<trackbot> Date: 07 July 2011

<thorton> Zakim: +1.408 is me

<scribe> scribeNick: ed

TPAC 2011 registration

<heycam> http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/

CM: recently opened, it's in november
... wanted to clarify when the meeting will be?

ED: svgopen is October 17 to 20, 2011
... TPAC is 31 October to 4 November 2011

DS: there is some overlap in the dates for SVG, Webapps and (missed bit)

<shepazu> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2011/

CM: it says SVG may move to thu-fri

<heycam> shepazu, http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/

ED: would like to know when we'll meet at TPAC, mon-tue or thu-fri

CM, DS: would prefer thu-fri

ED: that's fine with me

CM: if we ask them to swap to thu-fri that wouldn't cause any conflicts?
... maybe SVG was put mon-tue to not overlap with HTMLWG

DS: will see if we can get it changed to thu-fri

FX charter items

CM: vincent mailed the sheet with the latest discussions we had
... and CL said CSSWG was happy with those
... so both groups can move forward with chartering

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/0008.html

FTR this was the proposal from the svg wg: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/att-0000/FX_Task_Force_and_Related_CSS___SVG_Specifications_and_Drafts.html

DS: will get to it this week, certainly before the next meeting
... anything we need to discuss wrt that?

CM: is there an FX call before the F2F?

ED: might be good, will send out an agenda for next monday

DS: the pointer-event spec hasn't been updated lately, maybe we need a status update

CM: might be only on www-style
... TH are you attending the F2F in Seattle?

TH: I might

CM: another reminder for people to put their agenda items on the wikipage

opentype / svgfonts

CM: on the call last week we had a generally positive response to the proposal
... i think it would be good to send a response on the mailinglist, perhaps an offer to work together

DS: i'm interesting doing more advanced fonts

ED: i do like the markup way, as already speced, to be able to mix the content and do dynamic updates
... but I do see the positive aspects of the proposal
... it's just another way to encapsulate the font

CM: the proposal does seem to allow you to do dynamic stuff, but with a wrapper and do some binary stuff
... point being, it's possible but not simple, to modify the font data
... i think it does move to dynamic in-document manipulation

DS: interpreting and rendering the font is the bulk of the work, the serialization is relatively minor
... if this is an acceptable format that everyone supports then we can try to solve the serialization problem later if appropriate

CM: i agree with that
... whenever we expose lower level apis ninja javascript library authors tend to make some nice abstractions from them
... bringing this topic up was to ask how the group should respond to the thread

DS: i think we should offer to help, and send a positive response

ED: adding another serialization of svgfonts is fine with me

<scribe> ACTION: CM to respond to the opentype/svgfont thread on behalf of the group [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/07-svg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - CM

<trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. charles, cmccorma)

<scribe> ACTION: Cameron to respond to the opentype/svgfont thread on behalf of the group [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/07-svg-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3060 - Respond to the opentype/svgfont thread on behalf of the group [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-07-14].

SVG 1.1 second edition

CM: today is the last day to respond to the AC review survey
... only complaint is about references and relaxng/dtd

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/0009.html

CM: the DTD files in our repo were modified in the first LC?

ED: yes

http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/master/DTD/svg11-flat.dtd

CM: what were the changes we made?

ED: see the cvs changelog link above

DS: the rng would be informative?

CM: right
... so i don't think it's needed with the REC itself
... so we haven't made one
... we could say someone will make an RNG
... i think CL was going to talk to him about this

<heycam> and murata-san was going to make one

http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/DTD/svg11-flat.dtd

previous REC linked to http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.1/DTD/svg11-flat-20030114.dtd

ED: it's in a different location from the spec itself

CM: might make sense to install the modified DTD there too

DS: that works for me
... will check if we can make a change to add the informative reference when we move to REC

CM: we need the published REC date in the url anyway
... and we need a new errata document to link to too
... so I expect such changes to be possible

<scribe> ACTION: cameron to copy over the 1.1F2 DTD and give it a date + link to it from 1.1F2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/07/07-svg-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3061 - Copy over the 1.1F2 DTD and give it a date + link to it from 1.1F2 [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-07-14].

CM: how do we proceed after today with moving to REC?

