Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference -- 02 Jun 2010

<trackbot> Date: 02 June 2010

<danbri> on my way

<hhalpin> ??P26 is hhalpin

<scribe> Scribe: Dan

<scribe> ScribeNick: DKA

<scribe> Chair: Harry

Administrative Work

<hhalpin> PROPOSED: to meet again Wed. May 9th.

Harry: Propose to meet again M9 May

<hhalpin> Lalana Kagal and people from the PrimeLife project

<hhalpin> talking about XACML, AIR, and policy languages in technical detail

Harry: This is important for privacy topic. Distributed privacy.

+1 to meeting again

<hhalpin> ACCEPTED: Meeting Wed. May 9th

<danbri> +1

<cperey> final report discussion postponed?

Final Report Update

<cperey> +1

Harry: Christine brought up that we made an error - we need to talk about the final report. Let's give this 10-15 minutes.
... [on today's call]

<danbri> re openid etc update, i don't need v long (there's not a lot to say really, beyond it's all very complicated!)

<mischat> um, am not on the call, is today's meeting about "Distributed privacy."?

<cperey> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/FinalReportElementsDiscussion

<hhalpin> mischa, no today is about OpenID, Connect, and accessibility issues

<mischat> thanks hhalpin

<hhalpin> +1

Christine: this is what we proposed before. Hasn't changed since May 19. Dan A. and I spoke about it this morning and we assigned ourselves section. My proposal is to attack the last section - on business considerations.

<hhalpin> Maybe give folks a second to look at the various sections

I've volunteered for the Intro initially... Have started taking notes here: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Intro-fodder

Christine: We would like others to step up for specific sections.

<bblfish> ah thanks

<hhalpin> ACTION: DKA to write Introduction [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/02-swxg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-138 - Write Introduction [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2010-06-09].

Harry: State of the social web?

<melvster> harry, if you want to do a skeleton, i can flesh it out

Christine: We felt it would be beneficial to document how people are using the social web today - and identity what remains in the highest state of flux and what seems to be settling out. Puts the use cases and technology material in context.

<petef> Since I offered to do a 'landscape picture' I would be happy to contribute to section II or section IV depending on where people think it fits

<hhalpin> OK, me and melvster, I would like to use the Facebook privacy disaster as a good launching place...

<cperey> so section II is what is happening outside of the SWXG

<cperey> it sets the context for the rest of the report

Harry: Social web use cases?

<cperey> they are not really done, but....

<cperey> probably as done as they will get

Harry: First full draft by the end of this month or next month... We need a solid thing to review in August.

<hhalpin> ACTION: tpa and Melvster on part 2 State of the Social Web in 2010 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/02-swxg-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - tpa

Harry: Maybe short stories but with some less detail...

Christine: Yes - a summary and then point to the wiki page.

<tpa> ACTION: member:tpaanglade and member:Melvster on part 2 State of the Social Web in 2010 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/02-swxg-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Sorry, bad ACTION syntax

<tpa> CTION: tanglade and melvster on part 2 State of the Social Web in 2010

That leaves the gap analysis -- Mischa you put yourself forward for something?

<hhalpin> ACTION: tpa to work on a summary extract of the Social Web current use-cases for part 3 on wiki pages [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/02-swxg-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - tpa

<tpa> ACTION: tanglade and melvster on part 2 State of the Social Web in 2010 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/02-swxg-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-139 - And melvster on part 2 State of the Social Web in 2010 [on Tim Anglade - due 2010-06-09].

<hhalpin> ACTION: tanglade to work on a summary extract of the Social Web current use-cases for part 3 on wiki pages [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/02-swxg-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-140 - Work on a summary extract of the Social Web current use-cases for part 3 on wiki pages [on Tim Anglade - due 2010-06-09].

<danbri> (I'm not going to volunteer for anything; I will try to write something and will figure out which sections to offer it to once it exists)

<danbri> yup, fine

<danbri> action me!

<trackbot> Sorry, bad ACTION syntax

<hhalpin> gap analysis is one of the most important parts

<cperey> I will be happy to be co-editor

<hhalpin> mischa?

<bblfish> hi

<mischat> DKA: i am hear, but not on the call

<hhalpin> henry story?

<bblfish> I am in airport

<mischat> gap analysis ?

mischat, let's discuss off-line...

