See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 05 May 2011
<MikeSmith> Zaki, this will be WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)
<MikeSmith> scribe: Stevef
MS: stuffed up the passcode, remember to chnage for next time
JF doing mop up on issue 152 multi track API, essentially resolved, discussion about @king attributes, spec shows 5, but wiki page with other values, at least 3 more and maybe some others
JF: require captions and
subtitles, maybe commentary still being discussed, bug filed
against this item.
... as far as spec, john is unsure
MS: is there anything that chairs are waiting on?
JF: not that i know
... 2-3 bugs resolved
... if we can get @kind values resolved amicaably before last call should be good
MS: any questions, no move on
<MikeSmith> scribe: oedipus
SF: met monday -- discussing
validation issues with text alternatives with judy and on list
using the [text] subject line tag -- reopening issues --
gathering information on validation issue decisions
... ones most worked on at the moment: meta genarator and @title -- also work on role=presentation (would like to revisit)
... talk about FIGCAPTION -- trying to reason it out rather than reopen at this time -- agree on for past 2 years -- judy and geoff (WBGH) working on FIGCAPTION and longdesc
SF: moved formal objection for @alt and @title -- waiting on response
<Stevef> oedipus: i can take it back now
JF: also work on meta genarator decision -- fairly verbose discussion currently -- whittle down to 2 parts to present all evidence and in more sumarized fashion
SF: issue of meta genarator tag a generic thing that was used in past in a LOT of published content -- didn't do to placate validator
JF: 10 years of legacy content
with meta generator strings -- must be considered
... turning meta genarator string into "magic token" is problem
SF: meta generator exceptions and
error rules in HTML5 investigated?
... MikeSmith know of any?
... have meta generator that is exception to use of @alt -- shuts up validator -- any other errors that tell validator to ignore specific syntax
... can imagine if press rules, will be other requests for rules -- why a single exception for @alt
MS: worded in spec not to suppress error, but says alt required unsless there is a meta tag with name="generator" or a @title
SF: flagging a conformance error
MS: could perceive that way, but
are other things in same class -- not unique in that
... behavior class performance criteria for others as for generator -
MS: select element has required
attribute and no multiple attr and size of 1 (have to compute,
not just value of attr) if all are case, must have option attr
that either has a value attr or doesn't have any text
... other cases: complicated assertions in spec
SF: doesn't have anything to do
with setting flag via meta generator
... is there a flag one can set for changing error to non-error?
... happy to discuss offline with MS
MS: happy to discuss offline -- not the only case
JF: interested in question by SF
-- what we have is a meta string -- example you gave VERY
tightly focused -- generator string in hand of document and
effects ENTIRE document -- for CMS systems when in template can
negatively affect entire site
... anything in spec that changes performance criteria for entire document
MS: this case is an extreme one,
but not the only one
... presence of single element with certain attr in document affects every image in document
... talked with SF about this offline, but think in terms of validator behavior, don't think many users will expect when put in meta generator element in document that that means they are opting out of checking for @alt on img -- something consciously doing by adding generator? -- that to me is strong argument -- people want conformance checker to alert them to things that might otherwise miss
JF: CMS supports 150 content authors who don't see code ever -- just add content to template -- don't know what meta generator string is -- 3rd party conformance tools have to deal with fact that @alt not needed if meta generator inserted -- allowed because of meta generator string -- assert most authors willl have NO idea they are creating a problem because generator string says confromant
<Leonie_Watson> +1 to JF
MS: conformance checker hat on
this doesn't seem to be optimal behaviour -- should persue, but
not now -- supportive of trying to see whether this is what
other people working on ER tools think is acceptable
... talk with henri about it on list good approach
JF: ping RichS from IBM
SF: OpenAjax Alliance
MS: FIGCAPTION -- state of things: had agreement with TF just a few weeks ago --changed -- don't know how or why
i don't remember consensus on FIGCAPTION
<JF> JF wanted to include the wiki page for the @kind values for the multi-track API discussion: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Track_Kinds
SF: misunderstanding in regards
what WAI-CG agreed to over 2 years ago -- spec changed
... FIGCAPTION supposed to be a caption, not a text alternative -- use cases that are WCAG conformant that a CAPTION is sufficient textual alternative
MS: think we need to not operate
under assumption that HTML WG chairs are going to delay LC for
Text Subteam to complete work and have reviewed by TF -- not
prudent assumption -- chairs plan to follow tight schedule for
September 2011 publication -
... need to bring up for discussion in TF
JF: suggest MS discuss this with Judy Brewer
MS: anything else on text subteam?
<Stevef> SF: FIGCAPTION supposed to be a caption, not a text alternative -- use cases that are WCAG conformant that a CAPTION is sufficient textual alternative
<Stevef> <img role="presentation" title="poot">
SF: if no @alt, but @title, role
still presentation for element/attr and will NOT be in A11y API
or accessible to ATs
... allowing that to occur means that it will not work for AT users -- role=presentation means content not available
<MikeSmith> scribe: Leonie_Watson
JF: What does title do for us
from an accessibility perspective?
... It seems to me that until the browsers do something useful with title...
SF: There is an implementation
issue here that needs to be resolved. The conformance rule is
... Either the spec has to change, or the implementation has to change.
<oedipus> GJR: @title has NO place in graphical/visual rendering space -- if no @alt, no text inline -- only @title available onMouseOver (device dependent and impermenant [only rendered for a short time and then disappears
JF: We have incomplete support for the title attrib, in that it only produces a tooltip in most browsers. For users with cognitive issues, you could argue this is helpful.
<Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say working on @summary for table and issue of hidden versus discoverable metadata
JF: It's not available to all users though, only some users.
MS: It sounds as though there's still some work to be done, but that there are people working on it.
GJR: We've been working via
email. We're waiting for the results of Rich's latest exchange
with Ian. We're waiting for the inter group dynamic to work
itself out. I think there is movement there.
... We're also aggresively pursuing testing canvas with ATs and browsers. We've gotten very good feedback/participation from AT providers.
MS: I don't think there's anything the TF needs to step in on there.
<MikeSmith> scribe: oedipus
MS: pertient people not here --
JF: bug triage team needs to take a new pass after last few weeks of action
MS: nothing with high priority --
a bunch due recently for text alternatives sub-team -- doesn't
need further review
... don't need to reveiw as group
MS: volunteer for 12 May
... Janina will chair next week
... other business?
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