15:00:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
15:00:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/05-html-a11y-irc
15:00:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:00:20 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-a11y
15:00:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
15:00:22 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start now
15:00:23 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:00:23 <trackbot> Date: 05 May 2011
15:01:29 <paulc> paulc has joined #html-a11y
15:03:10 <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:03:11 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has not yet started, MikeSmith
15:03:12 <Zakim> On IRC I see paulc, Zakim, RRSAgent, eric_carlson, mranon, MikeSmith, davidb, [tm], trackbot
15:03:57 <JF> JF has joined #html-a11y
15:04:04 <MikeSmith> Zaki, this will be WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)
15:04:06 <Stevef> Stevef has joined #html-a11y
15:04:14 <MikeSmith> Zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)
15:04:14 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith, I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM already started
15:04:24 <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:04:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see Eric, ??P3, +1.650.468.aabb, ??P34
15:04:38 <JF> zakim, aabb is JF
15:04:38 <Zakim> +JF; got it
15:05:04 <Stevef> zakim, ??P34 is me
15:05:04 <Zakim> +Stevef; got it
15:06:16 <MikeSmith> scribe: Stevef 
15:06:35 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:07:02 <MikeSmith> Topic: Media subteam report
15:07:47 <Zakim> +??P16
15:07:53 <Stevef> MS: stuffed up the passcode, remember to chnage for next time
15:07:59 <oedipus_away> oedipus_away has joined #html-a11y
15:08:00 <mranon> zakim, ??P16 is me
15:08:00 <Zakim> +mranon; got it
15:08:13 <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's making noise?
15:08:16 <paulc> zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
15:08:16 <Zakim> +paulc; got it
15:08:23 <Zakim> MikeSmith, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: JF (22%)
15:08:39 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
15:09:30 <Stevef> JF doing mop up on issue 152 multi track API, essentially resolved, discussion about @king attributes, spec shows 5, but wiki page with other values, at least 3 more and maybe some others
15:10:23 <Stevef> JF: require captions and subtitles, maybe commentary still being discussed, bug filed against this item.
15:10:35 <Zakim> + +44.117.929.aacc
15:10:37 <Stevef> JF: as far as spec, john is unsure
15:11:05 <Leonie_Watson> Leonie_Watson has joined #html-a11y
15:11:11 <Stevef> MS: is there anything that chairs are waiting on?
15:11:13 <Stevef> JF: not that i know
15:11:15 <oedipus> zakim, aacc is Leonie_Watson
15:11:15 <Zakim> +Leonie_Watson; got it
15:11:22 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:11:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/05-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith
15:11:35 <Stevef> JF:2-3 bugs resolved
15:11:59 <MikeSmith> q?
15:12:08 <Stevef> JF: if we can get @king values resolved amicaably before last call should be good
15:12:26 <MikeSmith> Topic: Text subteam
15:12:27 <Stevef> MS: any questions, no move on
15:12:28 <JF> s/@king/@kind
15:13:01 <MikeSmith> scribe: oedipus 
15:13:39 <oedipus> SF: met monday -- discussing validation issues with text alternatives with judy and on list using the [text] subject line tag -- reopening issues -- gathering information on validation issue decisions
15:14:18 <oedipus> SF: ones most worked on at the moment: meta genarator and @title -- also work on role=presentation (would like to revisit)
15:15:05 <oedipus> SF: talk about FIGCAPTION -- trying to reason it out rather than reopen at this time -- agree on for past 2 years -- judy and geoff (WBGH) working on FIGCAPTION and longdesc
15:15:21 <JF> +q
15:15:21 <oedipus> SF: moved formal objection for @alt and @title -- waiting on response
15:15:28 <oedipus> ack JF
15:15:54 <Stevef> oedipus: i can take it back now
15:16:07 <Stevef> q+
15:16:09 <oedipus> JF: also work on meta genarator decision -- fairly verbose discussion currently -- whittle down to 2 parts to present all evidence and in more sumarized fashion
15:16:25 <MikeSmith> ack Stevef 
15:17:08 <oedipus> SF: issue of meta genarator tag a generic thing that was used in past in a LOT of published content -- didn't do to placate validator
15:17:38 <oedipus> JF: 10 years of legacy content with meta generator strings -- must be considered
15:17:53 <oedipus> JF: turning meta genarator string into "magic token" is problem
15:18:12 <oedipus> SF: meta generator exceptions and error rules in HTML5 investigated?
15:18:21 <oedipus> SF: MikeSmith know of any?
