W3C Ubiquitous Web Domain

Third W3C Web and TV Workshop

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19-20 September, 2011

Hollywood, California, USA

Hosted by Comcast Cable

W3C gratefully acknowledges the generous support of Comcast to make this Workshop possible.

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W3C thanks Tomo-Digi for its support of this Workshop.

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Return to Workshop home page.


See the Attendees list.


Workshop Day 1 - Monday, September 19th

  Welcome and Scene Setting

Moderator: Karen Myers & Kaz Ashimura (W3C)

Scribe: Alan Bird (W3C)

  1. Brief introduction from the Organizing Committee — Kaz Ashimura (W3C) [slides]
  2. Welcome to the Workshop — Jeff Jaffe (W3C) [slides]
  3. Keynote: Addressing HTML5’s Gaps for TV Services — Sree Kotay (Comcast) [paper, slides]
  4. HTML5 Overview — Philippe Le Hégaret (W3C) [slides]
  5. Web and TV IG Overview
    • IG Interim Report — Yosuke Funahashi (Tomo-Digi) [slides]
    • Home Networking Task Force — Giuseppe Pascale (Opera) [slides]
    • Media Pipeline Task Force — Clarke Stevens (CableLabs) [slides]
  6. Q&A

Next Steps

Requirements document - it's almost complete - published on Web & TV Wiki

Recommendation on how we move forward - this is just a start

scribe: part of that is to potentially work with rechartered DAP WG
... this is why the report lists all the different things done by the taskforce members

Options: Close Task Force and join Working Group that takes over work


Kaz: introduces Clarke Stevens, CableLabs

<giuseppe> The HNTF req. document draft is available here: http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/HNTF/Home_Network_TF_Requirements

Media Pipeline Task Force Update

Charged with coming up with requirements mapping gaps Sree pointed out earlier to HTML5

scribe: We have followed Guiseppe's work in setting up and running a task force
... [reviews details of what task force is covering]
... currently not considering adaptive streaming formats but that may change
... we decided to include DRM support.

Key Topics

TV Services - thingns not normally done on web but required in TV experience

scribe: required as TV moves to not traditional platforms

Multi-screen Video

Video Tag Enhancements - having programmability is important

Time Synchronization - important for things like advertising and other sorts of experiences

Continuous Streams

Adaptive Streaming


Stereo Video Support - very active topic right now

have had 18 use cases submitted

Home Networking is a little ahead of us. We'll be going over first draft this week.

scribe: Had some DRM requirements submitted.
... Had 4 use cases accepted and others near acceptance
... and have draft requriements document ready for review

[What's Left slide]

[schedule slide]

That's basically it. I want you to encourage you to participate in the IG on Thursday.

Kaz: Q&A Period

Ralph Brown: A procedural question

scribe: How do you take a recommendation from the Home Networking Task Force and reach a decision on where it should go?

Guiseppe: Will go with recommendation of the group

Jeff: Wether it's a new WG or changed charter for an existing WG we get the membership involved in that process
... The Advisory Committee has the proposed charter / enhancement and they comment
... If they think we got it wrong they can make a recommendation on what should happen

Kaz: We will talk about the details of the IG recommendation during the meetings on Wed/Thurs

PH: I wanted to make comments on comment made by Sree about we blew it on mobile
... In thinking about it I think you are right. We didn't manage to get the web community
... excited when demand was there.

It's good we've stared early in TV and it's great to involve the right people in the dialogue.

scribe: There is a panel tomorrow to hear from the browser vendors on how they see all of this.

Sree: I do think a couple of things. It's not over in mobile yet, it's just getting started.
... It's not clear what's going to happen in all these areas. If we start early there is the chance to have the path come out differently.
... I think one of the reasons the mobile didn't evolve is that it focused to much on the browsers.

Tony Jasionowski, Panasonic: I have a question for Mr. Koty. Did the charts you showed include people that are watching on IPTV as well?

Sree: In general it's TV connected devices so not just traditional TV. Viewership of video on PCs has declined relative to TV. It appears they want to watch it on TV vs. other platforms.

Tony: So it's inclusive of Over the Top watching.

JanL: what's the progress of issues raised with HTML5

PLH: You raised a set of issues against the HTML5 Specification?
... If they were raised by end of Last call they will be addressed by end of 2012.

JanL: When will we start seeing responses on the bugs?

PLH: You can engage with the Chairs and get the information that way?

JanL: Will the WG proactively engage with the task forces?

PLH: There are ways to get that done at TPAC and other venues.

Craig HBO: To Sree's point of the 1:1 relation for devices to browsers.

[Sree comments on situation in EMEA]

[discussion not heard]

<dsinger> Bill Sheppard, Oracle (ex-Sun) asks about persistent headless apps...

<Nav> I can repeat the question atleast: I asked Sree (who had mentioned that Media Pipeline standardization and programmability is key) if the effort underway at Cablelabs met his need for "not botching up" [Question by nav@motorola.com]

Sree: Covers potential solutions that vary based on device and location

Some of the visibility for the home network is important.

scribe: We're pushing hard with Opera and others that they need to address the home network
... might be professional content as well.

I think the other thing is that we do think that having some model for the cloud is important as we need to see the home network as a part of that.


Break until 1100

  Session 1 / Content Provider and Consumer Perspective - Panel

Moderator: Ralph Brown (CableLabs)

Scribe: Karen Myers (W3C)


  • Craig Cuttner (HBO)
  • Paul Gavalis (ESPN/Disney)
  • Glenn Goldstein (MTVN)
  • Bill Mandel (Universal Pictures)
  • Jay Myers (BestBuy.com)
  • Cyril Rickelton-Abdi (Turner)
  • Duncan Rowden (BBC)

Karen: Ralph Brown, CTO CableLabs is moderating

Ralph introduces panel

* Craig Cuttner (HBO)

* Paul Gavalis (ESPN/Disney)

* Glenn Goldstein (MTVN)

* Bill Mandel (NBCUniversal)

* Jay Myers (BestBuy.com)

* Cyril Rickelton-Abdi (Turner)

* Duncan Rowden (BBC)

Ralph: Jay, I'd like to start with you and get a consumer perspective
... what are concerns and expectations from consumers
... and implications for un-met expectations?

Jay: I've done research in stores with customers
... customers see applications native on TV
... some are not aware that they have browsers in them
... some splintering into apps and native apps
... native is winning right now
... our employees and consumers are not aware they are web accessible
... challenge to make people more informed
... challenge for group is to go with HTML5 technologies
... that are supported over multiple platforms
... we struggle with multiple development kits
... developing for Google Android, other platforms
... how will network perform; some technical issues that customers experience
... some observations we have made
... can get into more detail
... but those we can get into

Ralph: does that resonate with others on the panel

Glenn Goldstein, MTV: our platform was always web all the time

scribe: Flash because of it its ubiquity we thought of it as part of browser
... mobile environment, users are like collecting badges
... lots of cute icoms
... flavored device to show what is important to you
... opposite culture; may be tough to swing pendulum back
... web vs app
... culture
... also offer experiences all want
... we are playing with MP player
... doing oK in Safari
... but doing native app
... we take HTML5 player, run it there
... but take advantage of freedoms
... we have developed in this environment
... but have hand cuffs
... would be interesting if HTML5 apps find themselves in an app
... overlays, full screen mode

Duncan Rowdan, BBC: piggy back what Jay said

scribe: consistent offerings over connected devices
... access BBC iPlayer
... same offering as neighbor two blocks down
... when you buy connected device
... don't want to upgrade hardware every two years
... a bit of time to support a certain device
... also have to think about ease of use of devices
... don't want 70-year old grandmother knocking on door
... about how to use a service
... and PC in TV
... need a nice, user experience

Craig Cuttner, HBO: consumer has expectations around TV

scribe: consumer purchasing looks at check boxes at retail
... think about how many of check marks are functional

Jay: yes, agree
... we see huge reluctance to get TV that does not have exactly what they want
... people will holdoff on buying TV
... and instead plug in their PC
... so instead of going forward, going back
... also fear of obsolescence
... what if it doesn't have what I need or won't upgrade
... to next version of software
... fear of buying obsolte TV
... may extend beyond lifecycle

Ralph: so delay of purchase

Jay: yes and adoption of 3D we saw this

Ralph: Let's move to the other end of spectrum
... the studios where content is created
... Bill, I'm interested in your requirements
... what needs to be addressed through browsers and web connected devices

Bill, Universal: developing QC is about a month

scribe: intention of web is to code it
... find place on browsers
... going forward we need more guidance to address QC problem on rapid schedule

Ralph: what about content protection

Bill: quite a moving target
... going from standard def to high def
... as well with mobile
... quite a few services in high def
... ratcheting up security
... and what you do in pay tv space
... see transition
... software with video server
... vs specialized DRM
... see requirements drifting towards that
... allow that to remain a moving target while HTML standards are develope

Ralph: not only question of timing but also qualtiy
... trade-off of quality of content and resolution
... how long and strong content protection needs to be

Bill: there is a huge amount of content on TV
... in past in has been a "science project"
... but now it needs to be a professional grade service

Craig: when we premier content on Web
... some content preceeds
... issue for us, to level certaintly is have platform
... HBO approach, from security perspective,
... would like a responsible entitty
... we know when there is a security issue
... not a unified environment
... whether signed code
... has to get fixed
... open content wants to be free; but not free in business models
... we need the content to be secure
... content recording and abuse as well

Paul, ESPN: we look at accessibility and timings of content

scribe: sports content is short-lived
... try to put in best protection for a given platform
... but also look at how many steps we are asking people to go through

Ralph: other issues
... Turner deals with a lot of issues

Cyril: on TV side of things
... we have been very active and at forefront
... recently launched CNN application
... trying to create a way for the authentication of things
... to be common between all of us
... one of main issues we saw
... if you want to put up content
... you face issue of having to build relationship many times
... need a way to do that in more singular fashion
... multiple platforms is problem
... and authentication point
... evolution of TV
... TV was in the living room
... I sit with my two young kids
... sometimes they like to watch on their iPhones
... that is the way it's going
... we want our content everywhere all the time

Ralph: I think BBC has a different business model and different view

Duncan: we obtain content from third parties

<Tamer> hi

Duncan: we sell content to third particies as well

<Tamer> i'am new here

<Tamer> i'am interesting in the web

Duncan: the means by which BBC observes rights continues to evolve
... get to right balance
... of observing rights and reach as much of public as possible
... and that licencee gets as much value for the money

<scribe> ...new techniques

UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: IP checks, authentication
... tailor the right tech to righ device or platforms
... that we are streaming to
... that can lead to content black-outs
... we continually evolve with the technology as a work-in-process

Ralph: summarize that content protection is a given
... but a lot of variability
... to that whole process

Glenn: content protection should be viewed as a spectrum of poss.
... license packaing
... other techniques
... link protection, encrypted delivery over pipe
... player verification
... maybe a fan taps into content and we may be paying their bandwidth bill
... not only lose content but also issue of bandwith
... can be very expensive, this fragmented world of DRm
... need different platforms

<dsinger> we should talk about same/cross-origin restriction specs

Glenn: need for interoperability ofDRM

Cyril: I see the protection
... spectrum as Paul mentioned
... sports has short shelf life
... news as it airs
... but premium content has to have bigger protection
... quite a gamet
... several levels to put in place
... as window, resolution
... ability to check pages
... multiple platforms...
... a major head-ache

Ralph: so shift to another topic

<scribe> ...closed captioning and sub-titling

UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: creation of closed captioning has to occur somewhere
... how does that work and what if it does not make it to the end?

