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Chatlog 2009-03-17
From SPARQL Working Group
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<LeeF> Present: SteveH, LukeWM, john-l, AndyS, EricP, LeeF, SimonS, IvanH, Souri, SSchenk1, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil, kasei, Alex 13:30:43 <LeeF> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-03-17 13:31:27 <LeeF> Regrets: Axel, Davide, Michele 13:31:42 <LeeF> Chair: LeeF 13:32:01 <LeeF> Scribenick: john-l 13:58:09 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started 13:58:16 <Zakim> +??P12 13:58:19 <AndyS> But is it standard H.323? 13:58:27 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P12 is [Garlik] 13:58:27 <Zakim> +[Garlik]; got it 13:59:17 <Zakim> +john-l 13:59:20 <Zakim> +??P19 13:59:23 <AndyS> zakim, ??P19 is me 13:59:27 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it 13:59:29 <Zakim> +Lee_Feigenbaum 13:59:58 <Zakim> +EricP 14:00:02 <LeeF> zakim, Lee_Feigenbaum is me 14:00:02 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it 14:00:10 <Zakim> + +0491768204aaaa 14:00:33 <LeeF> zakim, mute ericP 14:00:33 <Zakim> EricP should now be muted 14:00:50 <ericP> Zakim, unkute me 14:00:50 <Zakim> I don't understand 'unkute me', ericP 14:00:55 <SSchenk1> Zakim, 0491768204aaaa is me 14:00:55 <Zakim> sorry, SSchenk1, I do not recognize a party named '0491768204aaaa' 14:00:57 <ericP> Zakim, unmute me 14:00:59 <Zakim> EricP should no longer be muted 14:01:01 <ivanh> zakim, dial ivan-voip 14:01:01 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made 14:01:09 <Zakim> +Ivan 14:01:18 <john-l> Zakim, aaaa is SSchenk1 14:01:19 <ywang4> ywang4 has joined #sparql 14:01:20 <LeeF> zakim, aaaa is SSchenk1 14:01:25 <Zakim> +Souri 14:01:31 <Zakim> +SSchenk1; got it 14:01:35 <Zakim> sorry, LeeF, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa' 14:01:41 <Zakim> +ywang4 14:01:42 <kjetil> I will be semi-present on IRC, may call in later 14:02:00 <Souri> Souri has joined #sparql 14:02:32 <LeeF> zakim, who's here? 14:02:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4 14:02:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SSchenk1, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, trackbot, ericP 14:02:37 <john-l> Scribe: john-l <LeeF> topic: introductions 14:04:37 <john-l> SSchenk1: I've done work on SPARQL federation, including recent work on the Billion Triple Challenge. 14:04:38 <Zakim> +iv_an_ru 14:04:46 <john-l> ... Also see the recent introduction on the mailing list. <LeeF> topic: administrivia 14:05:30 <LeeF> -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-03-10 minutes from last week 14:05:45 <chimezie> chimezie has joined #sparql 14:06:11 <john-l> LeeF: Note that the straw polls in the minutes are not binding in any way. 14:06:15 <ericP> +1 14:06:18 <ivanh> +1 14:06:24 <LeeF> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-03-10 14:06:36 <Zakim> +Chimezie_Ogbuji 14:06:38 <Zakim> +??P51 14:06:47 <john-l> LeeF: Nothing from our liasons, correct? 14:06:51 <LeeF> zakim, ??P51 is Orri 14:06:51 <Zakim> +Orri; got it 14:07:55 <ivanh> zakim, mute me 14:07:55 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted 14:08:25 <LeeF> topic: Negation <LeeF> summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 10/4/-1 14:07:59 <john-l> LeeF: To review, we just want to get the basics of each feature out there, without too much discussion of syntax details in these meetings. 14:08:14 <john-l> ... Discussion should focus on triage. 14:08:24 <john-l> LeeF: First up, Negation. Chime? 