User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

28 Oct 2010

See also: IRC log


Greg, Jan, jallan, Jeanne, MarkH, Kim_Patch
kford, GRosmaita


<trackbot> Date: 28 October 2010

Review completed action items

<JAllan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0032.html

<JAllan> ACTION-41 [1]: Draft a proposal for printing including the 3 concepts --do not lose information, honor author print css, scale font size of print

3.10.x Print Viewport (Level AA)

When the content of any viewport is rendered to a print viewport

(e.g., physical piece of paper) (Level AA):

(a) all visual information present in the originating viewport is retained, and

(b) authored CSS print properties are honored, and

(c) the user has the option to scale and reflow the original content

to maintain readability of content that would otherwise exceed the

physical print page dimensions if rendered exactly as displayed on


Intent of Success Criterion 3.10.x:

When a user chooses to render Web content to a print viewport, there

should be no loss of visual information in the printed rendering. If

the author specifies CSS Print properties for the content, those

properties will be honored when the content is rendered to the printed

page. The user may increase the font size of Web content to improve

readability and has the option to scale and reflow the content on the

resulting printed page.

Examples of Success Criterion 3.10.x :

A user with low vision is reading an online newspaper with the

assistance of a screen magnifier and wishes to make a print copy of an

article so that they may continue reading while on the commuter train.

The user selects the large print option on their browser's print

dialog to create an easy to read print version. The resulting print

version uses increases the default font size to 16pts and reflows the

content so that it fits the page width.

<JAllan> gl: need clarification. example, in the print dialog, the user has a large print dialog. can't expect the UA to have a setting for every accessibility need, now we have font family, css, etc.

<JAllan> scribe: Greg

Greg questions the example saying the Print dialog would have a size option, but not sure it's reasonable to have the print dialog have every accessibility option that is available in normal views.

Jan points out that the examples uses pt size, while usually it's specified in relative sizes (e.g. "larger").

Jan, A says all information in originating viewport is retained, but layout is visual information, and if scaling and reflowing changes that, is that contradicting the SC?

Jim points out that often tables and the like are truncated at the edge of the page.

Mark admits that scaling and reflow may not work in all cases, or may require printing across multiple pages.

Jan: did the work on standardizing "reflowable content" ever get done?

<jeanne> thank you for completing this action item, Mark. It is good to have a loose end tied up.

Jan suggests introducing here the concept of reflowable vs. non-reflowable content, the latter taking up as many pages as necessary.

<JAllan> +1 to Jan

Kim: printing is very important for people with RSI, who often prefer to read and edit on paper.

<JAllan> " reflowable content, meaning that the text display can be optimized for the particular display device. " from www.msrinfotech.com/services.html

Greg: In our discussion, though, we're talking about not only for different display devices but also for different user preferences (e.g. font size).

<JAllan> definition: reflowable text

<JAllan> In a word processor, text editor or online publishing system, the ability to automatically wrap words in a document to the next line as the user changes the window size and thereby relocates the right margin of the page. http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/reflowable+text

Greg: wonders if print output is one case of a more general situation of reformatting output for another device, such as "burning" to a static recording of synthesized speech.

Kim: users often have to do a lot of work on the document to get it to print correctly, which is more problem for users with RSI.

General agreement to add the new SC, with details to be ironed out later.

Greg: Mark, consider that often print style sheets intentionally and appropriately hide some information that isn't appropriate in print (e.g. highlights of links, ads, background bitmaps). That conflicts with (a) in the draft SC.

Jan: Some visual information that is always lost in print is video. Questions whether (a) is appropriate and necessary at all.

Jim: Mark will work on it offline.

<JAllan> Action-460 jallan to discuss EVD2 & 3 - add to IER to 4.9 SC or create new SC, also review CC2,3,4

<JAllan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0034.html

Jim: Reviewed media accessibility document to see if anything needs to be added to UAAG.

Greg: Mark and Jim, with Greg's help for a bit, drafted proposal for the SC on track manipulation.

