HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

14 Jul 2011


See also: IRC log


John_Foliot, Michael_Cooper, Janina_Sajka, Judy, kliehm, Mike, paulc, Marco_Ranon, Cynthia_Shelly, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
Laura_Carlson, Eric_Carlson, Joshue_O'Connor
Michael, MichaelC


<trackbot> Date: 14 July 2011

<janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon

<janina> agenda: this

<MichaelC> scribe: Michael

<MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC

Last Call Review Status Checkin http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review

js: wanted to do another round of email reminders

mc: UAAG has done some reviews in their wiki, Jeanne will copy over

<looking at a few sections>

js: going through the reviews will be a lot of work

perhaps need extended meetings

Survey on extended teleconference times: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/2011-07_specreview_times/results

js: everyone, please submit your availabilities

The div element and a11y http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/grouping-content.html#the-div-element

js: question of if there are accessibility issues with note: "Authors are strongly encouraged to view the div element as an element of last resort, for when no other element is suitable. Use of the div element instead of more appropriate elements leads to poor accessibility for readers and poor maintainability for authors."

any concerns with this?


will close this issue

Bug Triage Subteam: Recruiting; New Tasks

js: Bug triage team did good work, need it to come back to work now

media sub-team would like support in near future

need to reinvigorate efforts

aware that Martin's role has changed and unable to continue leading that sub-team

need to find someone who's thorough about going through issues, makes sure things are dealt with

mk: also note that Laura not able to continue her task of reviewing incoming bugs for potential accessibility relationship

which was first input to the bug triage sub-team

js: that was a valuable service, need that covered as well

jf: know there are some new bugs

pc: encourage bug triage sub-team to filter for a11y relationship, and also to consider ones that should be Priority 1

jb: perhaps should look into that issue today

mr: don't think able to chair group, but can continue working on it

js: maybe we could draft LĂ©onie

will follow up with her

Subteam Reports: Text; Media

== Text ==

jb: discussed early draft of change proposal on table summary

josh and katie have taken over from gregory

starting with reopen request and rationale

needs some compilation and structuring

also discussing meta name=generator

longdesc ...

PC asked group to respond to other change proposals, group will be doing so

have responses to Jonas, not comfortable responding to Matt

<paulc> I understand

pc: take up one of the challenges is better than none

jb: realize has process difficulty

pc: so you'd rebut Matt's points in survey

jb: yes, if it must be surveyed, we'd have to dredge up links, reformulate prior discussion

question of what chairs have to do

ability to judiciously put together proposals to survey?

pc: precedent has always been that we survey all proposals on the table

jb: thought had combined proposals

pc: in extreme circumstances, have done survey on the underlying questions

jb: hope response on Jonas proposal might help with that

pc: will consider that suggestion

jb: Laura's proposal has done a lot of work to reach out to stakeholders, prove functionality, etc.

would be odd to discard that work

jb: also working with WAI Coordination Group on location of alt guidance

MC has prepared content of a change proposal with rationale / explanation

draft available: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jul/att-0095/alt-techs-change-proposal.html

<JF> +Q

there may be some others coming soon as well

== Media ==

jf: down to two basic issues

hierarchical navigation

requirement to walk multimedia index like we do with DAISY etc.

in granular fashion

two approaches: one is to use lists, other is to use script to do heuristic analysis on timestamps to locate items under chapters

both are logged as bugs, waiting on editor response to see what next

next media issue is how to represent static image when media not playing

colloquially "paused media", also known as poster alt issue

seem to have a philosophical impasse

relates to the discussion in text team on Jonas proposal

I am in process of working up a detailed response

original issue was closed without prejudice because of timeline

but bug entry still in play

== Canvas ==

js: Rich not here to report

jb: <something about dialog in various places, scribe can't parse>

some statements appear to represent lack of commitment to make canvas accessible

TF needs to monitor, issue of important graphics format without commitment to making it accessible

cs: trying to find help in fleshing out script+css solution using shadow dom

<JF> +q

pc: seems one camp thinks canvas shouldn't be used, so why bother to make it accessible; other thinks everything should be regardless

see implementers voting with their feet, don't think the scenario will be used

jb: so maybe use case needs clarified

pc: implementers don't think use case is supported

opinion based on high-level reading of a long thread....