Craig: in some cases you get a fine

<scribe> ...closed captioning required in devices

UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: when you bring TV into home
... consumer has expectation of how that works
... whether remote control with CC or even formating of how message looks on screen
... debate about whether CC is interchangeable
... how it works is different
... encoding rules, language support, creative processes
... when you bring into home, get many expectations on how it works

Glenn: talk about it in context of browser
... idea of programmability
... we will face choice
... user agent handles it natively
... or access and go to it
... CC happenign
... Flash players, Javascript
... rendering it in overlay
... some trade-offs
... ultimately be better served to have it handled by user agent
... system level function
... I'm all right as long as we agree on the formats to be supported
... timed text formats
... need a standard that all members of the ecosystem can live with
... and whether in-band is bound up
... or out of band off to side
... answer is flexibility

?: testing going on

scribe: very much a creative process
... that captions render on screen a certain way
... regardless of browser or method used
... need to put that in front of the IG
... needs to be done from creative intent

?: high consumer expectation

scribe: same experience across devices
... live sports has challenge of closed captioning
... as we transition to Web and devices
... need to support same level of quality

Ralph: isn't it largely that?

Cyril: yes, largely inbound
... in future may have flexibility to do out of band

Glenn: we are doing out of band now
... most realistic way to getstream to user agents
... several advantages
... author and combine later
... not repackage video file
... VOD out of band can be powerful

<narm_gadiraju> would request the speakers to talk into the mic. Difficult to hear in the back.

Ralph: other comments on CC and subtitle?

Bill: want subtitles to look in certain way
... may want a certain font
... hard to push that out
... graphical subtitles can suit that well
... also timed text

Craig: PC as browser
... morphing
... another thing in ecosystem to look at
... Web is source, not just sink of content
... expectation that is new requirement from TV side of house
... Web side has not had that requirement before

Ralph: last topic to cover
... is parental control
... important issue that really differs by country
... different ways to rate content and control
... get reaction from panel
... how do you deal with that diversity

Craig: fundamental part of experience
... a consumer with informed knowledge and choice is a benefit not a hindrance
... allows consumers to feel more comfortable around the content
... can have an informed choice
... which is important
... devices being legislated by FCC or around world
... is work to be done
... US method is not always well liked
... some systems embedded
... can be used in screen
... a useful comfort factor of consumer being exposed to content and know what it entails

Bill: a challenging problem
... many standards groups have looked at it
... you have a director's cut movie that may be in unrated area
... ratings vary by territories
... a challenging issue that needs to be looked at

Glenn: on site like Nikelodean
... what we do on video player there
... want to make sure HTML supports it
... even if in full screen cannot do overlays
... this is a problem
... interactivity is also a problem
... age gating
... if risque content
... ask to put in birthdate
... but they lie
... part of regulation
... maybe browser implements

Ralph: Jay, do you want to comment on consumer view
... is this an issue that comes up in retail environment

Jay: yes, it comes up
... as a retailer we are separate from implementation of it
... but consumers ask those questions sometimes
... but still see parental control more an isse on computers

Duncan: BBC iPlayer offers parental controls
... a strain because platforms are different
... when we deliver over a WEI
... different user experience form iPlayer or YouTube
... certain amount of consistency needed
... for platforms and content providers

Ralph: any topics I did not cover?

Jay: I am really interested in going forward with this
... may of these issues seem like blockers
... we talk about native HTML5 apps
... what we are losing to native apps
... how long can we wait until it is totally lost
... thinking about mobile experience
... I fear that we need to accelerate things especially with HTML5
... interim approach perhaps
... but need to get real working concrete examples
... a question for the overall audience

Ralph: You'll see some demos later

Jeff Jaffe: I can comment on how quickly it can get done

scribe: in W3C there are some things that take a really long time, sometimes too long, other times really fast
... the difference is participation
... to give a best case example
... with the threat of privacy legislative hanging over web community
... we got a member submission on do not track
... held workshop in April, last month chartered a WG
... and we expect a final spec in 2012
... we got advertisers and new players at table
... I would encourage participation

<dsinger> and, curses, they are meeting this week, so if you are here (like me) you are missing that meeting!! grr!

scribe: and it's up to us

Ralph: would like to open to floor for questions

David Singer, Apple

scribe: one of questions I have not worked out
... but how closely linked are content creator and page creator?
... media content is in a context being designed for it
... if not related, then life gets much more difficult

Craig: in HBO environment, GO is either Flash based or an app
... that is one unified design view
... trouble if you talk to web designer
... still ask a developer about how much custom code is required
... and amazed at how much
... throw content over wall and hope it looks same
... currently all about apps

Glenn: sometimes happy coincidence
... if choose open browser and not app
... some push for more mix and match
... content out there; cannot control everything
... see more cross-overs

Thierry Fautier, Harmonic

scribe: not sure if you follow what is happening in Europe
... moving fast on HbbTV Spec
... will have a complete package
... want to know your perspective on the HbbTV
... an initiative started in Europe to have interactivity
... based on HTML standard
... what is interesting is putting more effort onto DRM protection
... we'll see more on that tomorrow
... a standard that is deployable in the coming quarters

Ralph: isn't that a combination of broadband device with terrestrial?

Thierry: yes

Duncan: you are talking about hybrid set boxes
... no reason why HTML5 could not provide same functionality
... with HTML5 not quite there yet
... HbbTV
... hard to say what will happen
... what will be adopted
... I think it's one of those things we continue to monitor

Silvia Pfeiffer, HTML5 WG IE: I am trying to answer question

scribe: as to what they should do
... if any company wants to solve issues,
... go an implement requirements
... see if you can make it work with the existing specifications
... sometimes your needs are already solved
... if you cannot solve it, then go to HTML WG
... come to this point and cannot solve it

Glenn: which browser?

Silvia: you have diff browsers
... problem of standard in development

<yosuke> [FYI: HbbTV ver.1.0 and ver.1.5 are based on CE-html (HTML4.01). Upcoming HbbTV 2.0 may adopt HTML5.]

Silvia: pick one browser
... develop it and try to solve things in the spec, with javascript
... if you cannot solve it, then get involved
... not the right way to wait until it's settled

Ralph: that is why you are all here
... I will express on the HbbTV front
... seems like a subset of HTML
... suitable for that environment
... what I was hearing was more uniformity and less fragmentation

Glenn: two-way coming
... I had not hear before about the Home Networking initiative [at W3C]
... technologies to facilitate that synchronization
... will be important

Jeff Jaffe: very interesting panel

scribe: I am curious
... DRM standardization
... where should that be done
... what are the right fora?
... W3C, others?

Craig: is it really DRM...obfuscation
... considering security requirements
... maybe DRM virtualization
... just a call
... go through and verify signatures as a trusted client
... and as far as you get
... Ultra Violet discussions
... more about virtualizatoin rather than standardize a system

Ralph: Ultra Violet is the way to go?

Craig: in terms of interoperability in satellite world
... it was simulcrypt
... never got traction in US, but in Europe
... systems that matter
... no room for more

Glenn: standardization work on DASH may be area to focus that

Ralph: yes, we'll talk about DASH in detail later
... ran to the limit

  Session 2 / Multi-screen TV in the Home Network - Demo Session

Moderator: Giuseppe Pascale (Opera)

Scribe: Jan Lindquist (Ericsson)

Presentation/Demo Session:

  1. Hybridcast - Hiroshi Fujisawa (NHK) [paper, slides]
  2. Expanding the Horizontal of Web — Tatsuya Igarashi (Sony) [paper, slides]
  3. A Multi-protocol Home Networking Implementation for HTML5 — Clarke Stevens (CableLabs) [paper, slides]
  4. User Interface Development for SmartTV using Web technology and CEA2014 — George Sarosi (Time Warner Cable) [paper, slides]

announcement, be clear on your questions

at dinner put your name plates in front of your plate

welcomce back

this session is over home network demos

NHK to present a demo

developing advanced hybrid solutions

introduce available service in hybridcast

and give demos

<karen> 13:00 - 14:15 Session 2 / Multi-screen TV in the Home Network - Demo Session

<yosuke> Hiroshi Fujisawa, NHK:

before playing video will explain concepts

tight combination between broadcast and broadband

<karen> Speaker: Hiroshi Fujisawa (NHK) on Hybridcast

here is the view point of japanes broadcast services

broadcasters interested in showing atractive services

there are 3 main blocks

<yosuke> [Slide: Overall architecture of the Hybrid system]

broadcast, serivce provider and receiver

service provider provide applications and content to users

broadcaster can also provide services

will introduce use cases for extension of html5

first demo of Hybridcast video demo from NHK world

watching video

<yosuke> [1st demo, 1: rate synchronization of multiple streams via both broadcasting and telecommunications.]

<yosuke> [1st demo, 2: Closed caption via both broadcasting and telecommunication simultaneously with sync.]

<scribe> done with first example

2nd examples shows multi-screen

watching video

TV and ipad is connected with wifi

showing next example

next example shows scheduled content is interrupted and content becomes temporarily invisible

we want to realize our solutions on html5

questions on demo?

next speaker will give demos on expanding ...

<dcorvoysier> ... The horizontal web

title is expanding the horizontal of web

we cannot achieve everything to be presented but it is our vision

in the first workshop we proposed an API

thsi is only our idea but many peope have participated

and we have discussed the requirements in this use case

during the discussion we had different opinions and we would like to highlight Sony's views

this is not only controlling DLNA devices but exposing an API

thsi will expand the horizontal of web

there are several approaches, three of them

we focus on approach c

we would like to give demo using a tv and tablet

simple demo

show the new UI on how the privacy and security can look like

and how it can look on the browser

description of scenario (a)

<yosuke> (a) Machine-man-machine interface: like W3C has in MMI.

the web become the hub to communicate the device in the home

this does not only realize the dlna services but others

the appilcations communicate directly

some discussions points discussed in the task force

high level api, controls very specific services

low level is a generic discovery and communication API

any services can be achieved through the lower level API

the low level API has potential to realize use cases like 2nd screen example

<yosuke> [An example of high level is the DLNA media renderer.]

if discovery is based on upnp which uses soap for communication

even though low level API can realize the services

this slide shows security aspects and risks

<yosuke> Sony suggests a low level api.

there is a proposal on the different solutions

there are various risks as highlighted in the table

type of API, low or high is indicated if applicable to a risk

the simple solution of IP address is filtered by the UA

this only addresses risk 4

anotehr appraoch warning of discovery device

another which will be part of the demo is the demo, warning of device access by UA

another appraoch is a authentication by the UA

last solution is device provides the the device against the attack

now comes the demo

Bravia will do the renderer

dlna will be used to control this service

tablet will control the tv

by the way Sony has just started to sell the tablet... yesterday I hear

this is the UI of the tablet

video can be accessed directly from the internet

we will play the video that was on the tablet on the tv

left we hae the home network discovery

if that web application starts to discovery the devices

a warning pops up

indicating that access of your location area network device

press ok

discovered two device

a 2nd warning comes up there is an attempt to control the TV

the video is rendered on the TV from the tablet

protocol is dlna

thsi is a very simple demo but it shows the privacy and security solution

this is a sample of the webpage and how the browser setting can control the privacy

one option controls if discovery and access is enabled

second option allows to access a new device, always, query or never

right side the user can cusotomize which devices can be controlled

next presentation from Clarke Stevens

demo is multi-protocol...

