15:01:17 RRSAgent has joined #pf 15:01:17 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/10/16-pf-irc 15:01:22 zakim, this will be pf 15:01:23 ok, janina, I see WAI_PFWG(HTML)11:00AM already started 15:01:31 zakim, call janina 15:01:31 ok, janina; the call is being made 15:01:32 +Cynthia_Shelly 15:01:32 +Janina 15:02:08 Meeting: PF/HTML_Caucus telecon 15:02:08 Chair: Janina_Sajka 15:02:08 agenda: this 15:02:08 agenda+ identify scribe 15:02:08 agenda+ Recent Developments: HTML WG Process; Joint TF Organization 15:02:09 agenda+ next and future meetings 15:02:11 agenda+ be done 15:02:18 MichaelC has joined #pf 15:02:40 +Cooper 15:03:18 +Rich 15:03:36 richardschwerdtfe has joined #pf 15:04:11 Recommendations regarding Long Text Alternatives http://www.w3.org/2009/06/Text-Alternatives-in-HTML5 15:05:15 cyns has joined #pf 15:05:59 SF: alt text. I looked back at the wai concensus doc, and it reflected what I was saying in the WAI PF meeting yesterday 15:06:06 RS: I hate longdesc 15:06:19 JS: I think we agreed to obsolete longdesc 15:06:42 SF: that path requires behavior for aria-described-by that weren't agreed to by ppl like Rich 15:07:26 RS: in the accessibiltiy API, all described by is is a relationship that will take you somewhere in your doc, anywhere you want it to. I hate the idea of putting a link in there and forcing the browser to take the link. 15:07:34 JS: force, or offer to the browser? 15:07:43 SF: I thought it was just an offer 15:07:53 RS: ok, that's better. 15:08:35 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:08:35 On the phone I see ??P4, Cynthia_Shelly, Janina, Cooper, Rich 15:08:45 SF: in the case where the longdesc has ref and id that's on a link, and the link text is further description, provide a mechnaism for the user to be albe to navigate teh link. A mechnanism whereby te user can move to the structured content 15:08:52 RS: no problem with taht 15:09:30 SF: a number of ID references could be a problem. Describedby is just supposed to concatenate text from multiple references. 15:09:51 RS: if the content is hidden, tehre's nowhere to go to. it'll be in the dom but not in teh API 15:10:37 RS: if it's hidden, UA will fill in MSAA description with whatever text it can gleen. It's like help text, can work with tooltip or whatever. But, the current interface in JAWS provides a mechanism to go to the descriptin. 15:10:59 SF: The way to go there needs to be specked out for the AT vendor. 15:11:09 JS: because longdesc was not a success 15:11:30 RS: what about if there's more than one IDREF for description? That's not spec'd, and needs to be. 15:12:04 SF: we could provide a set of steps. EG if the ID is on a table, move to table, if it's on a link provide an option to activate the link, if it's just a text container, just read out the content. 15:13:03 MC: just allow normal processing, just go to the described by section. if there's a link, the user can click/activate it. 15:13:28 RS: we can't make AT vendors do it. 15:13:49 CS; no w3c specs for AT, hole 15:13:57 RS: there is history, reasons for this. 15:14:19 RS: AT vendors wouldn't follow first UAAG spec 15:14:40 SF; need to revisist what we've said in text alternative document 15:15:00 SF: provide idea in implementiaon guide on how we think AT should implement it. 15:16:50 CS: put AT guidelines in UAG? or separate doc? good idea, but increase in scope 15:16:57 RS: good luck getting them to do it. 15:17:11 CS: took 10 years with browsers, maybe time to start with AT? 15:17:30 JS; existing mechanism (longdesc) is a failure, look at why, build from that 15:17:41 SF: some AT and browser vendors did implement longdesc 15:18:04 SF: if we provide a better mechanism, they may implement it. 15:18:34 JS: part of why we like ability to point via href via aria-describedby, is that we could do various media, not just text 15:18:56 SF: if you have a long text alternative relationship, if there are 1 or 10 things you're pointing to, the user can get access to those things 15:19:09 JS: jst like any 1 or 10 hrefs on a web page, no a special case 15:19:26 RS: can you give me an example where you'd need more than one described-by? 15:20:05 SF: one image that's more than one table? A graph, a data table in html that provides the data, that's the sort of relationship that a user would want to know about 15:21:05 CS: multiple alternative versions for cognitive, like a picture, a video, a shorter version of the text, etc. 15:21:32 RS: so, we need to say that if there are multiple IDREFs, each is an alternative description. AT can then bring up a list box, and you can pick the one you want. 15:21:37 SF: agree 15:21:55 JS: list should tell you want mime type it is 15:22:07 RS: would have to be in a target 15:22:11 CS: sounds like a may 15:22:20 JS: I'd accept a MAY, or a SHOULD 15:22:47 RS; do we want to put in in the spec? 15:24:22 what about mainstream UA? should we ask them to do that? 15:24:32 CS: yes, I think so 15:24:51 RS: in the spec, make that a should or a may for now. When IE or FF does it, HTML5 will follow 15:29:35 -??P4 15:32:02 resolved: Multiple IDREF in an aria-describedby MUST be interpreted as multiple alternative rendereings, AT and other UA may expose mime-type to the user, non-AT UA SHOULD provide a mechanism for navigating to the IDREF 15:32:36 RESOLVED: Multiple IDREF in an aria-describedby MUST be interpreted as multiple alternative rendereings, AT and other UA may expose mime-type to the user, non-AT UA SHOULD provide a mechanism for navigating to the IDREF 15:33:53 scribe: janina 15:34:09 js: open agenda today, any topics for us? 15:34:26 rs: someone should be designated to start submitting changes from our spread sheet 15:34:45 cs: the mappings? 15:35:03 rs: yes, we're taking ian's and redoing it, so create an issue, make this change, etc 15:35:14 cs: i was thinking putting the entire table in as a change request 15:35:48 rs: were you planning to cover this on aria call? 15:35:54 cs: could 15:36:06 rs: should probably run on the aria group 15:36:16 cs: didn't we decide this at our f2f? 15:36:49 js: for our santa clara f2f? 15:36:57 cs: would like to get it to html wg before then 15:38:29 cs: at the very least i'd like to have this ready to submit by f2f 15:39:27 rs: i'll try to add some of the external dependencies 15:41:50 cs: frank fro ie team working on a canvas proposal, related, needs rich's guidance 15:42:09 rs: is there likely to be an html6 on the heels of html5? 15:42:15 cs: certainly a discussion 15:43:03 rs: instrumenting an a11y api for html5 will be almost impossible -- re canvas 15:44:00 rs: we can add dom, but that's aria2 -- 15:44:10 cs: canvas is so different from html 15:47:19 -Cynthia_Shelly 15:51:10 -Rich 15:54:13 -Cooper 15:54:14 -Janina 15:54:15 WAI_PFWG(HTML)11:00AM has ended 15:54:16 Attendees were Cynthia_Shelly, Janina, Cooper, Rich 15:54:18 zakim, bye 15:54:18 Zakim has left #pf 15:54:25 rrsagent, make log public 15:54:32 rrsagent, make minutes 15:54:32 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/16-pf-minutes.html janina 17:50:36 janina has left #pf 19:46:04 richardschwerdtfe has joined #pf