RDFa Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 30 September 2010

Seen
Ivan Herman, Knud Möller, Manu Sporny, Mark Birbeck, Nathan Rixham, Shane McCarron, Steven Pemberton
Regrets
Manu Sporny, Mark Birbeck
Chair
Ivan Herman
Scribe
Knud Möller
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. not to accept the change request in Issue-40 link
  2. RDFa does not introduce an explicit dependency on the LinkTypes registry (Issue-35) link
Topics
13:16:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-rdfa-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-rdfa-irc

13:16:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

13:16:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 7332

13:16:22 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 44 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 44 minutes

13:16:23 <trackbot> Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference
13:16:23 <trackbot> Date: 30 September 2010
13:16:32 <ivan> Chair: Ivan
13:16:40 <ivan> Regrets: Manu, MarkB
13:58:19 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip

(No events recorded for 41 minutes)

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip

13:58:19 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

13:58:20 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started

13:58:22 <Zakim> +Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan

13:59:50 <ivan> yes

Ivan Herman: yes

14:00:15 <Steven__> trackbot, start telcon

Steven Pemberton: trackbot, start telcon

14:00:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:00:19 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 7332

14:00:19 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start now

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start now

14:00:20 <trackbot> Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference
14:00:20 <trackbot> Date: 30 September 2010
14:00:37 <ivan> zakim, who is here?

Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here?

14:00:37 <Zakim> I notice SW_RDFa()10:00AM has restarted

Zakim IRC Bot: I notice SW_RDFa()10:00AM has restarted

14:00:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Ivan

14:00:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see Knud, NathanR, ShaneM, Steven__, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Knud, NathanR, ShaneM, Steven__, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, trackbot

14:01:05 <Zakim> + +1.612.217.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.612.217.aaaa

14:01:08 <Zakim> -Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan

14:01:10 <Zakim> +Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan

14:01:13 <ShaneM> zakim, aaaa is ShaneM

Shane McCarron: zakim, aaaa is ShaneM

14:01:14 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM; got it

14:01:39 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

14:01:56 <Zakim> + +1.441.592.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.441.592.aabb

14:02:03 <ivan> zakim, IPcaller is Knuth

Ivan Herman: zakim, IPcaller is Knuth

14:02:03 <Zakim> +Knuth; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Knuth; got it

14:02:15 <NathanR> zakim, aabb is NathanR

Nathan Rixham: zakim, aabb is NathanR

14:02:15 <Zakim> +NathanR; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +NathanR; got it

14:02:21 <Knud> zakim, IPcaller is Knud

Knud Möller: zakim, IPcaller is Knud

14:02:21 <Zakim> sorry, Knud, I do not recognize a party named 'IPcaller'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Knud, I do not recognize a party named 'IPcaller'

14:02:33 <ivan> zakim, Knuth is Knud

Ivan Herman: zakim, Knuth is Knud

14:02:35 <Zakim> +Knud; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Knud; got it

14:02:39 <Steven__> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617

14:02:51 <Zakim> ok, Steven__; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven__; the call is being made

14:02:59 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven

14:03:51 <Steven__> zakim, who is on the phone?

Steven Pemberton: zakim, who is on the phone?

14:04:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ivan, ShaneM, Knud, NathanR, Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Ivan, ShaneM, Knud, NathanR, Steven

14:04:17 <ivan> scribe: Knud

(Scribe set to Knud Möller)

14:04:22 <ivan> scribenick: Knud
14:05:44 <Knud> Ivan: welcome to Nathan, we know him from the mailing list as an active contributor

Ivan Herman: welcome to Nathan, we know him from the mailing list as an active contributor

14:05:59 <Knud> ...: Nathan joins as an invited expert

...: Nathan joins as an invited expert

14:06:14 <ivan> Topic: Issue 40

1. ISSUE-40

14:06:22 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/40

Ivan Herman: -> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/40

14:06:35 <Knud> "Empty element should not create literals"

"Empty element should not create literals"

