See also: IRC log
<hhalpin> trackbot, reload
<danbri> can you hear me?
<bblfish> we can all hear you?
<danbri> ok P9 seems to be me
yes we can danbri
yes i will scribe
<bblfish> what are you trying to do?
i will mute my phone
<bblfish> it all sounds good
<hhalpin> chair: hhalpin
<hhalpin> scribe: mischat
<hhalpin> PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 9th December 2009 as a true record
<hhalpin> APPROVED: SWXG WG Weekly -- 9th December 2009 as a true record
<hhalpin> APPROVED: Meeting again Next Wed.
meeting next week, as per usual
<danbri> DKA, congrats re http://twitter.com/torgo/status/7712380658 :)
use this meeting to perform Action cleanups?
<hhalpin> In it, we promise the W3C a number of things.
<hhalpin> 31 March 2010
<hhalpin> Final report.
first to review the charter, we promised a number of things, 31 March 2010 for final report
XG final report usually talks about what we should propose for future standardisation
DKA, we have gone into depth into a lot of new standardisation efforts
via our invited speakers mechanism we have had informative talks from people leading these fledging efforts
<hhalpin> I'm thinking of particular places...
W3C could play a gluing role to ensure that these fledging standardisation efforts remain patent free
<danbri> (i'd like to +1 that ... no obvious 'next single thing to stdize ... ' but lots of things to connect up))
DKA hasn't personally identified any specific standardisation efforts that are needed
clearly a role for W3C to be more involved with trying to coordinating outside efforts
danbri woudl like to see a coordination group
<hhalpin> Anyone else?
not a working group
<DKA> +1 to examining the "coordination group" approach...
<danbri> well, a WG with some of the characteristics of an Interst Group and/or COordination Group
<danbri> ie. not making new stds
<Adam> i agree with danbri's points about a working group / coordination group
question : 3 months left in charter, we have to write a final report, and we need to recommend work for future standardisation
what area's excite people , that W3C could create a working group around?
what about SKOS?
Fabian, can't identify any standardisation work needed to be pursued by the W3C at this point in time .
<hhalpin> "share assets" -> micropayments?
tpa: thinks there is a lot of work to be done in W3C. It seems that we don't have work to do, because all of the invited speakers talked about their work. BUt tpa thinks that there are things which the w3c should be standardisation
<hhalpin> portable contacts for media assets.
for example portable contacts for media assets is somehting which would be interesting for future standardisation
<hhalpin> ack ??P27
<hhalpin> Christine - we can look at this next meeting if you want to?
christine is currently working on a big picture document
this shouldn't influence the current discussion re: future plans at the W3C
christine agrees with tpa, that there are gaps in the standards, and that there is much work to be done, but not sure if W3C is the right place to pursue this work
<hhalpin> This would be Jan 20th?
<hhalpin> Or we could do the big picture/document on 27th?
we would like to get to renato on call with the SWXG, would be nice to get the XG to look at the big picture document
written by christine and renato
<hhalpin> ACTION: hhalpin to ping Renato about Jan 27th [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/13-swxg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-117 - Ping Renato about Jan 27th [on Harry Halpin - due 2010-01-20].
<hhalpin> mischat: happy new years!
<hhalpin> ... trying to identify what to standardize post XG
<hhalpin> ... for example, I could see standardize decentralized social networking
<hhalpin> ... something this XG should propose?
<hhalpin> ... see a spec to build a social network and host a bit of it on their own site.
<hhalpin> ... FOAF+SSL, XMPP, host it on their site.
<hhalpin> ... maybe we are on too high of a level?
<bblfish> some document, howto on how to get a distributed social web would be good to have
<bblfish> following on on our use cases
harry: we have a number of distinct choices
<hhalpin> We could propose to extend the XG
we could a) Extend the XG, if we dont have a grasp of the landscape
<hhalpin> We could transform into IG to help co-ordinate with non-W3C bodies
b) we could change into an IG to coordinate with non W3C
i think which is clear is more coordination between
formats and APIs
<hhalpin> 1) Some more co-ordination around formats/APIS -> in particular, there's the long awaited, call between Facebook Developer Platform, OpenSocial, and W3C Widgets
for example facebook developer platform, opensocial, and the W3C widgets
<hhalpin> W3C does standardize APIs.
<hhalpin> Look at the contact APIs and Renato's latest vCard, PortableContacts, and FOAF.
<FabGandon> semantic web is not a WG in W3C, it is an activity ; what the past activity of this XG suggests to me is that the many topics of Social Web and their very different needs might require a whole activity too.