demonstration of distribution of commercials in the home network using html5

develop a general applications for this service

there is work done in applet to enable the control of these services

tested on all major browsers

advantage is that the UI can be loaded from the network

here is the basic layout of the demo

appplet is downloaded onto the device

the user can select to enable the services or not

applet is provided by a trusted service provider

now comes the demo

if familiar with upnp we are using 3box model

safari running on mac

a little laptop is simply playing

it is running zeroconf and upnp...

that is where the content is played from

here we get the request to sign the java applet

now the discovery will start

now you see 2 devices

now there is a warning to get access to the service

xbmc is the renderer

the content is being played on laptop

now a demo of zeroconf

music was played

this is the api that is there currently

<bryan> any link to the demo code available?

this is an api that we have deloped together with opera

soon a joint proposal of the new api

there is 1 api that enables discovery

which will work across protocols

this work will be done in dap as a joint collaboration between cablelabs and opera

next and last demo

George from TimeWarnerCable to present next

we worked with Samsung on a demo

access of recording content in the home

we work very much on STB

<yosuke> [Slide: Traditional Cable UI Technology]

STB costs

data carousel is used to download applications to STB

want to move away from that

want to get to CE devices

<yosuke> [Slide: Consumer Owned Devices]

efforts are not so successful

these devices have different OSs

an appication on each of these devices is not realistic

<yosuke> [Slide: Home Networking]

home networking is an important aspect

how to get home devices to talk to each other

today the STB can provide dvr in the home network

we really want to move the logic to the network

get away from the broadcast of data

move it to the network using web techn

<yosuke> [Slide: Web Technologies]

web techn will help achieve this

samsung will show a web browser that achieves this

high speed access will be to achieve our goals

our UI hardly changes today

need techn that allows to move to web

<yosuke> [Slide: Samsung SmartTV]

this demo starts with a samsung tv with a browser using cea-2014

it is based on xhtml

it has some extensions for disovery

it does not have video tag support

this is basically their app store

samsung wanted to take advantage of the smart hub

and how you load applications

<yosuke> [Slide: Architecture]

what we did with our application is we are loading an application from teh samsung services

our application in our servers to the TV

we want to get dvr content to the TV

how we get the contet to the tv

we have method for discovery

we can use upnp discovery

rui is exposed by the stb

<yosuke> [Slide: Discovery - SSDP]

this is the upnp architecture

refer to slide for details

<yosuke> [Slide: Discovery - App Store]

demo to be now shown

<bryan> Can we get the slides posted to the WS site? Also the papers at http://www.w3.org/2011/09/webtv/papers.html are from the 2010 workshop. It would be a lot better to see the author names alongside a link to the papers, rather than the raw directory listing at http://www.w3.org/2011/09/webtv/papers/

loaded an app called TVCable TV

start the applicatoni

first thing it does is start discovery

it uses broot discovery by reading each ip address

when it got an IP address it then give option to start loading content

us is loaded from the services

it queries the network from the server

we were happy wiht the UI

video comes from teh STB

now you manage your schedule

using web services to get info from the STB

all sources are detected

it was an appliction and not a web page

<yosuke> [Slide: Conclusions]

can we use this techn on an embedded device

the flexibility is there

there is work to be done

samsung worked on cea-2014

<Alan> s /there/there/

but prefer that w3c adopts the work from there

the tools to have drm have to be there

work in hntf is very important

question, very interesting demo

intersting the role of the STB

design contraints in the STB are different

<yosuke> [Now Jeff is asking a question.]

there are different constraints

are we adequately represented here

timerwarner has 3 STB's

and 2 are present

want to push STB's to participate more in the future

<yosuke> Clarke:

need to involve the expertise

<yosuke> Igarashi, Sony:

need a clear, stream lined solution on the API level

the issue is not only the ce vendor

it is a question if the consumer wants the higher level TV

the challenge to make the TV more capable

<yosuke> ?, Oracle?:

want to you recommend a standardize this arbetrary service to provide the services in the home

answer, there is not much that is needed

we can load the applications on the stb that can support these services

<scribe> done with session

<Alan> BREAK!

<cyrilrickelton-ab> Anyone in the attendance has painkillers? Superb migraine is killing my day...

<ChrisWilson> cyrilrickelton-ab: I have ibuprofen. I'm in an orange shirt, sitting on the right-hand side of the room

14:45 - 15:30 Session 3 / Multi-screen TV in the Home Network - What's Next? — Panel

Moderator: Matt Hammond (BBC)

Scribe: Karen Myers (W3C)


  • Russell Berkoff (Samsung)
  • Amol Bhagwat (CableLabs) [slides]
  • Jean-Claude Dufourd (Telecom ParisTech)
  • Tatsuya Igarashi (Sony)
  • Jaejeung Kim (KAIST)
  • George Sarosi (Time Warner Cable)
  • Sergey Slovetskiy (Ericsson)

<kaz_> (Self introduction of each panelist)

<kaz_> (sergey, Igarashi, Amol)

Matt: main set of requirements were about accessing, discover services to fine media content and find between devices
... Amol, starting with you
... DLNA is a prime candidate
... so W3C will have to work with those groups; how do see this happening

Amol: specifications are available freely on web site
... that model is similar to W3C specifications
... on DLNA front, guidelines are publicly available
... but not freely available on the web site
... they can be purchased
... but only have hard copies, not soft
... companies realize this issue
... from CableLabs side we are addressing that situation
... responsibility lies on the shoulders of the companies that are common with DLNA and W3C
... there is a simple liaison established between DLNA and W3C
... where questions can be asked on either side
... so that avenue is open for requesting info

Matt: Russell, anything to add?

Russell: yes, I can answer from Samsung perspective
... specs are publicly available with caveat
... that to utilize specifiations you must join the UPnP forum
... and abide by policy
... if you are developing products and wish to use the UPnP mark
... you need to be an implementing member of the forum
... in order to submit product to DLNA you have to have it certified by UPnP
... currently 950+ forum members
... and 120 implementing, doing products
... self certification so not a high bar in UPnP
... W3C members are welcome to join
... at basic level can participate in working levels
... other way would be a formal liaison from W3C to UPnP to request we do something
... That has happened with DLNA
... ask us to do certain standards

Matt: anybody else have thoughts on this?

Igarashi: depends on what we expect
... if W3C would like to conference on product specification, good idea
... we , Sony, suggested low leve API, so the protocol staff will be written by Javascript, and the certification of that kind of software is the another question I would like to ask
... written by Javascript Web App

Matt: Any thoughts about how these groups can make use of UPnP products? How easy to make use

Amol: not sure about certifying
... test and certify the mapping
... As it has been demonstrated, APIs can work on browsers as well
... then organizations like DLNA can see what protocols needs to be executed and test that piece
... maybe that is where we draw the line
... W3C does test applications
... definitely one area for collaboration

Igarashi: DLNA could certify the Web Applications?

JC: not sure that's the case
... W3C APIs would not be subject to compatability issues
... maybe easier or harder to use with UPnP
... issue is can W3C APIs work on more than UPnP
... also accommodate future protocols

Matt: this leads to other interesting issues
... middleware layers to talk to these
... and define high-level APIs
... thoughts on this
... higher level APIs have a trade-off
... may restrict you to functionalizty
... and how complext it is to do applications

Amol: beneficial to have API work on more than one protocol
... I think that should be direction that W3C should take
... API that can work on more than one protocol
... and can work with any protocol that comes in future
... define based on use cases rather than underlying protocol

Russell: I like the discovery model
... ecosystem for standardized binding
... for web content
... the reason I prefer to uniform API
... is that uniform API is written to the lowest common denominator
... cannot exploit richness of ecosystems
... has been 10-15 years of work on metadata
... pity to see that cast aside under guise of a paradigm with no richness to describe content, recording, control home network devices
... need some care in choosing our approach

JC: I would support that approach
... compare UPnP...they don't have the action messages
... not having that would be a pity
... W3C API should allow easy access to the messaging which is present in one and not in the others

George: I would agree with Russell
... we want to be agnostic to the underlying protocols
... our applications developers get frustrated
... at times I like to see both sides
... like to see one protocol
... but not reduce functionality set by trying to be generic

Russell: an ecosystem specific binding

George: would benefit all of us

Sergey: should consider media controls

Matt: looking atother requirements
... we touched on that applications may do services and wish to communicate
... Igarashi, Igarashi, you brought these use cases to the task force and presented on them
... interested in comment on a new working group vs DAP (Device Application Protocol)

Igarashi: we would like stakeholders to discuss the technical discussion

Matt: Work on verticals?
... do you feel that to enable this requires more than just user agent APIs
... other areas that need standardization here?

Igarashi: yes, user agent API

Russell: I am not an expert on OIPF
... I think in home networking WG
... that was one of concerns I had
... what is the web application
... javascript, something else
... I would like to understand that issue better

Amol: I support what Igarshi-san is saying
... if we have a dedicated WG to address specific home networking requiremetns
... work will come to a solution faster
... we will defer to W3C to give us direction
... but there is a need to satisfy these requirements sooner vs later

Russell: I would support a second WG

Matt: So group concensus is to move work into a WG

<kaz_> (everbody nods)

Matt: another topic is migration to other devices
... also position papers submitting other ideas
... what do we feel needs standardizing
... APIs or much more?

JC: web and tv migration service
... answer 3-4 messages
... one being what are apps you have; get me this app; pls get this app from me
... three messages allow you to have one user agent
... pushing apps or requesting apps
... whenever I discussed in past
... and app, widget
... web page plus CSS
... easy to send a URL
... whole app plus context
... if it's been running
... if you have this, it's a small piece of standard and quite powerful
... use cases
... using web app on tablet
... phone call, go out, and your kid has taken tablet with an Angry Birds game going on
... you request widgets running with important thing you were doing

<kaz_> s/web page plus CSS/Widgets are basically package of Web page/SVG and CSS/

JC: when kid has gone to bed, you push back widget to your tablet
... lots of interesting use cases
... potential and ease of use is beneficial

Kim: our perspective is a partial migration
... by migrating a web app running on tv
... just the user interface for control onto your smart phone or handheld device
... and maintaining dependencies
... with the partially migrated interface on smart phone you can control the TV
... this interface is not nearly designed by another desigern
... but by native application
... two types of approaches

<Kiyoko> suma-tofonnnadowo

Kim: streaming user interface onto smart phone
... and clicking
... it sends touch events on the interface so it can be controlled on TV
... another approach by migrating DOM object
... onto handheld device
... it's self-rendered
... by browser on cell phone
... two types of approaches
... for remote user interface
... one of main issues is remote controlling
... content on future web tv could be complicated
... just controlling with button remote control may not be as flexible
... or not provide degree of freedom of control
... I have proposed such user interface by partial integration

Matt: these approaches have different technical solutions
... any thoughts on how W3C should think about htis?