<JAllan> Proposal: add ED information to 4.9.8 track manipulation - Intent/Example/Resources add to IER, use case - author created the ED as a separate track, then user can select the ED track. 4.9.8 Track Enable/Disable of Time-Based Media: During time-based media playback, the user can determine which tracks are available and select or deselect tracks. These selections may override global default...

<JAllan> ...settings for captions, audio descriptions, etc. Intent: Authors are able to create time-based media with video (perhaps multiple video tracks), multiple audio tracks ( e.g. different languages, video description, extended video description), and multiple caption tracks (e.g. different languages, text of video description, text of extended video description). Users should be able to...

<JAllan> ...identify and select from the available tracks. The user may also change their selections. The user agent must provide a mechanism to list the available author supplied tracks and allow the user to select which to play. Examples: Jose, a student with a hearing disability, sometimes misses parts of the dialog in movies because of the sound level or background noise. He can select the...

<JAllan> ...caption track to read the dialog and not miss anything. Lin, who is blind, cannot see all of the action in suspense movies. She can select the video description track in addition to the audio track, to hear the action and scenes described during the movie and not miss out on the suspense. Mary has an learning and attention problem. She needs more elaborate descriptions of what is...

<JAllan> ...happening in a movie of a science demonstration. The author provided extended descriptions for specific concepts. When Mary selects the extended descriptions the video pauses, while extra audio information about the concept is presented. The author also provided a caption track to go along with the extended descriptions so Mary can read along with the audio and focus on reading and...

<JAllan> ...listening to the content. Resources: HTML 5 Video Element http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/video.html#video

Greg: Minor, in Jose change "select the caption track to read the dialog" to "select the caption track to be displayed so that he can read the dialog".
... To example might add parentheticals with the technical terms such as "(closed captions)" and "(video descriptions)".

Jan: In the Mary example, clarify that the author-provided extended captions includes pauses, rather than the video player doing the pausing.

Jim: the extended video descriptions feature in the media requirements document was considered for UAAG, but we decided it was inappropriate to require or recommend it until a standard exists and/or it is implemented in a few user agents.

Kim: Remember there may be extensions that implement a feature even if it's not built into any user agents directly.

<Jan> Idea: Mary has a learning and attention problem. She needs more elaborate descriptions of what is happening in a movie of a science demonstration. Mary selects the author-supplied extended description audio track for which the video pauses for extended descriptions of specific concepts. Mary also selects the author-supplied extended description caption track to go along with the extended...

<Jan> ...description audio track so that she can read along with the audio and focus on reading and listening to the content.

Greg: using extensions is true in general, but in this particular case it's less appropriate because it really requires a new standard for captions/video description or new features in such a standard.

Discussion of how to get ideas to students or volunteers who might create user agent extensions to implement features we need to see tried.

Jeanne: it is likely that in the near future an official process for that will exist.

Kim: for our group to keep track of things as issues it could be easier to pull them out when we talk with potential implementers.

<JAllan> Action-460 part 2 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0035.html

<JAllan> Proposal NEW SC

<JAllan> 4.9.12 Persistence of time-based media content. The UA should provide

<JAllan> a mechanism to allow time-based content to persist beyond the

<JAllan> author-specified duration. (AA or AAA)

<JAllan> Intent of Success Criterion 4.9.12:

<JAllan> During playback of time-based media, some content, such as captions

<JAllan> or hyperlinked hotspots, may appear and disappear along the authored

<JAllan> timeline. Users, for example those with visual or learning

<JAllan> disabilities, may require additional time to read or interact with the

<JAllan> content which exceeds the authored presentation time. The UA should

<JAllan> provide a mechanism that allows the user extend the presentation

<JAllan> duration of time-based content so that it persists beyond the authored

<JAllan> time interval.

