<anne> I need a couple of minutes to set up things, but I can make it today

<anne> I literally just arrived in my office

<anne> Luggage got left behind and then the Flytoget didn't leave in twenty minutes so I decided to take the express bus... anyway...

<dbaron_phone> I have to be in 2 meetings at once right now

<glazou> dbaron_phone: pick the most important then

<arronei_> css is the most important

<glazou> eh, not always

<glazou> member:Zakim, who is noisy?

<glazou> sigh

<scribe> scribenick: smfr

Extra Agenda items?

Publications / Review requests

<dbaron> By starting first, CSS wins :-)

Namespaces

plinss: ready to request PR for Namespaces. i18n removed objection

<anne> Request for finding: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Jun/0188.html

<dbaron> "This passcode is not valid."

<anne> was for me

CSS Exclusions

<dbaron> (6 times so far)

<anne> ask the operator?

<anne> might be overload issue or something

<dbaron> oh, I know the passcode

<dbaron> it's just Zakim is really picky about tones

vincent: not ready for publication yet. still working on use cases etc.

<Ms2ger> I see

CSS Speech

<anne> I had a similar problem trying to join HTML/XML the other day

<dbaron> Was there a resolution on publishing namespaces?

(danielweck not on the call)

CSS3 Images

Tab sent a list of changes

<Ms2ger> (When namespaces goes to PR, can selectors become a REC?)

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jun/0716.html

fantasai: section 5.1 it's unclear what changed. we have resolution to change the degrees issue with gradients
... what is the current meaning of the keywords in the draft?

bradk: it's opposite

<glazou> Ms2ger: I hope yes

fantasai: should make it consistent with the previous WD and then mark it an issue

TabAtkins: i will do it

will revisit next week

<fantasai> http://www.w3.org/blog/CSS/2011/06/22/resolutions_167

CSS Module Templates

<danielweck> PS: I'm on the IRC...still trying to connect on SIP

fantasai: had some feedback from jdaggett and dbaron; have not incorporated feedback from dbaron yet

<dbaron> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-module/

<fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-module/

<Ms2ger> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-module/

<fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jun/0509.html

<fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jun/0534.html

jdaggett: the intro is separated from the body by 3 sections which contain info that should be in a preface

suggests an initial section with that stuff in

TabAtkins: agrees; boilerplate stuff should be collected together at beginning or end

Florian: would prefer it be at the top

fantasai: don't want it to merge with the status section. Move Document Conventions section to the conformance section near the end?

<dbaron> I wonder how much we can do and remain compliant to http://www.w3.org/2005/07/pubrules

jdaggett: put after TOC, before Intro

TabAtkins: how much flexibility do we have with the Status section?

fantasai: there is some useful stuff, but much is not useful

glazou: we don't have total flexibility. see pubrules above

jdaggett: confused by the formatting. issues sprinkled all over the place

fantasai: these are things that need to be replaced. they come from the template

<dbaron> pubrules do appear to require Abstract, then SOTD, then TOC

jdaggett: all the issues imply that there's something wrong with the template

glazou: jdaggett wants another way to showing this

jdaggett: issue is not the meaning that's implied here

<dbaron> I actually like the big "Issue" markers for actual issues

smfr: this is a template after all. does it matter?

jdaggett: there are people coming into the group who will be confused by all these issues

<dbaron> dbaron: I think we should not worry about what the template looks like, only what the resulting spec looks like.

plinss: ugly is better!

Florian: put all the boilerplate at the bottom?

TabAtkins: put all the boilerplate related to implementors at the bottom?

glazou: not sure we can do that?

fantasai: we can, and have

glazou: specs are made for implementors, not authors, so do we care?

