02 Feb 2010

See also: IRC log


Mike_Dean, csma, DaveReynolds, LeoraMorgenstern, Sandro, ChrisW, Harold, Gary, MichaelKifer, +1.617.299.aaaa, AdrianP
StellaMitchell, JosDeBruijn
Mike Dean


<csma> rrsaganet, make log public

<csma> agendum+ admin

<csma> agendum+ Liaisons

<csma> agendum+ Actions review

<csma> agendum+ Public comments

<csma> agendum+ xml:base in RIF/XML

<csma> agendum+ Changes in PRD

<csma> agendum+ Implementations

<csma> agendum+ Test cases

<csma> agendum+ AOB (next meeting)

<csma> Scribe: Mike Dean

<csma> Scribenick: Mike_Dean

<mdean> scribenick: mdean

<csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Jan/att-0023/rif-mins-19-Jan-2010.html

<csma> PROPOSED: approve minutes from Jan 19

<csma> RESOLVED: approve minutes from Jan 19

no amendments to agenda


<csma> next item


Sandro: SPARQL has a new round of working drafts

ChrisW: status of contacting OWL 2 RL people of implementing SWC

<ChrisW> ACTION: chris to contact OWL2-RL folks about SWC [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/02-rif-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-973 - Contact OWL2-RL folks about SWC [on Christopher Welty - due 2010-02-09].

Sandro: SPARQL might be last round before Last Call
... started from a different place than RIF

<csma> next item

<csma> next item

Actions review

ChrisW recording action updates

<ChrisW> close action-972

<trackbot> ACTION-972 Update core, bld, and fld xml schema to reflect resolution on imports closed

close action-879

<trackbot> ACTION-879 Contact SRI. closed

close action-880

<trackbot> ACTION-880 Contact David Jones (Boeing). closed

<csma> next item

no new public comments

Public comments

no news on public comments

<csma> next item

csma: public comment from Thomas Krekeler

<csma> > = xml:base =

<csma> > The xml:base specification ([4]) does not define on which URIs contained

<csma> in

<csma> > an XML document the resolving mechanism against their base URIs applies.

<csma> > What about

<csma> > * the 'type' attribute of 'Const',

<csma> > * the content of the 'location' element,

<csma> > * the content of the 'Const' element if its type is xsd:anyURI or

<csma> rif:IRI?

<Harold> Pl have a look at our 28 Nov 2009 email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Nov/0065.html

Harold: independently identified same problem in November
... Const only, per email, never got a reply
... up to spec, RIF handling of xml:base modeled after that in RDF spec
... Const is no longer used in location

Sandro: location is probably most important place to use xml:base

csma: makes perfect sense for location, unsure about Const

Harold: earlier also used Const for active iris

Sandro: in linked data, all IRIs point to real documents

Harold: we do allow relative IRIs
... presentation base uses xml:base - only place we use an attribute

Sandro: BLD spec only mentions "relative" (twice) w.r.t. xml:base

<sandro> sandro: I read the BLD spec to not saying anything about relative IRIs in the XML, and suggest that in PS->XML you use Base to expand it.

<sandro> csma: lexical space of rif:iri is ABSOLUTE IRIs. So there is no point to xml:base.

<Harold> ""The Base directive provides yet another shortcut: it applies to all relative IRIs, such as "Mary"^^rif:iri and <John>. The Base directive expands these relative IRIs to "http://example.com/people#Mary"^^rif:iri and "http://example.com/people#John"^^rif:iri, respectively

<Harold> (http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/BLD#Overview)

<sandro> DaveReynolds: the mapping from the XML syntax to the lexical space is where you do absolutizing.

DaveReynolds: no mention of xml:base is probably a bug

<Harold> "While the Import directive is handled by the presentation-to-XML syntax mapping, the Prefix and Base directives are not. Instead, these directives should be handled by expanding the associated shortcuts (compact URIs)."

<Harold> (http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/BLD#Mapping_of_the_Rule_Language)

mapping from presentation to xml:base in text, but not in table

<sandro> PROPOSED: We clarify that relative IRIs are allowed in RIF syntaxes (in Const rif:iri, datatypes, location, and profile), and that xml:base is used in making them absolute; the absolute form is seen and used internally, so that's the lexical space.

