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<trackbot> Date: 24 February 2010
<davy> scribenick: erik
Accept the minutes at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html
<davy> scribenick: davy
Erik: charter extension: everything fine, but milestones need to be adjusted
<scribe> ACTION: raphael to adjust the milestones in the charter [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - raphael
<raphael> ah, thanks :-)
<raphael> ACTION: troncy to adjust the milestones in the charter [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-145 - Adjust the milestones in the charter [on Raphaël Troncy - due 2010-03-03].
<raphael> ... actually on the group front page since we cannot change the charter, but the charter refers to the group home page for the changes
<trackbot> ACTION-143 -- Silvia Pfeiffer to move 5.1.5 into a new section -- due 2010-02-24 -- OPEN
<trackbot> ACTION-144 -- Silvia Pfeiffer to move the section 5.1.1 to the top -- due 2010-02-24 -- OPEN
<silvia> not done yet
<silvia> neither that one
<silvia> I promised it for F2F
<erik> ok, actions still going on
erik: status about changes in the header syntax?
yves: made modifications in the
wiki regarding philip's remarks
... only do it in the spec if we switch back to ABNF
jack: I'm fine with either ABNF or EBNF
yves: I have tools for ABNF only
jack: no reason why we switched to EBNF, I don't see an advantage to use EBNF
<silvia> I don't mind either - if you prefer to switch back to ABNF, go for it
<silvia> I think Philip found it easier to write, but that doesn't have to influence everyone else
jack: if Yves prefers ABNF, then I also prefer ABNF
yves: will continue in ABNF
... also create a section where all the ABNF is located together
... having a single view of the grammar
erik: propose to use ABNF to represent the grammar
<jackjansen> PROPOSAL: dtddadada??? Ok, +1 :-)
<jackjansen> I know...
PROPOSAL: use ABNF to represent the grammar, because of the existence of tools
RESOLUTION: ABNF will be used to represent the grammar
yves: a-126 is still
... should be able to do it today
<silvia> while you're at it, can you look at writing ABNF for the HTTP headers, too?
<Yves> that's the plan
erik: a-135 is still ongoing
jack: a-137 is also ongoing
<silvia> see note in 5.2.2 and 5.2.3
<trackbot> ISSUE-5 -- Handling spatial cropping requires information at client-side -- OPEN
erik: we must asap reach LC
... if this is only with the temporal dimension, so be it
<jackjansen> silvia, can you re-raise in AOB?
<trackbot> ACTION-118 -- Michael Hausenblas to come up with individual 'normal' test cases (+/- 20) -- due 2009-10-07 -- OPEN
<raphael> I second silvia question, re: quotes in the syntax
<raphael> Silvia, please, write your comments not in /me
<silvia> re: ABNF - are we dropping the quotes on the fragment values?
<silvia> just FYI - the "s" in npt dimension has already been dropped in spec
<jackjansen> silvia, we first continue with 4, then get to 3.5
michael: a-118 continues untill next week
<trackbot> ACTION-108 -- Michael Hausenblas to add the missing test cases in corrib -- due 2009-11-16 -- OPEN
<mhausenblas> close ACTION-108
<trackbot> ACTION-108 Add the missing test cases in corrib closed
michael: we can review them one by one
<silvia> indeed - I was going to ask if people had had the time to check out those test cases for the time dimension
jack: are the test cases already in a state that we can see that all the boundary cases can be seen
<silvia> can we focus on time dimension for now and check there that we have all the boundary cases?
<erik> michael: focus is on temporal dimension only
michael: not totally sure, there might be at least a couple of test cases that are not yet covered
jack: I will look at it
<silvia> in my list I abstracted away from concrete values into t=a,b
<silvia> then I looked at the values that a and b can take compared to each other and compared to start, end of file
<silvia> in this way, I tried capturing all the possibilities
<silvia> these are all no errors:
<silvia> * Non-errors: b>=a
<silvia> t=a,b -> 200: set playback to a-b
<silvia> t=a, -> 200: set playback to a-end
<silvia> t=,b -> 200: set playback to start-b
<silvia> t=a,b with a=b -> 200: set playback to a
<silvia> t=a,b with a<start -> 200: set playback to start-b
<silvia> t=a,b with a>end -> 200: set playback to end
<silvia> t=a,b with b>end -> 200: set playback to a-end
<silvia> t=a,b with b<start -> 200: set playback to start
michael: in the F2F, we should make a final decision regarding the test cases of temporal fragments
jack: I missed b > end
<mhausenblas> Michael: will add t=a,b with b>end and t=a,b with b<start
jack: also miss b<a
<jackjansen> silvia, both
<silvia> it's in the list above
<mhausenblas> we're looking at corrib ATM, but jackjansen referred to in general
<silvia> b>end is, the other is in an error list
<silvia> * non-existent
<silvia> example: t=b,a with b>a (e.g. t=20,10)
<silvia> -> 200: ignore fragment
michael: it's easy to add/edit
test cases in corrib
... everyone can do it
<silvia> and I also have this one that we haven't had before:
<silvia> * Validity errors: value cannot be parsed for dimension
<silvia> example: t=asdf
<silvia> -> 200: ignore fragment (retrieve full resource, but with this adapted URL)
<silvia> note: browsers already do this
<silvia> further, I think we need to change TC0002
<silvia> * TC0002: empty time segment - npt (see also above)
<silvia> examples: t=0,0 ; t=3,3
<silvia> -> 200: retrieve whatever the browser needs to set up playback and
<silvia> set the playback position to the offset
<silvia> NOTE: this is different to what we currently have at
<mhausenblas> silivia, you're aware of that you can edit TC in corrib yourself?
