overriding strong semantics?

<davidb> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/content-models.html#wai-aria

SN: reading the spec, there's nothing about landmark roles not overriding native semantics and nothing about tables having strong semantics that can't be overridden

CS: one option is to define in the UAIG how this must be done (either IE/FF model or Safari model)
... other option is to tell authors not to do this

JC: suggest adding to HTML5 spec and the Authoring Practices Guide

CS: people are making different assumptions about what "not mapped" means
... could leave it like that or put a "may" or "should" after the table: "things that are not mapped may override"

JC: could define what "not mapped" means - think it means something different in the OS X column than in the other columns

CS: does it mean ignore or override?

JC: would be okay with a MAY requirement for not mapped
... MAY leaves the door open for the way IE and FF do it

CS: and we tell authors not to do it - address it in ARIA 2.0
... UAIG will allow either behavior - need a MAY statement
... UAIG - UAs MAY use the generic role or use the existing role
... need authoring guidance telling them not to

<davidb> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/925

ACTION-925

SN: in IE, throw system alert if you change the display status of the element that has role="alert" or "alertdialog" but not if change the display status of the parent

JC: one of hundreds of examples

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_role_table

AS: UAIG says the UA should fire a system alert event but doesn't say when

JC: could fire it whenever focus is inside the dialog
... for alertdialog
... a little more difficult for live regions

DB: performance concern on the side of AT?

JC: both AT and rendering agent

DB: about mutation happening in aria-live="assertive" container

JC: or changes on parent of that container

DB: not sure of current FF behavior - would have to research what FF does and why

JC: if there's an easy set of hueristics we can use, that's fine - otherwise, we're going to have inconsistencies - maybe they just get reported as bugs
... ex: for alertdialog, when focus moves into the dialog, fire the event
... not sure there are easy heuristics for live regions

DB: need to get all the information about how IE and FF do alerts in these scenarios
... reads from ARIA spec about what happens with aria-live="assertive"
... says user should be notified immediately - should try to accommodate but can put most of the onus on web developer

JC: fire a system alert event "when shown" is nebulous because of the multitude of ways you can do that in a web browser
... if keep it nebulous allows for inconsistencies, may be good for competitiveness but not necessarily good for the accessibility community
... authoring practice approach might be the best approach for now until we fix all the bugs or find the magic heuristics that will solve all the problems

<davidb> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14503

Andi to add some of this discussion to bug 14503. David will add anything he digs up.

Andi to propose that this action be deferred to post-Last Call

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136  of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

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No ScribeNick specified.  Guessing ScribeNick: Andi
Inferring Scribes: Andi
Default Present: David_Bolter, Andi_Snow_Weaver, James_Craig, Cynthia_Shelly, Sharon_Newman
Present: David_Bolter Andi_Snow_Weaver James_Craig Cynthia_Shelly Sharon_Newman
Got date from IRC log name: 06 Dec 2011
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/12/06-aapi-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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