W3C

- DRAFT -

RIF Telecon 15-Sep-09

15 Sep 2009

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Sandro, AxelPolleres, ChrisW, Leora_Morgenstern, Stella_Mitchell, josb, csma, Harold, +1.503.533.aaaa, DaveReynolds, ghallmar, Mike_Dean
Regrets
AdrianPaschke, MichaelKifer
Chair
Chris Welty
Scribe
StellaMitchell

Contents


 

yes

<ChrisW> Scribe: StellaMitchell

<ChrisW> MInutes for June 23: http://www.w3.org/2009/06/23-rif-minutes.html

<ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept June 23 meeting minutes

<josb> Hey, that was my birthday!

<josb> Nope

<ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept June 23 meeting minutes

<ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2009/08/25-rif-minutes.html

<ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept Aug 25 meeting minutes

<ChrisW> ACTION: leora update Sept 1 minutes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-910 - Update Sept 1 minutes [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2009-09-22].

Admin

Liason

cw: Sandro, update on OWL?

sandro: rif and owl 2 both use xsd 1.1, xsd 1.1 looks like won't get out of CR until Jan next year
... this is a problem and we might have found an acceptable compromise:

owl will refer normatively to xsd 1.0 as ammeded by 1.1, and until such time as 1.1 become a recommendation any features of owl that depend on it are optional

cw: will those items be called out explictly?

sandro: no

cw: is it ok for rif to go to pr if xsd 1.1 is in pr?

sandro: yes
... above plan wrt to owl should work for rif too

csma: sandro, did you say we are not likely to go to rec before January?

sandro: yes, but it could likely be sooner also

cw: we still plan to leave the CR deadline where we originally set it -- even though the beginning was pushed back a week
... ....it's near the end of October, and so four weeks is reasonable
... if we don't get the required implementations, we'll have to extend

Action review

sandro: we use xpath heavily, so xpath people may have comments on the way we are using them

action 909 continued

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 909

<ChrisW> close action-905

<trackbot> ACTION-905 Ask Gary about status of implementation closed

action 904 continued

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 904

action-903 continued

close action-901

<trackbot> ACTION-901 Contact WL for response closed

<ChrisW> ACTION: gary to respond to laun [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-911 - Respond to laun [on Gary Hallmark - due 2009-09-22].

close action-900

<trackbot> ACTION-900 Update with text and examples by end of Aug (XML data document) closed

<ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RIF_FAQ

close action-897

<trackbot> ACTION-897 Ask jos and axel to answer 3.10 and 3.11 closed

<AxelPolleres> answer to 3.11 is fair enough :-)

sandro modified that case since Jos originally wrote it also

<ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/MalformedLists

people couldn't agree on what was entailed and what was not entailed

jos: discussing malformed list test case, per action-896

close action-896

<trackbot> ACTION-896 Ask Jos about http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/MalformedLists closed

<AxelPolleres> drop the "@@@ ..." part you mean, yes?

close action-893

<trackbot> ACTION-893 Change implementation page closed

close action-894

<trackbot> ACTION-894 Add possible/potential implemenations on the Wiki page (labeled as potential implementations) closed

cw: csma, are you planning to put an ILOG entry on the implementations page?

<ChrisW> ACTION: Chris to send email about implementation reports [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-912 - Send email about implementation reports [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-09-22].

csma: yes.

sandro: and an email should be sent whenever a new implementation is added to the page, per the instructions for submitting an implementation report

<ChrisW> ACTION: christian to send ilog implementation report [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-913 - Send ilog implementation report [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-09-22].

close action-875

<trackbot> ACTION-875 Contact Evan Wallace (then Edward Barkmeyer). closed

csma: I have a questions about Changhai's action-791
... he wrote some examples, but he is concerned about adding them about official test cases because he thinks they are different from the others

<AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Sep/0039.html on action-733

cw: he can upload them and we'll review them

CR Status update

cw: slight snafu, forgot to send email to the chairs mailing list

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Sep/0040.html

cw: we asked if they could review/respond to these within the week

csma: there was a new public comment, what shall we do about it?

<AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2009Sep/0003.html

axel: that comment is about an ambiguity in our grammar because we allow unicode strings in some places where I think we shouldn't

<AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Aug/0003.html

<AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rPN_PREFIX

<AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rPN_LOCAL

axel: I think for variables, prefixes, etc, we should have more constrained productions (as in sparql)
... in the PS

cw: should we fix this?

axel: yes, I think we need to

<AxelPolleres> Name ::= UNICODESTRING

<AxelPolleres> Var ::= '?' UNICODESTRING

axel: he is particularly complaining about the above 2 productions
... I think we should make them more constrained

cw: who should make this change?

<AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/DTB#Shortcuts_for_Constants_in_RIF.27s_Presentation_Syntax

<AxelPolleres> # LocalName, cf. http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/REC-xml-names11-20060816/#NT-LocalPart

axel: is it acceptable in our spec to just point to productions in other specs?
... (as DTB currently does)

harold: I think Axel's approach is good

sandro: since this only affects the PS, names will still be unrestricted in XML, right?