14:07:30 <ShaneM> q+ to agree that the empty triples should be generated

Shane McCarron: q+ to agree that the empty triples should be generated

14:07:35 <Knud> Nathan: I think empty triples should be generated

Nathan Rixham: I think empty triples should be generated

14:07:36 <Steven__> I agree

Steven Pemberton: I agree

14:07:53 <Steven__> zakim, mute shane

Steven Pemberton: zakim, mute shane

14:07:53 <Zakim> ShaneM should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM should now be muted

14:08:07 <Knud> ...: there might be situations where you _want_ an empty string, like not having a middle name

...: there might be situations where you _want_ an empty string, like not having a middle name

14:08:28 <ShaneM> zakim, unmute ShaneM

Shane McCarron: zakim, unmute ShaneM

14:08:28 <Zakim> ShaneM should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM should no longer be muted

14:08:30 <ivan> q?

Ivan Herman: q?

14:08:31 <Steven__> ack Shane

Steven Pemberton: ack Shane

14:08:31 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to agree that the empty triples should be generated

Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM, you wanted to agree that the empty triples should be generated

14:08:37 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

14:08:38 <Knud> ...: this would be just moving the problem

...: this would be just moving the problem

14:08:43 <ivan> ack ivan

Ivan Herman: ack ivan

14:08:53 <Steven__> q+ Shane

Steven Pemberton: q+ Shane

14:09:31 <Knud> ivan: it would still possible to generate an empty string with @content

Ivan Herman: it would still possible to generate an empty string with @content

14:09:52 <ivan> ack ShaneM

Ivan Herman: ack ShaneM

14:10:16 <Steven__> q+

Steven Pemberton: q+

14:10:20 <Steven__> ack Shane

Steven Pemberton: ack Shane

14:10:30 <ivan> ack Steven__

Ivan Herman: ack Steven__

14:10:30 <Knud> shane: agree with Nathan - RDFa is just another serialisation, why should there be a special case for it?

Shane McCarron: agree with Nathan - RDFa is just another serialisation, why should there be a special case for it?

14:11:06 <Knud> steven: I also agree. It would be wrong to not create empty literals

Steven Pemberton: I also agree. It would be wrong to not create empty literals

14:11:15 <ivan> PROPOSED: empty elements should generate empty literals (Issue-40)

PROPOSED: empty elements should generate empty literals (ISSUE-40)

14:11:22 <Steven__> +1

Steven Pemberton: +1

14:11:27 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

14:11:27 <NathanR> +1

Nathan Rixham: +1

14:12:08 <ivan> PROPOSED: not to accept the change request in Issue-40

PROPOSED: not to accept the change request in ISSUE-40

14:12:09 <Steven__> +1

Steven Pemberton: +1

14:12:14 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

14:12:18 <NathanR> +1

Nathan Rixham: +1

14:12:23 <ivan> RESOLVED: not to accept the change request in Issue-40

RESOLVED: not to accept the change request in ISSUE-40

14:12:56 <Knud> ivan: not formally closed, because too many active people missing

Ivan Herman: not formally closed, because too many active people missing

14:13:02 <ivan> TOPIC: Issue-35

2. ISSUE-35

14:13:10 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/35

Ivan Herman: -> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/35

14:13:15 <Knud> "Consider relationship between LinkTypes in RDFa and the IETF LinkType registry"

"Consider relationship between LinkTypes in RDFa and the IETF LinkType registry"

14:14:39 <Knud> shane: there is work having to do with http headers. creating a registry for values of @rel

Shane McCarron: there is work having to do with http headers. creating a registry for values of @rel

14:15:13 <Knud> ...: however, what we do is slightly different than usually.

...: however, what we do is slightly different than usually.