George: our button remote is very limiting
... not sure we want partial apps going to devices
... power of web and URLs is to go back to same application server
... and controlling the remote device and the core device
... but still the basic underlying architecture
... is at an application layer
... have communication between the two
... not sure we want to get at level of specifying that; we will fall short
... how to specify how to do that
... devices as controllers perhaps
... but focus on core level requirements
... and let app developers figure out

Sergey: form-related protocols
... flexibility to provide mark-up
... flexible use cases in and out of home
... PC or specialized embedded browsers
... very important

Matt: one other area is idea of bootstrapping applications
... may rely on device discovery
... how much of that is being served and coming out of home networking task force

George: home networking task force is focusing on this
... in demo we showed, two ways to get at the applicatoin
... one way relies on DLNA discovery
... other way relies on Samsung to load from their server, app store
... would have to have URL bar
... if we want to have service discovery
... within or outside home network to discover service
... we need to be able to specify
... question of how we genericize it

Igarashi-san: we need a more technical discussion about application migration
... was thinking about it locally
... this migration does also support long migration
... if used to separate
... and migrate by that framework

Matt: could repeat?

Igarashi-san: long migration

JC: we haven't really thought about that
... home or extended home
... basically limited number
... in there the security you set up
... and you can separate the problem of security
... could have it all the time
... in home you want to solve it once
... as a group
... long migration meaning not within one home but including different homes we did not look into that
... home environment is always changing
... things go out of battery, get pre-empted
... cannot give a good use case for a long migration

Matt: so we are now looking at more technical discussions to move forward
... questions from the floor?

Kaz: question for Kim
... how to extend capability of home network
... I work for multimodal and voice browser groups as well
... do you think those kind of interfaces could be used for home network devices?

Kim: yes
... I have seen touch event WG
... working on how touch events can work this way
... and combining those with web and tv domain
... there are parts that could be broken off for the other WG as previous session said
... and adding to my talk before
... was the user interface
... the protocols are not W3C's domain
... but I consider the XML Schemas
... for such scenarios
... should be developed for such domain
... for example marking each component
... if migratable
... consider subset and divide sub componenets of web applications
... bring up interesting issues
... don't mean we bring to another large domain
... consider more use cases in this domain

Kaz: so maybe the Web IG can talk about this at the F2F meeting

Matt: no more questions; thank you panel
... coffee break

[There is not a break now...last session to begin]

15: 30 - 17:00 Session 4 / Synchronized Metadata

  Session 4 / Synchronized Metadata

Moderator: John Foliot (W3C Invited Expert)

Scribe: Kaz Ashimura (W3C)


  1. TV Services and Media Transport + demo — Bob Lund + Eric Winkelman (CableLabs) [paper, slides]
  2. Second Screen Displaying Life Logs and TV Contents Information (demo) — Manabu Motegi (NTT) [paper]
  3. HTML5 as a platform for delivering movie extras and interactivity — Jim Helman (MovieLabs) [paper]
  4. WebVTT in HTML5 for video accessibility and beyond — Silvia Pfeiffer (Google) [paper]


  • Jim Helman (MovieLabs)
  • Andrew Kirkpatrick (Adobe)
  • Bob Lund (CableLabs)
  • Manabu Motegi (NTT)
  • Silvia Pfeiffer (Google)
  • David Singer (Apple)
  • Tony Jasionowski (Panasonic)

john: (introduces all the panelists)

john: supporting accessibility
... content navigation by content structure using multimedia information
... where are we today with HTML5?
... track element
... also multilevel naviation
... multi-track API
... but no native support yet
... JavaScript polyfills to the rescue
... we can provide today: subtitles, captions, descriptions, chapters, metadata
... first presentation is TV Services and Media Transport by Bob Lund

- Bob's presentation

bob: TV services, Media Transport and HTMl5
... TV Services
... accessibility services for HTML5
... great news is Webkit implementation
... in-band tracks
... table of TV services and media transport mapping to HTML5
... MPEG-2 transport
... MPEG-2 transport stream examples
... what user agent look for/doesn't look for
... how to do this independent on UA
... what UA should do is creating metadata
... synchronized application triggers
... metadata tracks/content tracks
... identified a couple of issues
... various signals

- Eric's demo

eric: customized version of Chromium

(display on the left side; TV remote on the right side)

eric: video editor too
... client insertion
... 2 signals

(request/response events are displayed)

eric: synchronizing with ads
... alternative approach is to decouple the tracks
... complicated purchasing might take long
... pick a location, show time (push buttons on the TV remote)
... you can also pause the video and specify cue

silvia: is that HTML5 page?

eric: too much to look at...

john: next talk will be Manabu Motegi on second screen

- Manabu's presentation

manabu: Second screen displaying life logs and TV contents information
... concept
... family watches medical program
... father watching tablet, mother as well
... TV program connected to freg.
... use cases
... related photographs will be automatically retrieved and displayed
... problem
... two main problems
... relationship of TV content to life log
... framework
... linking approach
... meta data managed using WebVTT
... tagged with location information
... but how to link metadata and life log?
... using linked open data!
... location information of sightseeing spots
... corresponding to related pictures
... implemented system
... client accesses the HTTP server
... metadata will be sent to the WebSOcket server
... example of photographs
... three photographs are registered with the system
... each photograph is tagged with location information
... example of WebVTT
... each segment has time info (duration) and name
... demo video
... iPad and digital TV
... text info is got from DB Pedia and displayed on iPad
... video info is got from Evernote
... conclusion
... without intentional retrieval
... display info

john: cool

- Jim's talk: HTML5 as a platform for delivering movie extras and interactivity

jim: possible XML format for video
... multi-screen applications
... movie player in your pocket
... blu-ray is tremendously powerful platform
... chaptering, captioning, subtitles
... HTML5 timed text capability
... TTML, WebVTT
... you're allowed multiple formats
... subtitles, enhancement of timeline
... presentation default styling for subtitle
... subtitle and accessibility
... text-based metadata is used
... customer experience is important
... consistency of experience is important
... author and user experiences
... you have 3D, graphic subtitles
... not all the implementations support those features
... maybe some kind of plug-ins could be used
... core standard platform for better user experience is needed

- Silvia's presentation: WebVTT in HTML5 for video accessibility and beyond

silvia: working with John for accessibility TF of HTML-WG
... what is WebVTT
... video time-synchronized text data
... <track> element
... kind="caption"
... captions/subtitles example: video demo
... will edit the WebVTT file
... (and play the video again)
... position of subtitle is specified in WebVTT
... description example
... here again we have a WebVTT file
... (and edit the WebVTT file again)
... (add "Welcome to the W3C Web and TV Workshop")
... next is chapter example
... (specifies chapter, and the video jumps to the specified chapter...)
... metada example
... Apple's demo at WWDC 2011
... has metadata track
... levels of support for formants
... WebVTT, select formants, JavaScript

john: couple of questions

tony: responsible to Panasonic accessibility
... Present Obama's talk regarding accessibility
... captioning for IPTV, etc.
... must be captioned
... actual regulation
... will be issued in January
... you have time, but need to work very quickly

jim: Adobe's accessibility team
... accessibility for video
... also commercial Web
... that's us-based, but similar set of standards in Europe as well
... globally substancial
... we support customers vide, Web development
... don't have fragment with closed captioning
... support for TTML
... WebVTT is new and under development

david: multimedia and accessibility
... in context of a dynamic Web page, how do we achieve accessibility
... very difficult to do
... Google submitted a charter for WebVTT to W3C

tony: written MPRN(?) can not be lessor
... something W3C should pay attention

silvia: when we created accessibility TF (within HTML-WG)
... requirements for styling
... requirements document was generated

tony: this would give W3C advantage

john: how to make media accessible?
... the concern I have is graphic-based caption delivery
... I think we have a solution
... support for Web fonts
... wondering if ok with content producing today

jim: idealy if you provide multple subtitles
... you would be able to display in multiple ways

silvia: overlay, etc.
... Apple did that using WebVTT

john: does anybody have any idea to bring today?

tony: @@@

david: TTML is right thing to do
... if you're using JavaScript, it could be WebVTT, etc.
... number of ways for number of purposes

john: we have <track> element

silvia: just to represent a number of timed text
... I foresee standard JavaScript library duong time aligned metadata/time-aligned data
... for cross multi-platform

bob: separate track for captioning
... in-band tracks

- Q&A

john: 5-8 mins

craig: many devices are not browsers on PC
... devices need to support binary data stream
... is that something WebVTT can support?

silvia: e.g., STB?
... for content delivery, you can select protocol
... always put cues
... any text could be included in cues
... don't really see WebVTT would be used for other content, but maybe other situation is possible

david: what does this "TV" mean?
... multiple functionality of browsers

bob: another aspect
... not just Web content

john: devices are, to my mind, devices, e.g., freg, cars could support Web contents

ralphB: opportunity of devices genericly available

david: you can buy new devices but it cost much

john: economical disadvantage
... VoiceOver screen reader is available on iPhone4
... barrier of access is dropping

tony: would reinforce
... TTS is very good application

glenn how captioning is managed?

scribe: consumers of the content have choices
... consumers of the content have choices

jim: @@@

silvia: you can put JavaScript on your content, and apply to caption as well

john: screen reader has speech synthesis, improves user's experience
... screen reader has speech synthesis, improves user's experience
... would thank the panelist

ralphB: opportunity of devices genericly available

daivd: you can buy new devices but it cost much

john: economical disadvantage
... VoiceOver screen reader is available on iPhone4
... barrier of access is dropping

tony: would reinforce
... TTS is very good application

@@@: how captioning is managed?
... consumers of the content have choices

andrew: @@@

silvia: you can put JavaScript on your content, and apply to caption as well

john: screen reader has speech synthesis, improves user's experience
... would thank the panelist

<Keiji> bye

Workshop Day1 ends

Workshop Day 2 - Tuesday, September 20th


<hiro> Due to technical issue, our WiFi network can provide connection up to 252 devices. So please refrain from connecting several devices to WiFi network.

