See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 30 September 2009
<tpa> Hi guys, I'm sorry I'm going to have to miss this one, there seems to be no signal at all where I'm at today.
<hhalpin> no problem tpa
<hhalpin> did you check in with henry story yet?
<tpa> hhalpin: we're supposed to do it sometime this week
<tpa> hhalpin: we should also talk at some point, off-weekly call and confer about the use cases and the resulting document we're aiming for?
<tpa> I guess we'll figure that out at a more convenient time, I'll be emailing you.
<melvster> hhalpin: i think you got the wrong phone handle
<melvster> ill redail in
<melvster> i think i was ??P13
<melvster> i hung up and it said -hhalpin
<hhalpin> zakim agenda+ General Organization
<hhalpin> zakim agenda+ Invited Guest - Peter St. Andre on XMPP
i can scribe
<hhalpin> scribe: mischat
<hhalpin> ROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 23rd September 2009 as a true record plus adding rreck
<hhalpin> PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 23rd September 2009 as a true record plus adding rreck
<hhalpin> RESOLVED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 23rd September 2009 as a true record plus adding rreck
<hhalpin> PROPOSED: to meet again Wed. October 7th
<rreck> +1 meet again
<hhalpin> Next Wed is Evan from OpenMicroblogging.
<hhalpin> Also requested we move things 2 hours back if possible.
evan request for 2 hours back
<danbri> (back meaning forward :)
<petef> into the future
<hhalpin> Moving meeting to 13:00UTC
<danbri> back to the future :)
moving meeting to 13:00 UTC
<petef> Already 13:00 UTC
<danbri> i support moving it
<tinkster> It's already 13:00 UTC.
<petef> move to 15:00 UTC
<hhalpin> Moving meeting to 15:00UTC
<danbri> everyone is confused around timezones anyhow, this time of year
<hhalpin> If we don't get any objetions
<rreck> +1 move meeting time to 15:00UTC
<hhalpin> then move next meeting to 15:00UTC.
<tinkster> I'm happy with 15:00 UTC for next week (and indeed, generally).
harry to ask the list this week, if no objections we move to 15:00 UTC
<hhalpin> RESOLVED: Unless objections from list, telecons moved to 15:00 UTC from now on.
<danbri> are we expecting stpeter now?
<tinkster> bblfish, is that "no. problem." or "no problem."
<hhalpin> Technical Plenary?
<hhalpin> Whose going to technical plenary?
<bblfish> no problem. or +1
<bblfish> I should be going
<danbri> i can't make it
<petef> not me
<tinkster> not me
<melvster> not me
<jsalvachua> not me ;(
<AndreaP> not me
<hajons> don't know yet
<danbri> (i did talk to Kevin Marks about possibility of him talking; passed that on to harry/ian)
henry, fabien are going
<hhalpin> you should register asap, the calendar is correct now.
<hhalpin> I know you DKA
if people want to go they should register asap
<hhalpin> and then's this open social web day.
<hhalpin> Is anyone going to Internet Identity Workshop?
<FabGandon> not going to IIW
<hhalpin> Which is right afterwards...
which is right after the technical plenary
<hhalpin> ok just checking in...
<jsalvachua> not me
registration fees are going up for the IIW
so if you want to go then you should get on it asap
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] DKA to summarize OSLO and geoLocation conversation in order to spread knowledge of these efforts among W3C members. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action01]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] Mischa to describe/implement a report of terms and conditions, and how they change between now and the end of the XG. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action02]
i will get mine done soon, I have been recovering from submitting thesis this last week
danbri is a technically a bad person :)
has anyone looked at the activity streams work ?
<petef> I have had a brief look
<hajons> me too
<petef> Happy to look deeper and perhaps write a summary for the wiki
hasn't danbri looked at it in the notube work ?
<hajons> opensocial and activity streams are looking to align
<hhalpin> I think it's definitely worth summarziing for the wiki and yes it is aligning to opensocial.
harry thinks it would be good for some to host a session on the activity streams work
<hhalpin> ACTION: Harry to invite Ben Laurie from OAuth/Google Wave security to W3C Social Web talk [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-92 - Invite Ben Laurie from OAuth/Google Wave security to W3C Social Web talk [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-10-07].
<petef> Do we have Chris Messina on the invite list already?
who spoke ?
<danbri> +1 for having it in the final report at least, and seems good to invite them to present
<hhalpin> ACTION: petef to look into activitystreams invite, maybe Chris Messina [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - petef
+1 to having on the final report
<hhalpin> ACTION: pferne to look into activitystreams invite, maybe Chris Messina [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-93 - Look into activitystreams invite, maybe Chris Messina [on Peter Ferne - due 2009-10-07].