jb: think it's worth exploring the gulf


had heard that shadow dom approach was considered not viable

cs: only objection I know of is that it only supports rectangular bounds

but that's true of MSAA and other platform APIs, Flash, Silverlight...

so not sure this is a big problem

need to spend time on the use cases in this light

<paulc> I need to logoff to get ready for the HTML WG Weekly meeting which I am chairing this week.

might be able to come up with "good enough" first step solution

<janina> q

jf: <scribe distracted by possible zakim bug, so missed>

also, one perspective has been that we shouldda used SVG, but that's a difficult conversation to have

<judy> jf: steve faulkner brought a bunch of good examples, but others said, should have been SVG, but that's shoulda/woulda/coulda.

cs: market might choose SVG for certain applications, but don't know what will happen

jf: isn't proposal lightweight?

cs: not enough so

jb: location of examples?

js, jf: in the thread

jb: seems some not persuaded by use cases, others unsure about future directions

we see often that we try to prescribe uses of our technologies, but can't control it

people with disabilities tend to lose out in such situations

pulling together use cases and issues would be helpful

cs: for use cases on wiki, some are must-have, some are nice-to-have

<rich joins, people summarize>

rs: CSS is a lot of work for developer

canvas visual renderings have transformations applied

and don't have uniform square shapes

CSS would have to address those

<JF> Steve F's examples: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Jul/0202.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Jul/0207.html

then there's question of scrolling

makes lots of work for authors, easy to mess up

cs: rectangular is part of aapi

rs: so have to do mapping from non-rectangular to rectangular, lots of work

should have UA do that, not author

cs: in general better to leave to UA, but prioritization needed

making easier for author might be a nice-to-have

rs: it's a big burden and duplicate work

cs: but we don't have market information about these use cases

hard to convince implementers of priority

rs: any aapi must have bounds of object

cs: think CSS solution may be good enough for now

if it turns out there are common cases where it's not good enough, we can add functionality in future

but we don't know this yet

rs: what does that mean?

cs: random example, say people build pie charts, CSS is good enough

but they don't build photo editors, for which CSS wouldn't be good enough

rs: have already submitted diagrams as use case

cs: but don't know if that's a common use case

for canvas

rs: of course we don't know future, but still need to put accessibility in spec

cs, rs: <overlapping, getting very difficult to scribe>

<JF> +1 to Rich

rs: <something about should be doable>

cs: <something about haven't seen evidence of use cases, think it's hard>

<hit testing, other techie terms, disagreements on triviality, scribe getting really lost>

<scribe gives up, need someone closer to the technical details to capture>

<kliehm> Regarding Bug Triage priorities, I'd see tagging and triaging the new bugs as priority: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=HTML+WG&component=HTML5+spec+%28editor%3A+Ian+Hickson%29&chfieldfrom=-4w&chfieldto=Now&bug_status=NEW

<more overlapping conversation on this topic for about 10 minutes>

trackbot, end meeting

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

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Found Scribe: Michael
Found Scribe: MichaelC
Inferring ScribeNick: MichaelC
Scribes: Michael, MichaelC
Default Present: John_Foliot, Michael_Cooper, Janina_Sajka, Judy, kliehm, Mike, paulc, Marco_Ranon, Cynthia_Shelly, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
Present: John_Foliot Michael_Cooper Janina_Sajka Judy kliehm Mike paulc Marco_Ranon Cynthia_Shelly Rich_Schwerdtfeger
Regrets: Laura_Carlson Eric_Carlson Joshue_O'Connor
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jul/0090.html
Found Date: 14 Jul 2011
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-html-a11y-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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