Zakim!

<edsu> Zakim: [LC] is edsu

TomB: please ask about the perpetually busy bristol number as well if you can... would rather not call america unnecessarily... i keep waiting for the university administrators to come and grill me about phone bills :P

oh, nvm

<TomB> ww: I'm not getting an operator.

<emma> forget it, Tom

<antoine> Scribe: William

<antoine> Scribenick: ww

antoine: let's start, sorry for the delay and trouble with Zakim...
... the first topic is admin

Admin

antoine: propose to accept the minutes of previous teleconference
... objections?

<bvatant> zakim mute me

RESOLUTION: ACCEPT MINUTES OF PREVIOUS TELECON

scribe: next... the report on the pittsburgh f2f meeting

<antoine> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/22-lld-minutes.html

scribe: i sent around this week the cleaned version of the joint meeting with the W3C ... Architecture....

<TomB> +1 well done re: Joint Meeting minutes! :-)

scribe: propose to also accept these minutes today
... so we can send them around to the wider audience

RESOLUTION: ACCEPT MINUTES OF PITTSBURGH JOINT MEETING

<markva> antoine++

RESOLVED ACCEPT MINUTES AND OUTCOMES OF PITTSBURGH F2F MEETING

scribe: before next item i have a question: is the current agenda complete?
... anyone have something that is not listed, use cases, vocabularies?
... as you have maybe noticed this agenda is really long
... idea is to keep the agenda long so we have a place where relevant stuff is listed...
... they will be at least available for the summary so that everyone is aware
... don't expect we will go through the entire agenda

<Zakim> TomB, you wanted to point out that http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/UseCases#Cluster:_Digital_objects is missing (as pointed out on the list) - am adding to next week's

scribe: anyone noticed anything missing?

TomB: pointed out on the list that cluster on digital objects is missing
... so adding that to next week's agenda

bvatant: what is missing

TomB: digital objects

bvatant: i'm part of that

antoine: ...
... missing cluster, citations
... have name of cluster with wrong names
... tom will take care of updating that point
... anything else?
... ok, if you notice something that is missing, please send a mail before the next teleconference
... moving on to the next topic

USE CASES AND CASE STUDIES

UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: as opposed to what is listed in the agenda we have six clusters and not five
... was some discussion on the plans of the digital objects cluster team, so maybe you want to say something here to explain a bit?

markva: which tasks do we have? the first would be to consider which UCs actually belong to our cluster... might be some overlap with the citation cluster?
... main thing is to come to a more structured or homogenized sdescription of the UCs
... we have really a lot of UCs
... can probably not just append them to some part of our report
... goals are reported very differently
... but are recurring themes
... what i did is try in email to the list just like the topics and requirements that we did before
... try to come up with a list of a code and description for the goal
... see if we can replace the goal text with these goal codes
... meeting yesterday with people from digital object cluster team
... thought it would be useful to get your opinion of that and see if we can adopt that methodology for other clusters...

<antoine>

antoine: at first glance it seems to me that these concerns are really right to the point
... i would say that perhaps it's a bit premature to discuss that today if the other clusters have not really thought about the work they have to do on their own use case
... but we should really have a discussion very soon because i see clearly the problems

markva: would be nice if would respond on the list...

emma: suggest if you want to curate the goals of all the use case clusters, it would be nice to havea wiki page... start with the goals that markva's cluster has identified
... so we only have one page
... not many pages

antoine: wouldn't that cause lots of duplication

markva: i think its the same thing as the requirements and topics... need a place to list them , discuss , curate... i think its very handy

emma: also wondering how much these goals overlap with requirements
... there is wiki page with requirements... almost empty
... if you have the goals... what would be the requirements?

markva: maybe the goals are a good place to start... if we get that coherently than we can move on to the dimensions and requirements
... goals are hte most basic thing that use cases can accomplish
... requirements can be something more detailed

antoine: if the digital object cluster team is happy to start such a goal place then you are welcome to start it
... we can see if we find the same things with the other clusters
... or at least on a similar level, i could see the goals being different

AlexanderH: actually antoie i think you are right
... they should be different

<edsu> markva's email http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Nov/0003.html