Karen: room temperature is being increased
... we only have 250 IP addresses for Globe Guest
... you can also use Globe Guest 2
... we have charts for BOF tables for lunch

  Session 5 / Content Format and Codecs: DASH and Codec standards

Moderator: Clarke Stevens (CableLabs)

Scribe: Philippe Le Hégaret (W3C)


  1. W3C Web & TV Third Workshop Microsoft Position Paper — Kilroy Hughes (Microsoft) [paper, slides]
  2. Scalable Video Coding based DASH for efficient usage of network resources — Yago Sánchez (Fraunhofer HHI) [paper, slides]
  3. MPEG's Dynamic Adaptive Streaming over HTTP - An Enabling Standard for Internet TV — Thomas Stockhammer (Qualcomm) [paper, slides]

[panel participants join the podium]

Clarke: [introduces the panel]
... Yago Sanchez
... Bryan Sullivan, AT&T
... Nilo Mitra (OpenIPTV forum)
... Thomas Stockhammer, Qualcomm
... Thierry Fautier, Harmonic
... David Singer, Apple
... Kilroy Hughes, Microsoft
... we've got 3 presentations today

[waiting for the slides]

W3C and Internet TV Standardization, Microsoft

Kilroy: internet standards important for WebTV. MPEG DASH, MPEG Common Encryption, DECE UltraViolet, and some auth, like Oauth 2
... enable critical mass of high value
... needs interop and reach
... DVD was successful for example
... an other example is broadcast television
... support for multiple formats like DASH, Common Encryption/ multi-DRM
... [Media Stack slide]
... multi DRM associated with a television file
... containers, MPEG 2, MPEG 4, Matroska, ...
... they all have to work together
... [Recommendations]
... extensible APIs in HTML5
... audio/video/subtitles encodings
... different containers, DRM systems
... content identifier and metadata
... presentation manifest
... one example being DASH
... internet connected devices use installed apps
... we're all looking for a single playback player with interactivity: HTML5, ...
... it's important that the webtv group looks like as a layered process
... if it isn't done in a short time, it will cease to be as relevant
... alternate solutions will be developed otherwise
... do whatever it gets to do the job fast
... looks at existing wgs to add core feature to enable protected streaming


Scalable Video Coding based DASH for efficient usage of network resources, Fraunhofer

Yago: [Outline]
... [Motivation]
... lots of interest in http streaming
... [Dynamic Adaptive Streaming over HTTP]
... standardized in MPEG
... client in responsible for selecting adaptation set, for each set, there are multiple representations
... [Dynamic Adaptive Streaming over HTTP, Part 2]
... [Problem Description]
... different media components, thus leading to traffic diversification
... reducing cache hit
... solution is SVC
... [Scalable Video Coding]
... SVC encoder will produce different layers

// [Introduction to DASH using SVC - Part 1]

scribe: [Introduction to DASH using SVC - Part 1]

<Iraj> :)

Yago: [Introduction to DASH using SVC - Part 2]
... [Usage of network resources - Part 1]
... [Usage of network resources - Part 2 (AVC based DASH)]
... [Usage of network resources - Part 4]
... expected cache-hit-ratio is higher for SVC than AVC
... [Simulation Set up]
... [Results]
... [Why is this relevant to W3C?]


MPEG's Dynamic Adaptive Streaming over HTTP - An Enabling Standard for Internet TV, Qualcomm

Thomas: [User Frustration in Web-based Video]
... video not accessible, fragmentations, low quality of experience, use a lot of bandwith
... people spend money on data plans or on chocolate, and we want them not to be frustrated with technologies :)
... thus, we need to raise confidence
... that's what DASH tries to address
... [DASH in a Nutshell]
... basic idea is to use the existing infrastructure
... [MPEG DASH ISO/IEC 23009-1]
... will be approved by the end of the year
... Convergence will give the confidence
... [MPEG DASH specification insights]
... DASH defines the manifest and the format of the media segments
... intended for http 1.1 but not limited to
... we defined a format targeted to the access client
... [Media Presentation Data Model]
... gives you all the resources to access the segments
... media presentation -> adaptation set -> representations -> segment info
... [Key feature - Common timeline]
... [boxes and arrows: XML node tree of MPD]
... Multiple Base URLs for accessing segments
... DASH relies on byte range access
... [Descriptors]
... hoping to use to the a11y role scheme in the future
... [Media Segments]
... [Live Presentation]
... [Profiles]
... we defined 6 profiles
... [Summary: DASH Selected Feature List]
... [Common Use Cases]
... [Migration Scenarios]
... [Next steps]
... integrate DASH into end-to-end specifications
... some discussion around licensing and interop
... [More Information]
... included a link to Qualcomm's licensing position


<ph> http://www.qualcomm.com/blog/2011/08/16/dash-toward-better-mobile-video-user-experience

Clarke: giving a chance to panel participants who didn't give a presentation

Thierry: great opportunity
... Harmonic has been an early adopter of adaptive streaming
... we cannot grow without convergence
... "for that stream, you buy this TV set" won't work
... this is the time to get together
... pleased to see Apple and Microsoft working together

<ph> QC licensing commitment: http://www.qualcomm.com/documents/qualcomm-dash-licensing-commitment

Thierry: on royalties, you can argue all your life. more important to have an open system.

Bryan: very interesting spec. we have people anticipating its use in mobile environments
... our http caches have been under stress
... so good step forward
... be interested in hearing about information in more diverse environments

Nilo: openiptv forum and relationshop to DASH. we don't create standards but solutions
... end-to-end solutions
... we create one of the spec for managed and unmanaged networks, around 2008
... recognition that adaptive streaming was missing
... we looked for solutions
... we found the 3gpp solution
... and reluctantly look into mpeg 2 TS
... we finished our solution around the middle of 2010
... when the DASH committee was created. so was used as input
... almost all of our requirements were met
... we do intend to change the references to MPEG DASH when it's ratified
... but there are reasons why we should maintain the original spec
... since it was referenced by 2 industry orgs
... it's also used out there
... so we'll be supporting both for the foreseeable future

David: MPEG, DASH, W3C, ...
... with the web, everybody can publish
... including multimedia
... thus we need standards
... DASH is rather important. before we had a custom protocol
... chucky streaming over http was made better than multi casting
... taking advantages of http caching
... my challenge: I see on various committee: presentation question in HTML, protocol in MPEG, and codecs
... I'd like to keep the layers clean

Clarke: DASH differs from being yet another standard but trying to stay out of the way from some of them. but kilroy mentioned that time for success is rather short
... what are the traps we should avoid?

Thierry: HbbTV 1.5 is going to released. UK, France, Italy have decided to go with DRM approach
... they are hoping to have commercial services next year
... this is a reality. not html5, but strong message not to accept segmentation of the market

Kilroy: appropriate layering would allow playing content in all systems. but if we don't integrate html early, it wil be designed around.

Sree, Comcast: layering of APIsis the right thing. we don't know what we need yet. so more we can enable the layering, the more we'll increase the longevity of devices

scribe: Comcast is supportive of MPEG DASH
... but codifying it into browser runtime is an horrible idea
... it's an overly inclusive spec
... not specify the client behavior will lead to inconsistency
... the challenge is that we should take MPEG DASH and build APIs on top

Kilroy: re interop, you can profile the media profile and the DASH profile
... but DASH is just a description of the media
... those have to be well defined. if there is consistency there, parsing, decoding, description will be reliably handled.

Thierry: on interop. we're building encoders. nobody has stepped up to be the true interoperability program. with DASH, we expect better results with version 2.
... very strict guidelines
... we agree that there is a lot of work to be done
... meeting on Friday in San Francisco

Bryan: on the short window of interop. it's in the hands of testers with real devices.
... at the end, we need implementations we can test.
... performance characteristic in real live mobile env
... before we can deploy this

David: pb with standards is that there isn't a primary vendor, so it can take a while to take off
... no ref implementation
... there is a risk with standards like DASH since no reference implementation
... you have to take some risks
... and get something out there
... don't wait for everybody else, this is not goiing to work

Thomas: by building close to what is already available, we can move quickly from what is already available
... the DASH spec is an enabling format, so more work needs to be done
... implementations need to happen
... interop events, plug feast, ...

Silvia Pfeiffer: elephant in the room. W3C has a RF polilcy

scribe: licensing around DASH isn't clear
... is that resolved?
... will the patents situation be clarified?

Kilroy: creating a WG wouldn't change the situation
... the main participants can make statements for themselves

Silvia: but in MPEG, participants aren't forced to commit

Kilroy: statements have been around DASH and royalty-free

David: MPEG just published the final spec, this is the point where participants should be putting their patent statements
... it doesn't protect us 100% but you never get that
... the only statements I have seen so far have been free ones
... doubts and inclarity will help nobody

Thierry: H.264 ... used in DASH
... you also need to consider it as well
... how does WebM fit with DASH?

Silvia: this can be resolved
... we could create a profile of DASH for MPEG or WebM
... I would separate the issue of H.264 from DASH
... I would encourage a WG around DASH and HTML5 at W3C
... creating a profile that work
... getting the participants that have patents

Clarke: the media pipeline tf is considering this. we're planning to talk about this on Thursday

Kilroy: concern is about timing
... will be another delay

Thomas: Qualcomm has made a statement and we're not W3C Member
... a lot of thing can be worked out outside working groups
... so this is not the only way that it can get resolved
... we have explained our position
... no extra licensing for DASH
... there is an ecosystem

Silvia: would you be prepared to join W3C?

Thomas: this is not my decision

?: there is a token passed in the URL that are specific to the user. how do you handle that?

Kilroy: that's not the case for DASH. would be implementation specific

David: there are some techniques to track users
... don't track them using uri parameters, because you're destroying caches

Bryan: indeed, it doesn't work with caches

?: what about multiple hardware decoders, like picture-in-picture

Thomas: this is outside the scope of DASH

David: could be a question for a w3c working group
... how much multimedia can you decode simultaneously?

Kilroy: there is provision in DASH to handle multi streams
... pretty well described in the spec
... mutl angle, multi view, 3d
... for picture-in-picture, there is a group concept, decoded in //
... the vocaublary is there in DASH
... but would need additional role description
... so that the television could recognize the intent

Jeff: re H.264. at W3C, we think there should a royalty-free profile of H.264
... I put together a presentation for MPEG LA patent holders
... shared ith with MPEG LA
... under discussion
... no conclusion yet
... when MPEG DASH is standardized, would be great to make it RF
... but MPEG works under RAND terms
... we encourage MPEG participants to make RF statements
... and discuss this in the MPEG group

Thierry: RF H.264 will probaby come one day. quality will be baseline.
... DASH is going forward
... having H.265 will be even better
... will bring video to everybody, including emerging countries

Jeff: I agree that H265 is superior, and would be delighted to have RF. but we believe in walking before we can run, so H264 would be a good start

David: a rf format is not the mandatory format, but something that will work across all devices/platforms.
... so you can give a good format, but we need a fallback
... the mandatory format doesn't have to be the perfect format for all business use

Mark Watson, Netflix: DASH is not a new technology.

scribe: we've been tracking it for a while
... so the technology has been deployed already on large scale
... interop is still missing
... if we have IPR around DASH, those will be RF

Clarke: thank you all


Topics: Annoucements

Karen: we're going to do a photo after lunch
... and you're welcome to be on it!
... we'll leave 10 before 1pm to do the picture on the globe steps

  Session 6 / Content Protection and DRM

Moderator: Mark Watson (Netflix)

Scribe: Russell Berkoff (Samsung)

Short Presentation:

  1. HTML5: Now with Premium Content - Bent G Christensen (Cisco) [paper]
  2. Commercial Video Provider HTML5 DRM Requirements — Bob Lund (CableLabs) [paper, slides]


  • Bent G Christensen (Cisco)
  • Kilroy Hughes (Microsoft)
  • Bob Lund (CableLabs)
  • Bill Mandel (Universal Pictures)
  • Chris Wilson (Google)

Great if we can make use of streaming players / Content Protection

Intros- Bob Lund Cablelabs

Bent Christensen Cisco

Chris Wilson Google

Kilroy Hughs Microsoft

Bill Mandel Univ Pictures

Bob Lund addressing

Take adv of earlier dist windows

higher quality content availability

<scribe> new distribtion models - UltraViolet

Need to support multiple protection schemes

May have some convergence - but not soon

<yosuke> [Service Provider Content Protection Goals slide]

W3C/HTML5 should support multiple schemes

Want to support multiple devices

HW devices may be open plug-into busses, etc

Retail devices may be tightly controlled - integrated

Licencing models may not be consistent w/content proteciton

Various lifecycles for existing protection schemes

need ways to update devices in field

various ways to do this (updating)

need to support full range of devices

HTML5 currently supports protected content - plugins

<yosuke> [HTML5 does support protected content slide]

very flexible - but not integrated w/HTML5 media

additional features - timed text tracks etc (HTML5)

Can use web page to play protected content

can also define mimetype and pass prot info to UA

Used in DLNA currently

UA and content prot method specific

up to prot scheme to pass info to UA

Cant get licence info for example

<yosuke> [What else could be done? slide]

Create a way to play AV content

Virtualized content prot scheme

Create way that info can go between page and UA

Server should be able to authenticate client

Server should be able to determine level of trust (down-rate content)

Maybe UA string sufficient

<yosuke> [What Next? slide]

WebTV MPTF group discussing UC and requirements

Will create Wiki page - create samples

TF will generate content prot requirements

Closing - Bob mentioned window of opp closing (Prev panel)

<yosuke> [Where Cisco is coming from slide]

Cisco doing end-2-end ip systems

Lot of interest on HTML5

Want to support it - but what does that mean

<yosuke> [Why DRMs slide]

For clients - number of pieces need to come together

Presentation engine - Java QT Linux apps, Web Browsers

How to protect premium content - CA schemes

If we dont support DRM we wont get the content - must address issue

<yosuke> [HTML5 + DRM = :( ? slide]

Is HTML5 the right place to handle DRMs?

