See also: IRC log
<Yolanda> thanks Simon!!
<trackbot> Date: 09 April 2010
<Yogesh> who's on the phone?
<Paolo> looks like the phone is not monitored
Paul: We've cleaned up user
requirements document, addressed comments (see talk section on
requirements clean page)
... This version can be passed around and published - let us
know good possible venues
... Three scenarios collated from use cases, then how affects
requirements by provenance dimension
Yolanda: if acknowledgements do not reflect your contributions, let us know
<pgroth> This is at: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/User_Requirements
Yolanda: Best way to disseminate it?
Ivan: Can produce document to put
on Wiki, but in final format
... Can publish at end of XG as part of report, but could
formally publish now also
Yolanda: Advantage of waiting would be to allow updates, but wouldn't get early feedback on anything missing
Ivan: Can put on activity blog on its availability
<pgroth> I'm happy with that
Paul: Wants to add figures, do not want to freeze it yet
Yolanda: Next item: RDF Next Steps workshop paper
Jun: 2 weeks ago talked about submitting group paper to this workshop, had telecon to brainstorm
<jun> http://users.ox.ac.uk/~zool0770/papers/RDFNextStep_ProvXG-v10.pdf
Jun: Draft, almost final, paper
ready - to submit Sunday
... Sorry was not possible to get everyone involved: too hard
to coordinate larger group (contact me if something missed
out)
... Target audience is Next Gen RDF working group
... Brief intro on incubator group; use case, requirement
gathering process; articulate RDF-relevant provenance
requirements; two short messages: need good mechanism in RDF to
ID artifacts and graphs in provenance, need standard
pattern/practice for provenance of RDF graphs
... Good to get feedback from group on messages
... Not thorough state of the art report, just try to list many
technologies and link to Wiki page - if something missing,
please say
<pgroth> +q
<Luc> +q
Jun: Feedback needed today, no major revisions at weekend
?q
Paul: Why does standard pattern/practice relate to RDF group?
Jun: Expression, vocabulary of provenance of RDF graph - lots of different attempts exist - doesn't rule out contribution of our group not specific to technology
Luc: Currently RDF has no notion
of provenance; in user reqs we did not refer to provenance coz
trying to justify need for provenance
... Same applies: requirements on RDF should not be expressed
in terms of provenance
... Not within RDF (WG) to provide mechanism for provenance, as
RDF does not include provenance, for provenance group
Chris: Need from RDF WG is to represent metainformation about RDF data, to allow provenance, defined by provenance group, as one application of this
Luc: Current paper does not
really explain why this metadata is required from a provenance
perspective explicitly enough
... With OPM, encountered need for metadata on RDF graphs with
more concrete requirements
<DeborahMcG> +1 to luc's comments
Luc: In context of OPM, could see RDF encoding prov graph, requirements from scoping, annotating graphs; also from wanting provenance of triples
<DeborahMcG> I need also to encode provenance graphs, need provenance of triples, and need provenance of provenance - all of this is not from the opm perspective but from the pml perspective
<Irini> +q
Jun: Tried to express these in paper need for identifying, annotating graphs
<DeborahMcG> yes - i need annotation of annotations.
Luc: Cannot be as precise without specific provenance model; no agreement on provenance as graphs
<ssahoo> agree with Chris on this point
Chris: Did not propose or judge mechanism, but listed mechanisms; only a short position paper; clearly make statement that work needs to be done, not actually do the work
<pgroth> give examples
Yolanda: Could be more specific on our own experiences with state of art
<DeborahMcG> sorry i am about to drop audio. i agree that judging proposals is hopeless. we might just say that the working group is willing to provide examples of challenges with at least some of our extensive provenance efforts(but not include them in this document)
Jun: Would be good to include everyone's experiences but no time or space
Irini: RDF is solely a data model, to add provenance could add such metainformation but then requires provenance of query results: not part of RDF group's work
Jun: Agree specific techs for provenance is in prov group not RDF group
Irini: Need to include discussion of how to express provenance of query of results; maybe too much focus on workflow provenance
Jun: Mention requirements on querying provenance in paper, but outside scope
Irini: Not about querying provenance, but provenance of query results
Jun: Not much further comment on this, may be relevant to SPARQL WG
Ivan: (as chair of workshop)
Workshop looking for position paper, identifying requirements
on RDF, RDF environments, not solutions to all problems
... At the moment, do not have RDF WG, provenance WG; workshop
to identify what work W3C should do
... an RDF WG would not come up with patterns, practice; but
identify where W3C would coordinate where such patterns
collected (e.g. XG Wiki)
Paolo: workshop already achieved some of its goals in this group by triggering thinking about what activity needs to take place and where; position paper not 50 page report, we will follow with more mature document to inform future activity; this exercise should not bind us
<Paolo> ack
Yolanda: Agrees with Paolo, hard
enough to get this paper out, but clear in purpose
... Discuss state of art in next telecon
... F2F meeting: Most who will attend can be there Sunday, some
continue on Monday
<pgroth> planning for technical requirements
Yolanda: Possibility to join by
telecon, but cheaper if no one will - will send message
... One topic is to converge on working definition on
provenance
... Another to create concept map of existing provenance
systems
... Patterns for provenance for user
... What is the object of provenance (what is it the provenance
of)?
<pgroth> the definition will take the whole day
<pgroth> :-)
<jun> +1
Yolanda: Next week, presentation
on PML
... Then planning state of the art
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