initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 10/4/-1
initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 11/3/3
path lengths & path-matching variables
initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 1/6/10
initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 16/1/0
initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 13/2/2
<LeeF> Present: SteveH, LukeWM, john-l, AndyS, EricP, LeeF, SimonS, IvanH, Souri, SSchenk1, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil, kasei, Alex
13:30:43 <LeeF> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-03-17
Lee Feigenbaum: Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-03-17 ←
13:31:27 <LeeF> Regrets: Axel, Davide, Michele
Lee Feigenbaum: Regrets: Axel, Davide, Michele ←
13:31:42 <LeeF> Chair: LeeF
Lee Feigenbaum: Chair: LeeF ←
13:32:01 <LeeF> Scribenick: john-l
(Scribe set to John Clark)
13:58:09 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
(No events recorded for 26 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started ←
13:58:16 <Zakim> +??P12
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12 ←
13:58:19 <AndyS> But is it standard H.323?
Andy Seaborne: But is it standard H.323? ←
13:58:27 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P12 is [Garlik]
Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P12 is [Garlik] ←
13:58:27 <Zakim> +[Garlik]; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +[Garlik]; got it ←
13:59:17 <Zakim> +john-l
Zakim IRC Bot: +john-l ←
13:59:20 <Zakim> +??P19
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P19 ←
13:59:23 <AndyS> zakim, ??P19 is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P19 is me ←
13:59:27 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
13:59:29 <Zakim> +Lee_Feigenbaum
Zakim IRC Bot: +Lee_Feigenbaum ←
13:59:58 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
14:00:02 <LeeF> zakim, Lee_Feigenbaum is me
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, Lee_Feigenbaum is me ←
14:00:02 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF; got it ←
14:00:10 <Zakim> + +0491768204aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +0491768204aaaa ←
14:00:33 <LeeF> zakim, mute ericP
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, mute ericP ←
14:00:33 <Zakim> EricP should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: EricP should now be muted ←
14:00:50 <ericP> Zakim, unkute me
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, unkute me ←
14:00:50 <Zakim> I don't understand 'unkute me', ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'unkute me', ericP ←
14:00:55 <SSchenk1> Zakim, 0491768204aaaa is me
Simon Schenk: Zakim, 0491768204aaaa is me ←
14:00:55 <Zakim> sorry, SSchenk1, I do not recognize a party named '0491768204aaaa'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, SSchenk1, I do not recognize a party named '0491768204aaaa' ←
14:00:57 <ericP> Zakim, unmute me
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, unmute me ←
14:00:59 <Zakim> EricP should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: EricP should no longer be muted ←
14:01:01 <ivanh> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
14:01:01 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
14:01:09 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
14:01:18 <john-l> Zakim, aaaa is SSchenk1
Zakim, aaaa is SSchenk1 ←
14:01:19 <ywang4> ywang4 has joined #sparql
Yimin Wang: ywang4 has joined #sparql ←
14:01:20 <LeeF> zakim, aaaa is SSchenk1
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, aaaa is SSchenk1 ←
14:01:25 <Zakim> +Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri ←
14:01:31 <Zakim> +SSchenk1; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +SSchenk1; got it ←
14:01:35 <Zakim> sorry, LeeF, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, LeeF, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa' ←
14:01:41 <Zakim> +ywang4
Zakim IRC Bot: +ywang4 ←
14:01:42 <kjetil> I will be semi-present on IRC, may call in later
Kjetil Kjernsmo: I will be semi-present on IRC, may call in later ←
14:02:00 <Souri> Souri has joined #sparql
Souri Das: Souri has joined #sparql ←
14:02:32 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, who's here? ←
14:02:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4 ←
14:02:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SSchenk1, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, trackbot, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Souri, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SSchenk1, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, trackbot, ericP ←
14:02:37 <john-l> Scribe: john-l
<LeeF> topic: introductions
14:04:37 <john-l> SSchenk1: I've done work on SPARQL federation, including recent work on the Billion Triple Challenge.
Simon Schenk: I've done work on SPARQL federation, including recent work on the Billion Triple Challenge. ←
14:04:38 <Zakim> +iv_an_ru
Zakim IRC Bot: +iv_an_ru ←
14:04:46 <john-l> ... Also see the recent introduction on the mailing list.
... Also see the recent introduction on the mailing list. ←
<LeeF> topic: administrivia
14:05:30 <LeeF> -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-03-10 minutes from last week
Lee Feigenbaum: -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-03-10 minutes from last week ←
14:05:45 <chimezie> chimezie has joined #sparql
Chime Ogbuji: chimezie has joined #sparql ←
14:06:11 <john-l> LeeF: Note that the straw polls in the minutes are not binding in any way.
Lee Feigenbaum: Note that the straw polls in the minutes are not binding in any way. ←
14:06:15 <ericP> +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
14:06:18 <ivanh> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
14:06:24 <LeeF> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-03-10
RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-03-10 ←
14:06:36 <Zakim> +Chimezie_Ogbuji
Zakim IRC Bot: +Chimezie_Ogbuji ←
14:06:38 <Zakim> +??P51
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P51 ←
14:06:47 <john-l> LeeF: Nothing from our liasons, correct?
Lee Feigenbaum: Nothing from our liasons, correct? ←
14:06:51 <LeeF> zakim, ??P51 is Orri
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, ??P51 is Orri ←
14:06:51 <Zakim> +Orri; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Orri; got it ←
14:07:55 <ivanh> zakim, mute me
Ivan Herman: zakim, mute me ←
14:07:55 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should now be muted ←
14:08:25 <LeeF> topic: Negation
Summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 10/4/-1
<LeeF> summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 10/4/-1
14:07:59 <john-l> LeeF: To review, we just want to get the basics of each feature out there, without too much discussion of syntax details in these meetings.
Lee Feigenbaum: To review, we just want to get the basics of each feature out there, without too much discussion of syntax details in these meetings. ←
14:08:14 <john-l> ... Discussion should focus on triage.
... Discussion should focus on triage. ←
14:08:24 <john-l> LeeF: First up, Negation. Chime?
Lee Feigenbaum: First up, Negation. Chime? ←
14:08:28 <chimezie> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:Negation
Chime Ogbuji: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:Negation ←
14:08:54 <john-l> chimezie: This feature supports testing when a pattern does not match the active graph.