Need to do this to do WebTV - Use simple apis to get drm info from platform

Avoid black-screen scenarios

<yosuke> [Which DRM? slide]

Which drms should we support

DRMs offer various levels of function

HTML5 should not decide this

UltraViolet can be used to test DRM frameworks

(UV supports multiple DRM schemes)

Android proposed DRM framework - looks promising

Lets discuss approaches for DRM+HTML5

End presentation

Opening floor for questions

HTML5 RF - Content protection is not

What does the panel think the way to move forward

What APIs are need for browser to discover protection mechanisms

Identify DRMs schemes on platform - Proprietary components kept private

Bob - Some ship with licenced codecs - Resource selection in HTML5

Wide range of mechanisms HTML5 deals with using Codec identification

2nd stmts from Kilroy/Bob - System public open but protection details kept private

How do I get my content go to any device - most ubiquitous system possible

Should encourage as few content prot systems as possible

Content publishers need to indicate how many schemes they can support

2-3 ok - 12 too many - Would need to support too many licences and right expression languages

Ecosystem will determine correct # of schemes

Any aware of common encryption scheme for MP4 container?

Encryption was selected in a way the encrypted streams could be moved between containers w/o decryption

Necessary for MPEG-DASH

Needed for efficient CDN caching

No questions from audience

Intersection of Adaptive Streaming and Protection difficult for HTML5

Cannot copy any video to Canvas

cannot copy video due to cross-scripting restrictions

Matter of fundamental trust - Devices being built to defeat DRM

Conflict between reaching everything and protecting content

Should not lose sight of consumers who are paying for content

As a consumer dont have good systems currently deployed - Prefer DVD so content can be ripped

Other side is streaming content (TV) which not easy to decode - Cant move between devices (mobile)

Change all HDMI equipment in SF presentation

Content protection caused HDMI to block content - Bad experience

Should minimize this type of scenario

If you pay for content you should have access

This includes adverts which are part of paying for content

Should not be able to defeat this

Idea around compositing around protected content important

Concerns Google TV would replace adverts

Is there a fundamental impasse with folks that would not accept any DRM in HTML5?

Do we want browsers to have access to content people want to watch?

Can avoid DRM issues in HTML5 (dont play content ;-(

Want to do better then that - add APIs to greatly improve user-experience

Can be DRM agnostic

Apple - What tools do we need?

For ex: Use CORS to enforce font restrictions

Use link protection schemes rather than DRM

Need trust chain to authorize intended user - Nice to have general solution

Hesitate to create multiple solutions

Can we take a different path? - Need to convince content providers not to use DRM - unlikely

HTML5 video tag successful - currently being used

Transition between web content and high-quality content

Clarify goal is to deliver TV content


Assume that consumer is willing to pay for DRM content - HTML should provide framework for DRM

Do encryption key handling separately - Already done in OIPF - but need guidance from W3C

Maybe discuss at TPAC meeting next month


May be able to deliver decryption key over secure session (Apple HLS)

Depends on trust level of components (less than full DRM scope - right expression languages)

Better than providing key over clear session

Determine level of trust of components deliver key in protected wrapper

DECE - Making DRM systems transparent - Cloud based license management

Noble effort

Lunch Break

  Session 7 / Web & TV: Additional Device & User Requirements

Moderator: Yosuke Funahashi (Tomo-Digi)

Scribe: Alan Bird (W3C)

Presentation with Q&A:

  1. Connected TV User Experience — Russell Berkoff (Samsung) [paper]
  2. XMPP and profiling — Bent G Christensen (Cisco) [paper]
  3. Parental Guidance handling — Christian Fuhrhop (Fraunhofer FOKUS) [paper, slides]
  4. Multiple Screen Scenario – Additional Use Case and Key Issues — Shunichi Gondo (Toshiba) [paper]
  5. A declarative approach to Broadcast TV — Jean-Charles Verdié (MStar) [paper, slides]

Karen: Welcome back, request to audience to only have one device on wifi

Kaz: We took a very nice picture
... Session 7 is Web & TV Devices and User requirements

Yosuke: I'll be your host for this last session
... We've discussed a wide variety of topics relative to W3C
... I hope we can have an interesting and thought provoking
... at this session we have 5 companies building devices for Web & TV
... we will have Q&A after each Presenter

Connected TV User Experience — Russell Berkoff (Samsung)

Russell: This presentation is focused on the connected TV user experience.

A traditional TV device doesn't have a browser. This is true.

scribe: First question for a new device is what does a device connect to in a cloud?

[Connected TV User Experience slide 1]

[Connected TV User Experience slide 2]

We see at least a minimum set of functionality to provide Channel Preview, Subscriptions and Link to Content Service provider to get additional information.

Connected TVs have not eliminated the "human-need" to channel surf. They want to use their remote to flip channels until they see what they like.

scribe: Think this discussion about remote device is interesting
... but we have a low-end requirement to allow surfing
... We need to rapidly connect to channels across content boundries
... Need to show interactive previews (multi channel mosaics)
... If they multi task at work why not while watching TV?
... Will need to maintain channel lists - won't want to step through 500 channels
... will need to remember favorites

[changes to different version of presentation]

Need for connected TV to provide an electronic Programming Guide. There is a need to have a guide across content source providers

scribe: We may want to have alternate presentations for electronic programming guides vs. traditional grid guide

We should allow users to create virtual channels based on content preferences

scribe: so instead of having a channel by source provider could have auto playlist constructs that simulate a streaming experience

In conclusion - connected device ecosystem needs to support seamless transistions

scribe: channel surfing paradigm is far from dead and is expected to survive

Thank you


Yosuke: Questions or comments?

Next presenter is Bent G Christensen (Cisco)

XMPP and profiling — Bent G Christensen (Cisco)

Bent: don't know what to call this besides bits and pieces from the lab

[XMPP - just a neat little protocol]

[XMPP - just a neat little protocol (slide 2)]

[Profiling - a W3C HTML5 TV Profile?]

Bent: With that I'm done - questions?

Kilroy: There is something like 400 profiles now, depends on number of profiles

Bent: Maybe we agree on some smaller number. Defining another profile doesn't solve the problem.

Kilroy: It doesn't solve the problem for the set the publishers make.

Bent: I think once there are more HTML5 CE devices out there we should see more focus.


Parental Guidance handling — Christian Fuhrhop (Fraunhofer FOKUS)

Christian: Starts with Pre-Summary slide

[Pre-Summary slide]

[History slide]

[other countries adopted similar systems]

[very busy graphic from Wikipedia]

{additional rating schemes]

[Problem scope]

scribe: All rating systems are separate by country. How it's rated in another country isn't relative.

['Classic' set-top box scenario]

[Common solutions - set of rating lists]

Problem is it's not in the browser

[OIPF provides one way to handle this]

[So far so good, but...]

Interesting ability to control by strobing

[What would be useful...]

[What would be useful... slide 2]

[redo of colorful slide]

Christian: Thank you


Kilroy: 2 comments - DASH has a way to signal this in the content
... 2nd comment that trying to synchronize rating systems is difficult. Tried this in the past but have been told that won't work. Cultural differences.
... One other thing that has been useful is to have a specifically unrated category for adult content. That could be a universal bit in all systems.

Christian: That's not something I'm worried about at all. The problem is matching the signal in the content to something on the device.
... Being able to retrieve information from content and use it in the browser.
... If you are tryhing to be nice you might not make certain content if it has certain settings.
... It would be nice to have a device API and then you can deal with a universal rating.
... Right now it's information you have in the TV that you don't have in the browser.

Kilroy: Problem with the ratings is it varies by country. There is the possibilty to have in international system raised that will be used going forward.

Christian: If you have a feature you would allow possiblity to use the stuff but right now we don't have that feature.

David Mays: I believe the strobing issue gets more into the accessibility area vs the content rating area and wonder if any of the accessibility people have a view of that.

John: Accessibility needs to be a part of what is done, not something on the side.

Christian: It's interesting that OIPF has specific for strobing. Find it interesting the warnings that the Terminator ride has (gives examples).

David Mays: You mentioned adapting the content based on the rating. There might be something interesting to intersect there with DASH.

Christian: If you have the information available you might be able to do something about it if you can resolve the rating system differences.

John: You're talking about the discoverabilty of the information. Once it's been discovered it can be used in multiple ways.


Multiple Screen Scenario – Additional Use Case and Key Issues — Shunichi Gondo (Toshiba

[Web & Toshiba's TV Products]

[Use Case of the Multiple Screen Scenario]

SG: You're watching on a PC and want to move video to big screen
... How to implement this Web based technology

["One Web"]

[back to use case slide]

SG: we define some TV specific API. Usage breaks "One Web"

[To keep "One Web"]

[Example: Specific API]

SG: If browser does not have TV function in browser we can use JS Lib to provide that

[Example: Generic API]

(adds architectural elements to slide)

[Summary and Proposal]

SG: : Define API for TV specific feature
... Reuqirmeents keep "One Web" for Web & TV Architecture
... Thank you

Yosuke: Questions or comments?

Kiyoko Tsutsumi from MIC Japan: When giant earthquake and tsunami broadcasting played central role in distributing info

scribe: I drove conversation with W3C on how to make it all work

Yosuke: While this is Entertaining Content the Web & TV took a very essential role in distributing information


A declarative approach to Broadcast TV — Jean-Charles Verdié (MStar)


JCV: We're a semiconductor company that loves web technologies

[What we did with HTML Front end]

[blank title slide]

JCV: Tuner is not dead around the world
... Most of web-based specs for broadcast, not all assume browser

[We'll talk about]

[Our proposal]

[What it could look like]

[Name spaces declaration]

[An hard-coded example of channels*]

(sample code on presenting information)

[How to play]

[Example of a LCN/Virtual Channel]

[WebTV Object]

[Video Object]

(charts of attributes and descriptions)



JanL: I enjoyed your presentation, I've worked with these APIs before
... Is this something you want in standard or is this your own implementation?

