See also: IRC log
<scribe> agenda: this
<Stevef> Recommendations regarding Long Text Alternatives http://www.w3.org/2009/06/Text-Alternatives-in-HTML5
<cyns> SF: alt text. I looked back at the wai concensus doc, and it reflected what I was saying in the WAI PF meeting yesterday
<cyns> RS: I hate longdesc
<cyns> JS: I think we agreed to obsolete longdesc
<cyns> SF: that path requires behavior for aria-described-by that weren't agreed to by ppl like Rich
<cyns> RS: in the accessibiltiy API, all described by is is a relationship that will take you somewhere in your doc, anywhere you want it to. I hate the idea of putting a link in there and forcing the browser to take the link.
<cyns> JS: force, or offer to the browser?
<cyns> SF: I thought it was just an offer
<cyns> RS: ok, that's better.
<cyns> SF: in the case where the longdesc has ref and id that's on a link, and the link text is further description, provide a mechnaism for the user to be albe to navigate teh link. A mechnanism whereby te user can move to the structured content
<cyns> RS: no problem with taht
<cyns> SF: a number of ID references could be a problem. Describedby is just supposed to concatenate text from multiple references.
<cyns> RS: if the content is hidden, tehre's nowhere to go to. it'll be in the dom but not in teh API
<cyns> RS: if it's hidden, UA will fill in MSAA description with whatever text it can gleen. It's like help text, can work with tooltip or whatever. But, the current interface in JAWS provides a mechanism to go to the descriptin.
<cyns> SF: The way to go there needs to be specked out for the AT vendor.
<cyns> JS: because longdesc was not a success
<cyns> RS: what about if there's more than one IDREF for description? That's not spec'd, and needs to be.
<cyns> SF: we could provide a set of steps. EG if the ID is on a table, move to table, if it's on a link provide an option to activate the link, if it's just a text container, just read out the content.
<cyns> MC: just allow normal processing, just go to the described by section. if there's a link, the user can click/activate it.
<cyns> RS: we can't make AT vendors do it.
<cyns> CS; no w3c specs for AT, hole
<cyns> RS: there is history, reasons for this.
<cyns> RS: AT vendors wouldn't follow first UAAG spec
<cyns> SF; need to revisist what we've said in text alternative document
<cyns> SF: provide idea in implementiaon guide on how we think AT should implement it.
<cyns> CS: put AT guidelines in UAG? or separate doc? good idea, but increase in scope
<cyns> RS: good luck getting them to do it.
<cyns> CS: took 10 years with browsers, maybe time to start with AT?
<cyns> JS; existing mechanism (longdesc) is a failure, look at why, build from that
<cyns> SF: some AT and browser vendors did implement longdesc
<cyns> SF: if we provide a better mechanism, they may implement it.
<cyns> JS: part of why we like ability to point via href via aria-describedby, is that we could do various media, not just text
<cyns> SF: if you have a long text alternative relationship, if there are 1 or 10 things you're pointing to, the user can get access to those things
<cyns> JS: jst like any 1 or 10 hrefs on a web page, no a special case
<cyns> RS: can you give me an example where you'd need more than one described-by?
<cyns> SF: one image that's more than one table? A graph, a data table in html that provides the data, that's the sort of relationship that a user would want to know about
<cyns> CS: multiple alternative versions for cognitive, like a picture, a video, a shorter version of the text, etc.
<cyns> RS: so, we need to say that if there are multiple IDREFs, each is an alternative description. AT can then bring up a list box, and you can pick the one you want.
<cyns> SF: agree
<cyns> JS: list should tell you want mime type it is
<cyns> RS: would have to be in a target
<cyns> CS: sounds like a may
<cyns> JS: I'd accept a MAY, or a SHOULD
<cyns> RS; do we want to put in in the spec?
<cyns> what about mainstream UA? should we ask them to do that?
<cyns> CS: yes, I think so
<cyns> RS: in the spec, make that a should or a may for now. When IE or FF does it, HTML5 will follow
<cyns> resolved: Multiple IDREF in an aria-describedby MUST be interpreted as multiple alternative rendereings, AT and other UA may expose mime-type to the user, non-AT UA SHOULD provide a mechanism for navigating to the IDREF
<cyns> RESOLVED: Multiple IDREF in an aria-describedby MUST be interpreted as multiple alternative rendereings, AT and other UA may expose mime-type to the user, non-AT UA SHOULD provide a mechanism for navigating to the IDREF
<scribe> scribe: janina
js: open agenda today, any topics for us?
rs: someone should be designated to start submitting changes from our spread sheet
cs: the mappings?
rs: yes, we're taking ian's and redoing it, so create an issue, make this change, etc
cs: i was thinking putting the entire table in as a change request
rs: were you planning to cover this on aria call?
rs: should probably run on the aria group
cs: didn't we decide this at our f2f?
js: for our santa clara f2f?
cs: would like to get it to html
wg before then
... at the very least i'd like to have this ready to submit by f2f
rs: i'll try to add some of the external dependencies
cs: frank fro ie team working on a canvas proposal, related, needs rich's guidance
rs: is there likely to be an html6 on the heels of html5?
cs: certainly a discussion
rs: instrumenting an a11y api for
html5 will be almost impossible -- re canvas
... we can add dom, but that's aria2 --
cs: canvas is so different from html
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Found Scribe: janina Inferring ScribeNick: janina WARNING: No "Topic:" lines found. Default Present: Cynthia_Shelly, Janina, Cooper, Rich Present: Cynthia_Shelly Janina Cooper Rich Got date from IRC log name: 16 Oct 2009 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2009/10/16-pf-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: No "Topic: ..." lines found! Resulting HTML may have an empty (invalid) <ol>...</ol>. Explanation: "Topic: ..." lines are used to indicate the start of new discussion topics or agenda items, such as: <dbooth> Topic: Review of Amy's report[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]