Chime Ogbuji: This feature supports testing when a pattern does not match the active graph. ←
14:09:12 <john-l> ... We currently do this with OPTIONAL and a bound test.
... We currently do this with OPTIONAL and a bound test. ←
14:09:16 <SteveH> q+ to talk about !ASK
Steve Harris: q+ to talk about !ASK ←
14:09:25 <ivanh> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
14:09:30 <john-l> ... But we want to be able to test directly whether a pattern is not matched.
... But we want to be able to test directly whether a pattern is not matched. ←
14:09:44 <ericP> +1 to intuitive
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 to intuitive ←
14:09:48 <LeeF> q+ to note personal pros & cons
Lee Feigenbaum: q+ to note personal pros & cons ←
14:09:51 <john-l> ... It would be more intuitive as a first-class operator in the language.
... It would be more intuitive as a first-class operator in the language. ←
14:10:05 <john-l> ... Examples of different syntax are in the Wiki.
... Examples of different syntax are in the Wiki. ←
14:10:22 <ericP> i implemented unsaid in algae2
Eric Prud'hommeaux: i implemented unsaid in algae2 ←
14:10:32 <SteveH> q- chimezie covered what I was going to talk about, I think
Steve Harris: q- chimezie covered what I was going to talk about, I think ←
14:10:36 <john-l> ... As to use cases, there are a lot of exclusion criteria in health care informatics queries.
... As to use cases, there are a lot of exclusion criteria in health care informatics queries. ←
14:10:41 <ericP> (had a different spelling, though, something like "notfound" iirc)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: (had a different spelling, though, something like "notfound" iirc) ←
14:10:43 <LeeF> ack steveh
Lee Feigenbaum: ack steveh ←
14:10:43 <Zakim> SteveH, you wanted to talk about !ASK
Zakim IRC Bot: SteveH, you wanted to talk about !ASK ←
14:11:40 <iv_an_ru> UNSAID become a binary operator right?
Ivan Mikhailov: UNSAID become a binary operator right? ←
14:11:53 <iv_an_ru> {A} UNSAID {B}
Ivan Mikhailov: {A} UNSAID {B} ←
14:11:53 <john-l> LeeF: Are there other implementations of Negation out there?
Lee Feigenbaum: Are there other implementations of Negation out there? ←
14:12:04 <Souri> Some simplifications on what as parameter for UNSAID: OPTIONAL not needed, UNION not needed, ...
Souri Das: Some simplifications on what as parameter for UNSAID: OPTIONAL not needed, UNION not needed, ... ←
14:12:07 <ivanh> ack ivanh
Ivan Herman: ack ivanh ←
14:12:07 <AndyS> iv_an_ru: It didn't work like that
Ivan Mikhailov: It didn't work like that [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
14:12:10 <LeeF> q+ Orri
Lee Feigenbaum: q+ Orri ←
14:12:29 <ericP> q+ i do
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ i do ←
14:12:32 <john-l> ivanh: Does anyone remember what was the main issue with this feature from the previous working group?
Ivan Herman: Does anyone remember what was the main issue with this feature from the previous working group? ←
14:12:33 <chimezie> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#unsaid
Chime Ogbuji: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#unsaid ←
14:12:34 <SteveH> IIRC it was not included because of negation as failure concerns
Steve Harris: IIRC it was not included because of negation as failure concerns ←
14:12:44 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
14:12:56 <john-l> LeeF: There may have been an open world/closed world concern.
Lee Feigenbaum: There may have been an open world/closed world concern. ←
14:13:01 <LeeF> ack AndyS
Lee Feigenbaum: ack AndyS ←
14:13:09 <ericP> q- i
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q- i ←
14:13:11 <ericP> q- do
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q- do ←
14:13:13 <LeeF> q- i
Lee Feigenbaum: q- i ←
14:13:18 <LeeF> q- do
Lee Feigenbaum: q- do ←
14:13:19 <john-l> AndyS: We were discussing this before the algebra was introduced, when the issues surrounding failure were more complex.
Andy Seaborne: We were discussing this before the algebra was introduced, when the issues surrounding failure were more complex. ←
14:13:28 <chimezie> Zakim, who is here?
Chime Ogbuji: Zakim, who is here? ←
14:13:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri ←
14:13:31 <Zakim> On IRC I see chimezie, Souri, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, trackbot, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see chimezie, Souri, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, trackbot, ericP ←
14:14:04 <ivanh> ack LeeF
Ivan Herman: ack LeeF ←
14:14:04 <Zakim> LeeF, you wanted to note personal pros & cons
Zakim IRC Bot: LeeF, you wanted to note personal pros & cons ←
14:14:22 <Zakim> +DaveNewman
Zakim IRC Bot: +DaveNewman ←
14:14:26 <john-l> LeeF: Inevitably, when teaching SPARQL, someone asks for some form of negation.
Lee Feigenbaum: Inevitably, when teaching SPARQL, someone asks for some form of negation. ←
14:14:50 <AndyS> Another use case: data validation
Andy Seaborne: Another use case: data validation ←
14:14:54 <LeeF> ack Orri
Lee Feigenbaum: ack Orri ←
14:14:55 <john-l> ... Still, we want to keep the scope of our work small, if possible.
... Still, we want to keep the scope of our work small, if possible. ←
14:15:00 <ericP> q+ to say subselect route is less easy to teach
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to say subselect route is less easy to teach ←
14:15:28 <LeeF> ericP, but (much?) easier than OPTIONAL+!bound
Lee Feigenbaum: ericP, but (much?) easier than OPTIONAL+!bound ←
14:15:30 <john-l> Souri: There are good social web use cases, such as asking about knowing or not knowing certain people.
Souri Das: There are good social web use cases, such as asking about knowing or not knowing certain people. ←
14:15:37 <LeeF> s/Souri/Orri
Lee Feigenbaum: s/Souri/Orri ←
14:15:45 <SteveH> ericP, that's a matter of opinion, I think
Steve Harris: ericP, that's a matter of opinion, I think ←
14:16:08 <Souri> q+
14:16:13 <john-l> ... This has a good mapping to similar SQL concepts.
... This has a good mapping to similar SQL concepts. ←
14:16:16 <ericP> SteveH, i think it's pretty defendable if you take the average joe on the street
Eric Prud'hommeaux: SteveH, i think it's pretty defendable if you take the average joe on the street ←
14:16:29 <kjetil> Zakim, what is the code?
