W3C

- DRAFT -

CSS-SVG Task Force Teleconference

27 Sep 2010

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
ed, +1.858.655.aaaa, plinss, smfr, dino, +1.919.824.aabb, dbaron, shepazu
Regrets
Chair
SV_MEETING_CHAIR
Scribe
smfr

Contents


<ed> trackbot, start telcon

<trackbot> Date: 27 September 2010

<ed> Zakim: room for 8?

Zakim: Apple is smfr and dino

i confused it

<dbaron> I'm getting "this passcode is not valid"

<dbaron> then again, I think Zakim doesn't like the tone dialing from either my cellphone or office phone anymore

<plinss> sorry, not available, having to step away from the phone due to personal issues going on...

<scribe> scribenick: smfr

<ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0089.html

smfr: we support the element proposal, in general
... we don't like the fact that the element has to be visible, forcing overflow:hidden hacks

ed: opera is also interested

dbaron: you really want a url reference

<dbaron> ... for some things

smfr: we see this as a way to get away from our -webkit-box-reflect property

<dbaron> but element() can be useful for things like reflectiions of content in the document

smfr: tabatkins posted the message (url above), but I haven't seen a spec

doug: what is the next step? what spec would this go into?

smfr: one issue is that it has a CSS property and some API
... i don't really like the API

doug: maybe use a selector rather than an ID?

dino: what's the use case for the API?

smfr: i think we need roc on a call to delve into this

doug: should someone take an action to work on the spec for this, and gather feedback

dbaron: i can ask roc (he's away right now)

<scribe> ACTION: dbaron to get roc onto the next call [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - dbaron

<scribe> ACTION: david baron to get roc onto the next call [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-14 - Baron to get roc onto the next call [on David Singer - due 2010-10-04].

arg

next topic

SVG/CSS unitless values

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0005.html

SVG/CSS unitless values

doug: css is going to defining more in user units (like svg uses px, but they are really just user units)
... not necessarily counter-intuitive to user if the values are unitless

dbaron: there are existing ares in css where parsing disambiguation requires the ability to distinguish lengths and numbers
... that's a big motivation in css to not change this
... gecko requires units according to css; it only allows unitless numbers for longhand properties in quirks mode

<ed> a good summary in this thread by chris lilley: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0011.html

dbaron: the other motivation in css is that in many areas pixel units are frowned upon
... so making them the default would encourage bad practice

plinss: css wg has been talking about dropping the requirements for units this back in 1998

doug: when is it the wrong thing to do? browsers now do scaling/magnify etc
... are the old assumptions still valid?

plinss: i don't see any reason why they don't hold
... css-wg has even been talking about what pixel units are

ed: esp with css transforms etc.

doug: pixel is no longer what css intended
... less to do with pixels on a device, but it has more general applicability than before

plinss: we're trying to make it a normal length unit, since it has less association with device pixels than in the past

doug: it should be divorced from the device pixel (esp with transforms), but that makes it more realistic

plinss: but then px has no more significance than inch etc

doug: lots of people think in px

[doug drops out]

dino: we can't make a decision here: css-wg owns the decision

ed: still need to get feedback from public-fx to css-wg

CSS border and background-color on the <svg> element

<ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0053.html

<ed> the svg wg discussed it at the f2f,minutes here: http://www.w3.org/2010/09/07-svg-minutes.html#item04

doug: svg-wg looked into it, discussed at the F2F
... border adds geometry, so svg-wg thought it was not applicable
... allowing background to apply to root svg should may be a special case

<dbaron> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3E%0A%0Asvg%20%7B%20width%3A%20100px%3B%20height%3A%20100px%3B%20background%3A%20yellow%3B%20border%3A%20medium%20solid%20fuchsia%20%7D%0A%0A%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%3Csvg%20viewBox%3D%220%200%20100%20100%22%3E%0A%20%20%3Ccircle%20cx%3D%2250%22%20cy%3D%2250%22%20r%3D%2250%22%20fill%3D%22green%22%20%2F%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E

dbaron: boundary between the formatting models should be at the...

