Chatlog 2010-09-30

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13:16:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
13:16:18 <RRSAgent> logging to
13:16:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:16:20 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa
13:16:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332
13:16:22 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 44 minutes
13:16:23 <trackbot> Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference
13:16:23 <trackbot> Date: 30 September 2010
13:16:32 <ivan> Chair: Ivan
13:16:40 <ivan> Regrets: Manu, MarkB
13:58:19 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
13:58:19 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
13:58:20 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started
13:58:22 <Zakim> +Ivan
13:58:49 <Steven__> Steven__ has joined #rdfa
13:59:10 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
13:59:41 <webr3> webr3 has joined #rdfa
13:59:50 <ivan> yes
14:00:15 <Steven__> trackbot, start telcon
14:00:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:00:19 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332
14:00:19 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start now
14:00:20 <trackbot> Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference
14:00:20 <trackbot> Date: 30 September 2010
14:00:21 <Knud> Knud has joined #rdfa
14:00:37 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
14:00:37 <Zakim> I notice SW_RDFa()10:00AM has restarted
14:00:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ivan
14:00:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see Knud, NathanR, ShaneM, Steven__, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, trackbot
14:01:05 <Zakim> + +1.612.217.aaaa
14:01:08 <Zakim> -Ivan
14:01:10 <Zakim> +Ivan
14:01:13 <ShaneM> zakim, aaaa is ShaneM
14:01:14 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
14:01:39 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:01:56 <Zakim> + +1.441.592.aabb
14:02:03 <ivan> zakim, IPcaller is Knuth
14:02:03 <Zakim> +Knuth; got it
14:02:15 <NathanR> zakim, aabb is NathanR
14:02:15 <Zakim> +NathanR; got it
14:02:21 <Knud> zakim, IPcaller is Knud
14:02:21 <Zakim> sorry, Knud, I do not recognize a party named 'IPcaller'
14:02:33 <ivan> zakim, Knuth is Knud
14:02:35 <Zakim> +Knud; got it
14:02:39 <Steven__> zakim, dial steven-617
14:02:51 <Zakim> ok, Steven__; the call is being made
14:02:59 <Zakim> +Steven
14:03:51 <Steven__> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:04:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ivan, ShaneM, Knud, NathanR, Steven
14:04:17 <ivan> scribe: Knud
14:04:22 <ivan> scribenick: Knud
14:05:44 <Knud> Ivan: welcome to Nathan, we know him from the mailing list as an active contributor
14:05:59 <Knud> ...: Nathan joins as an invited expert
14:06:14 <ivan> Topic: Issue 40
14:06:22 <ivan> ->
14:06:35 <Knud> "Empty element should not create literals"
14:07:30 <ShaneM> q+ to agree that the empty triples should be generated
14:07:35 <Knud> Nathan: I think empty triples should be generated
14:07:36 <Steven__> I agree
14:07:53 <Steven__> zakim, mute shane
14:07:53 <Zakim> ShaneM should now be muted
14:08:07 <Knud> ...: there might be situations where you _want_ an empty string, like not having a middle name
14:08:28 <ShaneM> zakim, unmute ShaneM
14:08:28 <Zakim> ShaneM should no longer be muted
14:08:30 <ivan> q?
14:08:31 <Steven__> ack Shane
14:08:31 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to agree that the empty triples should be generated
14:08:37 <ivan> q+
14:08:38 <Knud> ...: this would be just moving the problem
14:08:43 <ivan> ack ivan
14:08:53 <Steven__> q+ Shane
14:09:31 <Knud> ivan: it would still possible to generate an empty string with @content
14:09:52 <ivan> ack ShaneM 
14:10:16 <Steven__> q+
14:10:20 <Steven__> ack Shane
14:10:30 <ivan> ack Steven__ 
14:10:30 <Knud> shane: agree with Nathan - RDFa is just another serialisation, why should there be a special case for it?