<sandro> PROPOSED: We clarify that relative IRIs are allowed in RIF syntaxes (anywhere IRIs are allowed, including Const rif:iri, symbol spaces, location, and profile), and that xml:base is used in making them absolute; the absolute form is seen and used internally, so that's the lexical space.

csma: also question about xml:lang - will send note to Harold and Michael

<ChrisW> +1

<LeoraMorgenstern> +1`

<DaveReynolds> +1


<sandro> +1

<AdrianP> +1

<Gary> +0

<Harold> 0 (it's already quite clear)

<sandro> RESOLVED: We clarify that relative IRIs are allowed in RIF syntaxes (anywhere IRIs are allowed, including Const rif:iri, symbol spaces, location, and profile), and that xml:base is used in making them absolute; the absolute form is seen and used internally, so that's the lexical space.

csma: not clear in PRD, at least

ACTION csma clarify in PRD

<trackbot> Created ACTION-974 - Clarify in PRD [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2010-02-09].

action Sandro ask Axel to clarify xml:base in DTB

<trackbot> Created ACTION-975 - Ask Axel to clarify xml:base in DTB [on Sandro Hawke - due 2010-02-09].

<csma> next item

csma: PRD had 2 meetings since last RIF telecon
... agreed that refraction and conflict resolution in PRD had bugs
... didn't reflect how various rule systems work
... 1 big change in definition of refraction and conflict resolution
... condition of rules are matched only after each execution block - should be after each atomic action
... consequence: modification can no longer be atomic
... expose intermediate state in PRD semantics
... clarify that modify is a compound action
... 3rd point: at least 1 case not accounted in rule instance - disjunctive condition where disjuncts differ by the value of some constant
... can't distinguish just by variable bindings
... not clear how to handle editorially
... normalization step may not be sufficient

Gary: read latest email - now believe it is sufficient

csma: least change to PRD spec
... correction - would like to not require another Last Call
... sure that it will work because it's less abstract and closer to existing engines and RETE algorithm
... less likely to cover non-RETE engine
... would like to use new action retract_all
... a real addition - not sure whether this would require Last Call

Gary: modify is retract_all followed by assert

csma: will talk to Mark Proctor later today
... still following thread
... do we need resolution or something else?

ChrisW: don't see how to avoid another Last Call
... would require changing implementations
... could use shortest allowable time and try to catch up

Sandro: 3 weeks is the minimum

csma: new version should be finished by end of this week

Sandro: need WG resolution to support publication

csma: have a version that's almost ready

<scribe> ... new definition of rule instance is quite complex

UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: Gary has much simpler version that should be used instead
... would only be an editorial change later

ChrisW: have a short telecon next Tuesday to pass resolution
... 15 minutes just to pass resolution
... can then publish Tuesday or Thursday
... 3 weeks from that date - early March

Sandro: don't need CR period - can skip given implementations

csma: need to complete implementations

ChrisW: try to get all specs in sync

Gary: remove modified no loop test case

Sandro: definiitely need test cases

csma: can work on test cases in parallel

ChrisW: pass all resolutions next week
... last call and updated test cases

csma: add RetractAll as well

action csma send email today regarding telecon next week

<trackbot> Created ACTION-976 - Send email today regarding telecon next week [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2010-02-09].

<csma> next item

csma: where are we, what are we missing
... happy with current BLD implementations?