<mischat> ok

<bblfish> not sure what gap analysis is

<hhalpin> " Need to spend most of our time in terms of creating new content"

<bblfish> (sorry not been paying attention)

<hhalpin> mischa - we'll e-mail you off line

<mischat> ok

<bblfish> jumble in danbri's head

<hhalpin> ACTION: Danbri to write what he thinks is an adequate contribution [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/02-swxg-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-141 - Write what he thinks is an adequate contribution [on Dan Brickley - due 2010-06-09].

State of Social Web update

Danbri's Head [openid developments]

Danbri: in the last few weeks there has been a lot of activity on the openID lists. How this breaks down in terms of groups and communities. OpenID was created in 2005-2006. It's a non-profit foundation with corporate membership.
... they pushed out a new version of spec 2 years ago - still has some issues. We've had some of those details from our guest speakers.
... there is a sibling technology called Oauth which has gone into IETF. What's happened with both of these is that they've incoporated X.509 certificates.
... there are a 2 different ideas about where to go next. openID next and openID connect - what openID connect does is build it on top of Oauth.

<bblfish> ah there are foaf+ssl people in the oauth incubator?

Danbri: the OpenID connect design says "websites are already using Oauth" so why not [leverage] this?

<bblfish> thanks

<bblfish> for me

Danbri: not entirely clear what should happen next - openID foundation needs to decide to be a "broad church" (both approaches) or focus. "connect" folks are saying they'll go off and do openid connect whetever.

<bblfish> danbri you said we could help out

<hhalpin> questions?

I found that very helpful!

<bblfish> is it worth bothering, or is it easier to build some simple screen casts on using WebId ?

harry: also : a broad momentum around WebID from FOAF+SSL work - also a broad feeling that w3c is interested in moving into the identity space.
... it seems like things are finally maturing. Is it possible that there could be a connection between oauth and openid/oauth? What's the real difference between openid vnext and openid connect?

<bblfish> ( for a screencast on make and use webid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iZPJBpI2Po )

danbri: one of the problems with vnext is that it doesn't really exist yet. There are some working groups in openid foundation which have delivered something but not moving very fast. People from social networks side want it to move faster.
... if they're going to do (openid connect) anyway - they will probably do it in IETF. W3C might be a home as well.

<bblfish> not my language

danbri: hope we can keep the whole thing positive and friendly.

+1 to positivism

harry: maybe we could get a final debrief? We should incorporate [the latest thinking] into the final report...

<bblfish> My view is that openidId 1. (which I know) is good at covering holes that foaf+ssl cannot reach due to browser limitations, but WebId is more elegant. So they complement each other

<danbri> oh i should also mention, there is a User Expeience group being created at OpenID Foundation - http://lists.openid.net/pipermail/openid-user-experience/2010-June/date.html

<bblfish> that sounds interesting to me

<bblfish> (so it would help me understand - especially on the oauth side)

<danbri> perhaps they could make it v broad, encompass all openid, oauth and ssl-based approaches?

harry: after 2 weeks' time, we look at developments on webid, openid v. connect, and oauth.. . then focus on report.

<cperey> can you run that through again?

<danbri> we lost Michael?

<bblfish> yes, though send it to me by email if I need to do something, cause I did not quite hear all of it

<petef> sounds good to me

<danbri> ok i think that's enough re openid and we have enough re next steps

<petef> +1 WebId especially

<hhalpin> PROPOSAL: 3 more invited talks after we finish up privacy work (Connect, v.Next, and WebID updates)

<cperey> I think we should have 5 minutes at beginning of each meeting to go into progress on the final report

<danbri> those 3 could be on the same call, hhalpin

<hhalpin> ACTION: hhalpin to invite for latest development talk Connect and WebID and v.Next [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/02-swxg-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-142 - Invite for latest development talk Connect and WebID and v.Next [on Harry Halpin - due 2010-06-09].

michael cooper and others from protocols & formats wg on accessibility on social web

<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Social_Web

<danbri> maybe Peter StAndre could come along too again, he is now leading IETF work in that area

<oedipus> oedipus = Gregory J. Rosmaita http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/User:Grosmai - been part of W3C/WAI since before WAI was officially launched to review HTML4/CSS2; blind user of speech output and keyboard input only

Michael Cooper and others from Protocol and Format WG on accessibility and the Social Web

harry: this one of the areas where w3c has historically had a lot to offer the web and we could have a lot to offer the social web.

MichaelC: I'm michael cooper - staff contact for pf working group. We review other w3c technologies for accessibility issues.
... we're in a situation where we don't exactly know where all the issues. We need to find out what each other knows. The more we understand what the group is doing the more targeted advice we can offer.
... we also have janina who is chair of pf working group.

