19:56:08 RRSAgent has joined #fx 19:56:08 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-irc 19:56:15 zakim, passcode? 19:56:15 sorry, plinss, I don't know what conference this is 19:56:24 zakim, this will be fx 19:56:24 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, plinss 19:56:25 trackbot, start telcon 19:56:27 RRSAgent, make logs world 19:56:29 Zakim, this will be 3983 19:56:29 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 19:56:30 Meeting: CSS-SVG Task Force Teleconference 19:56:30 Date: 27 September 2010 19:56:58 Zakim: room for 8? 19:57:39 zakim, room for 8? 19:57:41 ok, plinss; conference Team_(fx)19:57Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 60 minutes until 2057Z 19:58:43 Team_(fx)19:57Z has now started 19:58:50 +??P0 19:58:56 Zakim, ??P0 is me 19:58:56 +ed; got it 19:58:57 + +1.858.655.aaaa 19:59:01 +smfr 19:59:05 zakim, aaaa is me 19:59:05 +plinss; got it 19:59:20 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0089.html 20:02:43 dbaron has joined #fx 20:02:51 -smfr 20:03:02 +[Apple] 20:03:20 Zakim: Apple is smfr and dino 20:03:37 Zakim, Apple is smfr and dino 20:03:37 I don't understand 'Apple is smfr and dino', smfr 20:03:42 Zakim, Apple is smfr, dino 20:03:42 I don't understand 'Apple is smfr, dino', smfr 20:03:46 Zakim, Apple is smfr 20:03:46 +smfr; got it 20:03:51 Zakim, Apple is also dino 20:03:53 I don't understand 'Apple is also dino', smfr 20:03:56 Zakim, Apple is dino 20:03:56 sorry, smfr, I do not recognize a party named 'Apple' 20:03:59 Zakim, Apple has smfr and dino 20:03:59 sorry, dbaron, I do not recognize a party named 'Apple' 20:04:10 i confused it 20:04:15 Zakim, smfr is [Apple] 20:04:15 +[Apple]; got it 20:04:20 Zakim, [Apple] has smfr and dino 20:04:20 +smfr, dino; got it 20:04:35 I'm getting "this passcode is not valid" 20:04:53 then again, I think Zakim doesn't like the tone dialing from either my cellphone or office phone anymore 20:04:58 + +1.919.824.aabb 20:05:32 +[Mozilla] 20:05:59 Zakim, pick a victim? 20:05:59 I don't understand your question, ed. 20:06:07 Zakim, pick a victim 20:06:08 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose plinss 20:06:47 sorry, not available, having to step away from the phone due to personal issues going on... 20:06:51 Zakim, pick a victim 20:06:51 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose smfr 20:06:57 scribenick: smfr 20:07:06 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0089.html 20:08:21 smfr: we support the element proposal, in general 20:08:40 smfr: we don't like the fact that the element has to be visible, forcing overflow:hidden hacks 20:09:40 ed: opera is also interested 20:09:54 dbaron: you really want a url reference 20:10:06 ... for some things 20:10:25 smfr: we see this as a way to get away from our -webkit-box-reflect property 20:10:38 but element() can be useful for things like reflectiions of content in the document 20:11:00 smfr: tabatkins posted the message (url above), but I haven't seen a spec 20:11:21 doug: what is the next step? what spec would this go into? 20:12:45 smfr: one issue is that it has a CSS property and some API 20:13:00 smfr: i don't really like the API 20:13:10 doug: maybe use a selector rather than an ID? 20:14:08 dino: what's the use case for the API? 20:14:35 smfr: i think we need roc on a call to delve into this 20:15:16 doug: should someone take an action to work on the spec for this, and gather feedback 20:15:22 dbaron: i can ask roc (he's away right now) 20:15:45 ACTION: dbaron to get roc onto the next call 20:15:45 Sorry, couldn't find user - dbaron 20:15:56 ACTION: david baron to get roc onto the next call 20:15:57 Created ACTION-14 - Baron to get roc onto the next call [on David Singer - due 2010-10-04]. 20:16:20 arg 20:16:49 next topic 20:17:02 SVG/CSS unitless values 20:17:03 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0005.html 20:17:16 topic: SVG/CSS unitless values 20:17:43 doug: css is going to defining more in user units (like svg uses px, but they are really just user units) 20:18:09 doug: not necessarily counter-intuitive to user if the values are unitless 20:18:48 dbaron: there are existing ares in css where parsing disambiguation requires the ability to distinguish lengths and numbers 20:19:06 dbaron: that's a big motivation in css to not change this 20:19:49 dbaron: gecko requires units according to css; it only allows unitless numbers for longhand properties in quirks mode 20:20:31 a good summary in this thread by chris lilley: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0011.html 20:20:35 dbaron: the other motivation in css is that in many areas pixel units are frowned upon 20:20:51 dbaron: so making them the default would encourage bad practice 20:21:41 plinss: css wg has been talking about dropping the requirements for units this back in 1998 20:22:32 doug: when is it the wrong thing to do? browsers now do scaling/magnify etc 20:22:40 doug: are the old assumptions still valid? 