14:08:28 <chimezie> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:Negation 14:08:54 <john-l> chimezie: This feature supports testing when a pattern does not match the active graph. 14:09:12 <john-l> ... We currently do this with OPTIONAL and a bound test. 14:09:16 <SteveH> q+ to talk about !ASK 14:09:25 <ivanh> q+ 14:09:30 <john-l> ... But we want to be able to test directly whether a pattern is not matched. 14:09:44 <ericP> +1 to intuitive 14:09:48 <LeeF> q+ to note personal pros & cons 14:09:51 <john-l> ... It would be more intuitive as a first-class operator in the language. 14:10:05 <john-l> ... Examples of different syntax are in the Wiki. 14:10:22 <ericP> i implemented unsaid in algae2 14:10:32 <SteveH> q- chimezie covered what I was going to talk about, I think 14:10:36 <john-l> ... As to use cases, there are a lot of exclusion criteria in health care informatics queries. 14:10:41 <ericP> (had a different spelling, though, something like "notfound" iirc) 14:10:43 <LeeF> ack steveh 14:10:43 <Zakim> SteveH, you wanted to talk about !ASK 14:11:40 <iv_an_ru> UNSAID become a binary operator right? 14:11:53 <iv_an_ru> {A} UNSAID {B} 14:11:53 <john-l> LeeF: Are there other implementations of Negation out there? 14:12:04 <Souri> Some simplifications on what as parameter for UNSAID: OPTIONAL not needed, UNION not needed, ... 14:12:07 <ivanh> ack ivanh 14:12:07 <AndyS> iv_an_ru: It didn't work like that 14:12:10 <LeeF> q+ Orri 14:12:29 <ericP> q+ i do 14:12:32 <john-l> ivanh: Does anyone remember what was the main issue with this feature from the previous working group? 14:12:33 <chimezie> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#unsaid 14:12:34 <SteveH> IIRC it was not included because of negation as failure concerns 14:12:44 <AndyS> q+ 14:12:56 <john-l> LeeF: There may have been an open world/closed world concern. 14:13:01 <LeeF> ack AndyS 14:13:09 <ericP> q- i 14:13:11 <ericP> q- do 14:13:13 <LeeF> q- i 14:13:18 <LeeF> q- do 14:13:19 <john-l> AndyS: We were discussing this before the algebra was introduced, when the issues surrounding failure were more complex. 14:13:28 <chimezie> Zakim, who is here? 14:13:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri 14:13:31 <Zakim> On IRC I see chimezie, Souri, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, trackbot, ericP 14:14:04 <ivanh> ack LeeF 14:14:04 <Zakim> LeeF, you wanted to note personal pros & cons 14:14:22 <Zakim> +DaveNewman 14:14:26 <john-l> LeeF: Inevitably, when teaching SPARQL, someone asks for some form of negation. 14:14:50 <AndyS> Another use case: data validation 14:14:54 <LeeF> ack Orri 14:14:55 <john-l> ... Still, we want to keep the scope of our work small, if possible. 14:15:00 <ericP> q+ to say subselect route is less easy to teach 14:15:28 <LeeF> ericP, but (much?) easier than OPTIONAL+!bound 14:15:30 <john-l> Souri: There are good social web use cases, such as asking about knowing or not knowing certain people. 14:15:37 <LeeF> s/Souri/Orri 14:15:45 <SteveH> ericP, that's a matter of opinion, I think 14:16:08 <Souri> q+ 14:16:13 <john-l> ... This has a good mapping to similar SQL concepts. 14:16:16 <ericP> SteveH, i think it's pretty defendable if you take the average joe on the street 14:16:29 <kjetil> Zakim, what is the code? 14:16:29 <Zakim> the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), kjetil 14:16:32 <SteveH> ericP, the average joe SPARQL user? 14:16:38 <ericP> there is none 14:16:53 <ericP> q- 14:16:53 <Souri> One of us (Orri and Souri) should change our names! 