14:11:06 <Knud> steven: I also agree. It would be wrong to not create empty literals
14:11:15 <ivan> PROPOSED: empty elements should generate empty literals (Issue-40)
14:11:22 <Steven__> +1
14:11:27 <ivan> +1
14:11:27 <NathanR> +1
14:12:08 <ivan> PROPOSED: not to accept the change request in Issue-40
14:12:09 <Steven__> +1
14:12:14 <ivan> +1
14:12:18 <NathanR> +1
14:12:23 <ivan> RESOLVED: not to accept the change request in Issue-40
14:12:56 <Knud> ivan: not formally closed, because too many active people missing
14:13:02 <ivan> TOPIC: Issue-35
14:13:10 <ivan> ->
14:13:15 <Knud> "Consider relationship between LinkTypes in RDFa and the IETF LinkType registry"
14:14:39 <Knud> shane: there is work having to do with http headers. creating a registry for values of @rel
14:15:13 <Knud> ...: however, what we do is slightly different than usually. 
14:15:30 <Knud> ...: our values of @rel are terms, and is extenable
14:15:40 <Knud> ...: hostlanguages can define their own terms
14:15:44 <ivan> q+
14:15:54 <ivan> ack ivan
14:16:03 <Knud> ...: hostlanguages could worry about linking, registering, etc. those terms with the IETF
14:16:24 <Knud> ivan: however, we plan to define a default profile (of terms) for XHTML
14:17:21 <Knud> shane: exactly. We define terms, can look for correlations, but we should not have a dependency to the IETF
14:18:01 <ivan> PROPOSED: RDFa does not introduce an explicit dependency on the LinkTypes registry (Issue-35)
14:18:15 <ShaneM> +1
14:18:18 <Knud> +1
14:18:18 <ivan> +1
14:18:20 <Steven__> +1
14:18:23 <NathanR> +1
14:18:45 <Knud> knud: should we explain that in the specs?
14:19:25 <ivan> RESOLVED: RDFa does not introduce an explicit dependency on the LinkTypes registry (Issue-35)
14:19:31 <Knud> ivan: that's probably not necessary
14:20:00 <Knud> ...: it was Manu who raised this initially
14:20:16 <Knud> shane: on a related note - this has to do with case-sensitivity of terms
14:20:27 <Knud> ...: in the IETF, they are case-sensitive
14:21:37 <Knud> ...: in RDFa core, they are case-insensitive
14:21:55 <ivan> Topic: URI strings in literal
14:22:13 <Knud> "Any plain literal that does not have a (possibly empty) @datatype that matches the regex for a URL MUST be treated as an IRI object in RDFa."
14:22:56 <Knud>
14:23:41 <Knud> ivan: many people do not make a difference between URIs appearing as a literal, or as an attribute value of special attributes
14:24:53 <Steven__> q+
14:24:57 <ivan> ack Steven__ 
14:25:58 <Knud> steven: can we not apply a datatype to make a literal a URI?
14:26:05 <Knud> ivan: this is not possible at the moment
14:26:58 <Knud> ...: there is currently no corresponding xsd datatype
14:27:08 <NathanR> q+
14:27:47 <Knud> ...: and we cannot use "anyURI"
14:28:36 <Knud> ...: there are legitimate cases where I want to have a literal, a string, which conforms to the URI spec
14:28:56 <ivan> ack NathanR 
14:29:05 <Steven__> q+
14:29:12 <Knud> ...: anyway, this would not help people like FB, because they won't ask their developers to use this datatype
14:29:54 <ivan> ack Steven__ 
14:30:01 <ShaneM> q+ to ask about datatypes
14:30:20 <Knud> nathan: we should go with the common case. basically agree with the proposal
14:30:56 <NathanR> q+
14:31:03 <NathanR> q-
14:31:13 <Knud> steven: this means that, every time we have a non-datatype string, we have to check if the string is an acceptable URI
14:31:18 <ShaneM> fubar == xsd\:anyURI
14:31:29 <Knud> ...: problem: "fubar" is an acceptable relative URI
14:31:59 <Knud> ivan: we may have to restrict to absolute URIs
14:32:28 <NathanR> ../foo & iso: & "" (0-length-string) all == xsd:anyURI
14:32:39 <NathanR> relative0uri*
14:32:40 <ivan> ack ShaneM 
14:32:40 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask about datatypes
14:32:43 <ivan> q?