TabAtkins: some authors read specs.

glazou: they can skip that section

fantasai: we can move down; what matters is what's normative, and what's informative
... values section can be tailored based on the spec

<Florianr> I didn't mean "put all the boilerplate at the bottom", but "put all the boilerplate that immediately follows introduction to immediately before introduction".

glazou: suggest fantasai comes up with a reshaped template and we discuss again

Publication request: CSS3 Speech

danielweck: would like to publish CSS3 Speech as LCWD
... there has been discussion about epub3 media overlays, but believes that this does not interact with css3 speech

smfr: what would a test suite look like?

danielweck: there's some discussion; would have to talk to implementors about implementation
... LCWD does not require test suite

TabAtkins: right; needs suite to exit CR

danielweck: would be good to have new WD, but a LCWD would give the draft more presence

glazou: and triggers comments from other WGs
... please list in email the WGs you think are interested
... fantasai you need another week?

fantasai: i can review before Tuesday

RESOLUTION: publish CSS3 Speech next week

<fantasai> as LCWD

Seattle F2F

vincent: trying to find a room to host at Adobe, but also working with Microsoft to find space

sylvaing: assuming that folks will prefer Seattle

glazou: before going on, but do we still keep this July F2F?

jdaggett: we have a lot of work and having a F2F makes sense

glazou: is that opinion shared?

[general yes]

glazou: are the dates firm?

[general yes]

RESOLUTION: Seattle dates are firm

glazou: sylvaing, when can you post an update on the final location

sylvaing: end of next week, pref. earlier?
... hotels might book up because its a busy weekend

johnjan: hotel on the wiki is close to Adobe for sure

<dbaron> wiki url?

vincent: Marriott Courtyard is listed or the SVG meetin

g

<anne> not listed on http://wiki.csswg.org/planning ?

<anne> (it's not, I mean)

<vhardy> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Seattle_2011

anne: when can we have an agenda?

glazou: we would like to talk with anne about the CSS OM

Topic CSS OM

anne: CSS OM hasn't changed for a while (been on vacation)

<dbaron> And the dates are June 24-26, correct?

<Ms2ger> July?

Aug 2010: implementors would experiment to see if the proposed values API makes sense

<dbaron> And the dates are July 24-26, correct?

anne: hasn't had any feedback from implementors

<Florianr> July 24-26, yes.

anne: need more discussion for caret position(?)
... dbaron raised issue with media query listeners and when listeners are called
... TabAtkins suggested new APIs for location of elements on screen, border boxes, margin boxes, including transforms
... unclear if need more than getBoundingClient rect etc.

glazou: i sent mail "CSS OM list of issues" in May

anne: these are new feature requests; I haven't looked into them in detail

glazou: what's the immediate future for the document?

anne: need feedback from implementors before things can proceed

glazou: would a first public WD give it more visibility

anne: yes

glazou: is there immediate work to make it ready for first public WD?

anne: no, but would like link to current editors draft

smfr: shouldnt' we just publish WD more frequently

fantasai: we should publish new WD when there are significant changes

glazou: the W3C needs to produce stable documents

jdaggett: the font spec does this. doesn't seem like an issue

anne: why would you review the WD when the ED has lots of fixes

glazou: in CSS 2.1 we've backed out changes, to it can happen that the ED is wrong
... WD needs to be stable

<tantek> IETF drafts have expiration dates, what's the historical reason why WDs don't have expiration dates?

glazou: :)

<tantek> or rather, could we, as one WG, put expiration dates in our WDs?

glazou: should we link to the editors draft here?

fantasai: we should have this in the template and do this for all WDs

<tantek> fantasai - agreed

<tantek> all WDs should link to their EDs

<Ms2ger> Absolutely

<fantasai> RESOLVED: Add editor's draft link to module template

<fantasai> RESOLVED: Publish CSSOM as FPWD

RESOLUTION: and add link to editors drafts in all working drafts

<tantek> :)

CSS Fonts etc

jdaggett: glen adams from samsung has objected to any kind of same origin restriction

need to resolve whether the same origin restriction is removed from the CSS3 Fonts spec

<tantek> re: channel topic, I don't see krinh in the channel, and http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ times out. It appears the irc logs are down.