14:15:30 <Knud> ...: our values of @rel are terms, and is extenable

...: our values of @rel are terms, and is extenable

14:15:40 <Knud> ...: hostlanguages can define their own terms

...: hostlanguages can define their own terms

14:15:44 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

14:15:54 <ivan> ack ivan

Ivan Herman: ack ivan

14:16:03 <Knud> ...: hostlanguages could worry about linking, registering, etc. those terms with the IETF

...: hostlanguages could worry about linking, registering, etc. those terms with the IETF

14:16:24 <Knud> ivan: however, we plan to define a default profile (of terms) for XHTML

Ivan Herman: however, we plan to define a default profile (of terms) for XHTML

14:17:21 <Knud> shane: exactly. We define terms, can look for correlations, but we should not have a dependency to the IETF

Shane McCarron: exactly. We define terms, can look for correlations, but we should not have a dependency to the IETF

14:18:01 <ivan> PROPOSED: RDFa does not introduce an explicit dependency on the LinkTypes registry (Issue-35)

PROPOSED: RDFa does not introduce an explicit dependency on the LinkTypes registry (ISSUE-35)

14:18:15 <ShaneM> +1

Shane McCarron: +1

14:18:18 <Knud> +1

+1

14:18:18 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

14:18:20 <Steven__> +1

Steven Pemberton: +1

14:18:23 <NathanR> +1

Nathan Rixham: +1

14:18:45 <Knud> knud: should we explain that in the specs?

Knud Möller: should we explain that in the specs?

14:19:25 <ivan> RESOLVED: RDFa does not introduce an explicit dependency on the LinkTypes registry (Issue-35)

RESOLVED: RDFa does not introduce an explicit dependency on the LinkTypes registry (ISSUE-35)

14:19:31 <Knud> ivan: that's probably not necessary

Ivan Herman: that's probably not necessary

14:20:00 <Knud> ...: it was Manu who raised this initially

...: it was Manu who raised this initially

14:20:16 <Knud> shane: on a related note - this has to do with case-sensitivity of terms

Shane McCarron: on a related note - this has to do with case-sensitivity of terms

14:20:27 <Knud> ...: in the IETF, they are case-sensitive

...: in the IETF, they are case-sensitive

14:21:37 <Knud> ...: in RDFa core, they are case-insensitive

...: in RDFa core, they are case-insensitive

14:21:55 <ivan> Topic: URI strings in literal

3. URI strings in literal

14:22:13 <Knud> "Any plain literal that does not have a (possibly empty) @datatype that matches the regex for a URL MUST be treated as an IRI object in RDFa."

"Any plain literal that does not have a (possibly empty) @datatype that matches the regex for a URL MUST be treated as an IRI object in RDFa."

14:22:56 <Knud> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Sep/0127.html

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Sep/0127.html

14:23:41 <Knud> ivan: many people do not make a difference between URIs appearing as a literal, or as an attribute value of special attributes

Ivan Herman: many people do not make a difference between URIs appearing as a literal, or as an attribute value of special attributes

14:24:53 <Steven__> q+

Steven Pemberton: q+

14:24:57 <ivan> ack Steven__

Ivan Herman: ack Steven__

14:25:58 <Knud> steven: can we not apply a datatype to make a literal a URI?

Steven Pemberton: can we not apply a datatype to make a literal a URI?

14:26:05 <Knud> ivan: this is not possible at the moment

Ivan Herman: this is not possible at the moment

14:26:58 <Knud> ...: there is currently no corresponding xsd datatype

...: there is currently no corresponding xsd datatype

14:27:08 <NathanR> q+

Nathan Rixham: q+

14:27:47 <Knud> ...: and we cannot use "anyURI"

...: and we cannot use "anyURI"

14:28:36 <Knud> ...: there are legitimate cases where I want to have a literal, a string, which conforms to the URI spec

...: there are legitimate cases where I want to have a literal, a string, which conforms to the URI spec

14:28:56 <ivan> ack NathanR

Ivan Herman: ack NathanR

14:29:05 <Steven__> q+

Steven Pemberton: q+

14:29:12 <Knud> ...: anyway, this would not help people like FB, because they won't ask their developers to use this datatype

...: anyway, this would not help people like FB, because they won't ask their developers to use this datatype

14:29:54 <ivan> ack Steven__

Ivan Herman: ack Steven__

14:30:01 <ShaneM> q+ to ask about datatypes

Shane McCarron: q+ to ask about datatypes

14:30:20 <Knud> nathan: we should go with the common case. basically agree with the proposal

Nathan Rixham: we should go with the common case. basically agree with the proposal