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] cperey to book global lockbox as an invited speaker [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action06]
i will get the mail out to the BBC persian people
please do :)
<hhalpin> ACTION: mischat to invite BBC Persia people to talk about their use of social media [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - mischat
<hhalpin> ACTION: mtuffield to invite BBC Persia people to talk about their use of social media [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action08]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - mtuffield
<hhalpin> ACTION: mtiffiel to invite BBC Persia people to talk about their use of social media [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action09]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-94 - Invite BBC Persia people to talk about their use of social media [on Mischa Tuffield - due 2009-10-07].
<hhalpin> Quick note Christine on Open Social Web day?
re user stories, oshani is away today
<danbri> oof http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/InvitedGuests takes a while to load
Christine has talked to Dan, re : OPen Social Web day. Dan to add to the wiki, and will be setting up an eventbrite for the event
a conference call is scheduled for this coming friday
there is a need for some more marketing to happen
henry, just an email confirmation that the auditorium has been booked along with
<hhalpin> good news!
projectors, wifi, and stuff
harry had a question about the user stories, perhaps they are too complicated
<hhalpin> it would nice to get user story doc done between TPAC
<hhalpin> sorry before TPAC!
christine has taken a high level ID, so that the use cases can be clustered
<hhalpin> is this work online?
high level concepts to classify the user stories
for organisational purposes
christine to check if she can get the document she was been working on online
<rreck> please do
so christine will aim to share the structure she has built with the groups
<hhalpin> Goal, Summary, Actors, Preconditions, Trigger, Basic Course of Events, Alternative Paths, postconditons, business rules and then metadata about author/date.
at the moment we have goals, actions, triggers, ...
<hhalpin> remove some ofit.
harry would like to remove of it
harry thinks it is a bit too complicated at the moment
<rreck> +1 summary
harry would like to get some summaries and pre-conditions up
<rreck> -1 business rules
<bblfish> Just as interest, here is a very developed set of user stories for the future of identity http://www.fidis.net/resources/identity-revolution/ with real stories. Clearly we don't need to go that far. But it is an interesting example
simplify the use stories to 3 parts
<petef> +1 for simplification
summary, pre-conditions, post-conditions ?
<rreck> i think actors is self evident possibly
can you repeat that hhalpin ?
<hhalpin> pre-condition/basic course of events/goal accomplished (maybe alternative paths)?
<hhalpin> So just have 3 categories for every use-case.
<bblfish> seems ok
i am happy to go through and summarise if need be
<bblfish> ok. I am in the same offices as tim right now
bblfish: i didn't get any of that
<hajons> breaking up
you were breaking up
<bblfish> YEs, the link is here http://www.fidis.net/resources/identity-revolution/
<bblfish> looks like a fashion magazine
bblfish: saw this at the social web camp.
<bblfish> but it's called "Identity Revolution - Multi Disclipinary Perspectives"
<bblfish> very developed user stories on identity with very in depth characters
xmpp, and how it can be integrated from the social web
<hhalpin> Peter go for it!
and how it will fit in with the w3c and the wider community
people which are interested in microblogging, buddy cloud
<hhalpin> the relationship with OMB would be interesting.
trying to figure out what problems the SWXG are trying to solve
and how the XMPP community can help
the SWXG has noticed that the W3C has ignored the social web tech
and the group wants to write an introductory report on the landscape of technologies in the social web
for example the widgets work, and the open social work, and how this is pushing towards the notion of a decentralised social network
so the group would like to figure how the W3C can help influence future development on the social Web
and the group is interested in how the technologies can be built upon, technologies like openid, oauth, xmpp
<hhalpin> (sorry, should have went through them one at a time!)
xmpp grew out of instance messaging
the initial idea was to build ontop of XML, taking the ideas of Jabber and building on XML to build a stream
<hhalpin> 1. Final Report on over-arching technologies 2. Adoption of social web technologies by W3C internally 3. How the W3C should evolve to interact with the wider social web commuity
the idea was to have a peer-2-peer based method of shifting xml between points on the web
<hhalpin> so it started out very general purpose
<hhalpin> that's interesting
xmpp was designed be a generalised transport mechanism
rpc technology, some gaming, file sharing, file sharing, google wave
are all built on top of xmpp
<danbri> re google talk see http://code.google.com/apis/talk/jep_extensions/extensions.html
google talk using xmpp for their signalling channel to set up voice and video calls
<danbri> (google talk basic text messages are themselves xmpp)
there is a standards body
<danbri> re social, ... see http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/social
pidgin is implementing an open-source xmpp
<hhalpin> how oauth and openid fit in with XMPP is quite interesting.