<hhalpin> 2) OpenMicroblogging as a standard
if that call goes well, this could suggest that W3C would be in the role of standardising APIs
<hhalpin> This might include talking to Twitter...Twitter APIs.
<hhalpin> 3) Social data -> policy, provenance and very difficult stuff that neither RDF or XML do right now.
standardising of policy language, provenance, difficult stuff
<hhalpin> policy languages, applying policy languages to FOAF or PortableContacts...
so the XG could suggest how RDF could be updated to be useful to the Social Web
<hhalpin> future work on RDF 2.0 or something.
that would not be directly standardising
<hhalpin> OWF on ID Commons memorandum of agreement out at some point.
<hhalpin> Then's WRAP vs. OAuth debate
Wrap vs OAuth
hhalpin: types too fast ;)
<hhalpin> Or yes, possible standardization of social extensions to XMPP.
AnitaD from vodaphone
<cperey> we will send it to the list
a question for christine, what do you wish to do with the big picture document
<hhalpin> some high-level ideas.
vodaphone could also provide some ideas and comments for the document
DKA, vodaphone is also doing work using XMPP
<cperey> the URL to the document will be sent to the list
and they will be interacting with the XMPP groups, and will be inputting to the XMPP standardisation effort
<cperey> that's pretty much what the document Renato and I have been developing
DKA is interested in a conceptual architecture for the Social Web
<cperey> conceptual architecture
<hhalpin> Talk on the 27th?
<hhalpin> So that Renato can join.
and he thinks it could be an addition to the Social Web final report
<hhalpin> Feb 3rd.
so in feb, vodaphone can talk about XMPP work they are doing in the Social Web
<hhalpin> use-case document that tpa - getting pretty close
some use cases could be shortened
<hhalpin> we have melvin's mapping and the list of social networking
<tpa> or lengthened :)
and the list of social networks
i am here
i am hear too
i can hear DKA
XMPP summit is coming up soon
seems like a good chance to meet up
if people want to meet at FOSDEM
open source conference in brussells
<tpa> mischat: I'll be there too, on Sunday
<danbri> harry, we miss you
<danbri> buttons :)
<bblfish> where is harry?
<bblfish> hhaplin we can't hear you
danbri to email the XG to ask people to come to the XMPP summit
<hhalpin> ACTION: danbri to email the XG to ask people to come XMPP summit [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/13-swxg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-118 - Email the XG to ask people to come XMPP summit [on Dan Brickley - due 2010-01-20].
if people from the XG are going to be there, they should meet up
the next step would be to move into the old actions
<danbri> ACTION danbri schedule something on http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/ and widgets and opensocial
<trackbot> Created ACTION-119 - Schedule something on http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/ and widgets and opensocial [on Dan Brickley - due 2010-01-20].
there are on the agenda
<hhalpin> ACTION: adam to take on corporate story [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/13-swxg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-120 - Take on corporate story [on Adam Boyet - due 2010-01-20].
adam thinks it is worthwhile
tim tagging the stories
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] tanglade to tag existing stories [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/13-swxg-minutes.html#action04]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [DONE] tanglade to take on developer narrative and user stories with mischat [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/13-swxg-minutes.html#action05]
<hhalpin> [INCOMPLETE] ACTION: (3 weeks) rreck to flesh out anonymous usecase connecting to multiple identies and null provenance
tpa: to liaise with interested people to take the tagging forward
<bblfish> is there a list online?
<hhalpin> [INCOMPLETE] ACTION: (4 weeks) oshani to reframe the geolocation/intent/portability
<bblfish> so we can see what we are talking about?
<hhalpin> ACTION: [DONE] (4 weeks) bblfish to relabel data protection use case to be about controlled access and takedown to data "about" you [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/13-swxg-minutes.html#action06]
DKA, do we have the minutes from TPAC
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] DKA to write-up output of XG meeting in TPAC [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/13-swxg-minutes.html#action07]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] (4 weeks) DKA to send notes to camp to Social Web XG wiki and BarCamp.org [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/13-swxg-minutes.html#action08]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] Mischa to describe/implement a report of terms and conditions, and how they change between now and the end of the XG. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/13-swxg-minutes.html#action09]
killing off the invited talks
<hhalpin> ACTION: [DONE] Adam to write up Matt Lee's talk [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/13-swxg-minutes.html#action10]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [DONE] oshani to write up David Recordon and Luke Shepard talk. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/13-swxg-minutes.html#action11]
killing off the invited talk related actions
<hhalpin> ACTION: [DONE] cperey to book global lockbox as an invited speaker [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/13-swxg-minutes.html#action12]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [DONE] danbri to find someone from Opera to talk Widgets [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/13-swxg-minutes.html#action13]
<hhalpin> ACTION: danbri to setup doodle for widget/api talk [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/13-swxg-minutes.html#action14]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-121 - Setup doodle for widget/api talk [on Dan Brickley - due 2010-01-20].