15:19:05 <oedipus> SF: have meta generator that is exception to use of @alt -- shuts up validator -- any other errors that tell validator to ignore specific syntax
15:19:31 <oedipus> SF: can imagine if press rules, will be other requests for rules -- why a single exception for @alt
15:19:58 <oedipus> MS: worded in spec not to suppress error, but says alt required unsless there is a meta tag with name="generator" or a @title 
15:19:59 <JF> +q
15:20:07 <oedipus> SF: flagging a conformance error
15:20:24 <oedipus> MS: could perceive that way, but are other things in same class -- not unique in that regard
15:20:43 <oedipus> MS: behavior class performance criteria for others as for generator -
15:20:46 <oedipus> SF: examples?
15:21:42 <oedipus> MS: select element has required attribute and no multiple attr and size of 1 (have to compute, not just value of attr) if all are case, must have option attr that either has a value attr or doesn't have any text content 
15:21:49 <oedipus> MS: other cases: complicated assertions in spec
15:22:02 <oedipus> SF: doesn't have anything to do with setting flag via meta generator
15:22:18 <oedipus> SF: is there a flag one can set for changing error to non-error?
15:22:30 <oedipus> SF: happy to discuss offline with MS
15:22:36 <MikeSmith> ack JF 
15:22:38 <oedipus> MS: happy to discuss offline -- not the only case
15:23:02 <Leonie_Watson> Leonie_Watson has joined #html-a11y
15:23:31 <oedipus> JF: interested in question by SF -- what we have is a meta string -- example you gave VERY tightly focused -- generator string in hand of document and effects ENTIRE document -- for CMS systems when in template can negatively affect entire site
15:23:49 <oedipus> JF: anything in spec that changes performance criteria for entire document
15:23:58 <oedipus> MS: this case is an extreme one, but not the only one
15:24:15 <oedipus> MS: presence of single element with certain attr in document affects every image in document
15:25:25 <oedipus> MS: talked with SF about this offline, but think in terms of validator behavior, don't think many users will expect when put in meta generator element in document that that means they are opting out of checking for @alt on img -- something consciously doing by adding generator? -- that to me is strong argument -- people want conformance checker to alert them to things that might otherwise miss
15:27:15 <oedipus> JF: CMS supports 150 content authors who don't see code ever -- just add content to template -- don't know what meta generator string is -- 3rd party conformance tools have to deal with fact that @alt not needed if meta generator inserted -- allowed because of meta generator string -- assert most authors willl have NO idea they are creating a problem because generator string says confromant
15:27:32 <Leonie_Watson> +1 to JF
15:28:13 <oedipus> MS: conformance checker hat on this doesn't seem to be optimal behaviour -- should persue, but not now -- supportive of trying to see whether this is what other people working on ER tools think is acceptable behavior
15:28:23 <oedipus> MS: talk with henri about it on list good approach
15:28:35 <oedipus> JF: ping RichS from IBM
15:28:48 <oedipus> SF: OpenAjax Alliance
15:29:20 <oedipus> MS: FIGCAPTION -- state of things: had agreement with TF just a few weeks ago --changed -- don't know how or why
15:29:29 <oedipus> i don't remember consensus on FIGCAPTION
15:29:32 <JF> JF wanted to include the wiki page for the @kind values for the multi-track API discussion: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Track_Kinds
15:29:47 <oedipus> SF: misunderstanding in regards what WAI-CG agreed to over 2 years ago -- spec changed
15:30:23 <oedipus> SF: FIGCAPTION supposed to be a caption, not a text alternative -- use cases that are WCAG conformant that a CAPTION is not sufficient textual alternative -- caption has meaning inherited from print
15:31:39 <oedipus> MS: think we need to not operate under assumption that HTML WG chairs are going to delay LC for Text Subteam to complete work and have reviewed by TF -- not prudent assumption -- chairs plan to follow tight schedule for September 2011 publication - 
15:31:53 <oedipus> MS: need to bring up for discussion in TF 
15:32:02 <oedipus> JF: suggest MS discuss this with Judy Brewer
15:32:28 <MikeSmith> q?
15:32:30 <oedipus> MS: anything else on text subteam?
15:33:01 <Stevef> SF: FIGCAPTION supposed to be a caption, not a text alternative -- use cases that are WCAG conformant that a CAPTION is sufficient textual alternative 
15:33:16 <Stevef> <img role="presentation" title="poot">
15:33:31 <oedipus> s/SF: FIGCAPTION supposed to be a caption, not a text alternative -- use cases that are WCAG conformant that a CAPTION is not sufficient textual alternative -- caption has meaning inherited from print/SF: FIGCAPTION supposed to be a caption, not a text alternative -- use cases that are WCAG conformant that a CAPTION is sufficient textual alternative /
15:33:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/05-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:34:38 <oedipus> SF: if no @alt, but @title, role still presentation for element/attr and will NOT be in A11y API or accessible to ATs
15:35:01 <oedipus> SF: allowing that to occur means that it will not work for AT users -- role=presentation means content not available 
15:35:27 <MikeSmith> scribe: Leonie_Watson 
15:35:52 <Leonie_Watson> JF: What does title do for us from an accessibility perspective?
