IRC log of rdfa on 2010-09-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:16:18 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #rdfa

13:16:18 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-rdfa-irc

13:16:20 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

13:16:20 [Zakim]

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13:16:22 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 7332

13:16:22 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 44 minutes

13:16:23 [trackbot]

Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference

13:16:23 [trackbot]

Date: 30 September 2010

13:16:32 [ivan]

Chair: Ivan

13:16:40 [ivan]

Regrets: Manu, Mark

13:58:19 [ivan]

zakim, dial ivan-voip

13:58:19 [Zakim]

ok, ivan; the call is being made

13:58:20 [Zakim]

SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started

13:58:22 [Zakim]

+Ivan

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13:59:50 [ivan]

yes

14:00:15 [Steven__]

trackbot, start telcon

14:00:17 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

14:00:19 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 7332

14:00:19 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start now

14:00:20 [trackbot]

Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference

14:00:20 [trackbot]

Date: 30 September 2010

14:00:21 [Knud]

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14:00:37 [ivan]

zakim, who is here?

14:00:37 [Zakim]

I notice SW_RDFa()10:00AM has restarted

14:00:39 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Ivan

14:00:40 [Zakim]

On IRC I see Knud, NathanR, ShaneM, Steven__, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, trackbot

14:01:05 [Zakim]

+ +1.612.217.aaaa

14:01:08 [Zakim]

-Ivan

14:01:10 [Zakim]

+Ivan

14:01:13 [ShaneM]

zakim, aaaa is ShaneM

14:01:14 [Zakim]

+ShaneM; got it

14:01:39 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:01:56 [Zakim]

+ +1.441.592.aabb

14:02:03 [ivan]

zakim, IPcaller is Knuth

14:02:03 [Zakim]

+Knuth; got it

14:02:15 [NathanR]

zakim, aabb is NathanR

14:02:15 [Zakim]

+NathanR; got it

14:02:21 [Knud]

zakim, IPcaller is Knud

14:02:21 [Zakim]

sorry, Knud, I do not recognize a party named 'IPcaller'

14:02:33 [ivan]

zakim, Knuth is Knud

14:02:35 [Zakim]

+Knud; got it

14:02:39 [Steven__]

zakim, dial steven-617

14:02:51 [Zakim]

ok, Steven__; the call is being made

14:02:59 [Zakim]

+Steven

14:03:51 [Steven__]

zakim, who is on the phone?

14:04:03 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Ivan, ShaneM, Knud, NathanR, Steven

14:04:17 [ivan]

scribe: Knud

14:04:22 [ivan]

scribenick: Knud

14:05:44 [Knud]

Ivan: welcome to Nathan, we know him from the mailing list as an active contributor

14:05:59 [Knud]

...: Nathan joins as an invited expert

14:06:14 [ivan]

Topic: Issue 40

14:06:22 [ivan]

-> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/40

14:06:35 [Knud]

"Empty element should not create literals"

14:07:30 [ShaneM]

q+ to agree that the empty triples should be generated

14:07:35 [Knud]

Nathan: I think empty triples should be generated

14:07:36 [Steven__]

I agree

14:07:53 [Steven__]

zakim, mute shane

14:07:53 [Zakim]

ShaneM should now be muted

14:08:07 [Knud]

...: there might be situations where you _want_ an empty string, like not having a middle name

14:08:28 [ShaneM]

zakim, unmute ShaneM

14:08:28 [Zakim]

ShaneM should no longer be muted

14:08:30 [ivan]

q?

14:08:31 [Steven__]

ack Shane

14:08:31 [Zakim]

ShaneM, you wanted to agree that the empty triples should be generated

14:08:37 [ivan]

q+

14:08:38 [Knud]

...: this would be just moving the problem

14:08:43 [ivan]

ack ivan

14:08:53 [Steven__]

q+ Shane

14:09:31 [Knud]

ivan: it would still possible to generate an empty string with @content

14:09:52 [ivan]

ack ShaneM

14:10:16 [Steven__]

q+

14:10:20 [Steven__]

ack Shane

14:10:30 [ivan]

ack Steven__

14:10:30 [Knud]

shane: agree with Nathan - RDFa is just another serialisation, why should there be a special case for it?