14:16:54 <Zakim> + +2 14:17:06 <kjetil> Zakim, mute me 14:17:06 <Zakim> sorry, kjetil, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 14:17:24 <LeeF> zakim, +2 is kjetil 14:17:24 <Zakim> +kjetil; got it 14:17:24 <kjetil> Zakim, +2 is me 14:17:25 <Zakim> sorry, kjetil, I do not recognize a party named '+2' 14:17:26 <kjetil> Zakim, mute me 14:17:26 <Zakim> kjetil should now be muted 14:17:30 <LeeF> q? 14:17:31 <dnewman2> dnewman2 has joined #sparql 14:17:38 <LeeF> ack Souri 14:18:18 <john-l> Souri: I approve this feature. We should focus on keeping this simple, wherever possible. 14:18:57 <john-l> LeeF: Time for a straw poll on negation! 14:19:14 <Souri> +1 14:19:15 <john-l> +1 14:19:16 <SteveH> +1 if a part of subSELECT, -1 otherwise 14:19:16 <kjetil> +0 14:19:17 <LukeWM> 0 14:19:26 <chimezie> +1 14:19:26 <LeeF> zakim, who's here? 14:19:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted) 14:19:29 <Zakim> On IRC I see dnewman2, chimezie, Souri, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, 14:19:31 <Zakim> ... trackbot, ericP 14:19:36 <ivanh> +1 14:19:37 <AndyS> +1 14:19:39 <ericP> 0 14:19:40 <dnewman2> +1 14:19:44 <SimonS> +1 14:19:46 <iv_an_ru> 0 if a part of subSELECT, -1 otherwise 14:19:52 <ywang4> +1 14:20:05 <LeeF> Orri: +1 14:20:16 <LeeF> LeeF: 0 14:20:43 <LeeF> topic: Property Paths <LeeF> summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 11/3/3 14:20:47 <john-l> LeeF: Now it's Andy's turn to talk about Property Paths. 14:20:49 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:PropertyPaths#Implementation_Experience_in_ARQ 14:21:28 <john-l> AndyS: A property path is a substitute for a property, and has a few additional operators. 14:21:42 <kasei> kasei has joined #sparql 14:21:45 <john-l> ... There are simple ones which are syntactic sugar, and more powerful cases. 14:21:56 <Souri> Souri has joined #sparql 14:22:51 <john-l> ... This does not introduce a new datatype. 14:22:58 <john-l> ... It provides a set of results. 14:23:10 <SteveH> q+ 14:23:14 <john-l> ... It indicates whether a path exists, not what that path is. 14:23:45 <LeeF> -> http://esw.w3.org/topic/SPARQL/Extensions/Paths has a bit more info 14:23:55 <chimezie> +q about how much of support for transitivity can be said to be covered by entailment 14:24:04 <chimezie> +q 14:24:17 <john-l> Orri: We allow paths in any expression location, but this is primarily a syntactic difference. 14:24:32 <Zakim> + +1.310.729.aacc 14:24:36 <kasei> Zakim aacc is me 14:24:54 <LeeF> zakim, aacc is kasei 14:24:54 <Zakim> +kasei; got it 14:25:00 <kasei> Zakim mute me 14:25:03 <john-l> SteveH: Can you say more about the cardinality of the result set? 14:25:26 <john-l> AndyS: ... describes how the variable binding works. 14:25:46 <kasei> Zakim, mute me 14:25:46 <Zakim> kasei should now be muted 14:25:51 <kasei> thanks Lee 14:26:29 <LeeF> q? 14:26:29 <iv_an_ru> I'll vote for PropertyPath syntax for a simple reason: it's easier to implement it once in addition to exixting Virtuoso's transitive subqueries than to explain to beginners how to write that subqueries. 14:26:34 <LeeF> ack SteveH 14:26:34 <ivanh> ack SteveH 14:26:42 <LeeF> ack chimezie 14:26:48 <dnewman2> q+ 14:27:17 <john-l> chimezie: What do implementers think about the relationship between property paths and entailment? 14:27:41 <john-l> AndyS: The driving use case is when you want to apply path walking to data when you don't have an inference mechanism. 14:28:10 <LeeF> ack dnewman2 14:28:12 <john-l> ... It can also provide direct answers for certain inference questions. 