Janina: Already good learning experience. Anything that has to do with UI immediately impacts accessibility concerns because accessibility.
... we also put a emphasis on semantic markup.

<oedipus> here to listen, learn and contribute - working on social networking site targetted at blind/visually impaired based on OpenSocial

Janina: more to be said around all these topics.

Gregory: I'm here to listen learn and contribute - my special interest is I've been working on a social networking site targeted at visually impaired and blind users.

<bblfish> dka, do you do accessibility on security?

<bblfish> q

harry: one obvious thing to do would be to have wg members run questions about accessibility by you... First question I have: if I have a technology - maybe not a W3C standard - [e.g. a community standard] - is there a single document of guidelines on accessibility that would be useful?

<oedipus> 2 things social web site needs: ability to create WCAG 2.0 compliant content; social networking site (as a tool) needs to conform to ATAG 2.0

janina: don't think there's a specific document on the social web - a basic intro would be useful.

<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20

<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/ATAG20

<danbri> ( /me finds ancient javascript rdf query demo (possibly not very accessible itself) http://www.w3.org/1999/11/11-WWWProposal/atagdemo ... queries authoring tool metadata )

janina: there are two resources that are important to know about. W3C is one - and we are it on accessibility - meanwhile what is happening in regulatory space (US, UK, EU, Japan, Australia...) they are looking at accessible technologies when they deploy something on the Web.

<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/

janina: e.g. in section 508.

<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/

janina: (U.S. regulatory)

<MichaelC> Introduction to accessibility

MichaelC: That is not maintained by the PF wg - intended more for web content authors. Essential components of web accessibility could be useful. Describes how different tools need to work together.

<MichaelC> Essential components

<MichaelC> How PWD use Web

<oedipus> on U.S. Section 508 check http://access-board.gov/508.htm

<MichaelC> XML Accessibility Guidelines

MichaelC: "introduction to how people with disabilities use the web" could also be useful.

<MichaelC> PFWG home page

MichaelC: XML document is a little outdated but there is good information on what to do when developing a format...

<danbri> oedipus, did you look any deeper into Google's OpenSocial work? (and Apache Shindig) - it's pretty .js-heavy...

<danbri> lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech

MichaelC: in terms of how to communicate with us. We have a mailing list.

<danbri> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/

<MichaelC> XTech list

<oedipus> danbri, that's been one of the holdups on implementation -- need more ARIA support from ATs and UAs

<oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg-comments

MichaelC: Another possibility - approach PF working group more formally with email to Janina or myself.

<danbri> (feb 2008 msg on OpenSocial btw, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Feb/0004.html )

<oedipus> for reference: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/CAPTCHA_v2 (there is NO accessible captcha)

Janina: there are several ways this comes up. On OpenID (and like) there is a wish-list in terms of Accessibility. There is a desire to explore "can this system communicate preferences on preferred working environment?")

<bblfish> Identity is core to the social web, since if you do not know who you are dealing with, there can only be 2 agents for the server: me and them. To distinguish people you need to knowing who someone is. Currently there is this problem, is that browsers do not show what identity one has when logged in. It's extremely simple thing to fix. Is this something that could be part of accessibility? Just wondering if you could check that out. http://code.google.com/p/

<bblfish> Another idea one could add foaf ontology to describe disabilities, so that UIs could use it.

Janina: we need to explore further.

<oedipus> bblfish, a FOAF ontology to describe not disabilities, but specific combos of assistive technology, is something i would like to explore further

<oedipus> bblfish, problem with breakdown by disability is that not all blind users know/use braille so a refreshable braille display user has a different experience than an audio-only user

DKA: we could articulate accessibility gap on current social web standards (e.g. openID) in the xg report.

Harry: we could do this in the gap analysis. Also, I'm not sure what the accessibility state of the social web is.

<danbri> also part of privacy part; ensuring sites treat such info with appropriate respect/care

<bblfish> thanks, oedipus. Interesting things to look into

<oedipus> http://www.accessibletwitter.com - interesting implementation of Twitter API

Harry: that would be useful for the report.

<oedipus> bblfish, my eddress is oedipus@hicom.net

<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/

<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/

<hhalpin> has ARIA had take-up in current social web sites?

<hhalpin> which sites are not accessible, and how?

MichaelC: social web sites tend to have more complex designs [using ajax, etc..] PF working group is working on ARIA to patch that hole. Sites adopting ARIA could be an accessibility solution there. Some things intrinsic to the social networking aspect.

<hhalpin> Any issues with uniformity of accessibility across sites?