14:11:06 [Knud]

steven: I also agree. It would be wrong to not create empty literals

14:11:15 [ivan]

PROPOSED: empty elements should generate empty literals (Issue-40)

14:11:22 [Steven__]

+1

14:11:27 [ivan]

+1

14:11:27 [NathanR]

+1

14:12:08 [ivan]

PROPOSED: not to accept the change request in Issue-40

14:12:09 [Steven__]

+1

14:12:14 [ivan]

+1

14:12:18 [NathanR]

+1

14:12:23 [ivan]

RESOLVED: not to accept the change request in Issue-40

14:12:56 [Knud]

ivan: not formally closed, because too many active people missing

14:13:02 [ivan]

TOPIC: Issue-35

14:13:10 [ivan]

-> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/35

14:13:15 [Knud]

"Consider relationship between LinkTypes in RDFa and the IETF LinkType registry"

14:14:39 [Knud]

shane: there is work having to do with http headers. creating a registry for values of @rel

14:15:13 [Knud]

...: however, what we do is slightly different than usually.

14:15:30 [Knud]

...: our values of @rel are terms, and is extenable

14:15:40 [Knud]

...: hostlanguages can define their own terms

14:15:44 [ivan]

q+

14:15:54 [ivan]

ack ivan

14:16:03 [Knud]

...: hostlanguages could worry about linking, registering, etc. those terms with the IETF

14:16:24 [Knud]

ivan: however, we plan to define a default profile (of terms) for XHTML

14:17:21 [Knud]

shane: exactly. We define terms, can look for correlations, but we should not have a dependency to the IETF

14:18:01 [ivan]

PROPOSED: RDFa does not introduce an explicit dependency on the LinkTypes registry (Issue-35)

14:18:15 [ShaneM]

+1

14:18:18 [Knud]

+1

14:18:18 [ivan]

+1

14:18:20 [Steven__]

+1

14:18:23 [NathanR]

+1

14:18:45 [Knud]

knud: should we explain that in the specs?

14:19:25 [ivan]

RESOLVED: RDFa does not introduce an explicit dependency on the LinkTypes registry (Issue-35)

14:19:31 [Knud]

ivan: that's probably not necessary

14:20:00 [Knud]

...: it was Manu who raised this initially

14:20:16 [Knud]

shane: on a related note - this has to do with case-sensitivity of terms

14:20:27 [Knud]

...: in the IETF, they are case-sensitive

14:21:37 [Knud]

...: in RDFa core, they are case-insensitive

14:21:55 [ivan]

Topic: URI strings in literal

14:22:13 [Knud]

"Any plain literal that does not have a (possibly empty) @datatype that matches the regex for a URL MUST be treated as an IRI object in RDFa."

14:22:56 [Knud]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Sep/0127.html

14:23:41 [Knud]

ivan: many people do not make a difference between URIs appearing as a literal, or as an attribute value of special attributes

14:24:53 [Steven__]

q+

14:24:57 [ivan]

ack Steven__

14:25:58 [Knud]

steven: can we not apply a datatype to make a literal a URI?

14:26:05 [Knud]

ivan: this is not possible at the moment

14:26:58 [Knud]

...: there is currently no corresponding xsd datatype

14:27:08 [NathanR]

q+

14:27:47 [Knud]

...: and we cannot use "anyURI"

14:28:36 [Knud]

...: there are legitimate cases where I want to have a literal, a string, which conforms to the URI spec

14:28:56 [ivan]

ack NathanR

14:29:05 [Steven__]

q+

14:29:12 [Knud]

...: anyway, this would not help people like FB, because they won't ask their developers to use this datatype

14:29:54 [ivan]

ack Steven__

14:30:01 [ShaneM]

q+ to ask about datatypes

14:30:20 [Knud]

nathan: we should go with the common case. basically agree with the proposal

14:30:56 [NathanR]

q+

14:31:03 [NathanR]

q-

14:31:13 [Knud]

steven: this means that, every time we have a non-datatype string, we have to check if the string is an acceptable URI

14:31:18 [ShaneM]

fubar == xsd:anyURI

14:31:29 [Knud]

...: problem: "fubar" is an acceptable relative URI

14:31:59 [Knud]

ivan: we may have to restrict to absolute URIs

14:32:28 [NathanR]

../foo & iso: & "" (0-length-string) all == xsd:anyURI

14:32:39 [NathanR]

relative0uri*

14:32:40 [ivan]

ack ShaneM

14:32:40 [Zakim]

ShaneM, you wanted to ask about datatypes

14:32:43 [ivan]

q?