14:28:53 <john-l> dnewman2: What do you think about an extension to this for ordering the results in a transitive sequence? 14:29:02 <Zakim> + +2 14:29:04 <iv_an_ru> For me, any same-as, inference etc are invisible minor details of path traversal. Say, same-as nodes should not even appear in the resulting path. 14:29:22 <LeeF> zakim, +2 is AlexPassant 14:29:22 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it 14:30:00 <john-l> ... The use case I have in mind is doing traceability analysis. 14:30:31 <john-l> ... (A, R, B), (B, R, C), (C, R, D), and I'd like to get back A, B, C, D. 14:30:53 <john-l> AndyS: A reasoner would help you out there. 14:31:07 <john-l> dnewman2: But I won't get the results in path order. 14:32:23 <john-l> LeeF: Use the mailing list! 14:32:40 <john-l> Orri: I've answered this on the mailing list. 14:33:51 <john-l> LeeF: This is not about matching the path itself, but rather providing a feature for traversing a path when querying (that is, indicating whether such a path exists). 14:33:55 <LeeF> q? 14:33:58 <LeeF> ack dnewman2 14:34:00 <AlexPassant> q+ for path and owl:transitivity + ordering 14:34:02 <LeeF> ack dnewman 14:34:10 <LeeF> ack AlexPassant 14:34:10 <Zakim> AlexPassant, you wanted to discuss path and owl:transitivity + ordering 14:34:16 <dnewman2> q- 14:35:03 <john-l> AlexPassant: How can we maintain ordering when using inference? 14:35:11 <john-l> LeeF: Use the mailing list! 14:35:38 <LeeF> zakim, who's here? 14:35:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant 14:35:40 <ivanh> -1 I feel the proper specification for this feature would be too much for this charter... 14:35:40 <SteveH> -1 14:35:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, 14:35:42 <john-l> LeeF: Time for a straw poll about property paths. 14:35:42 <dnewman2> +1 14:35:43 <Zakim> ... trackbot, ericP 14:35:45 <john-l> -0 14:35:47 <kjetil> +1 14:35:48 <AlexPassant> +1 14:35:50 <kasei> +1 14:35:50 <chimezie> 0 14:35:58 <LukeWM> +1 14:36:06 <SimonS> +1 14:36:07 <AndyS> +1 14:36:07 <iv_an_ru> +1 14:36:13 <ericP> -1 14:36:20 <Souri> +1 but in simple form only 14:36:26 <LeeF> Orri: +1 14:36:34 <ywang4> +1 14:36:45 <ericP> what about ±0 ? 14:36:53 <LeeF> LeeF: 0 14:37:02 <Souri> What I mean by "simple" is no ordering etc. <LeeF> topic: path lengths & path-matching variables <LeeF> summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 1/6/10 14:37:27 <john-l> LeeF: Next up, path lengths. 14:37:27 <SteveH> URI? 14:37:40 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:PathLength 14:37:43 <iv_an_ru> Souri, I guess that ordering is a separate issue, '*' is The issue :) 14:38:18 <Souri> Souri has joined #sparql 14:38:34 <john-l> AlexPassant: Want to be able to specify how many properties separate two resources. 14:38:55 <john-l> ... Use cases include finding all people who are a certain number of relationships away from others. 14:39:08 <AlexPassant> http://www-sop.inria.fr/edelweiss/software/corese/v2_4_1/manual/next.php 14:39:09 <john-l> ... Implementation links should be on the Wiki. 14:39:27 <john-l> LeeF: Any other implementations? 14:39:49 <john-l> ???: These features could be subsumed by transitive subquery. 14:39:54 <john-l> s/???/Orri/ 14:39:55 <LeeF> q? 14:39:59 <iv_an_ru> s/???/Orri 14:40:50 <LeeF> The way I see it from the wiki page, this is about binding paths to the variables, followed by calculating the length of that matched path 14:41:04 <Souri> q+ 14:41:16 <LeeF> ack Souri 14:41:17 <iv_an_ru> I don't like an extra datatype that can not be even serialized for debugging 14:42:18 <AlexPassant> fyi, syntax used in the related wiki page is the Corese one, but I don't have a strong opinion on which syntax must be used for that feature 14:42:18 <john-l> Souri: There could be multiple paths between nodes, and the issue is complicated by inference, which adds triples. 