See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 14 July 2011
<janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
<janina> agenda: this
<MichaelC> scribe: Michael
<MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
js: wanted to do another round of email reminders
mc: UAAG has done some reviews in their wiki, Jeanne will copy over
<looking at a few sections>
js: going through the reviews will be a lot of work
perhaps need extended meetings
Survey on extended teleconference times: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/2011-07_specreview_times/results
js: everyone, please submit your availabilities
js: question of if there are accessibility issues with note: "Authors are strongly encouraged to view the div element as an element of last resort, for when no other element is suitable. Use of the div element instead of more appropriate elements leads to poor accessibility for readers and poor maintainability for authors."
any concerns with this?
<crickets>
will close this issue
js: Bug triage team did good work, need it to come back to work now
media sub-team would like support in near future
need to reinvigorate efforts
aware that Martin's role has changed and unable to continue leading that sub-team
need to find someone who's thorough about going through issues, makes sure things are dealt with
mk: also note that Laura not able to continue her task of reviewing incoming bugs for potential accessibility relationship
which was first input to the bug triage sub-team
js: that was a valuable service, need that covered as well
jf: know there are some new bugs
pc: encourage bug triage sub-team to filter for a11y relationship, and also to consider ones that should be Priority 1
jb: perhaps should look into that issue today
mr: don't think able to chair group, but can continue working on it
js: maybe we could draft Léonie
will follow up with her
== Text ==
jb: discussed early draft of change proposal on table summary
josh and katie have taken over from gregory
starting with reopen request and rationale
needs some compilation and structuring
also discussing meta name=generator
longdesc ...
PC asked group to respond to other change proposals, group will be doing so
have responses to Jonas, not comfortable responding to Matt
<paulc> I understand
pc: take up one of the challenges is better than none
jb: realize has process difficulty
pc: so you'd rebut Matt's points in survey
jb: yes, if it must be surveyed, we'd have to dredge up links, reformulate prior discussion
question of what chairs have to do
ability to judiciously put together proposals to survey?
pc: precedent has always been that we survey all proposals on the table
jb: thought had combined proposals
pc: in extreme circumstances, have done survey on the underlying questions
jb: hope response on Jonas proposal might help with that
pc: will consider that suggestion
jb: Laura's proposal has done a lot of work to reach out to stakeholders, prove functionality, etc.
would be odd to discard that work
jb: also working with WAI Coordination Group on location of alt guidance
MC has prepared content of a change proposal with rationale / explanation
draft available: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jul/att-0095/alt-techs-change-proposal.html
<JF> +Q
there may be some others coming soon as well
== Media ==
jf: down to two basic issues
hierarchical navigation
requirement to walk multimedia index like we do with DAISY etc.
in granular fashion
two approaches: one is to use lists, other is to use script to do heuristic analysis on timestamps to locate items under chapters
both are logged as bugs, waiting on editor response to see what next
next media issue is how to represent static image when media not playing
colloquially "paused media", also known as poster alt issue
seem to have a philosophical impasse
relates to the discussion in text team on Jonas proposal
I am in process of working up a detailed response
original issue was closed without prejudice because of timeline
but bug entry still in play
== Canvas ==
js: Rich not here to report
jb: <something about dialog in various places, scribe can't parse>
some statements appear to represent lack of commitment to make canvas accessible
TF needs to monitor, issue of important graphics format without commitment to making it accessible
cs: trying to find help in fleshing out script+css solution using shadow dom
<JF> +q
pc: seems one camp thinks canvas shouldn't be used, so why bother to make it accessible; other thinks everything should be regardless
see implementers voting with their feet, don't think the scenario will be used
jb: so maybe use case needs clarified
pc: implementers don't think use case is supported
opinion based on high-level reading of a long thread....
jb: think it's worth exploring the gulf
ack
had heard that shadow dom approach was considered not viable
cs: only objection I know of is that it only supports rectangular bounds
but that's true of MSAA and other platform APIs, Flash, Silverlight...
so not sure this is a big problem
need to spend time on the use cases in this light
<paulc> I need to logoff to get ready for the HTML WG Weekly meeting which I am chairing this week.
might be able to come up with "good enough" first step solution
<janina> q
jf: <scribe distracted by possible zakim bug, so missed>
also, one perspective has been that we shouldda used SVG, but that's a difficult conversation to have
<judy> jf: steve faulkner brought a bunch of good examples, but others said, should have been SVG, but that's shoulda/woulda/coulda.
cs: market might choose SVG for certain applications, but don't know what will happen
jf: isn't proposal lightweight?
cs: not enough so
jb: location of examples?
js, jf: in the thread
jb: seems some not persuaded by use cases, others unsure about future directions
we see often that we try to prescribe uses of our technologies, but can't control it
people with disabilities tend to lose out in such situations
pulling together use cases and issues would be helpful
cs: for use cases on wiki, some are must-have, some are nice-to-have
<rich joins, people summarize>
rs: CSS is a lot of work for developer
canvas visual renderings have transformations applied
and don't have uniform square shapes
CSS would have to address those
<JF> Steve F's examples: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Jul/0202.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Jul/0207.html
then there's question of scrolling
makes lots of work for authors, easy to mess up
cs: rectangular is part of aapi
rs: so have to do mapping from non-rectangular to rectangular, lots of work
should have UA do that, not author
cs: in general better to leave to UA, but prioritization needed
making easier for author might be a nice-to-have
rs: it's a big burden and duplicate work
cs: but we don't have market information about these use cases
hard to convince implementers of priority
rs: any aapi must have bounds of object
cs: think CSS solution may be good enough for now
if it turns out there are common cases where it's not good enough, we can add functionality in future
but we don't know this yet
rs: what does that mean?
cs: random example, say people build pie charts, CSS is good enough
but they don't build photo editors, for which CSS wouldn't be good enough
rs: have already submitted diagrams as use case
cs: but don't know if that's a common use case
for canvas
rs: of course we don't know future, but still need to put accessibility in spec
cs, rs: <overlapping, getting very difficult to scribe>
<JF> +1 to Rich
rs: <something about should be doable>
cs: <something about haven't seen evidence of use cases, think it's hard>
<hit testing, other techie terms, disagreements on triviality, scribe getting really lost>
<scribe gives up, need someone closer to the technical details to capture>
<kliehm> Regarding Bug Triage priorities, I'd see tagging and triaging the new bugs as priority: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=HTML+WG&component=HTML5+spec+%28editor%3A+Ian+Hickson%29&chfieldfrom=-4w&chfieldto=Now&bug_status=NEW
<more overlapping conversation on this topic for about 10 minutes>
trackbot, end meeting
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136 of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/with/without/ Succeeded: s/autho/author/ Found embedded ScribeOptions: -final *** RESTARTING DUE TO EMBEDDED OPTIONS *** Found Scribe: Michael Found Scribe: MichaelC Inferring ScribeNick: MichaelC Scribes: Michael, MichaelC Default Present: John_Foliot, Michael_Cooper, Janina_Sajka, Judy, kliehm, Mike, paulc, Marco_Ranon, Cynthia_Shelly, Rich_Schwerdtfeger Present: John_Foliot Michael_Cooper Janina_Sajka Judy kliehm Mike paulc Marco_Ranon Cynthia_Shelly Rich_Schwerdtfeger Regrets: Laura_Carlson Eric_Carlson Joshue_O'Connor Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jul/0090.html Found Date: 14 Jul 2011 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-html-a11y-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]