<bblfish> one clear useability issue is identity :-)

<oedipus> twitter accessibility depends upon the client -- native web based twitter poor, hence need for AccessibleTwitter or Qwitter (http://www.qwitter-client.net/)

<hhalpin> hmm....have any of the distributed social networking software (GNU Social, diaspora, etc.) taken accessibility on board?

MichaelC: in some sites, there is a big authoring challenge. If user posts a photo and the site doesn't allow/promopt for them to provide alternative text then hat content will be inaccessibile.

<danbri> +1 to case studies

<hhalpin> a case study of facebook would be great

<oedipus> there is a GNU accessibility pledge: http://www.gnu.org/accessibility/

MichaelC: it might be useful to do some joint case studies. In addition, the authoring tool accessibility guidelines may provide a good starting point.

<hhalpin> GNU Social is moving fast, but haven't been tracking as well as should be - anyone tracking it?

janina: I like the idea of you addressing accessibility in your report.

<oedipus> GJR will email GNU accessibility leader, Chris Hofstadter, to find out how much he is involved in GNU Social

janina: as already mentioned, for a technology to become ubiquitous and standardized, it's got to be accessible.

<danbri> oedipus, that'd be great

<danbri> (someone is whispering loudly on the call :)

Janina: there is a higher level of interaciton on the social web -

<Zakim> danbri, you wanted to ask whether members of the W3C accessibility community could offer to contribute to the 'open' social network projects (GNU Social; Diaspora, StatusNet etc)

<oedipus> danbri, i will carbon-copy emessage to GNU A11y leader to public-xg-socialweb@w3.org

danbri: we could use this as an opportunity to make connections between new emerging projects in social web and accessibility community in w3c.

<oedipus> once i close all my ARIA action items i'll be focusing specifically on spec review, XG review/participation and CSS3 development

Michael: Recommending people to get involved in those projects is something we can do.

<hhalpin> Facebook working on accessibility: http://blog.facebook.com/blog.php?post=71852922130

Danbri: We're not really sure how to thing of these projects - they are part standards, part software, ...
... e.g. gnusocial will build on top of statusnet OStatus....
... it would be good to run something like a workshop at x-tech?

<danbri> wai-xtech the list, not the conf!

<bblfish> got to go and queue up for the 1 mile queue to easyjet plane

<oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech

<bblfish> oh, just the issue posted above

Harry: one of the best ways forward might be - 2 paragraphs from PF working group...

<hhalpin> henry? wanna say something before jumping on airplane?

<bblfish> this is a key simple issue to put a recommendation on for browser manufacturers

<bblfish> yes, it's just a bug report

<hhalpin> that URI is not working bblfish

<bblfish> but it's applicaable to any browsers, I have a bug issue on Firefox too

<danbri> bblfish, have you looked into http://hacks.mozilla.org/2010/04/account-manager-coming-to-firefox/ at all?

<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to talk about interchange format

<oedipus> re: google source code project, do you mean http://code.google.com/p/opensocial-jquery/ ?

MichaelC: I wanted to bring up the idea of an interchange format in the social web. There might be accessibility issues there -

<bblfish> danbri, that bug report references an earlier article on that

MichaelC: wanted to make sure that doesn't fall off the radar.

<bblfish> but thanks for the update

<bblfish> got to go...

<petef> I have to go. Will catch up with hhalpin about section IV soon.

harry: we would like 2 paragraphs - one paragraph on the problems of existing social networking sites - other paragraph: looking at openID, OStatus- technologies not in widespread use by people but which could be shortly.

Janina: I think we can do something like that.

<hhalpin> say two paragraphs

<hhalpin> one focussing on a case study of an exisitng

<hhalpin> site

<hhalpin> and another on some tech that is crucial for distributed tech

I would also like to see an analysis of Oauth accessibility - which is currently in wide use.

<rreck> thanks

<oedipus> thank you for having us -- "look" forward to working more directly with y'all

<melvster> thanks

<hhalpin> Meeting adjourned

<rreck> bye

<danbri> bye! & thanks!

<melvster> I think I'm MCarvalh

<paul> I'm on the phone still

<hhalpin> +1 paul

<melvster> facebook connect will be replaced with oauth

<hhalpin> i think identity commons had some on their wiki

<hhalpin> 5 years :)

<oedipus> http://blog.facebook.com/blog.php?post=71852922130

<hhalpin> trackbot, end meeting

- DRAFT -

Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference

02 Jun 2010

Attendees

Contents