See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 21 May 2010
<scribe> Scribe: James Cheney
<scribe> ScribeNick: jcheney
Yolanda: not on IRC
Yolanda: New members?
<pgroth> loving swan
(didn't catch your name...)
SWAN ontology one of ontologies we are trying to integrate
<smiles> jcheney, his name is Paolo Ciccarese I believe
While we wait for harry, discuss other agenda items
<pgroth> harry is dialing in now
<Paolo> jcheney, sorry about that. Paolo Ciccarese is my name indeed
Discussion of scenarios including news aggregator - adding technical requirements leading to state of art/technology & indentfy gap
Paul: followup - architecture diagrams, association between tech and user requirements
Do we want to do this for all three scenarios? Or just web scenario?
Yolanda: finish first, next in June
Paul: Need one more diagram (Yogesh), then tech reqs
Yolanda: Any other interest in state-of-art report?
Olaf: will have a look
Paul: will sort out next steps with Yogesh and others
Yolanda: Harry will give an overview of story so far with Prov & Social Web XG interaction, scenarios
Harry: Social Web XG looking at
standardization for distributed open social networks
... Broad scope, trying to zero in on candidates for standards
RDF, FOAF emerging. Some adoption but most use cases not possible with RDF 1.0
Need versioning, access control, provenance
and most use cases involve these
Determining genuineness as data moves between social nets: need a solution, no good one now
<hhalpin> openid, certicate, foaf+ssl
Most activity so far: what is a good internet ID? (>50% of social web XG so far)
<hhalpin> URIs, Web ID
Provenance needs identity (personal, authority, certificates); also foundational for policy driven use cases, esp. privacy
<hhalpin> the privacy jungle
Objective, data-driven measures of trust?
<JimM_> provenance == source of ~FOAF network info -- info about the authority stating it?
Luc: You think prov should be based on identity in soc. nets. What does this mean?
<pgroth> it means (i think ) that provenance "grounds out" in identity
Harry: Identity needed to determine "Who" in open systems. (lack of central authentication?)
What is a reliable open-ended system for identifying people over internet?
Use cases: demonstrate provenance, but problematizes identity
People in social web have multiple identities
<Paolo> Related project for identifying people http://esw.w3.org/Foaf%2Bssl
Ability to "take down" your data (facebook death)
whereas most provenance is "append only". Need to support deletion of provenance?
In social network, need to track down copies and delete them too (difficult...)
<pgroth> we added that
Paul: We did add a deletion" aspect to use case
Harry: Not much academic work on this
Iranian election - false information, which messages are real
(on the other hand, maybe the Iranian twitterers didn't want to be easily identifiable!)
need "anonymous IDs" - know this is the same person but not who it really is? persistence of trust relationships
government-level spamming of social network sites
Vocabulary for "person made claim on date" - still need to build "time" and "versioning" into RDF to support this
Example: Activity Streams (FriendFeed) allow sharing of updates among sites.
<hhalpin> atom-based protocol
Define a simple atom-based protocol for profile updates (non-RDF, finite vocab)
Lack of provenance framework to deal with change control
Problem with Atom: Have to subscribe and poll feed to see if anything changed
<hhalpin> real-time updates
<hhalpin> HTTP GET
<hhalpin> 5000 http atom feed
Need push model instead of "pull" / polling model
Server overload problem due to centralization
<hhalpin> vodafone onesocialweb
social web XG members developing products (Vodafone, Google Buzz) using pubsubhub, atom, activitystreams
atom describes updates, but not fine-grained deletion, identity; not as rich as opm
Jim: Is RDF the problem or is the problem the lack of an RDF syndication/update formalism?
Harry: Lacks notification, change control
<hhalpin> rdf lacks change control, real-time notification, and a rich model of identity.
Jim: Seems like a non-technical issue
Harry: The difference is that there are de facto standards for updates (Atom) and pub/sub (PubSubHub).
Jim: Prov community could encourage standardization, recognition of importance of pub/sub issues
Harry: Scalability to 100,000s of users (why facebook bought friendfeed)
Jim: OPM accounts may handle some of these issues
<Luc> a few years ago, (using the pasoa model), we had defined a provenance-aware rss, which required headers to be communicated, as part of messages.
Paul: Jim, is it enough develop a vocabulary, or are there protocol/architecture issues (with RDF pub/sub)?
<Luc> so, it's both vocabulary and protocol!
Jim: Third option: prov vocabularies plus other vocabularies
<pgroth> can't hear you harry
<hhalpin> cvs on rdf
Harry: want declarative vocabulary, but also want (distributed?) CVS for RDF
<hhalpin> versioning and vocabulary and realtime update mechanism
Versioning a subset of prov vocabulary, and real-time (change driven) update mechanism.
<ssahoo2> would RDF named graph help in managing RDF graph versioning?
Really would like clear connection between prov and policy, trust.
Social Web XG running until Sept 2010, drafts of final report in next month or two, will circulate
Satya: how complicated are queries in social web context? is more complicated analysis of provenance required?
Harry: Example: want to distribute photo update to (possibly complicated) group of friends, possibly inferred from previous user actions
Satya: Could be related to comparison/diff of provenance graphs
Harry: No one does this yet, but coming - Google Buzz, facebook policy mishaps leading to changes, policy imposition
Privacy, trust wasn't built-into system
Satya: Requirement in eScience that users want to be able to repeat experiments. Social web: reconstruct history?
Harry: Might want to be able to replay / script /infer actions or privacy policies
Yolanda: Moving on to additional topics
Next item: RDF Next Steps workshop submission
Jun: Draft started last month, based on user requirements
Message: Need best practice for common requirements for PDF concerning provenance, vocabulary for provenance patterns
Need proper identity management (data, graphs, annotation)
<pgroth> is it accepted?
Accepted for presentation, small changes needed
Three other papers mention provenance
<ivan> ian davis
Next topic: Query provenance (Irini)
Irini: goal was to show how existing relational data provenance models can be used for SPARQL/RDF
Showed that existing model works for positive SPARQL
Negation problematic (as usual...)
Thanks to Olaf for comments
Can discuss in future meeting
Next topic: New use case, internet architecture use case
Will revisit next week
trackbot, end telcon
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