14:32:45 <Knud> steven: there would still be lots of things that might be parsed as a URI. lots of string with a colon in it, for example
14:33:45 <Knud> shane: I also see this problem. Also, we will probably need to allow relative URIs. e.g., resource="#foo", resource="picture.jpg"
14:33:45 <Steven__> <span property=my:datatype>xsd:integer</span>¨
14:34:02 <Steven__> then xsd:integer would be seen as a URI
14:34:38 <NathanR> <span property="foaf:name">nathan</span>  <--- would be a valid uri ref
14:34:51 <ivan> <meta property="og:sfdssf" content="http://....." />
14:34:52 <Steven__> Not for an abs URI
14:35:35 <NathanR> q+
14:36:09 <ivan> ack NathanR 
14:36:29 <Steven__> q+
14:36:37 <ivan> ack Steven__ 
14:36:50 <Steven__> see xsd:integer
14:36:52 <Knud> nathan: I also agree this is a problem. maybe less of a problem with absolute URIs
14:37:21 <ShaneM> for example mailto:shane
14:37:22 <Knud> steven: but even absolute URIs (that are meant to be URIs) are very hard to detect 
14:37:32 <ShaneM> for example urn:...
14:37:43 <Knud> ...: isbn:43290489fj is an absolute URI
14:38:09 <Knud> ivan: so, we might have to agree on a family of URI schemes that have to be matched
14:40:12 <Knud> ...: is there an official registry of schemes?
14:40:26 <Knud> shane: yes, there is the IETF scheme
14:41:00 <NathanR> or skype:
14:41:56 <Knud> steven: but not everybody uses this registry. Like Apple.
14:42:33 <Knud> ivan: people using unregistered URI schemes could still use the "normal" way of specifying URIs, via @resource
14:43:31 <Knud> ACTION: shane to find reference to the IETF registry
14:43:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-38 - Find reference to the IETF registry [on Shane McCarron - due 2010-10-07].
14:43:35 <ShaneM> Information on registring URI schemes:
14:43:58 <ShaneM> close ACTION-38
14:43:58 <trackbot> ACTION-38 Find reference to the IETF registry closed
14:44:50 <Knud> steven: I would really like to find a general solution, not a hacky one
14:46:49 <Knud> shane: we can still define a term to instruct the RDFa processor to interprete something as a URI
14:47:19 <ivan> <meta property="og:asfasdf" datatype="rdfa:resource" content="http://sfsd" />
14:47:26 <ShaneM> <link property='og:lala' datatype='xv:thisIsAURI'></link>
14:48:15 <ivan> <link rel="og:lala" resource=""/>
14:48:24 <Knud> ivan: this is probably just as difficult for the FB-esque community
14:49:05 <Knud> nathan: it's also not backwards compatible
14:51:31 <NathanR> q+
14:52:25 <Knud> shane: if the OGP had an RDFa profile, and if the profile could define that certain properties have their values interpreted as a URI?
14:53:45 <Knud> ...: so we could invoke "follow-your-nose". the definition of og:fdhskfj could specify that it's value is an rdf:resource
14:54:55 <ivan> ack NathanR 
14:54:55 <Knud> ivan: this is impossible to define in the current framework
14:56:39 <Knud> nathan: long-term solution: a way for properties to define their ranges as needed here
14:58:15 <ivan> zakim, drop me
14:58:15 <Zakim> -Steven
14:58:16 <Zakim> -NathanR
14:58:18 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
14:58:20 <Zakim> -Ivan
14:58:22 <Zakim> -Knud
14:58:24 <Zakim> -ShaneM
14:58:26 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended
14:58:28 <Zakim> Attendees were Ivan, +1.612.217.aaaa, ShaneM, +1.441.592.aabb, NathanR, Knud, Steven
14:59:23 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:59:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate ivan