?

dbaron: border could change how much space you have available, but so do other things

doug: that's not true now: rectangle around the SVG would not add to the size of the SVG

dbaron: the case here is svg in some other content

<dbaron> (I thought)

doug: we have to define it for all the cases, including standalone svg
... no problem with border and background on inline svg

dbaron: an inline svg to the CSS model is a replaced element

<dbaron> s/at the .../at the content box/

<dbaron> http://schepers.cc/css-in-svg

doug: most important is that they are defined, not necessarily how they are defined
... other people felt that other non-root svg elements should not have these properties apply
... in svg content, if you want to highlight something, you may want to change the background or make an outline

you currently have do this through script by DOM manipulation

it would be a lot nicer by applying css properties

ed: you could some of that by CSS hover and more SVG content e.g another shape

dbaron: I think you can have the SVG content in the tree the whole time, and change the fill

doug: but then you're cluttering the DOM
... we see how easy this in with CSS in HTML; it's much harder in SVG
... would like a grand unification of SVG and CSS

smfr: that's a larger topic than the one on the agenda, but could be useful

doug: i'd be fine with the svg being a special case, and defining it as has been proposed

ed: is that for the SVG integration spec, or something in this group?

doug: if things overlap with other specs, then they go into the SVG Integration Spec
... maybe the SVG Integration Spec should be a product of public-fx
... SVG Integration Spec intends to fill the gaps between specs

ed: does CSS define how borders are applied to replaced elements like the SVG root element?

doug: the implementations are fairly consistent, but the behavior (for reference content) is not the one most people expect
... inline SVG behavior is fine
... opened an issue for SVG2 to make it easier to make autoscaling content
... rather than width/height 100%, you could say that the document uses autoscaling

dougt to bring up in 2 weeks

ed: is doug going to put something in the integration spec

doug: css folks should email public-fx

<scribe> ACTION: doug to summarize the options for CSS applying to the SVG root before the next telecon [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-15 - Summarize the options for CSS applying to the SVG root before the next telecon [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-10-04].

'pointer-events' and (event) transparency

http://www.w3.org/2010/09/07-svg-minutes.html#item05

ed: some differences between implementations in how pointer-events: auto behaves
... conclusion from SVG F2F: if you have inline SVG, clicks in transparent areas go through to the underlying content as the default behavior
... most implementations do this
... Firefox was the notable exception

dbaron: we're treating the root svg element like a replaced element

<ed> Example: http://www.schepers.cc/svg/blendups/overlay/test/overlap.xhtml

doug: most authors would expect events to go through to the html
... it should go into the integration spec

dbaron: is the intent that SVG behaves differently that the SVG root element is different?

doug: yes

ed: is pointer-events in HTML part of any spec?

what-wg discussion is here: http://www.mail-archive.com/whatwg@lists.whatwg.org/msg22699.html

doug: i don't think it belongs in the SVG Integration spec. it belongs somewhere else
... i'm interested in speccing this out

<scribe> ACTION: doug to draw up a pointer-events spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-16 - Draw up a pointer-events spec [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-10-04].

ed: anything else for today?

[no response]

dino drew up this: http://webkit.org/specs/PointerEventsProperty.html

adjourned

ed: do you take care of posting the minutes?

<ed> smfr: sure

thanks

<ed> trackbot, end telcon

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: david baron to get roc onto the next call [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: dbaron to get roc onto the next call [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: doug to draw up a pointer-events spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: doug to summarize the options for CSS applying to the SVG root before the next telecon [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action03]
 
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.135 (CVS log)
$Date: 2010/09/27 20:57:11 $

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This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135  of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20  
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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

FAILED: s/at the .../at the content box/
Succeeded: s/more CSS/more SVG content e.g another shape/
Succeeded: s/exect/expect/
Found ScribeNick: smfr
Inferring Scribes: smfr
Default Present: ed, +1.858.655.aaaa, plinss, smfr, dino, +1.919.824.aabb, dbaron, shepazu
Present: ed +1.858.655.aaaa plinss smfr dino +1.919.824.aabb dbaron shepazu
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0089.html

WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Found Date: 27 Sep 2010
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html
People with action items: baron david dbaron doug

WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
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