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, what is the code? ←
14:16:29 <Zakim> the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), kjetil
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), kjetil ←
14:16:32 <SteveH> ericP, the average joe SPARQL user?
Steve Harris: ericP, the average joe SPARQL user? ←
14:16:38 <ericP> there is none
Eric Prud'hommeaux: there is none ←
14:16:53 <ericP> q-
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q- ←
14:16:53 <Souri> One of us (Orri and Souri) should change our names!
Souri Das: One of us (Orri and Souri) should change our names! ←
14:16:54 <Zakim> + +2
Zakim IRC Bot: + +2 ←
14:17:06 <kjetil> Zakim, mute me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, mute me ←
14:17:06 <Zakim> sorry, kjetil, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, kjetil, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you ←
14:17:24 <LeeF> zakim, +2 is kjetil
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, +2 is kjetil ←
14:17:24 <Zakim> +kjetil; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +kjetil; got it ←
14:17:24 <kjetil> Zakim, +2 is me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, +2 is me ←
14:17:25 <Zakim> sorry, kjetil, I do not recognize a party named '+2'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, kjetil, I do not recognize a party named '+2' ←
14:17:26 <kjetil> Zakim, mute me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, mute me ←
14:17:26 <Zakim> kjetil should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: kjetil should now be muted ←
14:17:30 <LeeF> q?
Lee Feigenbaum: q? ←
14:17:31 <dnewman2> dnewman2 has joined #sparql
Dave Newman: dnewman2 has joined #sparql ←
14:17:38 <LeeF> ack Souri
Lee Feigenbaum: ack Souri ←
14:18:18 <john-l> Souri: I approve this feature. We should focus on keeping this simple, wherever possible.
Souri Das: I approve this feature. We should focus on keeping this simple, wherever possible. ←
14:18:57 <john-l> LeeF: Time for a straw poll on negation!
Lee Feigenbaum: Time for a straw poll on negation! ←
14:19:14 <Souri> +1
14:19:15 <john-l> +1
+1 ←
14:19:16 <SteveH> +1 if a part of subSELECT, -1 otherwise
Steve Harris: +1 if a part of subSELECT, -1 otherwise ←
14:19:16 <kjetil> +0
Kjetil Kjernsmo: +0 ←
14:19:17 <LukeWM> 0
14:19:26 <chimezie> +1
Chime Ogbuji: +1 ←
14:19:26 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, who's here? ←
14:19:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted) ←
14:19:29 <Zakim> On IRC I see dnewman2, chimezie, Souri, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see dnewman2, chimezie, Souri, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, ←
14:19:31 <Zakim> ... trackbot, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot, ericP ←
14:19:36 <ivanh> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
14:19:37 <AndyS> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
14:19:39 <ericP> 0
14:19:40 <dnewman2> +1
Dave Newman: +1 ←
14:19:44 <SimonS> +1
Simon Schenk: +1 ←
14:19:46 <iv_an_ru> 0 if a part of subSELECT, -1 otherwise
Ivan Mikhailov: 0 if a part of subSELECT, -1 otherwise ←
14:19:52 <ywang4> +1
Yimin Wang: +1 ←
14:20:05 <LeeF> Orri: +1
Orri Erling: +1 [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
14:20:16 <LeeF> LeeF: 0
Lee Feigenbaum: 0 [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
14:20:43 <LeeF> topic: Property Paths
Summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 11/3/3
<LeeF> summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 11/3/3
14:20:47 <john-l> LeeF: Now it's Andy's turn to talk about Property Paths.
Lee Feigenbaum: Now it's Andy's turn to talk about Property Paths. ←
14:20:49 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:PropertyPaths#Implementation_Experience_in_ARQ
Andy Seaborne: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:PropertyPaths#Implementation_Experience_in_ARQ ←
14:21:28 <john-l> AndyS: A property path is a substitute for a property, and has a few additional operators.
Andy Seaborne: A property path is a substitute for a property, and has a few additional operators. ←
14:21:42 <kasei> kasei has joined #sparql
Greg Williams: kasei has joined #sparql ←
14:21:45 <john-l> ... There are simple ones which are syntactic sugar, and more powerful cases.
... There are simple ones which are syntactic sugar, and more powerful cases. ←
14:21:56 <Souri> Souri has joined #sparql
Souri Das: Souri has joined #sparql ←
14:22:51 <john-l> ... This does not introduce a new datatype.
... This does not introduce a new datatype. ←
14:22:58 <john-l> ... It provides a set of results.
... It provides a set of results. ←
14:23:10 <SteveH> q+
Steve Harris: q+ ←
14:23:14 <john-l> ... It indicates whether a path exists, not what that path is.
... It indicates whether a path exists, not what that path is. ←
14:23:45 <LeeF> -> http://esw.w3.org/topic/SPARQL/Extensions/Paths has a bit more info
Lee Feigenbaum: -> http://esw.w3.org/topic/SPARQL/Extensions/Paths has a bit more info ←
14:23:55 <chimezie> +q about how much of support for transitivity can be said to be covered by entailment
Chime Ogbuji: +q about how much of support for transitivity can be said to be covered by entailment ←
14:24:04 <chimezie> +q
Chime Ogbuji: +q ←
14:24:17 <john-l> Orri: We allow paths in any expression location, but this is primarily a syntactic difference.
Orri Erling: We allow paths in any expression location, but this is primarily a syntactic difference. ←
14:24:32 <Zakim> + +1.310.729.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.310.729.aacc ←
14:24:36 <kasei> Zakim aacc is me
Greg Williams: Zakim aacc is me ←
14:24:54 <LeeF> zakim, aacc is kasei
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, aacc is kasei ←
14:24:54 <Zakim> +kasei; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +kasei; got it ←
14:25:00 <kasei> Zakim mute me
Greg Williams: Zakim mute me ←
14:25:03 <john-l> SteveH: Can you say more about the cardinality of the result set?
Steve Harris: Can you say more about the cardinality of the result set? ←
14:25:26 <john-l> AndyS: ... describes how the variable binding works.
Andy Seaborne: ... describes how the variable binding works. ←
14:25:46 <kasei> Zakim, mute me
Greg Williams: Zakim, mute me ←
14:25:46 <Zakim> kasei should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: kasei should now be muted ←
14:25:51 <kasei> thanks Lee
Greg Williams: thanks Lee ←
14:26:29 <LeeF> q?