AlexanderH: but actually much of the goals are detailed
... if you want to keep the detailed goals the way they are i'm not sure it makes sense

markva: that's a good point, what i did, the iinitial list we have now is a refelection of the goals people have put into the use cacses
... that's really all it is
... if it's too detailed we need to make up our mind what is a goal and what is too detailed
... at least this discussion needs to be initiated

antoine: ok, let's start the discussion in the coming days
... that's for the methodological side of it
... we also have to be more concrete and think of shepherds or rapporteurs to ...
... have action on the agenda for people not at the F2F to volunteer to shepherd

<antoine> ACTION: People who didn't attend the face-to-face should volunteer to shepherd a new use case. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-lld-minutes.html#action06] [CONTINUES]

antoine: if we go to list of use cases

<antoine>

antoine: jodi has indicated for the individual use cases if they are lacking a shepherd or not
... turns out we have a bit more than the seven that are listed as orphaned on the agenda

<AlexanderH> one hint I think the detailed goals should be kept this way and not be generalized

antoine: so really if people can volunteer to take care of them that will be really welcome

<jodi> there are 10 orphaned

antoine: need to sort that really soon

<AlexanderH> not like scribed

antoine: if there are cases that are not in clusters we might miss something really important

TomB: would be good if people who could not attend the F2F could volunteer to take care of the remaining cases because otherwise the work will fall disproportionately on the people who were able to attend
... would be good to distribute that a little bit better

antoine: actually i'm looking at hte list of the cases and the ones for which jodi indicated they were lacking shepherds and there are some that are already clustered and i'm a bit suprised

emma: just that some of the use cases that didnt have a rapporteur were adopted
... wasn't necessarily presented

antoine: for example, use case data in Use Case Linked Data and legacy library applications
... had a small presentation on that was it by gordon?

emma: authorclaim

antoine: the next one that is orphaned is the... Archipel project...

marcia are you around can you take care of this use case?

marcia: what should we do?

antoine: in your case just be prepared to act as the shepherd for that use case
... the curators of the cluster may as kyou some qustions
... in your specific case it would be nice if you could send the presentation that you showed me to the list
... and then the other use cases that have no shepherd are in the not yet cluster

<antoine> ACTION: Karen and Emma to curate archive cluster for end of december [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action02]

antoine: ok so then we have all the actions on people to curate clusters....

<antoine> --CONTINUES

<scribe> --CONTINUES

<antoine> ACTION: Kai and Ed to curate citations cluster for end of december [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action03] [CONTINUES]

antoine: i think you said you were in that one as well (that one digital objects cluster)

bvatant: i'm not aware of that....

antoine: i think i've seen your name in irc channel

<antoine> ACTION: Mark (and Jodi and Asaf) to curate digital objects cluster for end of december [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action04] [CONTINUES]

bvatant: i think this was a mistake of the scribe

<emma> People who didn't attend the F2F should volunteer to help curate the clusters

<antoine> ACTION: Gordon and Martin to curate bibliographic data cluster for end of december [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action05] [CONTINUES]

<antoine> ACTION: Jeff and Alexander to curate authority data cluster for end of december [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action06] [CONTINUES] [CONTINUES]

<antoine> ACTION: Antoine and Michael to curate vocabulary alignment cluster for end of december [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action07] [CONTINUES]

antoine: then we have an action of people who were not at the F2F to volunteer to join a cluster

<antoine> ACTION: People who were not at the face-to-face meeting volunteer to join a cluster [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-lld-minutes.html#action03] [CONTINUES]

antoine: not to have this continuing for a long time
... maybe having one more week in which the people may volunteer
... otherwise we have an issue with the curators knowing if they are alone or if someone will join after a while
... unless someone sees it differently, would suggest to close the action next week

emma: suggest to send around an email so that people not on the telecon will know they have to do something

antoine: ok i will send something closer to the call
... anyone have something to add to the use case topic before we moveon?