<danbri> oauth - http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0235.html
plans are afoot to use oauth and xmpp
<danbri> fireeagle and xmpp see http://fireeagle.yahoo.net/developer/documentation/xmpp_faq
this is used in fireeagle
<danbri> (also not mentioned but hey... rdf query over xmpp - http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/jqbus/intro.html )
<hhalpin> I thought it switched from polling to pushing...
polling is a problem on services, and xmpp fixes this by pushing
this technology is becoming popular for real time search
this can save service providers on hardware wear and tear
apple is doing some experiments with push for their iphone tech
<hhalpin> Is pubsub
<hhalpin> (I think)
there is work in the xmpp community on the transport tech side, but there isn't much movement in the development of social software
<stpeter> hhalpin: that is correct
<hhalpin> Good overview
<hhalpin> go for danbri!
perhaps the w3c would be a place where the xmpp could integrate with social web people
<danbri> q re MUC (multi user chat)
danbri question : lots of people are stuck in the IRC world, and IM chats are advancing faster than multi user chat
so there is xmpp work in an online chat room chess game? and this builds upon a multi user chat room
MUC could be used for real-time modeling of a XML sequence, could be used to collaboratively write documents
xmpp has some strong points ;
XML, a good thing, we fixed some security issues which IRC had
<hhalpin> one question would be if XMPP should at some point replace IRC as a communication point for W3C.
<tinkster> hmmm... create a MUC, invite email@example.com and start working on XHTML snippets...
<hhalpin> yes, this might be an effective way of working although the W3C has a lot of infrastructure invested in IRC.
xmpp has a cert based authentication
and doesn't reveal your IP address as in IRC
there is ongoing work to distribute rooms over a network so that if a peer goes down
xmpp community haven't tried to get rid off IRC, or other tech
collaborative point of view, you can send structure data, you could have forms pop up for voting
<hhalpin> department of defence mischat
xmpp is the only approved chat mechanism for the dod
<hhalpin> part of the usa government
IRC had too many security issues, and the dod are moving to use XMPP group chat
<hhalpin> native prescence +1
and we have a link to the chess game ?
XMPP has support for native presence information, and for network availability
<caribou> audience segregation for presence?
presence information is not on IRC
<melvster> pidgin handles both irc and xmpp -- im using it now ...
<tinkster> Well, I'm currently on Pidgin which does both IRC and XMPP chats.
so when the distributed room problem gets solved in xmpp then it may be a viable replacement for IRC
i too use pidgin
there is lot of ongoing work on the xmpp front to build towards the distributed muc
lots of open source implementations
there are projects which are working on clustering and high availability for high volumes of users
the prosody project is having a go at the distributedmuc
hajons, now that xmpp is standardised, do you think that big companies like google will not implement the standard?
<hhalpin> hajons asked about standards now that XMPP is being used in Google Wave etc.
xmpp which used to be called jabber, came about 10 years ago, distributed comms model, and the exchange of XML turned it into XMPP
rfc came about in 2004
since the work was put into the rfc, people can now write their own implementations
<rreck> who would have ever thought standards could promote interoperability?
google talk extended the spec for the video signalling
jingle work was very similar to google talk
and the jingle tech is now in the xmpp specs, and google are now looking to harmonise the open-source implementations of jingle with their google talk
still early days in google wave. google wave are trying to develop the technology in the open, which was different to the google talk. google talk was implemented and then it was released in the wild
<hhalpin> Do people mind extending the call 15-20 minutes to deal with questions?
<rreck> +1 extend, but i may have to drop
xmpp is a good community of people, and they are standardisation friendly
<jsalvachua> +1 extend
harry question : are there plans for the xmpp auth to be integrated with openid
and second question, will xmpp integrate with the TLS?
<hhalpin> ah, that clears things up a bit from the outside.
<danbri> (interesting, i was wondering whether foaf:jabberID needed updating)
xmpp has always used ssl for encryption
<hhalpin> starTLS to upgrade a port to encryption - but that's per-hop not end-to-end (i.e. OTR?)
since 2004, there has been a start_tls command, which is a per hop encrypted
<bblfish> very cool: start with TLS and upgrade to encrypted when you want encryption. Should use this for foaf+ssl :-)
it is possible that there is clear-text on the server
<tinkster> bblfish, HTTP/HTTPS doesn't allow upgrades to encrypted connections on the same port.
as the moment there is no end-to-end encryption
<hhalpin> what's the issues with OTR?
they have looked at pptp
and have looked smime
<hhalpin> so just go end-to-end TLS
but people dont have certs, so they have looked a tls, and how it can be reworked to do end-end encryption
<hhalpin> OTR is a bit of a hack with weird signalling...can only encrypt plain text message.
in OTR you can only encrypt the plain text messages
<hhalpin> Doesn't encrypt the rest of the XML
<bblfish> tinkster: I thought that is what peter said
<hhalpin> ah, that makes a lot of sense
for example you can only encrypt the message body, e.g. "Hello World"
not the whole XML message
OTR does not give end-to-end security
there are issues with certs
<hhalpin> encrypted group chat end-to-end?