JCV: It's our implementation today but we'd like to see it incorporated into the standard

JanL: We haven't seen this as a use case, it would be an extension
... This is something that could be brought to the Task Force to discuss - thanks!


Yosuke: We were a little bit hurried to finish on time but open the floor to any questions

MAV: Comment from the Japanese Govt had me thinking. Don't know if it's going on anywhere else in W3C but Emergency Alerts are important.
... I just got one in the last month about a flood. It's a very flawed approach because it's broadcast.
... I think this is something we should look at. If not in Web & TV then someplace.
... I think we'd be better off getting ahead of that.

Kaz: Regarding last comments. Yosuke, I think you are planning to create a TF to address this.

Yosuke: Yes, in the case of the disaster we had different parts of the infrastructure working in different places.
... Web & TV is very important for saving people's lifes.

Kaz: Perhaps we can talk about this more at F2F meeting in next 2 days.

Yosuke: That concludes this session, thank you very much.


Karen: A little longer break, we'll start session 8 at 1500

  Session 8 / Next Steps & Wrap up

Moderator: Philippe Le Hégaret (W3C)

Scribe: Karen Myers (W3C), Jeff Jaffe (W3C)

  1. Presentation on HTML.next - Philippe Le Hégaret (W3C) [slides]
  2. Workshop issue review - Panel


    • Kilroy Hughes (Microsoft)
    • Vivek Nandalike (Access)
    • Giuseppe Pascale (Opera)
    • David Singer (Apple)
    • Chris Wilson (Google)
  3. Wrap up & Next Steps - Philipp Hoschka (W3C) [slides]

Philippe introduces panel:

* Kilroy Hughes (Microsoft)

* Vivek Nandalike (Access)

* Giuseppe Pascale (Opera)

* David Singer (Apple)

* Chris Wilson (Google)

PLH: We heard about working groups
... members can make submissions to W3C
... we have recommendation track work
... going from technology or use cases to a recommendation
... several steps
... start with a set of working drafts
... then we publish last call
... for example HTML5 is in last call
... we receive issues
... once we resolve them
... understanding we may need to publish more than one last call
... then we publish a recommendation
... does it work, do tests
... For HTML5 we have had testing for a while
... still encouraging community to submit tests
... once we do tests, we publish proposed recommendation
... We have many Working Groups at W3C
... So TV industry is asking which groups they should go to
... So I'd like to explain these
... HTML5 is currently in last call
... next year will move to candidate recommendation
... we started test phase
... more than 1,000 for Canvas
... If we do well, we can finish earlier
... Need to be aware that in August the WG chair sent mail about HTML.next
... how do we recharter the WG to address what's next
... participants to propose new ideas for features
... and specification contributions
... so far we have not received a lot
... then we decide what type of charter we need
... open or precie
... On the HTML specification itself
... we requested comments by August 3rd
... thanks, CableLabs
... we will answer all those bugs by 31 December
... if editor does not make change
... you may want to escalate within the WG
... maybe triage with the editor
... expectation is to resolve all the issues by April 2012
... then decide next steps
... may move to candidate recommendation
... still send information to us
... if it's really a bug we will fix it
... you have to provide a rationale as to why
... if you have use case or rationale, getting your change in will be easier
... some of relevant bugs to TV industry
... had some discussions for them

[slide 11]

scribe: none of these issues has been closed yet
... So what is next?
... We started discussions about HTML.next in the working group
... One thing I did not hear in this workshop
... once client is ready to decode
... how good is it
... proposal to access info on how many frames to decode and display to user
... One of browser has a propsal for that
... is it enough, do we need to do more?
... You should tell us
... I heard that just having a media type is not enough
... Tell us what you need exactly for HTML.next
... another feature I did not hear
... I want to play video when I'm in a plane later
... no support for that right now
... not a user-friendly way to play video content offline later on
... We talked about video tracks
... you need to tell us what we are missing; what use cases
... you have to tell HTML Working Group
... Captioning we had some discussion
... Problem is different formats
... We are that close [makes inch sign with hands] to resolving it
... CSS Working Group
... We have not talked much about this WG here
... We are working on new proposed charter
... to set the plan for the next two years
... for will or won't be worked on
... Notice that Fullscreen is here
... plan is to publish on that in next two years
... Fullscreen is to take elements on page and make them fullscree
... take an entire area and make an overlay
... problem is CSS charter says "may be worked on if time"
... but if you want to push specification along, you should say so
... what needs to be done is write a spec and test
... someone needs to do the work
... no one in CSS is doing that
... group that works on 50 specifications so they have to prioritize
... that is why Fullscreen is not a top priority
... nice to say, but who is doing the work
... Home Network API
... Web and TV IG has been working on use cases and requirements
... where to bring that
... Device API is inscope
... but may need a new WG for those APIs
... Real-Time Communication WG
... media stream APIs to receive feeds
... don't say from where -- network or other
... camera
... make video display; is it enough, do we need more APIs on top of it
... DASH as well
... Assumption from HTML5 spec is there is a web address here
... but we are not going to have fine control over those capabilities
... use what you have implemented in the client
... Some of you may want full control on the client
... going to need an API for that
... Web Application Packaging
... There is a workshop coming up on 5 November
... in Redwood City
... Working on widgets;release recommendation in November
... how to extend mechanism for more use cases
... Web Application Security WG
... mentioned vaguely during this workshop
... one of deliverables in content delivery policy
... may be interesting to this group
... Tracking Protection WG is a new group as of a week ago
... conditions for tracking me as a client
... Like a way to uniquely identify a client
... know if they can trust client to deliver premium content or not
... but fall into tracking regulation
... If you want to talk about such a mechanism, you may want to talk to WG; may not please FCC [US Federal Trade Commission]
... Other items include Parental Control
... TV Channels API
... where to be done is up for discussion
... Emergency requiremetns
... requests from TV and others
... emergency response
... may be other things as well
... I would like to turn to panelists and review each session
... First session was content provider and consumer perspective
... One thing that came up was subtitles
... Avatar example of designing own sub-titles
... another item was rating and overlay
... any reaction from this panel?

David Singer, Apple: what I heard, we want to see how far we can get in HTML and CSS

scribe: if we can use text we get a whole lot of advantages
... I'm very tempted by that as a direction
... We have Web fonts coming along
... I want to see people do the very best we can with the technologies we already have

Kilroy: I have a different perspective
... worldwide graphics is important
... support arrive of graphic subtitles in video streams
... I agree that text has a range of functionality
... best case being a combination
... search on text; text to voice conversion; support braille readers
... advantages to both
... design format to accommodate both
... I would also invite people to come to the microphone

John Foliot, IE/HTML5 Accessibility: I see graphics has an appeal

scribe: so behind every picture you need your thousand words
... seeing this with Canvas
... If we can support Web Fonts
... putting efforts there far better than duplication of effort

Kilroy: my point is it's more effort in duplication
... converting to different technologies than to send them down the pike

John: Two ways of looking at it; cost associated with it
... looking forward more productive than looking backward
... minimize costs moving fowward

Kilroy: aesthetic considerations are valid
... voice substitution for favorite actor or actress
... in way written
... the line ordering and so on is not a Guttenberg, Latin process to line up equally spaced blocks of wood
... We take a Western perspective
... many people here are English speakers
... caution not to get too myopic about our writing system

David: As Silvia demonstrated you can do it today
... TIF and PNG support channels
... what is overlay at any one time on graphics
... H.264 can support
... can overlay primary video

Kilroy: yes, useful to animate

PLH: What about Home Networking
... we saw many demos about controlling screen from phone
... how far are we from getting APIs implementing

Giuseppe: we went through use cases presented
... we don't think we need...agree with model to work with what we have and not invent new stuff
... when we look at new requirements we have a proposal to bring to DAP WG
... question is what other actors think about this
... if it can be done in another way that browser can take care of

PLH: Chris, on your work on Google TV, is that on your radar?

Chris: I have not read proposal thoroughly so cannot comment
... concept of multiple devices linked is a powerful one
... we have things for Safari and Android
... as an adjunct device to whatever is going on main screen

PLH: and your market?

Vivek: Access has interest to see where this discussion is heading
... we want to see if this tech is native to browser or be handled as separate technology like DLNA

PLH: Currently within scope of DAP
... are you going to contribute to DAP or do a new WG

Guiseppe: provide proposal to Device API group
... we are eager to get feedback on what we submitted
... and decide if that is right place

PLH: You said it was posted?
... do you know when?

Giuseppe: recently
... and we got feedback from Webinos project
... getting feedback from them
... seems at least use cases are of interest to several companies
... HTML not only in browser, but also presentation technology
... use cases that other presentation technologies do

PLH: is your proposal to implement on top of DLNA?

Giuseppe: we are not suggesting one discovery protocol
... we may probably split the protocol for discover and what browser app can do
... a generic way; some services
... app as service and provide way to communciate...messaging protocol
... everything there and can be used
... need discovery part to be taken care of by user agent

Kilroy: just showed up on radar in Redmond
... I didn't get into whether to spin up new WGs
... happy to proceed with proposal as it was

Giuseppe: details can be discussed

David: I'm fully in favor of things working with each other
... operating systems do well connecting mice to computers
... local peripheral
... security issues here
... I could fingerprint you and know it's your house
... web pages wondering around my house to see what I have is disturbing
... but connected world is way we are going

PLH: Thank you
... next session about metadata, synchronization and closed captioning
... David do you want to make a statement
... TTML worked on at W3C and with SMPTE
... WebVTT also in developement

<silvia> vtt = video text track

David: hope to propose a Community Group
... good news to nonW3C members, but not good in that there is no staff support
... look for more information
... will work on VTT and mapping formats
... want to know how the work chain works together
... distribution house, user agent end, make whole process work well
... look forward to get documents out to describe and how to author for them
... So look for a community group

PLH: WebVTT or not interested?

[panelists look at each other]

PLH: next session is DASH
... we talked a lot about this
... maybe some issues around DASH
... on API part, when do we need to expose functioning to the client
... some people want to expose
... are you supporting streaming capabilities
... Safari is supporting some
... guessing Apple will
... have you guys been thinking about?

David: We are shipping...
... delivery of multimedia is fundamental to all who care about multimedia for masses
... expect we'll be working on them; Steve will tell me

Chris: We are interested in streaming and enabling streaming
... we are looking at DASH
... a lot of promise to settle on single adaptive format
... being somewhat agnostic will be important
... DASH is broad
... but more topics to be deeply discussed

Mark Watson, Netflix: two topics on mailing lists

scribe: let browsers support
... other approach is to feed media data to Javascript
... experimental patch in Webkit that does that
... can do fetching of metadata and parsing
... and feed to video type that way
... that is experimental
... tradeoffs to two approaches
... understand constraints of devices and set top boxes
... downloadable code
... I think we'll see both approaches going forward

PLH: any reaction from panel?