TOPICS

antoine: the first item to discuss is how we go forward with the topics and how we organise them into categories
... first way is to use the wiki category system to connect use cases to topics
... second proposal by bvatant to create rdf description of topics
... next proposal have page with topics as subtitles

jodi: i don't think we really talked about it any further

<emma> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Category:LLD

emma: i created something on the wiki just to show how it will look like, so i started to aggregate the categories and subcategories
... here is what you get for a group of topics that are LLD
... one page per subcategory
... if you look at....
... you can see you have a description of the topic
... probably a good starting point if you want toe elaborate
... copy and paste these pieces of text into the final report
... i think that's a useful way to go forward

antoine: that was really some fleshing out of what jodi has proposed

TomB: i just edited one of the category pages that emma set up
... i think the issue here is, how do we get from an analysis of the parts
... to a complete report
... and the crux of the question is whether we want to keep everything in one document
... editing sections of one big document
... or easier to have many smaller documents
... and consolidate them later on

<jodi> with Transclusion, we could aggregate the individual pages: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Transclusion

TomB: initially i was in favour of consolidated document
... but i see the advantages of smaller files for curators

<emma> ww: in favor of the latter

<emma> ... easier to build a big documents from small ones

<rsinger> +1

<Marcia> Are topics also have curators?

jodi: actually you might have the solution
... talking about transclusion
... transclusion is a way of pulling small parts into a larger document
... without copy and paste
... can make a larger document by pulling together with transclusion

transclusion++

<emma> jodi+

<TomB> +1 for smaller documents using transclusion

<emma> not tested

antoine: that does make sense... question is whether this stuff is activated in our wiki

jodi: in media wiki it is activated by default
... we should try it but i think so

antoine: ok... could anyone have a try just to check?
... if that works than that's clearly a point for the individual page solution to be the preferred one
... tom or emma or jodi could you make a small test because you have started editing these pages?

jodi: ok, i can take a look

<bvatant> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Transclusion

antoine: thank you

TomB: shoudl we take an action for jodi, having a proof of concept page that uses transclusion
... that uses a lot of smaller pages... having that on the agenda for the next call would help us move forward

<scribe> ACTION: Jodi to make a proof of concept transclusion page for next week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-lld-minutes.html#action09]

antoine: was also bvatant 's proposition of owl and rdf

bvatant: actually i had a very sketchy model of what could be done about the current content, topics, use cases and so on...
... i see that things have evolved quite a lot since the f2f
... if this is interesting i have to revisit it on the basis of how things are now organised
... i have nothing very interesting to show right now
... but if people think its interesting to go this way
... the idea is to have a model of what we are working on...
... as rdf data... eating your own dog food
... but maybe the way jodi proposes is nmore efficient
... i can continue the action, but don't expect something very efficient in the week to come

<edsu> bvatant: i'm not either :-)

bvatant: i have to catch up on everything that happened on the f2f and i'm not yet there

<edsu> bvatant: and i was there! :-)

<Zakim> TomB, you wanted to suggest that we focus on producing the document

TomB: what are our requirements here... i think our requirements is really to get the meeting notes to a draft of the report
... i think its an interesting idea to use rdf descriptions, but i'm not sure what requirement that's meeting
... not sure that would really help us move towards a completed report
... unless the rdf would help us create interesting visualisations that we could use in the report
... otherwise i suggest we mmove on getting a rough draft ideally beforethe holidays

<Zakim> antoine, you wanted to link to Paul's tool

antoine: to think about mentioning, TomB was talking about visualisation
... wondering if bvatant 's idea of rdf description would
... visualisation of clusters and vocabularies
... perhaps this could be related to the topic as well
... i would support what TomB said, but keep an eye on this idea of bvatant 's and try to relate them

bvatant: to go along with what TomB said to get on with the taks at hand and the bandwidth of everybody
... doesn't seem like a priority task
... unless it seems like it is useful for a visualisation purposes
... maybe when the overall document structure is more settled
... will be easier to produce

<Zakim> TomB, you wanted to ask if Paul's tool is in the agenda - maybe Ed can comment?

TomB: occurs to me that paul's tool...
... is it in the agenda?

antoine: it is in the vocabulary section

<antoine>

antoine: an item to report on exactly this
... perhaps we can jump to that specific item right now if it's really close to the issue on this rdf discription
... edsu do you have something to say?

edsu: not right now

antoine: ok we'll keep an eye and come back to it

edsu: rdf description of what?

antoine: bvatant is proposing that we create and rdf description of the topics... i think htis would be more or less related to what paul has done

edsu: what purpose would it serve?
... other than eating our own tasteless dog food

antoine: i think everyone agreed it might be a low priority item...
... have a mapping, more dynamic...
... not discuss it right now but ckeep it in mind for the future
... something that might be a bit more urgent...