<hhalpin> very hard problem.
for doing end-to-end group is a hard problem
<hhalpin> the default w3c chat is not encrypted
<hhalpin> so it's still in the scope but in the future
<hhalpin> room itself with certifcate?
<tinkster> GPG allows messages to be encrypted to multiple users.
first to work on end-to-end encryption, and then there will be work on the group chat encryption
question petef. Google Waves server - server federation is xmpp, will anymore of it be based on xmpp
<tinkster> multiuser_encypted_message = concat( encrypt(plaintext_message, random_key), encrypt(random_key, recip1_key), encrypt(random_key, recip2_key), encrypt(random_key, recip3_key), ...)
<petef> "special google magic" :-)
discussion to have xmpp version of the client - server xmpp is not high on google's todo list
the wave server is no based on xmpp
not for client-server
but they use it for server - server comms
xmpp does federation well very, xmpp does it server-server encrypted comms well
quite a few xmpp mobile clients
nokia are doing work on xmpp (hajons are there any links?)
there are questions to how effecient xmpp is, due to long lived tcp connection
90% of traffic in an IM environment
there are ways to manage presence information in xmpp, so that you dont have to receive presence data continuously
there is work underway todo diff's on the information sent across to to clients
http://ovi.com (nokia system for mobile stuff)
<rreck> gtg, thanks peter.
google talk for andriod apparently doesn't use xmpp
so there was a google talk service which was a developer back channel on andriod, which is built ontop of google talk, which is xmpp.
remote scripting opens up security holes
<hhalpin> basically, Google Android doesn't actually do XMPP despite the fact that's its heavily requested
henry is asking about client side authenication based on certs (foaf+ssl)
xmpp is uses SASL external (dont know what the tech is), which enables xmpp to use client based certs
<hhalpin> x509 certificates is the key issue as most people don't have them - although everyone does have a social networking page :)
this is used by the army, because they all have certs, allowing for X.509 certs
thanks tinkster :)
<pchampin> sounds like a pretty good idea!
the aim is to have your client create a cert, which it could be used to do end-to-end encryption
<pchampin> (rather than having pidgin storing all our passwords cleartext...)
pchampin: pidgin is very naughty like that
in foaf+ssl, your cert is assigned to a URI, which is resolvable
foaf+ssl allows for a decentralised social network
with danbri's jqbus now
<danbri> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0154.html has vcard, foaf etc stuff
harry question : what could do the W3C do in this community to help take the xmpp work forward ?
<hhalpin> the answer can be done over e-mail :)
<hhalpin> I would assume membership is a huge barrier
<pchampin> have to go now; thanks a lot to Peter
<caribou> coordination is better at group level
peter said that there is potential for collaboration between xmpp and the SWXG
<danbri> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/charter ("The chairs will strive to make sure that W3C membership is not a problem for independent, student and low-wage members, while noting that employees of larger companies are typically expected by W3C to encourage their employer to join W3C.")
oauth to become a standard soon
<hhalpin> via IETF and cultural question
<Zakim> danbri, you wanted to ask about vcard and to
<hhalpin> probably the w3c's best role is to verify things that come out of running code and communities.
sorry, i keep being called by people at work
<hhalpin> basically, people in social web realm have a big cultural difference
<hhalpin> w3c needs to get closer to running code
<hhalpin> danbri: protocols with security are the way to go
<hhalpin> danbri: for standards body
<hhalpin> danbri: but schemas should be informal
<hhalpin> can we build hackfests into our program
<danbri> i mean, if you're doing a protocol, it needs more review and formality than making a descriptive schema
<danbri> +1 re hackfests
schemas may best be built informally, like at a hack fest, where at protocols tend to need more effort, and as a result might need a working group
<hhalpin> how can we get this energy channelled
<hhalpin> back to running code
<hhalpin> thanks alot!
pete thinks this is exciting, and he will get people from his group to try and get involved with the SWXG
<danbri> thanks stpeter!
hhalpin: i will do it
<hhalpin> ACTION: mischa to write up Peter's talk on XMPP [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html#action10]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-95 - Write up Peter's talk on XMPP [on Mischa Tuffield - due 2009-10-07].
<hhalpin> Meeting adjourned
<danbri> re future meetings, i circulated http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/WidgetsDiscussion and got positive feedback from David Recordon and Joseph Smarr
<hhalpin> rrsrrsagent, create minutes
<hhalpin> trackbot, end meeting