<mischat_> do we want to do more invited speakers ?
<mischat_> people's thoughts
<cperey> I think we should work on the report and then fill in the gaps
<mischat_> probably more invited speakers than time
<cperey> with invited talks on topics which we are missing
<mischat_> danbri thinks that that is an indication that we should turn into an interest group
<tpa> yeah, I'd say maybe 1 or 2 tops, the most salient speakers and subjects
<hhalpin> microformats is missing...
<mischat_> we could transform, and spend the next 2 years talking to people, and we could become a interest group
<mischat_> anything else missing from the list ?
<mischat_> would it be worthwhile continuing for 2 years, just so we could talk to invited speakers?
<hhalpin> vast amounts of silence...
<cperey> by the time you got to the end of the first year, you would need to double back and ask people what had changed
<danbri> re dap, widgets .... http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/contacts/
<mischat_> DKA, thinks that an interest group could be useful
<mischat_> talking and the exchange of idea is a good thing. One of the values we have got from invited speakers is discussion which in turn bring people together to collaborate
<cperey> a webinar series?
<mischat_> interest group wouldn't have clear deliverables
<hhalpin> semantic web ig
<hhalpin> make sure it has a mission
<mischat_> harry, nice thing about XG definite purpose, and IG's just goes on and on, and die due to not being focused enough
<hhalpin> or take a bit longer with the xg
<hhalpin> and come out with with some definite recommendations.
<bblfish> yes I think something with a mission is important
<mischat_> if we do do an IG, it must have a clear reason, and that should be either coordination or standardisation
<hhalpin> social web ecosystem....
<hhalpin> doesn't have that.
<bblfish> otherwise we will all just end up on swig
<hhalpin> Well the co-ordination group usually consists of chairs
<mischat_> what is the difference between an IG and an coordination group
<hhalpin> of WGs.
<mischat_> danbri thinks people listen to coordination groups
<mischat_> the trick with the coordination groups is that they tend to coordinate W3C groups
<cperey> so Harry, before you go....don't forget to double back and (for short term planning) decide what's on the agenda for meeting of 20 January?
<mischat_> but any potential Social Web coordination group would have to coordinate with outside groups
<mischat_> there is a precedence for this, in the mobile initiative at the W3C
<hhalpin> I just e-mailed renato
<mischat_> there was coordination effort, between W3C and OOMO (????) working groups
<hhalpin> asking over the 27th.
<hhalpin> If he says yes, we'll do it.
<mischat_> which stopped the second group from creating their own html-basic
<hhalpin> Otherwise, Eran and Ben are happy to talk about the current "conflict" over WRAP and OAuth.
<hhalpin> But I think it would be better to have renato talk first.
<mischat_> danbri coordination could upset people on the outside, 'cause it could seem that the W3C is attempting to mandate actions of external groups
<mischat_> good question
<danbri> i stick with my 'it's a bit of a hybrid between IG and CG' line!
<mischat_> people could sketch out their visions of their possible outcomes of the XG on the wiki
<mischat_> where on the wiki?
<bblfish> use case document -> architectural document on how this is done
<bblfish> this being distributed social web
<hhalpin> ACTION: hhalpin to doodle over XG vs IG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/13-swxg-minutes.html#action15]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-122 - Doodle over XG vs IG [on Harry Halpin - due 2010-01-20].
<danbri> I'll have a go ... maybe i'll blog something
<DKA> Happy to help out on that.
<mischat_> could DKA, look at how it entails to setup a coordination group over diverse bodies
<hhalpin> ACTION: danbri and DKA to blog or wikize something on co-ordination in the social web [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/01/13-swxg-minutes.html#action16]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-123 - And DKA to blog or wikize something on co-ordination in the social web [on Dan Brickley - due 2010-01-20].
<cperey> I'll send it out at the end of the meeting today
<mischat_> microformats to the invited speaker list
<mischat_> to be added that is :)
<hhalpin> Meeting Adjourned
<tpa> by all
<mischat_> HAPPY NEW YEARS !
<mischat_> bye all
<tpa> happy new year
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