Lee Feigenbaum: q? ←
14:26:29 <iv_an_ru> I'll vote for PropertyPath syntax for a simple reason: it's easier to implement it once in addition to exixting Virtuoso's transitive subqueries than to explain to beginners how to write that subqueries.
Ivan Mikhailov: I'll vote for PropertyPath syntax for a simple reason: it's easier to implement it once in addition to exixting Virtuoso's transitive subqueries than to explain to beginners how to write that subqueries. ←
14:26:34 <LeeF> ack SteveH
Lee Feigenbaum: ack SteveH ←
14:26:34 <ivanh> ack SteveH
Ivan Herman: ack SteveH ←
14:26:42 <LeeF> ack chimezie
Lee Feigenbaum: ack chimezie ←
14:26:48 <dnewman2> q+
Dave Newman: q+ ←
14:27:17 <john-l> chimezie: What do implementers think about the relationship between property paths and entailment?
Chime Ogbuji: What do implementers think about the relationship between property paths and entailment? ←
14:27:41 <john-l> AndyS: The driving use case is when you want to apply path walking to data when you don't have an inference mechanism.
Andy Seaborne: The driving use case is when you want to apply path walking to data when you don't have an inference mechanism. ←
14:28:10 <LeeF> ack dnewman2
Lee Feigenbaum: ack dnewman2 ←
14:28:12 <john-l> ... It can also provide direct answers for certain inference questions.
... It can also provide direct answers for certain inference questions. ←
14:28:53 <john-l> dnewman2: What do you think about an extension to this for ordering the results in a transitive sequence?
Dave Newman: What do you think about an extension to this for ordering the results in a transitive sequence? ←
14:29:02 <Zakim> + +2
Zakim IRC Bot: + +2 ←
14:29:04 <iv_an_ru> For me, any same-as, inference etc are invisible minor details of path traversal. Say, same-as nodes should not even appear in the resulting path.
Ivan Mikhailov: For me, any same-as, inference etc are invisible minor details of path traversal. Say, same-as nodes should not even appear in the resulting path. ←
14:29:22 <LeeF> zakim, +2 is AlexPassant
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, +2 is AlexPassant ←
14:29:22 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexPassant; got it ←
14:30:00 <john-l> ... The use case I have in mind is doing traceability analysis.
... The use case I have in mind is doing traceability analysis. ←
14:30:31 <john-l> ... (A, R, B), (B, R, C), (C, R, D), and I'd like to get back A, B, C, D.
... (A, R, B), (B, R, C), (C, R, D), and I'd like to get back A, B, C, D. ←
14:30:53 <john-l> AndyS: A reasoner would help you out there.
Andy Seaborne: A reasoner would help you out there. ←
14:31:07 <john-l> dnewman2: But I won't get the results in path order.
Dave Newman: But I won't get the results in path order. ←
14:32:23 <john-l> LeeF: Use the mailing list!
Lee Feigenbaum: Use the mailing list! ←
14:32:40 <john-l> Orri: I've answered this on the mailing list.
Orri Erling: I've answered this on the mailing list. ←
14:33:51 <john-l> LeeF: This is not about matching the path itself, but rather providing a feature for traversing a path when querying (that is, indicating whether such a path exists).
Lee Feigenbaum: This is not about matching the path itself, but rather providing a feature for traversing a path when querying (that is, indicating whether such a path exists). ←
14:33:55 <LeeF> q?
Lee Feigenbaum: q? ←
14:33:58 <LeeF> ack dnewman2
Lee Feigenbaum: ack dnewman2 ←
14:34:00 <AlexPassant> q+ for path and owl:transitivity + ordering
Alex Passant: q+ for path and owl:transitivity + ordering ←
14:34:02 <LeeF> ack dnewman
Lee Feigenbaum: ack dnewman ←
14:34:10 <LeeF> ack AlexPassant
Lee Feigenbaum: ack AlexPassant ←
14:34:10 <Zakim> AlexPassant, you wanted to discuss path and owl:transitivity + ordering
Zakim IRC Bot: AlexPassant, you wanted to discuss path and owl:transitivity + ordering ←
14:34:16 <dnewman2> q-
Dave Newman: q- ←
14:35:03 <john-l> AlexPassant: How can we maintain ordering when using inference?
Alex Passant: How can we maintain ordering when using inference? ←
14:35:11 <john-l> LeeF: Use the mailing list!
Lee Feigenbaum: Use the mailing list! ←
14:35:38 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, who's here? ←
14:35:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant ←
14:35:40 <ivanh> -1 I feel the proper specification for this feature would be too much for this charter...
Ivan Herman: -1 I feel the proper specification for this feature would be too much for this charter... ←
14:35:40 <SteveH> -1
Steve Harris: -1 ←
14:35:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, ←
14:35:42 <john-l> LeeF: Time for a straw poll about property paths.
Lee Feigenbaum: Time for a straw poll about property paths. ←
14:35:42 <dnewman2> +1
Dave Newman: +1 ←
14:35:43 <Zakim> ... trackbot, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot, ericP ←
14:35:45 <john-l> -0
-0 ←
14:35:47 <kjetil> +1
Kjetil Kjernsmo: +1 ←
14:35:48 <AlexPassant> +1
Alex Passant: +1 ←
14:35:50 <kasei> +1
Greg Williams: +1 ←
14:35:50 <chimezie> 0
Chime Ogbuji: 0 ←
14:35:58 <LukeWM> +1
Luke Wilson-Mawer: +1 ←
14:36:06 <SimonS> +1
Simon Schenk: +1 ←
14:36:07 <AndyS> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
14:36:07 <iv_an_ru> +1
Ivan Mikhailov: +1 ←
14:36:13 <ericP> -1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: -1 ←
14:36:20 <Souri> +1 but in simple form only
Souri Das: +1 but in simple form only ←
14:36:26 <LeeF> Orri: +1
Orri Erling: +1 [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
14:36:34 <ywang4> +1
Yimin Wang: +1 ←
14:36:45 <ericP> what about ±0 ?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: what about ±0 ? ←
14:36:53 <LeeF> LeeF: 0
Lee Feigenbaum: 0 [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
14:37:02 <Souri> What I mean by "simple" is no ordering etc.