<JAllan> notes for examples

<JAllan> gap-less. authored timeline - caption appears from 1-3 seconds,

<JAllan> another caption does not appear until 4 seconds. normally, the caption

<JAllan> would disappear for one second. The user can specify through some

<JAllan> setting that the caption stays on the screen until the next caption

<JAllan> replaces it.

<JAllan> ex 1 gapless captions, ex 2 transient hyperlinks, ex 3 scrolling

<JAllan> transcript ex 4, paused caption presentation

<JAllan> 2. hyperlinks would persist until next caption (gapless) to give time

<JAllan> to click hyperlink allowing the user as much time as they need to read

<JAllan> a screen of captions, before they manually unpause.

Jan: concerned that lots of things can be time-based media content with durations, so this may be too broad, beyond captions to nearly all video or audio content.

<JAllan> jr: the author can provide an end time for a caption (erasure). and mark up a blank in the caption presentation. the user should be able to over-ride the marked up gap creating a gapless caption presentation.

Jim: Should we make this specific to captions? Greg: Also textual video description. Jan: Those should be covered as captions for the video description track. Greg: It might be as text only, for routing to synthesizer or braille display, without an actual audio track.

Jan: Not convinced there is need for this SC. Could imagine two ways for captions and other synchronized accessibility information can be handled: (a) baked in, nearly invisible to user agent, or (b) content format that specifies captions with on/off duration etc. In the latter case you'd tell UA how to display the info, then it falls under our "follow specifications" SC.

<JAllan> gl: the point of this SC, is to allow the user to override the author markup

<JAllan> ... for example, having a scrolling list of the captions.

Greg: This is a case where we want the user to be able to override the "implement as spec'd" because when the author said caption goes away after a second, the user can say they want for example a scrolling list so they can take longer to read it.

In fact, we probably need to modify 1.4.1 "Render content according to specification" to explicitly exempt cases where user preferences request overriding aspects.

<JAllan> issue: for 1.4.1 "Render content according to specification" to explicitly exempt cases where user preferences request overriding aspects.

<trackbot> Created ISSUE-75 - For 1.4.1 "Render content according to specification" to explicitly exempt cases where user preferences request overriding aspects. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/75/edit .

Jan: we can add a note to 1.4.1 or 1.4 to acknowledge the exceptions for user preferences.

Issues (resolving)

<JAllan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010OctDec/0028.html

Jim: Went through the open issues with a blunt tool and cut the number by half, and sent a message to the group about it. Grouped together editorial ones, definition ones, etc. Eight possible new success criteria.

Jeanne is working on the editorial ones this week.

Kim: Kim and Jeanne are working on the glossary, and almost done.

Jim: Looking for volunteers to take these items.
... Recommend doing this on the list, as it would take too long to do it on phone calls.

Kim: Kim and Jeanne will add the new definition issues to their pass over the glossary.

Jim: Jim will take a pass at the new SCs.

<JAllan> ACTION: jim to review new SC issues [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-ua-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-462 - Review new SC issues [on Jim Allan - due 2010-11-04].

Mark: Will try to look at the Search issues.

<JAllan> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/open

<JAllan> add issue-49 to action-462

Jim: ISSUE-49 is somewhat print related, so asked Mark to include it as well.
... Would appreciate help with the new SCs.
... Everyone please pick one of your open action items and do it this week.
... If we want to get to last call we have to tie up a lot of loose ends. We'll talk next week, assign sections to different people.
... Will send email clarifying the start and end times of the face-to-face teleconference on 11/9 and 11/10.

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: jim to review new SC issues [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-ua-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.135 (CVS log)
$Date: 2010/10/28 18:33:17 $

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135  of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/Yan/Jan/
Found Scribe: Greg
Inferring ScribeNick: Greg
Default Present: Greg, Jan, jallan, Jeanne, MarkH, Kim_Patch
Present: Greg Jan jallan Jeanne MarkH Kim_Patch
Regrets: kford GRosmaita
Found Date: 28 Oct 2010
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-ua-minutes.html
People with action items: jim

WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.

[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]