14:30:56 <NathanR> q+

Nathan Rixham: q+

14:31:03 <NathanR> q-

Nathan Rixham: q-

14:31:13 <Knud> steven: this means that, every time we have a non-datatype string, we have to check if the string is an acceptable URI

Steven Pemberton: this means that, every time we have a non-datatype string, we have to check if the string is an acceptable URI

14:31:18 <ShaneM> fubar == xsd\:anyURI

Shane McCarron: fubar == xsd\:anyURI

14:31:29 <Knud> ...: problem: "fubar" is an acceptable relative URI

...: problem: "fubar" is an acceptable relative URI

14:31:59 <Knud> ivan: we may have to restrict to absolute URIs

Ivan Herman: we may have to restrict to absolute URIs

14:32:28 <NathanR> ../foo & iso: & "" (0-length-string) all == xsd:anyURI

Nathan Rixham: ../foo & iso: & "" (0-length-string) all == xsd:anyURI

14:32:39 <NathanR> relative0uri*

Nathan Rixham: relative0uri*

14:32:40 <ivan> ack ShaneM

Ivan Herman: ack ShaneM

14:32:40 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask about datatypes

Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM, you wanted to ask about datatypes

14:32:43 <ivan> q?

Ivan Herman: q?

14:32:45 <Knud> steven: there would still be lots of things that might be parsed as a URI. lots of string with a colon in it, for example

Steven Pemberton: there would still be lots of things that might be parsed as a URI. lots of string with a colon in it, for example

14:33:45 <Knud> shane: I also see this problem. Also, we will probably need to allow relative URIs. e.g., resource="#foo", resource="picture.jpg"

Shane McCarron: I also see this problem. Also, we will probably need to allow relative URIs. e.g., resource="#foo", resource="picture.jpg"

14:33:45 <Steven__> <span property=my:datatype>xsd:integer</span>¨

Steven Pemberton: <span property=my:datatype>xsd:integer</span>¨

14:34:02 <Steven__> then xsd:integer would be seen as a URI

Steven Pemberton: then xsd:integer would be seen as a URI

14:34:38 <NathanR> <span property="foaf:name">nathan</span>  <--- would be a valid uri ref

Nathan Rixham: <span property="foaf:name">nathan</span> <--- would be a valid uri ref

14:34:51 <ivan> <meta property="og:sfdssf" content="http://....." />

Ivan Herman: <meta property="og:sfdssf" content="http://....." />

14:34:52 <Steven__> Not for an abs URI

Steven Pemberton: Not for an abs URI

14:35:35 <NathanR> q+

Nathan Rixham: q+

14:36:09 <ivan> ack NathanR

Ivan Herman: ack NathanR

14:36:29 <Steven__> q+

Steven Pemberton: q+

14:36:37 <ivan> ack Steven__

Ivan Herman: ack Steven__

14:36:50 <Steven__> see xsd:integer

Steven Pemberton: see xsd:integer

14:36:52 <Knud> nathan: I also agree this is a problem. maybe less of a problem with absolute URIs

Nathan Rixham: I also agree this is a problem. maybe less of a problem with absolute URIs

14:37:21 <ShaneM> for example mailto:shane

Shane McCarron: for example mailto:shane

14:37:22 <Knud> steven: but even absolute URIs (that are meant to be URIs) are very hard to detect

Steven Pemberton: but even absolute URIs (that are meant to be URIs) are very hard to detect

14:37:32 <ShaneM> for example urn:...

Shane McCarron: for example urn:...

14:37:43 <Knud> ...: isbn:43290489fj is an absolute URI

...: isbn:43290489fj is an absolute URI

14:38:09 <Knud> ivan: so, we might have to agree on a family of URI schemes that have to be matched

Ivan Herman: so, we might have to agree on a family of URI schemes that have to be matched

14:40:12 <Knud> ...: is there an official registry of schemes?

...: is there an official registry of schemes?

14:40:26 <Knud> shane: yes, there is the IETF scheme

Shane McCarron: yes, there is the IETF scheme

14:41:00 <NathanR> or skype:

Nathan Rixham: or skype:

14:41:56 <Knud> steven: but not everybody uses this registry. Like Apple.