Chris: true, it's an interesting way to experiment
... David was talking about a Bluetooth discovery API
... seems odd for a pointing device
... if hard core and thinking beyond OS beyond Web
... one of my favorite scenarios is scuba diving gear
... my log software I use to download data off dive computer is Windows only
... to this day I have to use an operating specific service
... working with friend to write software
... still have to plug in
... not just a storage device
... every dive computer is different
... How much do you push into OS as a base service
... vs expose gory details in Javascript
... recognize different scenarios in devices
... may not want a high bar

Kilroy: Mark characterized it as two architectures
... I think there is third one
... where object of source tag is a manifest log
... if a handler for that it decodes it
... one where built into platform
... web app running on browser works if decoder is in the platform
... other is if decoder built into browser
... but won't work if page ends up on wrong browser
... third one is execute in Javascript
... as long as APIs are all supported can be on any OS

Giuseppe: also looking at what Chrome team is doing
... some sort of adaptive streaming
... work going on; at start of this process
... for PC user just download new version, but not case for other devices
... option to just use source elemetn to point to manifest
... approach not completely clear; space for improvement

David: In DASH work...
... trying to embed as if a foreign thing...build a web experience
... people who deliver content to home over Internet will be expected to deliver the experience
... page and interactivity

[provides complex example]

scribe: ability to tailor the platform
... to see multimedia as part of it; embedded not foreign to it

Mark Vickers, Comcast: adaptive streaming available via plug-ins

scribe: we use critically and cannot live without
... some work going on...browsers experimental
... some things we use every day and need
... We want to make sure that the new video element can do everything we do for video
... we do extensively
... worth studying all those features
... we want to transfer to video element, but we really need all those featuers

Chris: Plug-in systems are ideal; figure out what is nec
... biggest challenge is undercurrent
... which parts to bake into video element
... not do everything FLASH can do
... you want to figure out the parts we use for building interactive video
... or use DRM
... and how to code in system that more than one vendor provides an implementation for

MarkV: both FLASH and Silverlight have video support

MarkV: video support is pretty well exercized

Giuseppe: have same functionality covered
... use cases in new ways

Giuseppe: HTML5

Jeff Jaffe: interesting conversation about features of proprietary systems to put into the new standards

scribe: is the IG assembling the requirements need?
... do we need a new task force to do this?

Mark: I believe that is in the Media Pipeline task force
... those requirements are starting to be written down

Jeff: So request is that we really need everyone's input in that task force

PLH: Anything else on streaming side
... Content Protection
... we heard a lot this morning
... One of things interested by
... People want not just a mechanism
... but to know what mechanism is supported
... maybe extend play type
... your reaction

David: revision to buckets protocol for mime types
... express what profiles the underlying manifest format whatever
... this stream conforms to
... way to ...up to DASH
... special profile we need
... cannot decode if you do not understand it
... one avenue of talking from below to above
... whether we need more parameters
... that revision happened in last few weeks

Kilroy: DASH spec indicative of level of support needed
... that content is encrypted
... or if you support DRMs with licenses available
... and where to go to get those license
... supported in DASH
... switching to different streams
... hard to imagine being conveyed in a mime type but may give you a fair warning
... and reaction on content protection
... do you all support?
... essential to support and get content to users

Giuseppe: not if we support
... cannot decide for user

David: usual workflow is they encounter
... some place to buy it
... have nec keys and taken to web page to see that destination web page to play content
... you can embed it
... take piece over years and ask if I want to buy it
... not sure how popular
... on web, maybe get that message that this content is protected and would you like to pay and view it?

Chris: interesting pathways in that statement
... biggest challenge
... really is to make this as seamless a transaction as possible
... around broadly deployed systems
... minimize number
... some work great, but update computer
... and it stops working completely
... that is challenge we need to get past as an industry
... or have problem that I bought content five years ago
... and it won't work
... need to remember it
... what I'm buying and what those rights actually mean

<Alan> s /upload computer/update computer/

Mark Watson: agree should be kept as transparent to user as posible

scribe: question of whether question can be dealt with in media player without Javascript layer
... a number of content protection schemes
... and provide files
... and schemes that each device might support
... usually device manufacturer does those
... one or more protection schemes at the intersection
... if more than one, I may have a choice

scribe: given that problem
... in particular what we suggested at last workshop
... avoid need for content providers
... multiple services

Chris: cannot dictate schemes to device manufacturers
... settle on small number of content protection schemes
... and put on devices that supports some big chunk of content protection
... what is missing today
... to be clear
... this will not be transparent to user
... stick file into anything and it will play
... maybe user based authentication
... or stick into friends computer and it works
... get to something where I can can system that works well today in closed environment
... pick on David
... I have an iPhone, iPad and iMac; I can play content within this system
... as long as I have fewer than five
... because they are registered
... but think about how to expand beyond that for other content producers and content devices

Kilroy: my queue
... Digital content ecosystem looking at rights ecosystem
... Blueray disk
... available to all systems and say stream me my movie

<jeff> scribenick: jeff

JanL: Can't we unify how do we discover DRM system?

Kilroy: Labeling mechanism exist for client device
... but need APIs

JanL: Yes, and expose it

Kilroy: Check license [agreeing with JanL]

Philippe: Action Item

David: Great work. But multi-vendor DRM is hard.

Giuseppe: Where do we do this?

PLH: Exactly.

GP: Or wait for 1st implementation

PLH: Opera?

GP: Prob. not

PLH: Topic: Additional Device and User reqts.
... TV APIs

Chris: We have an odd set of APIs
... everything before me was wrong
... now we'll get it right
... we want to enhance Live TV experience
... So we do some things, but not others
... Can change channel, but not say what is being watched
... don't have rights to listing info
... copyrighted

Giuseppe: Need to investigate
... OIPF work?
... implementations exist
... we need to talk to others
... scope?

David: Limited count of numbered channels is an anachronism
... what should we let go of?

CW: # channels may be anachronistic - but it is today's reality

GP: Not only web content
... satellite, cable
... need API
... W3C? plug-ins? native? discussion

Matt Hammond, BBC: Existing broadcast is important

scribe: channels, services
... APIs for users and other devices
... multi-screen experience

Kilroy: Personality in device
... data management system through UI

GP: Leads to service discovery

PLH: Parental control?
... Ratings?

David: DASH looked at it
... but it didn't belong there

KH: Existing regs
... can't start from zero
... transition to global design system in future

DS: Privacy issue
... Is there an adult at other end of browser?
... But then you can find out it is a child; privacy violation
... need to work out carefully

PLH: Emergency requirements?

[panelists look at each other]

GP: Important ... needs more analysis
... not for W3C

KH: Cablelabs: Emergency in DASH

[discussion of mechanism]

KH: Also real-time - would be nice to get an IM at emergency to browser
... but doesn't exist today.

DS: Need to talk to govt.
... re-examine assumptions
... people don't have land-line phones or watch TV
... increasingly "under thirties"'s main connectivity is the Internet

CW: Test of emergency broadcast web
... thought a joke - maybe serious

Yosuke Funahashi: IG has infrastructure companies.

<Alan> s /KH: Test/CW: Test/

scribe: so IG can discuss emergency. Maybe task force on emergencies

Mark Vickers: Great, open discussion

scribe: refreshing
... We've heard: write it down and ask for it.
... but it's happened - hasn't always worked out well
... Example 1: DRM dismissed a year ago - "DRM is evil".
... Example 2: Parental control. - Closed. "Watch your kids".
... even though that "company" has DRM and parental control
... Good discussion today; but dismissive in the past.
... What will change?

Chris Wilson, Google: So many things I can say.

scribe: I have two young daughters
... I'm supportive of W3C
... Takes different perspectives
... Checks and balances
... not perfect
... There are challenges
... Google ships "not open source", but Mozilla only ships "open source"
... Makes DRM hard
... Going forward:
... Need to understand critically important problem statements
... Need some solution, but maybe not multi-screen
... Arbitrary example - not a proposal
... Vote with your feet

GP: Point out gaps

John Foliot: Response to Mark

scribe: I'm accessibility guy
... The bugs (DRM and parental) are where they are because I got no support when I raised them

<ChrisWilson> "I have two young daughters" is unrelated to "I'm supportive of the W3C", btw. :)

scribe: Please PARTICIPATE, help me out

PLH: Agree with John

DS: Answers were unacceptability flip
... but we need to work through requirements

Mark Vickers: Hear the comment

scribe: need use cases
... that's why we are here
... but Content Protection and Parental Controls are our world.
... Law of the Land
... Can't be dismissive.
... Hence critical.
... The reception must be less dismissive.

PLH: We will discuss use cases.

JanL: Can we take material from other fora and bring in as reqts?

PLH: Yes
... but normative references have stronger requirements

Kaz: Parental Control and Content Protection: Media Pipeline TF will discuss on Thursday
... Accessibility will also have task force

PLH: 2 remaining questions.
... 1. What advice do you give TV industry to make Web and TV a reality?

DS: Try examples. Make it work. Demos. Play.
... Join W3C (which Jeff would love)

GP: Use technology now. Before 2014.
... pretty stable already

Vivek Nadalike: Be receptive to new ideas

CW: Think through the actual scenario
... experiment

DS: Preserve the good of the past - but there is a new future

PLH: Last question: Priorities
... what are they for W3C?
... where should we be in a year?

KH: Step 1. Get content out there. Make it viewable.

GP: Implementation is priority

PLH: W3C doesn't do implementations.

[adjourn session]


<inserted> scribenick: karen

PLH: Philipp Hoschka to do the wrap-up session

<Alan> Chair: Philipp Hoschka

PH: Some final words
... to wrap up this workshop and say a few words

<Alan> scribe: Karen

PH: take-away messages, where we go from here
... First of all, my personal take-away message is what Sree said at the beginning
... Open Web Platform has potential but we need collaboration
... otherwise we'll see what happened in mobile
... But I think we are on the right track
... good, open discussions, good spirit to be successful
... fantastic panel
... how do we move on from here?
... Two upcoming events
... Over next 2 days are the Web and TV Interest Group meeting at Hilton
... where IG will finzalize the Home Networking TF
... map requirements onto working groups in W3C
... candidate is DAP but may not be sufficient
... Media Pipeline TF will continue working through use cases
... many of things we discussed today
... this TF not as advanced
... And we will talk about creating new task forces
... Social TV apps into TV experience
... Accessibility
... these two task forces are closest to being created
... Other topics: Web and Broadcasting, Metadata, Profiling/Testing, Content Protection; Web and IPTV, Emergency Broadcasting
... Next event is the W3C's Technical Plenary
... November in Santa Clara
... an all-hands meeting of the working groups
... Web and TV IG will meet with other groups to discuss requirements
... much better to talk F2F
... explain to them what you are talking about and why
... other thing is middle of week
... one day is a plenary meeting where everyone comes together
... this year we have a new format
... not a pre-set agenda
... a bit of a bar camp format
... a great opportunity for TV community to suggest new things to integrate web and television
... if you have topics there is a wiki
... or contact our CEO [Jeff Jaffe]
... another great opportunity to continue the discussion
... Last and not least, our host, sponsor Comcast and overall host Mark Vickers


scribe: and Yosuke from Tomo-Digi for sponsorship support
... and all PC members, Scribes, etc.
... and also the OC of this workshop


scribe: I would like to close and thank everyone for coming
... work over next two days to take results of this workshop to move things forward
... thank you very much

<jeff> http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2011/SessionIdeas

<jeff> Above link is for attendee suggestions wiki (for TPAC)

Workshop Day2 ends

[End of minutes]

Yosuke Funahashi, Giuseppe Pascale, Mark Vickers, Karen Myers and Kaz Ashimura, Workshop Organizing Committee

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