Souri Das: What I mean by "simple" is no ordering etc. ←
<LeeF> topic: path lengths & path-matching variables
Summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 1/6/10
<LeeF> summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 1/6/10
14:37:27 <john-l> LeeF: Next up, path lengths.
Lee Feigenbaum: Next up, path lengths. ←
14:37:27 <SteveH> URI?
Steve Harris: URI? ←
14:37:40 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:PathLength
Lee Feigenbaum: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:PathLength ←
14:37:43 <iv_an_ru> Souri, I guess that ordering is a separate issue, '*' is The issue :)
Ivan Mikhailov: Souri, I guess that ordering is a separate issue, '*' is The issue :) ←
14:38:18 <Souri> Souri has joined #sparql
Souri Das: Souri has joined #sparql ←
14:38:34 <john-l> AlexPassant: Want to be able to specify how many properties separate two resources.
Alex Passant: Want to be able to specify how many properties separate two resources. ←
14:38:55 <john-l> ... Use cases include finding all people who are a certain number of relationships away from others.
... Use cases include finding all people who are a certain number of relationships away from others. ←
14:39:08 <AlexPassant> http://www-sop.inria.fr/edelweiss/software/corese/v2_4_1/manual/next.php
Alex Passant: http://www-sop.inria.fr/edelweiss/software/corese/v2_4_1/manual/next.php ←
14:39:09 <john-l> ... Implementation links should be on the Wiki.
... Implementation links should be on the Wiki. ←
14:39:27 <john-l> LeeF: Any other implementations?
Lee Feigenbaum: Any other implementations? ←
14:39:49 <john-l> ???: These features could be subsumed by transitive subquery.
???: These features could be subsumed by transitive subquery. ←
14:39:54 <john-l> s/???/Orri/
s/???/Orri/ ←
14:39:55 <LeeF> q?
Lee Feigenbaum: q? ←
14:39:59 <iv_an_ru> s/???/Orri
Ivan Mikhailov: s/???/Orri ←
14:40:50 <LeeF> The way I see it from the wiki page, this is about binding paths to the variables, followed by calculating the length of that matched path
Lee Feigenbaum: The way I see it from the wiki page, this is about binding paths to the variables, followed by calculating the length of that matched path ←
14:41:04 <Souri> q+
14:41:16 <LeeF> ack Souri
Lee Feigenbaum: ack Souri ←
14:41:17 <iv_an_ru> I don't like an extra datatype that can not be even serialized for debugging
Ivan Mikhailov: I don't like an extra datatype that can not be even serialized for debugging ←
14:42:18 <AlexPassant> fyi, syntax used in the related wiki page is the Corese one, but I don't have a strong opinion on which syntax must be used for that feature
Alex Passant: fyi, syntax used in the related wiki page is the Corese one, but I don't have a strong opinion on which syntax must be used for that feature ←
14:42:18 <john-l> Souri: There could be multiple paths between nodes, and the issue is complicated by inference, which adds triples.
Souri Das: There could be multiple paths between nodes, and the issue is complicated by inference, which adds triples. ←
14:42:44 <chimezie> We need to be careful about the fine line between incremental path-based traversal and more general (and more complex) graph-theoretic operators, such as path lenths, shortest paths, transitive closures, etc..
Chime Ogbuji: We need to be careful about the fine line between incremental path-based traversal and more general (and more complex) graph-theoretic operators, such as path lenths, shortest paths, transitive closures, etc.. ←
14:42:49 <SteveH> it introduces binding ?vars
Steve Harris: it introduces binding ?vars ←
14:42:53 <SteveH> in FILTERs
Steve Harris: in FILTERs ←
14:43:03 <ericP> i think it's expensive, but that it be well-defined over anything with a (virtual) graph representation
Eric Prud'hommeaux: i think it's expensive, but that it be well-defined over anything with a (virtual) graph representation ←
14:43:22 <AndyS> SteveH - where abouts?
Andy Seaborne: SteveH - where abouts? ←
14:43:26 <LeeF> q?
Lee Feigenbaum: q? ←
14:43:50 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, who's here? ←
14:43:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant ←
14:43:51 <SteveH> AndyS, ah, no, I misread
Steve Harris: AndyS, ah, no, I misread ←
14:43:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, ←
14:43:54 <john-l> LeeF: Time for a straw poll!
Lee Feigenbaum: Time for a straw poll! ←
14:43:54 <SteveH> -1
Steve Harris: -1 ←
14:43:55 <chimezie> -1
Chime Ogbuji: -1 ←
14:43:55 <ericP> -1 (sorry, just want a small and reallistic scope)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: -1 (sorry, just want a small and reallistic scope) ←
14:43:55 <ivanh> -1
Ivan Herman: -1 ←
14:43:56 <Zakim> ... trackbot, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot, ericP ←
14:43:56 <LukeWM> -1
Luke Wilson-Mawer: -1 ←
14:43:56 <Souri> -1
14:43:57 <john-l> -0
-0 ←
14:43:57 <kasei> -1
Greg Williams: -1 ←
14:43:57 <AndyS> -1 to introducing a new datatype
Andy Seaborne: -1 to introducing a new datatype ←
14:43:57 <AlexPassant> +1
Alex Passant: +1 ←
14:44:00 <dnewman2> ericP: 0
Eric Prud'hommeaux: 0 [ Scribe Assist by Dave Newman ] ←
14:44:01 <iv_an_ru> -1
Ivan Mikhailov: -1 ←
14:44:02 <kjetil> 0 if propertypaths is done, +1 otherwise
Kjetil Kjernsmo: 0 if propertypaths is done, +1 otherwise ←
14:44:02 <SimonS> 0
Simon Schenk: 0 ←
14:44:18 <LeeF> -1
Lee Feigenbaum: -1 ←
14:44:37 <LeeF> Orri: 0 (very useful but may be difficult to get consensus)
Orri Erling: 0 (very useful but may be difficult to get consensus) [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
14:44:49 <ywang4> 0
Yimin Wang: 0 ←
14:45:01 <ywang4> sorry the line was not clear enough..
Yimin Wang: sorry the line was not clear enough.. ←
14:45:35 <LeeF> topic: Aggregates
Summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 16/1/0
<LeeF> summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 16/1/0
14:45:37 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:AggregateFunctions
Lee Feigenbaum: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:AggregateFunctions ←
14:45:37 <john-l> LeeF: Next up: aggregates.