Steven Pemberton: but not everybody uses this registry. Like Apple.

14:42:33 <Knud> ivan: people using unregistered URI schemes could still use the "normal" way of specifying URIs, via @resource

Ivan Herman: people using unregistered URI schemes could still use the "normal" way of specifying URIs, via @resource

14:43:31 <Knud> ACTION: shane to find reference to the IETF registry

ACTION: shane to find reference to the IETF registry

14:43:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-38 - Find reference to the IETF registry [on Shane McCarron - due 2010-10-07].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-38 - Find reference to the IETF registry [on Shane McCarron - due 2010-10-07].

14:43:35 <ShaneM> Information on registring URI schemes: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4395

Shane McCarron: Information on registring URI schemes: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4395

14:43:58 <ShaneM> close ACTION-38

Shane McCarron: close ACTION-38

14:43:58 <trackbot> ACTION-38 Find reference to the IETF registry closed

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-38 Find reference to the IETF registry closed

14:44:50 <Knud> steven: I would really like to find a general solution, not a hacky one

Steven Pemberton: I would really like to find a general solution, not a hacky one

14:46:49 <Knud> shane: we can still define a term to instruct the RDFa processor to interprete something as a URI

Shane McCarron: we can still define a term to instruct the RDFa processor to interprete something as a URI

14:47:19 <ivan> <meta property="og:asfasdf" datatype="rdfa:resource" content="http://sfsd" />

Ivan Herman: <meta property="og:asfasdf" datatype="rdfa:resource" content="http://sfsd" />

14:47:26 <ShaneM> <link property='og:lala' datatype='xv:thisIsAURI'>http://example.com</link>

Shane McCarron: <link property='og:lala' datatype='xv:thisIsAURI'>http://example.com</link>

14:48:15 <ivan> <link rel="og:lala" resource="http://example.com"/>

Ivan Herman: <link rel="og:lala" resource="http://example.com"/>

14:48:24 <Knud> ivan: this is probably just as difficult for the FB-esque community

Ivan Herman: this is probably just as difficult for the FB-esque community

14:49:05 <Knud> nathan: it's also not backwards compatible

Nathan Rixham: it's also not backwards compatible

14:51:31 <NathanR> q+

Nathan Rixham: q+

14:52:25 <Knud> shane: if the OGP had an RDFa profile, and if the profile could define that certain properties have their values interpreted as a URI?

Shane McCarron: if the OGP had an RDFa profile, and if the profile could define that certain properties have their values interpreted as a URI?

14:53:45 <Knud> ...: so we could invoke "follow-your-nose". the definition of og:fdhskfj could specify that it's value is an rdf:resource

...: so we could invoke "follow-your-nose". the definition of og:fdhskfj could specify that it's value is an rdf:resource

14:54:55 <ivan> ack NathanR

Ivan Herman: ack NathanR

14:54:55 <Knud> ivan: this is impossible to define in the current framework

Ivan Herman: this is impossible to define in the current framework

14:56:39 <Knud> nathan: long-term solution: a way for properties to define their ranges as needed here

Nathan Rixham: long-term solution: a way for properties to define their ranges as needed here

14:58:15 <ivan> zakim, drop me

Ivan Herman: zakim, drop me

14:58:15 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven

14:58:16 <Zakim> -NathanR

Zakim IRC Bot: -NathanR

14:58:18 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected

Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan is being disconnected

14:58:20 <Zakim> -Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan

14:58:22 <Zakim> -Knud

Zakim IRC Bot: -Knud

14:58:24 <Zakim> -ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM

14:58:26 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended

14:58:28 <Zakim> Attendees were Ivan, +1.612.217.aaaa, ShaneM, +1.441.592.aabb, NathanR, Knud, Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Ivan, +1.612.217.aaaa, ShaneM, +1.441.592.aabb, NathanR, Knud, Steven

14:59:23 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes

Ivan Herman: rrsagent, draft minutes

14:59:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-rdfa-minutes.html ivan

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-rdfa-minutes.html ivan



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This revision (#2) generated 2010-09-30 15:11:09 UTC by 'ivan', comments: None