20:22:57 plinss: i don't see any reason why they don't hold 20:23:17 plinss: css-wg has even been talking about what pixel units are 20:23:45 ed: esp with css transforms etc. 20:23:53 doug: pixel is no longer what css intended 20:24:14 doug: less to do with pixels on a device, but it has more general applicability than before 20:24:38 plinss: we're trying to make it a normal length unit, since it has less association with device pixels than in the past 20:25:28 doug: it should be divorced from the device pixel (esp with transforms), but that makes it more realistic 20:25:40 plinss: but then px has no more significance than inch etc 20:25:59 doug: lots of people think in px 20:26:03 [doug drops out] 20:26:10 -shepazu 20:26:22 dino: we can't make a decision here: css-wg owns the decision 20:26:48 ed: still need to get feedback from public-fx to css-wg 20:26:57 topic: CSS border and background-color on the element 20:26:59 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0053.html 20:27:09 +shepazu 20:29:25 the svg wg discussed it at the f2f,minutes here: http://www.w3.org/2010/09/07-svg-minutes.html#item04 20:29:28 doug: svg-wg looked into it, discussed at the F2F 20:30:29 doug: border adds geometry, so svg-wg thought it was not applicable 20:30:51 doug: allowing background to apply to root svg should may be a special case 20:31:05 http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3E%0A%0Asvg%20%7B%20width%3A%20100px%3B%20height%3A%20100px%3B%20background%3A%20yellow%3B%20border%3A%20medium%20solid%20fuchsia%20%7D%0A%0A%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%3Csvg%20viewBox%3D%220%200%20100%20100%22%3E%0A%20%20%3Ccircle%20cx%3D%2250%22%20cy%3D%2250%22%20r%3D%2250%22%20fill%3D%22green%22%20%2F%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E 20:31:26 dbaron: boundary between the formatting models should be at the... 20:31:48 ? 20:32:04 dbaron: border could change how much space you have available, but so do other things 20:32:20 doug: that's not true now: rectangle around the SVG would not add to the size of the SVG 20:32:37 dbaron: the case here is svg in some other content 20:32:42 (I thought) 20:32:49 doug: we have to define it for all the cases, including standalone svg 20:33:03 doug: no problem with border and background on inline svg 20:33:24 dbaron: an inline svg to the CSS model is a replaced element 20:33:47 s/at the .../at the content box/ 20:34:16 http://schepers.cc/css-in-svg 20:34:46 doug: most important is that they are defined, not necessarily how they are defined 20:35:22 doug: other people felt that other non-root svg elements should not have these properties apply 20:35:58 doug: in svg content, if you want to highlight something, you may want to change the background or make an outline 20:36:26 you currently have do this through script by DOM manipulation 20:36:43 it would be a lot nicer by applying css properties 20:37:11 ed: you could some of that by CSS hover and more CSS 20:37:32 dbaron: I think you can have the SVG content in the tree the whole time, and change the fill 20:37:33 s/more CSS/more SVG content e.g another shape/ 20:37:50 doug: but then you're cluttering the DOM 20:38:18 doug: we see how easy this in with CSS in HTML; it's much harder in SVG 20:39:08 doug: would like a grand unification of SVG and CSS 20:39:43 smfr: that's a larger topic than the one on the agenda, but could be useful 20:40:16 doug: i'd be fine with the svg being a special case, and defining it as has been proposed 20:40:28 ed: is that for the SVG integration spec, or something in this group? 20:41:00 doug: if things overlap with other specs, then they go into the SVG Integration Spec 20:41:08 doug: maybe the SVG Integration Spec should be a product of public-fx 20:41:52 doug: SVG Integration Spec intends to fill the gaps between specs 20:42:16 ed: does CSS define how borders are applied to replaced elements like the SVG root element? 20:42:56 doug: the implementations are fairly consistent, but the behavior (for reference content) is not the one most people exect 20:43:02 s/exect/expect 20:43:08 doug: inline SVG behavior is fine 20:43:45 doug: opened an issue for SVG2 to make it easier to make autoscaling content 20:44:05 doug: rather than width/height 100%, you could say that the document uses autoscaling 20:44:25 dougt to bring up in 2 weeks 20:44:56 ed: is doug going to put something in the integration spec 20:45:04 doug: css folks should email public-fx