Lee Feigenbaum: Next up: aggregates. ←
14:46:02 <john-l> ... Take a whole bunch of bindings and group them together. This is common in SQL.
... Take a whole bunch of bindings and group them together. This is common in SQL. ←
14:46:11 <john-l> ... Either one big group or subgroups.
... Either one big group or subgroups. ←
14:46:56 <Souri> +1 :-) I had proposed COUNT in SPARQL 1
Souri Das: +1 :-) I had proposed COUNT in SPARQL 1 ←
14:47:10 <john-l> ... This is a very common request when explaining SPARQL.
... This is a very common request when explaining SPARQL. ←
14:47:30 <john-l> ... Several implementations listed on the Wiki.
... Several implementations listed on the Wiki. ←
14:47:43 <john-l> ... Postponed by SPARQL 2008 due to lack of implementation experience.
... Postponed by SPARQL 2008 due to lack of implementation experience. ←
14:48:39 <john-l> SteveH: Answering aggregate questions is hard for a couple other reasons, such as dealing with OWL and *what* is being counted.
Steve Harris: Answering aggregate questions is hard for a couple other reasons, such as dealing with OWL and *what* is being counted. ←
14:49:04 <ericP> emphatically, we are a graph language
Eric Prud'hommeaux: emphatically, we are a graph language ←
14:49:08 <john-l> LeeF: Do we collapse counts for owl:sameAs?
Lee Feigenbaum: Do we collapse counts for owl:sameAs? ←
14:49:13 <LeeF> q?
Lee Feigenbaum: q? ←
14:49:16 <iv_an_ru> IMHO, aggregates are unavoidable, the only question is how the end-point should describe user-defined aggregates in its capabilities ;)
Ivan Mikhailov: IMHO, aggregates are unavoidable, the only question is how the end-point should describe user-defined aggregates in its capabilities ;) ←
14:49:33 <Souri> +q
14:49:44 <john-l> Orri: Aggregates are a must-have.
Orri Erling: Aggregates are a must-have. ←
14:50:03 <kasei> +q to ask about numeric types and agregates
Greg Williams: +q to ask about numeric types and agregates ←
14:50:18 <john-l> ... We have a partial implementation that deals with owl:sameAs.
... We have a partial implementation that deals with owl:sameAs. ←
14:50:19 <LeeF> ack Souri
Lee Feigenbaum: ack Souri ←
14:50:48 <chimezie> +q to ask if aggregate champions envision extending SELECT expressions only with aggregate functions or more general expressions
Chime Ogbuji: +q to ask if aggregate champions envision extending SELECT expressions only with aggregate functions or more general expressions ←
14:50:50 <kasei> Zakim, unmute me
Greg Williams: Zakim, unmute me ←
14:50:55 <Zakim> kasei should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: kasei should no longer be muted ←
14:50:56 <LeeF> ack kasei
Lee Feigenbaum: ack kasei ←
14:50:57 <iv_an_ru> There's need in handwritten group by in some cases, but not so often.
Ivan Mikhailov: There's need in handwritten group by in some cases, but not so often. ←
14:50:59 <Zakim> kasei, you wanted to ask about numeric types and agregates
Zakim IRC Bot: kasei, you wanted to ask about numeric types and agregates ←
14:51:22 <AndyS> q+ to reply to Greg
Andy Seaborne: q+ to reply to Greg ←
14:51:31 <Souri> How about HAVING to go with GROUP BY?
Souri Das: How about HAVING to go with GROUP BY? ←
14:51:34 <john-l> kasei: How do you deal with datatype mismatch?
Greg Williams: How do you deal with datatype mismatch? ←
14:51:52 <LeeF> ack AndyS
Lee Feigenbaum: ack AndyS ←
14:51:52 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to reply to Greg
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to reply to Greg ←
14:52:02 <john-l> Several implementators indicate that they skip non-numbers.
Several implementators indicate that they skip non-numbers. ←
14:52:30 <kasei> Zakim, mute me
Greg Williams: Zakim, mute me ←
14:52:30 <Zakim> kasei should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: kasei should now be muted ←
14:52:35 <LeeF> ack chimezie
Lee Feigenbaum: ack chimezie ←
14:52:35 <Zakim> chimezie, you wanted to ask if aggregate champions envision extending SELECT expressions only with aggregate functions or more general expressions
Zakim IRC Bot: chimezie, you wanted to ask if aggregate champions envision extending SELECT expressions only with aggregate functions or more general expressions ←
14:52:45 <iv_an_ru> more general
Ivan Mikhailov: more general ←
14:52:46 <SteveH> max(xsd:decimal(?x)) is possible
Steve Harris: max(xsd:decimal(?x)) is possible ←
14:53:38 <john-l> LeeF: Aggregate expressions should go with more general scalar expressions.
Lee Feigenbaum: Aggregate expressions should go with more general scalar expressions. ←
14:53:43 <LeeF> q?
Lee Feigenbaum: q? ←
14:54:15 <john-l> LeeF: Any substantial concerns about aggregates?
Lee Feigenbaum: Any substantial concerns about aggregates? ←
14:54:39 <SteveH> it has a strong relation to subSELECTs in the SQL world
Steve Harris: it has a strong relation to subSELECTs in the SQL world ←
14:54:41 <john-l> chimezie: We just need to walk carefully around the open world basis.
Chime Ogbuji: We just need to walk carefully around the open world basis. ←
14:54:50 <SteveH> and things like CONCAT() coupld be complex in SPARQL
Steve Harris: and things like CONCAT() coupld be complex in SPARQL ←
14:55:04 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, who's here? ←
14:55:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant ←
14:55:04 <kasei> +1
Greg Williams: +1 ←
14:55:06 <chimezie> +1
Chime Ogbuji: +1 ←
14:55:07 <ericP> 0
14:55:07 <LukeWM> +1
Luke Wilson-Mawer: +1 ←
14:55:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, ←
14:55:08 <SteveH> +1
Steve Harris: +1 ←
14:55:08 <AndyS> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
14:55:08 <john-l> LeeF: Straw poll time!