14:42:44 <chimezie> We need to be careful about the fine line between incremental path-based traversal and more general (and more complex) graph-theoretic operators, such as path lenths, shortest paths, transitive closures, etc.. 14:42:49 <SteveH> it introduces binding ?vars 14:42:53 <SteveH> in FILTERs 14:43:03 <ericP> i think it's expensive, but that it be well-defined over anything with a (virtual) graph representation 14:43:22 <AndyS> SteveH - where abouts? 14:43:26 <LeeF> q? 14:43:50 <LeeF> zakim, who's here? 14:43:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant 14:43:51 <SteveH> AndyS, ah, no, I misread 14:43:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, 14:43:54 <john-l> LeeF: Time for a straw poll! 14:43:54 <SteveH> -1 14:43:55 <chimezie> -1 14:43:55 <ericP> -1 (sorry, just want a small and reallistic scope) 14:43:55 <ivanh> -1 14:43:56 <Zakim> ... trackbot, ericP 14:43:56 <LukeWM> -1 14:43:56 <Souri> -1 14:43:57 <john-l> -0 14:43:57 <kasei> -1 14:43:57 <AndyS> -1 to introducing a new datatype 14:43:57 <AlexPassant> +1 14:44:00 <dnewman2> ericP: 0 14:44:01 <iv_an_ru> -1 14:44:02 <kjetil> 0 if propertypaths is done, +1 otherwise 14:44:02 <SimonS> 0 14:44:18 <LeeF> -1 14:44:37 <LeeF> Orri: 0 (very useful but may be difficult to get consensus) 14:44:49 <ywang4> 0 14:45:01 <ywang4> sorry the line was not clear enough.. 14:45:35 <LeeF> topic: Aggregates <LeeF> summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 16/1/0 14:45:37 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:AggregateFunctions 14:45:37 <john-l> LeeF: Next up: aggregates. 14:46:02 <john-l> ... Take a whole bunch of bindings and group them together. This is common in SQL. 14:46:11 <john-l> ... Either one big group or subgroups. 14:46:56 <Souri> +1 :-) I had proposed COUNT in SPARQL 1 14:47:10 <john-l> ... This is a very common request when explaining SPARQL. 14:47:30 <john-l> ... Several implementations listed on the Wiki. 14:47:43 <john-l> ... Postponed by SPARQL 2008 due to lack of implementation experience. 14:48:39 <john-l> SteveH: Answering aggregate questions is hard for a couple other reasons, such as dealing with OWL and *what* is being counted. 14:49:04 <ericP> emphatically, we are a graph language 14:49:08 <john-l> LeeF: Do we collapse counts for owl:sameAs? 14:49:13 <LeeF> q? 14:49:16 <iv_an_ru> IMHO, aggregates are unavoidable, the only question is how the end-point should describe user-defined aggregates in its capabilities ;) 14:49:33 <Souri> +q 14:49:44 <john-l> Orri: Aggregates are a must-have. 14:50:03 <kasei> +q to ask about numeric types and agregates 14:50:18 <john-l> ... We have a partial implementation that deals with owl:sameAs. 14:50:19 <LeeF> ack Souri 14:50:48 <chimezie> +q to ask if aggregate champions envision extending SELECT expressions only with aggregate functions or more general expressions 14:50:50 <kasei> Zakim, unmute me 14:50:55 <Zakim> kasei should no longer be muted 14:50:56 <LeeF> ack kasei 14:50:57 <iv_an_ru> There's need in handwritten group by in some cases, but not so often. 14:50:59 <Zakim> kasei, you wanted to ask about numeric types and agregates 14:51:22 <AndyS> q+ to reply to Greg 14:51:31 <Souri> How about HAVING to go with GROUP BY? 14:51:34 <john-l> kasei: How do you deal with datatype mismatch? 