<scribe> ACTION: Jack to identify and add in corrib any missing test cases for temporal fragments [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-146 - Identify and add in corrib any missing test cases for temporal fragments [on Jack Jansen - due 2010-03-03].
<silvia> I thought we are discussing here whether we agree on those test cases and their results
<silvia> the reason for my questions / list was that I wanted these in the spec as well as in corrib, so developers can refer to it
<mhausenblas> silvia, I'll change the ownership re TC10-17 to you soon
<erik> michael: 'contributor' = 'one who raised the TC'
<silvia> hmm, according to http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/TestCases they are multi dimensional - wasn't really focused on that yet
<mhausenblas> ACTION: mhausenb to add all MF WG members to corrib [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-147 - Add all MF WG members to corrib [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2010-03-03].
<mhausenblas> ACTION: mhausenb to add a copy TC functionality [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-148 - Add a copy TC functionality [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2010-03-03].
<mhausenblas> ACTION: mhausenb to come up with a fix for overview vs. edit single TC [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-149 - Come up with a fix for overview vs. edit single TC [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2010-03-03].
jack: if we change the syntax, then someone needs to be responsible to modify the related test cases
<mhausenblas> Michael: there is also an issue tracker for corrib in case you find a bug or want to request a feature
<mhausenblas> ... http://bitbucket.org/mhausenblas/corrib/issues/?status=new&status=open
erik: do we keep the quotes around track names and ids?
jack: percent escapes of ? and
& seems to work in the browser
... which indicates that we do need quotes (on condition that we have percent escaping)
<erik> ... reinvestigation is still needed!
<silvia> which philip introduced into the spec
<erik> jack: syntax of ? and # should be the same
jack: we should first investigate how percent encoding works
<erik> jack: what about client vs serverside ... should be the same at both sides
<mhausenblas> and http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-2.4
yves: before doing percent-encoding, the url is split up
<jackjansen> If I compare section 2.1 to what I posted to the mailing list then it seems the behaviousr I saw is wrong.
<erik> yves: URI-syntax is not clear on what should be returned on client or server .... therefore no ambiguity if we use quotes
<jackjansen> 2.4 states that even more clearly
<silvia> according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percent-encoding, last section, only the names and values of a CGI query are encoded
yves: quotes remove ambiguity
jack: so youtube is not compliant to RFC3986?
<jackjansen> This works: http://www.youtube.com/watch%3fv=FwJduPtCvSM%26feature=rec-r2-2r-1-HM
<jackjansen> and it shouldn't
<mhausenblas> my friend re URIs is http://www.websitedev.de/temp/rfc3986-check.html.gz
<jackjansen> So, it seems that rfc3986 isn't followed by at least one major site
<mhausenblas> lets you check stuff quite nicely
<silvia> I think the "Under normal circumstances" part is important
<silvia> I think in essence rfc3986 lets every server do what it wants
<jackjansen> got it
<silvia> link above - http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-2.4
<silvia> but it suggests parsing before percent encoding
<silvia> to make it easier for the server to determine the components
<silvia> doesn't stop a server from trying to interpret a url that has more than just the components url encoded
<silvia> I think we can safely prescribe url encoding the way Philip has currently done it and it follows section 2.4
<jackjansen> I am not sure I agree. I am not convinced that we can remove the quotes for queries.
<silvia> that is a different matter altoghether, I think
<silvia> what problem do the quotes solve?
<jackjansen> escaping ampersands
<silvia> I seem to remember having had a problem where the quotes introduced more confusion than helped, but cannot now find it
<silvia> anyway, I guess we're out of time :)
<scribe> ACTION: Erik to summarize the discussion on the quotes in a mail or on the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-150 - Summarize the discussion on the quotes in a mail or on the wiki [on Erik Mannens - due 2010-03-03].
<silvia> thanks everyone!
<silvia> btw: we're only talking about quotes for track and id dimensions, right?
<silvia> davy: is your implementation using quotes?
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/silivia/silvia/ Succeeded: s/p// Succeeded: s/don't/do/ Succeeded: s/escaping/encoding/ Found ScribeNick: erik Found ScribeNick: davy Inferring Scribes: erik, davy Scribes: erik, davy ScribeNicks: erik, davy Default Present: +0329331aaaa, mhausenblas, Yves, Erik&Davy, +31.20.592.aabb, jackjansen, +329331aacc Present: yves michael davy erik silvia Regrets: raphael Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Feb/0072.html Found Date: 24 Feb 2010 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html People with action items: erik jack mhausenb raphael troncy[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]