<Ms2ger> tantek, known issue

jdaggett: propose this as s topic for next week

<tantek> Ms2ger - shall we update the channel topic accordingly then?

<Ms2ger> Expectation is that logs will be added retro-actively, I think

sylvaing: there is an organization that has normative dependencies on CSS3 working drafts; it's a problem

<fantasai> sylvaing: They're objecting to what they see as breaking changes

<anne> tantek, it will be fixed Saturday

<anne> tantek, hopefully

<tantek> thanks anne

<fantasai> kimberlyblessing: Comcast is also in this group. I'm trying to explain as much as I can to the team how W3C works

glazou: would help to have a liason person communicate with this group

jdaggett: how can they refer to the CSS3 Fonts spec? It used to be 2 specs (fonts, and Web Fonts), and @font-face used to be in Web Fonts

sylvaing: we have to resolve a hard dependency here, since there may be a breaking change here

sylvaing will keep the WG informed

<kimberlyblessing> fantasai, thanks :)

Line Grid proposal

florian: fantasai made alternative proposal at Kyoto F2F, but it hasn't been written down

jdaggett: this is not my recollection from Japan

Florian: we discussed why we need it, not the details of the proposal itself

jdaggett: we talked about merging this and the Line Layout spec
... suggests Florian post an email describing the issue and referring to the minutes

<johnjan> This might help for the F2F: A == Hotel from the SVG agenda linked by vhardy above; B == Adobe; C == MS South Lake Union Offices; D == MS Corporate Headquarters; E == MS Bellevue Offices.

<johnjan> http://www.bing.com/maps/?FORM=Z9LH4#Y3A9NDcuNjMyNDYzMzMxMjkzODF+LTEyMi4yNDA1OTA2MzE5NjE4MiZsdmw9MTImc3R5PXImcnRwPXBvcy40Ny42Mjc3MzhfLTEyMi4zNDAwNzdfOTI1JTIwV2VzdGxha2UlMjBBdmUlMjBOJTJDJTIwU2VhdHRsZSUyQyUyMFdBJTIwOTgxMDktMzUyNF9fX2VffnBvcy40Ny42NDkzMzVfLTEyMi4zNDc5OTZfODAxJTIwTiUyMDM0dGglMjBTdCUyQyUyMFNlYXR0bGUlMkMlMjBXQSUyMDk4MTAzLTg4ODJfX19lX35w

<fantasai> ACTION: fantasai to post summary of proposal to www-style [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/29-css-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-336 - Post summary of proposal to www-style [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-07-06].

<glazou> johnjan: please send to w3c-css-wg

Charter

<johnjan> will do. link got cut off anyway

fantasai: what's the state of the charter

vhardy: we have to discuss the FX part

<sylvaing> this hotel is certainly ideal as it would be a very short walking distance to our SLU office so I'll aim to locate us there. stay tuned....

move charter discussion to email

fantasai: how do I tell scribenick we're done?

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136  of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/vhardy/florian/
Found ScribeNick: smfr
Inferring Scribes: smfr
Default Present: Florianr, plinss, glazou, hober, kimberlyblessing, kojiishi, +1.415.832.aaaa, smfr, arno, arronei_, stearns, jdaggett, anne, bradk, johnjan, fantasai, Oliver_Goldman, +1.281.305.aabb, TabAtkins_, Cathy, [Microsoft], dbaron, SteveZ, danielweck
Present: Florianr plinss glazou hober kimberlyblessing kojiishi +1.415.832.aaaa smfr arno arronei_ stearns jdaggett anne bradk johnjan fantasai Oliver_Goldman +1.281.305.aabb TabAtkins_ Cathy [Microsoft] dbaron SteveZ danielweck

WARNING: No meeting title found!
You should specify the meeting title like this:
<dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting


WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Got date from IRC log name: 29 Jun 2011
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/06/29-css-minutes.html
People with action items: fantasai

WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.