14:51:52 <LeeF> ack AndyS 14:51:52 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to reply to Greg 14:52:02 <john-l> Several implementators indicate that they skip non-numbers. 14:52:30 <kasei> Zakim, mute me 14:52:30 <Zakim> kasei should now be muted 14:52:35 <LeeF> ack chimezie 14:52:35 <Zakim> chimezie, you wanted to ask if aggregate champions envision extending SELECT expressions only with aggregate functions or more general expressions 14:52:45 <iv_an_ru> more general 14:52:46 <SteveH> max(xsd:decimal(?x)) is possible 14:53:38 <john-l> LeeF: Aggregate expressions should go with more general scalar expressions. 14:53:43 <LeeF> q? 14:54:15 <john-l> LeeF: Any substantial concerns about aggregates? 14:54:39 <SteveH> it has a strong relation to subSELECTs in the SQL world 14:54:41 <john-l> chimezie: We just need to walk carefully around the open world basis. 14:54:50 <SteveH> and things like CONCAT() coupld be complex in SPARQL 14:55:04 <LeeF> zakim, who's here? 14:55:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant 14:55:04 <kasei> +1 14:55:06 <chimezie> +1 14:55:07 <ericP> 0 14:55:07 <LukeWM> +1 14:55:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, 14:55:08 <SteveH> +1 14:55:08 <AndyS> +1 14:55:08 <john-l> LeeF: Straw poll time! 14:55:09 <ywang4> +1 14:55:09 <iv_an_ru> +1 14:55:09 <ivanh> +1 with the mild worry about the owl related issues 14:55:09 <Zakim> ... trackbot, ericP 14:55:09 <kjetil> +1 14:55:10 <dnewman2> +1 14:55:12 <john-l> +1 14:55:15 <SimonS> +1 think this is essential 14:55:15 <LeeF> +1 14:55:18 <Souri> +1 14:55:20 <AlexPassant> +1 14:55:24 <LeeF> Orri: +1 14:55:48 <iv_an_ru> I'd cheat and place one more +1 <LeeF> topic: Update <LeeF> summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 13/2/2 14:56:28 <john-l> LeeF: Talk about UPDATE? 14:56:28 <iv_an_ru> +1 for update 14:56:28 <SteveH> q+ 14:56:32 <ywang4> +1 14:56:47 <ivanh> ack SteveH 14:56:48 <LeeF> ack SteveH 14:56:57 <ericP> what's wrong with yesterda? 14:57:00 <ericP> y 14:57:03 <john-l> SteveH: We want this... tomorrow. 14:57:21 <ywang4> update is essential anyway 14:57:30 <SteveH> but, I do /not/ want UPDATE in SPARQL, in some other langauge (forgot to say that) 14:57:43 <john-l> LeeF: A separate SPARQL update language is implemented in a number of implementations. 14:57:50 <AndyS> +1 to separate 14:57:53 <john-l> ... There exists a draft specification for this. 14:57:57 <SteveH> we have UPDATE feature, with a syntax that I wont defend 14:57:59 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/Submission/2008/SUBM-SPARQL-Update-20080715/ 14:58:14 <john-l> ... This can exist in a separate recommendation. 14:58:48 <ivanh> q+ 14:58:53 <LeeF> ack ivanh 14:59:05 <SteveH> q+ to answer 14:59:09 <john-l> ivanh: Would this be a separate recommendation? 14:59:27 <kjetil> q+ 14:59:31 <john-l> SteveH: I want to see it as a separate *language*. 14:59:43 <iv_an_ru> It may be enough to warn that some keywords are "reserved" from update language. 15:00:06 <john-l> ... We need to consider security and other issues which really indicate that it should be a separate language. 15:00:31 <chimezie> +q 15:00:38 <AndyS> (that was Andy - sorry) 15:00:39 <LeeF> ack SteveH 15:00:39 <Zakim> SteveH, you wanted to answer 15:00:40 <john-l> ... If you only support query, then you should be said to support SPARQL. 15:01:01 <LeeF> ack kjetil 15:01:01 <ivanh> q+ 15:01:05 <Souri> I'd prefer SPARUL to be a separate spec. 15:01:05 <ericP> motivated by andy's argument for sparql-compliance if you only do query 15:01:34 <john-l> kjetil: I support separating out the two components. 