15:36:21 <Leonie_Watson> JF: It seems to me that until the browsers do something useful with title...
15:36:46 <Leonie_Watson> SF: There is an implementation issue here that needs to be resolved. The conformance rule is contradictory.
15:37:15 <oedipus> oedipus has joined #html-a11y
15:37:28 <Leonie_Watson> SF: Either the spec has to change, or the implementation has to change.
15:37:41 <MikeSmith> q?
15:37:41 <oedipus> q+ to say working on @summary for table and issue of hidden versus discoverable metadata
15:38:24 <oedipus> GJR: @title has NO place in graphical/visual rendering space -- if no @alt, no text inline -- only @title available onMouseOver (device dependent)
15:38:30 <Leonie_Watson> JF: We have incomplete support for the title attrib, in that it only produces a tooltip in most browsers. For users with cognitive issues, you could argue this is helpful.
15:38:46 <oedipus> q?
15:38:52 <oedipus> ack oe
15:38:52 <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say working on @summary for table and issue of hidden versus discoverable metadata
15:38:54 <Leonie_Watson> JF: It's not available to all users though, only some users.
15:39:38 <MikeSmith> q?
15:39:39 <Leonie_Watson> MS: It sounds as though there's still some work to be done, but that there are people working on it. 
15:40:08 <Leonie_Watson> Topic: Canvas sub team
15:40:51 <Leonie_Watson> GJR: We've been working via email. We're waiting for the results of Rich's latest exchange with Ian. We're waiting for the inter group dynamic to work itself out. I think there is movement there.
15:41:35 <Leonie_Watson> GJR: We're also aggresively pursuing testing canvas with ATs and browsers. We've gotten very good feedback/participation from AT providers.
15:41:40 <oedipus> s/(device dependent)/(device dependent and impermenant [only rendered for a short time and then disappears/
15:42:32 <Leonie_Watson> MS: I don't think there's anything the TF needs to step in on there.
15:43:38 <MikeSmith> scribe: oedipus 
15:43:47 <Zakim> -Leonie_Watson
15:43:50 <oedipus> TOPIC: ARIA Mapping/Bug Triage
15:44:02 <oedipus> MS: pertient people not here -- 
15:44:20 <oedipus> JF: bug triage team needs to take a new pass after last few weeks of action
15:44:37 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
15:44:48 <oedipus> TOPIC: Review of Open Action Items
15:44:48 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
15:45:15 <oedipus> MS: nothing with high priority -- a bunch due recently for text alternatives sub-team -- doesn't need further review
15:45:28 <oedipus> MS: don't need to reveiw as group
15:45:36 <oedipus> TOPIC: Scribe for Next Week
15:45:45 <oedipus> MS: volunteer for 12 May 2011?
15:46:05 <jongund> jongund has joined #html-a11y
15:46:13 <oedipus> MS: Janina will chair next week
15:46:21 <oedipus> MS: other business?
15:46:27 <oedipus> [ADJOURNED]
15:46:34 <Zakim> -Eric
15:46:44 <Zakim> -mranon
15:46:50 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
15:46:55 <Zakim> -Stevef
15:46:57 <Zakim> -JF
15:47:03 <oedipus> zakim, please part
15:47:03 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Eric, +1.650.468.aaaa, +1.650.468.aabb, JF, Stevef, mranon, paulc, Gregory_Rosmaita, +44.117.929.aacc, Leonie_Watson
15:47:03 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-a11y
15:47:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/05-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:47:43 <oedipus> chair: Mike_Smith
15:48:12 <JF> 10 works, call you then
15:48:30 <oedipus> present- +1.650.468.aaaa, +1.650.468.aabb, +44.117.929.aacc
15:48:56 <oedipus> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0088.html
15:49:18 <oedipus> present+ Kelly_Ford
15:49:30 <oedipus> present- Kelly_Ford
15:49:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/05-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:50:51 <oedipus> regrets+ Janina, Rich, Cynthia_Shelly,Laura_Carlson,Silvia_Pfieffer,Kenny_Johar,Michael_Cooper
15:51:01 <oedipus> zakim, please part
15:51:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/05-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:51:47 <oedipus> s/10 works, call you then//
15:51:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/05-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:53:30 <RRSAgent> I see no action items