Sandro: partial test report from Gary

will provide test report for SILK - mixed results

scribe: SILK translated to FLORA 2

csma: no test results from Ontoprise
... no news from Jos deRoo
... STI Innsbruck not planning to do any more - no test report

Sandro: need implementation reports, but test results not required

csma: but more credible with (even partial) test results
... PRD has IBM/ILOG and Oracle
... will ask Mark Proctor about JBoss
... Core covered by BLD and PRD
... FLD has Core Answer Set Programming Dialect and SILK Dialect
... partial implementations of DTB
... in IBM
... Gary implements about 3/4 of DTB

Gary: new builtins will be added to product and used by translator
... translator will be sample or open source - not yet sure of release details

<MichaelKifer> I have to leave for a meeting.

csma: CTIC will do open source DTB Java library
... ready in 1 or 2 weeks
... see rif-dev email
... main problem is still SWC
... need to get implementation

Sandro: specifically talking about OWL portion of SWC
... Eye probably counts for RDF

ChrisW: Cleveland Clinic also counts for RDF

DaveReynolds: would need more than OWL RL

csma: exit criteria only requires one profile
... FuXi implementation report says it includes OWL 2 RL

<csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2009Oct/0003.html

Sandro: test results would make this more clear

DaveReynolds: implementation report for OWL 2 RL
... not the same as implementating OWL profile in SWC

Sandro: should check owl:imports tests

csma: sandro has existing action

<sandro> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Implementations

Sandro: consider Pellet or HermIT
... already explored Jena and Oracle

<DaveReynolds> What about SHER?

Sandro: from IBM

ChrisW: SHER team has evaporated

Sandro: seems to be hybrid reasoning - nobody knows how to implement

ChrisW: not that hard - people just don't care
... DL and rule combinations

Sandro: lots of people have implemented SWRL

mdean: SweetRules, Pellet, Protege (using Jess), ...

Sandro: Jess is not better than OWL RL
... Pellet is most likely option - will contact Kendall Clark

DaveReynolds: issue is that SWC OWL-RIF mapping is different from RDF-RIF mapping
... requires different translator
... coudn't work on until April or May

csma: don't have OWL RL profile in SWC, just OWL DL and OWL Full

Sandro: seemed to make sense at the time - don't recall reasoning
... should point to Wiki not CR in sidebar

ChrisW: more external than internal (Wiki) users

<csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/SWC#Profiles_of_Imports

Sandro: looking for OWL Direct

ACTION Sandro talk to Kendall about SWC implementation

<trackbot> Created ACTION-977 - Talk to Kendall about SWC implementation [on Sandro Hawke - due 2010-02-09].

csma: lots of pending actions
... urgent if we don't want to leave SWC behind

<csma> next item

Test cases

csma: Assert and AssertRetract test cases

<csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/AssertRetract

csma: previously unsure about JRules implementation
... but no more objections
... Retract(?X) retracts all known assertions about ?X
... RetractAll is all values for one slot

Sandro: perhaps RetractValues rather than RetractAll

csma: if don't delete, then can reassert

Sandro: odd that there's no punctuation between Retract and Assert - never have atoms next to each other in BLD
... maybe OK for Action sequence

csma: all use parentheses
... can only have reserved names

Gary: not worse than AND or OR
... no commas anywhere in presentation syntax

<sandro> I cannot keep straight all the different syntaxes and their variations.....

csma: closed list of actions with pre-defined syntaxes

<sandro> (obviously)

<csma> PROPOSED: approve http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/AssertRetract

<DaveReynolds> +1

<Gary> +1


<AdrianP> +1

<sandro> +1

<csma> RESOLVED: approve http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/AssertRetract

short meeting next week

next full meeting February 16

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: chris to contact OWL2-RL folks about SWC [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/02-rif-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.135 (CVS log)
$Date: 2010/02/02 17:33:15 $

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

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This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135  of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20  
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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/retraction/refraction/g
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Found Scribe: Mike Dean
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Found ScribeNick: mdean
ScribeNicks: Mike_Dean, mdean
Default Present: Mike_Dean, csma, DaveReynolds, LeoraMorgenstern, Sandro, ChrisW, Harold, Gary, MichaelKifer, +1.617.299.aaaa, AdrianP
Present: Mike_Dean csma DaveReynolds LeoraMorgenstern Sandro ChrisW Harold Gary MichaelKifer +1.617.299.aaaa AdrianP
Regrets: StellaMitchell JosDeBruijn

WARNING: No meeting title found!
You should specify the meeting title like this:
<dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting

WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Got date from IRC log name: 02 Feb 2010
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/02-rif-minutes.html
People with action items: chris

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