15:01:39 <ericP> i'm not sure how the grammar will work 15:01:52 <LeeF> q? 15:01:53 <LeeF> ack chimezie 15:01:54 <kjetil> Zakim, mute me 15:01:54 <Zakim> kjetil should now be muted 15:02:05 <iv_an_ru> ericP, read-only sparql endpoint will just report "unauthorised" to all update requests :) 15:02:06 <ericP> LeeF, i have to go. put me down for +1 on update 15:02:23 <john-l> chimezie: Updates could go to the protocol level. 15:02:39 <LeeF> ack ivanh 15:02:39 <john-l> ... The protocol has some hooks that could allow modification. 15:02:39 <SteveH> +1 to whoever just spoke, we do that 15:02:57 <ywang4> +1 again 15:02:58 <Zakim> -EricP 15:03:07 <ywang4> and gotta to leave, thanks guys 15:03:08 <AndyS> EricP - could still have one grammar, two entry points (easier impl for me at least)l 15:03:43 <SimonS> I have to leave. My oppinion is: 15:03:43 <kasei> service descriptions might help sort out endpoints that support update if they end up as two different different components 15:03:47 <SimonS> -1 I think this important, but security is essential. That is quite involved, so better separate it. 15:03:55 <chimezie> i.e., the HTTP verbs cover some of the capabilities that are being proposed as part of the current update language 15:04:22 <LeeF> zakim, who's here? 15:04:24 <LukeWM> +1 15:04:26 <john-l> LeeF: Final straw poll! 15:04:29 <AndyS> Security matters a lot here IMHO 15:04:33 <SteveH> +1 15:04:35 <ivanh> +1 as a separate doc and with a large amount of scare 15:04:36 <kasei> +1 15:04:36 <kjetil> +1 (but separate Rec, this group should do it) 15:04:37 <john-l> +0 15:04:45 <SimonS> SimonS has left #sparql 15:04:49 <Souri> -1, if separated +1 15:04:50 <chimezie> -1 (in its current form) 15:04:55 <SteveH> +1 (IFF it's a seperate language) [correction] 15:04:58 <Zakim> -SSchenk1 15:05:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant 15:05:07 <LeeF> Orri: +1 (security might be implementation-specific) 15:05:12 <AlexPassant> +1 to get an update mechanism, no strong opinion re. included in SPARQL or related doc 15:05:15 <dnewman2> +1 15:05:19 <LeeF> 0 15:05:28 <AndyS> +1 and pref seperate spec 15:05:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, trackbot, 15:05:39 <Zakim> ... ericP 15:06:19 <LeeF> Thanks very much to john-l for scribing! 15:06:25 <Zakim> -Chimezie_Ogbuji 15:06:27 <Zakim> -DaveNewman 15:06:29 <Zakim> -Orri 15:06:31 <Zakim> -ywang4 15:06:32 <LeeF> RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:06:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/17-sparql-minutes.html LeeF 15:06:33 <Zakim> -Souri 15:06:35 <Zakim> -[Garlik] 15:06:36 <LeeF> RRSAgent, make logs world 15:06:39 <Zakim> -LeeF 15:06:41 <Zakim> -kjetil 15:06:42 <john-l> LeeF: Do you need me to do anything else? 15:06:43 <Zakim> -iv_an_ru 15:06:45 <Zakim> -Ivan 15:06:47 <Zakim> -AlexPassant 15:06:47 <LeeF> john-l, nope I'll take it from here 15:06:52 <john-l> LeeF: Cool, thanks! 15:06:59 <Zakim> -kasei 15:07:01 <Zakim> -john-l 15:07:09 <Zakim> -AndyS 15:07:13 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended 15:07:15 <Zakim> Attendees were [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, EricP, LeeF, +0491768204aaaa, ivanh, Souri, SSchenk1, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil, +1.310.729.aacc, kasei, 15:07:18 <Zakim> ... AlexPassant 15:08:13 <kasei> kasei has left #sparql 15:10:54 <SteveH_> SteveH_ has joined #sparql 15:11:03 <LukeWM_> LukeWM_ has joined #sparql # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000480