Lee Feigenbaum: Straw poll time! ←
14:55:09 <ywang4> +1
Yimin Wang: +1 ←
14:55:09 <iv_an_ru> +1
Ivan Mikhailov: +1 ←
14:55:09 <ivanh> +1 with the mild worry about the owl related issues
Ivan Herman: +1 with the mild worry about the owl related issues ←
14:55:09 <Zakim> ... trackbot, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot, ericP ←
14:55:09 <kjetil> +1
Kjetil Kjernsmo: +1 ←
14:55:10 <dnewman2> +1
Dave Newman: +1 ←
14:55:12 <john-l> +1
+1 ←
14:55:15 <SimonS> +1 think this is essential
Simon Schenk: +1 think this is essential ←
14:55:15 <LeeF> +1
Lee Feigenbaum: +1 ←
14:55:18 <Souri> +1
14:55:20 <AlexPassant> +1
Alex Passant: +1 ←
14:55:24 <LeeF> Orri: +1
Orri Erling: +1 [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
14:55:48 <iv_an_ru> I'd cheat and place one more +1
Ivan Mikhailov: I'd cheat and place one more +1 ←
<LeeF> topic: Update
Summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 13/2/2
<LeeF> summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 13/2/2
14:56:28 <john-l> LeeF: Talk about UPDATE?
Lee Feigenbaum: Talk about UPDATE? ←
14:56:28 <iv_an_ru> +1 for update
Ivan Mikhailov: +1 for update ←
14:56:28 <SteveH> q+
Steve Harris: q+ ←
14:56:32 <ywang4> +1
Yimin Wang: +1 ←
14:56:47 <ivanh> ack SteveH
Ivan Herman: ack SteveH ←
14:56:48 <LeeF> ack SteveH
Lee Feigenbaum: ack SteveH ←
14:56:57 <ericP> what's wrong with yesterda?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: what's wrong with yesterda? ←
14:57:00 <ericP> y
14:57:03 <john-l> SteveH: We want this... tomorrow.
Steve Harris: We want this... tomorrow. ←
14:57:21 <ywang4> update is essential anyway
Yimin Wang: update is essential anyway ←
14:57:30 <SteveH> but, I do /not/ want UPDATE in SPARQL, in some other langauge (forgot to say that)
Steve Harris: but, I do /not/ want UPDATE in SPARQL, in some other langauge (forgot to say that) ←
14:57:43 <john-l> LeeF: A separate SPARQL update language is implemented in a number of implementations.
Lee Feigenbaum: A separate SPARQL update language is implemented in a number of implementations. ←
14:57:50 <AndyS> +1 to separate
Andy Seaborne: +1 to separate ←
14:57:53 <john-l> ... There exists a draft specification for this.
... There exists a draft specification for this. ←
14:57:57 <SteveH> we have UPDATE feature, with a syntax that I wont defend
Steve Harris: we have UPDATE feature, with a syntax that I wont defend ←
14:57:59 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/Submission/2008/SUBM-SPARQL-Update-20080715/
Andy Seaborne: http://www.w3.org/Submission/2008/SUBM-SPARQL-Update-20080715/ ←
14:58:14 <john-l> ... This can exist in a separate recommendation.
... This can exist in a separate recommendation. ←
14:58:48 <ivanh> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
14:58:53 <LeeF> ack ivanh
Lee Feigenbaum: ack ivanh ←
14:59:05 <SteveH> q+ to answer
Steve Harris: q+ to answer ←
14:59:09 <john-l> ivanh: Would this be a separate recommendation?
Ivan Herman: Would this be a separate recommendation? ←
14:59:27 <kjetil> q+
Kjetil Kjernsmo: q+ ←
14:59:31 <john-l> SteveH: I want to see it as a separate *language*.
Steve Harris: I want to see it as a separate *language*. ←
14:59:43 <iv_an_ru> It may be enough to warn that some keywords are "reserved" from update language.
Ivan Mikhailov: It may be enough to warn that some keywords are "reserved" from update language. ←
15:00:06 <john-l> ... We need to consider security and other issues which really indicate that it should be a separate language.
... We need to consider security and other issues which really indicate that it should be a separate language. ←
15:00:31 <chimezie> +q
Chime Ogbuji: +q ←
15:00:38 <AndyS> (that was Andy - sorry)
Andy Seaborne: (that was Andy - sorry) ←
15:00:39 <LeeF> ack SteveH
Lee Feigenbaum: ack SteveH ←
15:00:39 <Zakim> SteveH, you wanted to answer
Zakim IRC Bot: SteveH, you wanted to answer ←
15:00:40 <john-l> ... If you only support query, then you should be said to support SPARQL.
... If you only support query, then you should be said to support SPARQL. ←
15:01:01 <LeeF> ack kjetil
Lee Feigenbaum: ack kjetil ←
15:01:01 <ivanh> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:01:05 <Souri> I'd prefer SPARUL to be a separate spec.
Souri Das: I'd prefer SPARUL to be a separate spec. ←
15:01:05 <ericP> motivated by andy's argument for sparql-compliance if you only do query
Eric Prud'hommeaux: motivated by andy's argument for sparql-compliance if you only do query ←
15:01:34 <john-l> kjetil: I support separating out the two components.
Kjetil Kjernsmo: I support separating out the two components. ←
15:01:39 <ericP> i'm not sure how the grammar will work
Eric Prud'hommeaux: i'm not sure how the grammar will work ←
15:01:52 <LeeF> q?
Lee Feigenbaum: q? ←
15:01:53 <LeeF> ack chimezie
Lee Feigenbaum: ack chimezie ←
15:01:54 <kjetil> Zakim, mute me
Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, mute me ←
15:01:54 <Zakim> kjetil should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: kjetil should now be muted ←
15:02:05 <iv_an_ru> ericP, read-only sparql endpoint will just report "unauthorised" to all update requests :)
Ivan Mikhailov: ericP, read-only sparql endpoint will just report "unauthorised" to all update requests :) ←
15:02:06 <ericP> LeeF, i have to go. put me down for +1 on update
Eric Prud'hommeaux: LeeF, i have to go. put me down for +1 on update ←
15:02:23 <john-l> chimezie: Updates could go to the protocol level.
Chime Ogbuji: Updates could go to the protocol level. ←
15:02:39 <LeeF> ack ivanh
Lee Feigenbaum: ack ivanh ←
15:02:39 <john-l> ... The protocol has some hooks that could allow modification.