DS: *reading process document*
... assume CL and I will take care of it
... we'll get the documents in the right place and publish

canvas accessibility

<shepazu> http://schepers.cc/retain-a11y-immediately

DS: that's my proposal

<shepazu> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Canvas_Accessibility_Use_Cases

DS: there has been a long discussion the canvas mailinglist
... rich schwerdfeger claims svg is not accessible
... canvas is an immidiate mode api, svg is a retained mode api
... they want to add retained mode characteristics to canvas
... primary use-case is so that screenreaders / magnifiers you'd be able to find it and zoom
... whatever you need to zoom on
... charles pritchard suggested to make a subtree (you can tuck in elements inside the canvas element and that's invisible but can be exposed to a11y tools)
... e.g a dropdown
... other aspects of the subtree is that it can retain text
... you'd have to do it manually

CM: you'd have to manually mirror the content
... some proposals had some automated parts in it

DS: the functionality allows you to make an accessible html version of whatever you made in canvas
... personally i think it's barking up the wrong tree
... when it was just functional things, say a form control in canvas that you then made an accessible equivalent of that
... but then it's also the shape of the thing, the boundingbox of the form control
... and that's when people said this is svg
... instead of making an svg-like thing, why not just use svg?
... you can already layer svg on top of canvas
... you can integrate svg and canvas on the rendering level, and you could put the svg either in the dom, or in the subtree underneath the canvas, or you could put it in the dom and reflect it in the subtree
... either put it in the dom, or in the subtree-dom, or a pointer to the subtree dom

CM: not sure i follow
... the last part

DS: you could e.g put an svg:use element to link to something

CM: what is the distinction?

DS: if you put in svg elements they could render to the canvas
... but it would have all the location information

CM: the inverse of that seems logical
... having canvaslike things inside an svg tree
... a pixelbased container

DS: right, that's been discussed before, drawing using the canvas api to an svg:image element for example

CM: that is closer to their main use-case i think
... make widgets in svg

DS: two vendors have already said that they don't want to add retainedmode functionality to canvas, since there's already svg

CM: in the proposals you'd have to do manual work to get things accessible
... doing something more complex with WAI and ARIA is what we need to do

DS: CM your aria-region idea was reasonable
... curious, how would we like to see svg and canvas mixed? and would it satisfy the usecases the a11y ppl are looking at

CM: probably we'd get back that svg isn't accessible yet, or if it's enough to allow aria attributes on all svg elements or if we need to do more

DS: we probably have to do a bit more
... first we have the logical form controls
... then you have the geometric information
... maybe they want to have the geometric info completely separate from the logical / navigation order stuff and functionality of the form controls

CM: right, in the subtree theyr'e using aria attributes to have form controls as values and tab order
... the region where they're painted on the canvas is defined in another way

DS: they're trying to accomplish different things
... whole thing seems like a kludge
... best thing we can do as a group
... with their proposal you'd have to maintain the dom yourself and mirror the logics
... it seems theyre willing to settle for different but equal, but if you have to maintain it yourself it's going to be worse than if you have an api that allows you to do both immidiate mode and retained mode graphics
... with my API you'd say if you wanted retained or not when you use the API

CM: so you can use the smae painting calls?

DS: yes
... if you have an asteroids game you have lots of objects that you need to track but they're not possible to interact with, until they get close enough to interact with, at which point you say now i want retained mode
... i think what people liked the most was the idea of only having to learn one api for canvas and svg, even if there are some differences between the two
... would like to have a discussion on canvas/svg integration

CM: good topic for the F2F?

DS: yes
... they may be thinking of full svg implementation compared to canvas implementation in thirdparty products, and then tipping over in favor of a simpler model
... not necessarily involving browsers
... however if it's meant to be proprietary then why force it on everyone?
... will write up some use-cases around this and put it on the svg wiki
... and we can discuss it at the f2f

<thorton> phone's down!

<shepazu> nope, all good, heycam

<shepazu> trackbot, end telcon

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136  of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/javascript library authors/ninja javascript library authors/
Succeeded: s/to do/to add/
Found ScribeNick: ed
Inferring Scribes: ed
Default Present: heycam, Doug_Schepers, +1.408.839.aaaa, [IPcaller], ed, Tim_Horton
Present: heycam Doug_Schepers +1.408.839.aaaa [IPcaller] ed Tim_Horton
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/0007.html
Found Date: 07 Jul 2011
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/07/07-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: cameron cm