14:32:45 [Knud]

steven: there would still be lots of things that might be parsed as a URI. lots of string with a colon in it, for example

14:33:45 [Knud]

shane: I also see this problem. Also, we will probably need to allow relative URIs. e.g., resource="#foo", resource="picture.jpg"

14:33:45 [Steven__]

<span property=my:datatype>xsd:integer</span>¨

14:34:02 [Steven__]

xsd:integer would be seen as a URI

14:34:38 [NathanR]

<span property="foaf:name">nathan</span> <--- would be a valid uri ref

14:34:51 [ivan]

<meta property="og:sfdssf" content="http://....." />

14:34:52 [Steven__]

Not for an abs URI

14:35:35 [NathanR]

q+

14:36:09 [ivan]

ack NathanR

14:36:29 [Steven__]

q+

14:36:37 [ivan]

ack Steven__

14:36:50 [Steven__]

xsd:integer

14:36:52 [Knud]

nathan: I also agree this is a problem. maybe less of a problem with absolute URIs

14:37:21 [ShaneM]

mailto:shane

14:37:22 [Knud]

steven: but even absolute URIs (that are meant to be URIs) are very hard to detect

14:37:32 [ShaneM]

urn:...

14:37:43 [Knud]

...: isbn:43290489fj is an absolute URI

14:38:09 [Knud]

ivan: so, we might have to agree on a family of URI schemes that have to be matched

14:40:12 [Knud]

...: is there an official registry of schemes?

14:40:26 [Knud]

shane: yes, there is the IETF scheme

14:41:00 [NathanR]

skype:

14:41:56 [Knud]

steven: but not everybody uses this registry. Like Apple.

14:42:33 [Knud]

ivan: people using unregistered URI schemes could still use the "normal" way of specifying URIs, via @resource

14:43:31 [Knud]

ACTION: shane to find reference to the IETF registry

14:43:31 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-38 - Find reference to the IETF registry [on Shane McCarron - due 2010-10-07].

14:43:35 [ShaneM]

Information on registring URI schemes: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4395

14:43:49 [ShaneM]

ACTION-38: closed

14:43:49 [trackbot]

ACTION-38 Find reference to the IETF registry notes added

14:43:49 [trackbot]

If you meant to close ACTION-38, please use 'close ACTION-38'

14:43:58 [ShaneM]

close ACTION-38

14:43:58 [trackbot]

ACTION-38 Find reference to the IETF registry closed

14:44:50 [Knud]

steven: I would really like to find a general solution, not a hacky one

14:46:49 [Knud]

shane: we can still define a term to instruct the RDFa processor to interprete something as a URI

14:47:19 [ivan]

<meta property="og:asfasdf" datatype="rdfa:resource" content="http://sfsd" />

14:47:26 [ShaneM]

<link property='og:lala' datatype='xv:thisIsAURI'>http://example.com</link>

14:48:15 [ivan]

<link rel="og:lala" resource="http://example.com"/>

14:48:24 [Knud]

ivan: this is probably just as difficult for the FB-esque community

14:49:05 [Knud]

nathan: it's also not backwards compatible

14:51:31 [NathanR]

q+

14:52:25 [Knud]

shane: if the OGP had an RDFa profile, and if the profile could define that certain properties have their values interpreted as a URI?

14:53:45 [Knud]

...: so we could invoke "follow-your-nose". the definition of og:fdhskfj could specify that it's value is an rdf:resource

14:54:55 [ivan]

ack NathanR

14:54:55 [Knud]

ivan: this is impossible to define in the current framework

14:56:39 [Knud]

nathan: long-term solution: a way for properties to define their ranges as needed here

14:58:15 [ivan]

zakim, drop me

14:58:15 [Zakim]

-Steven

14:58:16 [Zakim]

-NathanR

14:58:18 [Zakim]

Ivan is being disconnected

14:58:20 [Zakim]

-Ivan

14:58:22 [Zakim]

-Knud

14:58:24 [Zakim]

-ShaneM

14:58:26 [Zakim]

SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended

14:58:28 [Zakim]

Attendees were Ivan, +1.612.217.aaaa, ShaneM, +1.441.592.aabb, NathanR, Knud, Steven

14:59:23 [ivan]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:59:23 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-rdfa-minutes.html ivan

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