... The protocol has some hooks that could allow modification. ←
15:02:39 <SteveH> +1 to whoever just spoke, we do that
Steve Harris: +1 to whoever just spoke, we do that ←
15:02:57 <ywang4> +1 again
Yimin Wang: +1 again ←
15:02:58 <Zakim> -EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP ←
15:03:07 <ywang4> and gotta to leave, thanks guys
Yimin Wang: and gotta to leave, thanks guys ←
15:03:08 <AndyS> EricP - could still have one grammar, two entry points (easier impl for me at least)l
Andy Seaborne: EricP - could still have one grammar, two entry points (easier impl for me at least)l ←
15:03:43 <SimonS> I have to leave. My oppinion is:
Simon Schenk: I have to leave. My oppinion is: ←
15:03:43 <kasei> service descriptions might help sort out endpoints that support update if they end up as two different different components
Greg Williams: service descriptions might help sort out endpoints that support update if they end up as two different different components ←
15:03:47 <SimonS> -1 I think this important, but security is essential. That is quite involved, so better separate it.
Simon Schenk: -1 I think this important, but security is essential. That is quite involved, so better separate it. ←
15:03:55 <chimezie> i.e., the HTTP verbs cover some of the capabilities that are being proposed as part of the current update language
Chime Ogbuji: i.e., the HTTP verbs cover some of the capabilities that are being proposed as part of the current update language ←
15:04:22 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, who's here? ←
15:04:24 <LukeWM> +1
Luke Wilson-Mawer: +1 ←
15:04:26 <john-l> LeeF: Final straw poll!
Lee Feigenbaum: Final straw poll! ←
15:04:29 <AndyS> Security matters a lot here IMHO
Andy Seaborne: Security matters a lot here IMHO ←
15:04:33 <SteveH> +1
Steve Harris: +1 ←
15:04:35 <ivanh> +1 as a separate doc and with a large amount of scare
Ivan Herman: +1 as a separate doc and with a large amount of scare ←
15:04:36 <kasei> +1
Greg Williams: +1 ←
15:04:36 <kjetil> +1 (but separate Rec, this group should do it)
Kjetil Kjernsmo: +1 (but separate Rec, this group should do it) ←
15:04:37 <john-l> +0
+0 ←
15:04:45 <SimonS> SimonS has left #sparql
Simon Schenk: SimonS has left #sparql ←
15:04:49 <Souri> -1, if separated +1
Souri Das: -1, if separated +1 ←
15:04:50 <chimezie> -1 (in its current form)
Chime Ogbuji: -1 (in its current form) ←
15:04:55 <SteveH> +1 (IFF it's a seperate language) [correction]
Steve Harris: +1 (IFF it's a seperate language) [correction] ←
15:04:58 <Zakim> -SSchenk1
Zakim IRC Bot: -SSchenk1 ←
15:05:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant ←
15:05:07 <LeeF> Orri: +1 (security might be implementation-specific)
Orri Erling: +1 (security might be implementation-specific) [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
15:05:12 <AlexPassant> +1 to get an update mechanism, no strong opinion re. included in SPARQL or related doc
Alex Passant: +1 to get an update mechanism, no strong opinion re. included in SPARQL or related doc ←
15:05:15 <dnewman2> +1
Dave Newman: +1 ←
15:05:19 <LeeF> 0
Lee Feigenbaum: 0 ←
15:05:28 <AndyS> +1 and pref seperate spec
Andy Seaborne: +1 and pref seperate spec ←
15:05:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, trackbot,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, trackbot, ←
15:05:39 <Zakim> ... ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... ericP ←
15:06:19 <LeeF> Thanks very much to john-l for scribing!
Lee Feigenbaum: Thanks very much to john-l for scribing! ←
15:06:25 <Zakim> -Chimezie_Ogbuji
Zakim IRC Bot: -Chimezie_Ogbuji ←
15:06:27 <Zakim> -DaveNewman
Zakim IRC Bot: -DaveNewman ←
15:06:29 <Zakim> -Orri
Zakim IRC Bot: -Orri ←
15:06:31 <Zakim> -ywang4
Zakim IRC Bot: -ywang4 ←
15:06:32 <LeeF> RRSAgent, draft minutes
Lee Feigenbaum: RRSAgent, draft minutes ←
15:06:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/17-sparql-minutes.html LeeF
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/17-sparql-minutes.html LeeF ←
15:06:33 <Zakim> -Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri ←
15:06:35 <Zakim> -[Garlik]
Zakim IRC Bot: -[Garlik] ←
15:06:36 <LeeF> RRSAgent, make logs world
Lee Feigenbaum: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
15:06:39 <Zakim> -LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF ←
15:06:41 <Zakim> -kjetil
Zakim IRC Bot: -kjetil ←
15:06:42 <john-l> LeeF: Do you need me to do anything else?
Lee Feigenbaum: Do you need me to do anything else? ←
15:06:43 <Zakim> -iv_an_ru
Zakim IRC Bot: -iv_an_ru ←
15:06:45 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
15:06:47 <Zakim> -AlexPassant
Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexPassant ←
15:06:47 <LeeF> john-l, nope I'll take it from here
Lee Feigenbaum: john-l, nope I'll take it from here ←
15:06:52 <john-l> LeeF: Cool, thanks!
Lee Feigenbaum: Cool, thanks! ←
15:06:59 <Zakim> -kasei
Zakim IRC Bot: -kasei ←
15:07:01 <Zakim> -john-l
Zakim IRC Bot: -john-l ←
15:07:09 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
15:07:13 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended ←
15:07:15 <Zakim> Attendees were [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, EricP, LeeF, +0491768204aaaa, ivanh, Souri, SSchenk1, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil, +1.310.729.aacc, kasei,
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, EricP, LeeF, +0491768204aaaa, ivanh, Souri, SSchenk1, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil, +1.310.729.aacc, kasei, ←
15:07:18 <Zakim> ... AlexPassant
Zakim IRC Bot: ... AlexPassant ←
15:08:13 <kasei> kasei has left #sparql
Greg Williams: kasei has left #sparql ←
15:10:54 <SteveH_> SteveH_ has joined #sparql
Steve Harris: SteveH_ has joined #sparql ←
15:11:03 <LukeWM_> LukeWM_ has joined #sparql
Luke Wilson-Mawer: LukeWM_ has joined #sparql ←
Formatted by CommonScribe
This revision (#1) generated 2009-03-17 15:38:42 UTC by 'lfeigenb', comments: 'thanks to John for scribing'