<Zakim> TomB, you wanted to ask Ed how the tool works

TomB: just wanted to ask edsu something
... how does paul's tool work?
... what's behind that?
... is it something that can generate other visualisations that might be useful for the report?
... what's your sense of the usefulness or how we can use the tool that paul put together

edsu: my understanding is he bascically scraped to wiki
... using regexps
... to get the data out into another form which he put into a database

<antoine>

<edsu> https://github.com/paulwalk/lldvis/tree/master/test/fixtures/

edsu: and put the web app on top of it

<digikim> ooops...

edsu: those are the database fixtures

<digikim> I didn't notice that the start time had changed

edsu: the data he scraped out saved it off into these files
... i don't know ho... you'd have to ask paul if the routines he wrote... are things that can be run routinely or not?

TomB: it's available on github so in principle we could use this if we saw a need to extend it

<digikim> emma: ok, thanks

edsu: it's on github... he actually made it run somewhere on the web...
... he found it useful to grapple with.. because he's new to the group... to get an idea of the use cases etc.
... used as a tool for himself to try to understand

antoine: keep in agenda... come back to it a bt later

Marcia: i want to get back to the topics pages that emma created

<Zakim> Back, you wanted to the topics: what should be included in the topic pages Emma created? Who will contribute? Will they be curated?

Marcia: i wonder what should be in each subtopic
... who will contribute...
... top the topics, the sub-pages

antoine: first the fact that the topics are related to the use cases would be exteremely informative
... there's no doubt about that
... that's how the topic page started
... w.r.t. the content of the page, the description, the one liners could also be put there

emma: wanted to make that a little clearere
... when we're curating the use cases clusters we can add it to the topic by using two square brackets
... and that will add it to the topic page

<edsu> sorry, i had the wrong url for the data that paul scraped from the wiki: https://github.com/paulwalk/lldvis/blob/master/db/seeds.rb

emma: and look in the minutes for more detail

antoine: i think we have to wrap it very shortly, so keep this in the agenda for next time...
... just have a quick rush on the actions
... to check whether there is anything specific to say on that

<rsinger> :)

<rayd> Admin topic ...... next Thursday is a holiday in the US

antoine: other business?

<rsinger> ?

(continue all other actions)

<rsinger> next thursday?

antoine: if noone has any other comment....
... thank you everyone for attending

ADJOURNED

<markva> bye!

<rsinger> thanks!

<antoine> ACTION: GordonD and antoine to study use cases that relate to vocabulary merging use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action01] [CONTINUES]

<antoine> ACTION: Jeff to review the UK eGovernment document on identifiers. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action03] [CONTINUES]

<antoine> ACTION: Alex, Jeff, Martin, MichaelP elaborate on general purpose IT architecture for dealing with linked data with caching feature [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action04] [CONTINUES]

<antoine> ACTION: Emma and Antoine to create use case DATA.SEARCH-OPTIMIZATION [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action06] [CONTINUES]

<antoine> ACTION: for each use case champion: on the Vocabularies page, link to each URL use case that uses it [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/mIncubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action01] [CONTINUES]

<antoine> ACTION: Ross to create a page with LLD data sets on the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/07-lld-minutes.html#action11] [DONE]

<antoine> --> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/Library_data_in_Semantic_Web_formats

<antoine> ACTION: ww to present on how to use CKAN [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-lld-minutes.html#action01] [CONTINUES]

<antoine> ACTION: on everyone to update the Events page (http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/LLD/Events) on the wiki regularly [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action05] [CONTINUES]

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135  of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/Antoin/Antoine/
Succeeded: s/F2F/JOINT MEETING/
Succeeded: s/digital clusters/digital object cluster/
Succeeded: s/???/Use Case Linked Data and legacy library applications/
Succeeded: s/XXX/Archipel/
Succeeded: s/bvatant/antoine/
Succeeded: s/scrapted/scraped/
Found Scribe: William
Found ScribeNick: ww
Present: jeff markva emma Ray Marcia Antoine TomB Pmurray jar edsu AlexanderH Bernard jodi ww rsinger
Regrets: karen gordon felix tod Guenther Joachim Kai
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Nov/0008.html
Got date from IRC log name: 04 Nov 2010
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-lld-minutes.html

WARNING: No person found for ACTION item: on everyone to update the events page (http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/lld/events) on the wiki regularly [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action05]

People with action items: alex alexander antoine asaf ed emma for gordon gordond jeff jodi kai karen mark martin michael people ww