<ChrisW> ACTION: axel to replace name, var, and dialect by ncname in all BNF grammars [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-914 - Replace name, var, and dialect by ncname in all BNF grammars [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-09-22].

csma: I responded to Dave's and Gary's reviews, and I think there is a fair amount of work left to implement their comments
... so I don't think we can publish in this round
... when would be the next opportunity to publish the RIF XML-DATA document?

cw: any Tues or Thurs we can publish. When do you think you could have it ready?

csma: I could update it by next week, but would Dave and Gary be able to rereview it then?
... if I have it ready next week, and Gary and Dave review in a week, we could publish in 2 weeks

gary: yes, I can review it

dave: yes

<AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Aug/0002.html

<AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Aug/0013.html

<ChrisW> ACTION: christian to update xml data document by 1 week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-915 - Update xml data document by 1 week [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-09-22].

<AxelPolleres> open issues...

<ChrisW> ACTION: gary to review changes to xml document by 2 weeks [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-916 - Review changes to xml document by 2 weeks [on Gary Hallmark - due 2009-09-22].

<ChrisW> ACTION: dave to review changes to xml document by 2 weeks [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-917 - Review changes to xml document by 2 weeks [on Dave Reynolds - due 2009-09-22].

<ChrisW> ACTION: axel to respond to damasio after change to syntax [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action09]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-918 - Respond to damasio after change to syntax [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-09-22].

<AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Aug/0002.html

axel: I just realized that there is a problem in DTB about prefix directives that mk pointed out that I have not done yet

<AxelPolleres> Axel to put IRIs within <...> in the Prefix directive

<AxelPolleres> ACTION: Axel to put IRIs within <...> in the Prefix directive in DTB [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action10]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-919 - Put IRIs within <...> in the Prefix directive in DTB [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-09-22].

<AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Aug/0013.html

Axel: and another item that might need discussion: see email above

<AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/index.php?title=DTB&diff=10665&oldid=10495

Axel: above diff shows my proposed change

cw: how to we handle variable arity predicates in DTB?
... concat, for example

axel: xpath version of concat uses a sequence but xpath version of string-join does not
... I don't have a strong opinion on what fix we should adopt; I chose the simplest one

cw: mk expressed an opinion about this but he isn't here
... axel, could you respond to mk's email saying we discussed it in the telecon and describing the approach you took

RIF/XML

axel: sandro, would you review the list functions if I rework them to make them uniform with other functions in dtb
... I'm talking about writing the semantics in terms of mappings

<ChrisW> ACTION: axel to look at informal list mappings [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action11]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-920 - Look at informal list mappings [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-09-22].

OWL2RL

<AxelPolleres> for the records: my review is not yet complete

cw: dave, do you know of other reviewers for this document?

dave: jos, maybe

<ChrisW> ACTION: josb to review the OWL2RL by 1 week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action12]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-921 - Review the OWL2RL by 1 week [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2009-09-22].

RIFIntro

cw: any other discussion on OWL-RL?
... we need two reviewers for this if we're going to publish it
... mike, could you review this?

miked: yes

<Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Guide

<ChrisW> ACTION: chris to link RIF intro from home page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action13]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-922 - Link RIF intro from home page [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-09-22].

<ChrisW> ACTION: Chris to review RIF Guide [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action14]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-923 - Review RIF Guide [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-09-22].

Test Cases

<Harold> Sandro, http://www.w3.org/TR/ seems to be a huge area of W3C documents.

<Harold> ... including Recently Published Working Drafts

<sandro> level of indirection: http://www.w3.org/2009/owl-test-cases

<sandro> owl 1 test cases: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-test/

<Harold> (and Recently Published Group Notes).

<sandro> owl 2 test document: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-conformance/

cw: need two reviewers for test cases

<ChrisW> ACTION: mdean to review test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action15]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-924 - Review test cases [on Mike Dean - due 2009-09-22].

mdean: can review test doc

<ChrisW> ACTION: leora to review RIF Guide [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action16]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-925 - Review RIF Guide [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2009-09-22].

leora: I can review the RIF intro, so Mike D doesn't have to review both

<ChrisW> ACTION: sandro to review test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action17]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-926 - Review test cases [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-09-22].

AOB

UCR

cw: next telecon in 2 weeks

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: axel to look at informal list mappings [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action11]
[NEW] ACTION: Axel to put IRIs within <...> in the Prefix directive in DTB [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action10]
[NEW] ACTION: axel to replace name, var, and dialect by ncname in all BNF grammars [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: axel to respond to damasio after change to syntax [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action09]
[NEW] ACTION: chris to link RIF intro from home page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action13]
[NEW] ACTION: Chris to review RIF Guide [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action14]
[NEW] ACTION: Chris to send email about implementation reports [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: christian to send ilog implementation report [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: christian to update xml data document by 1 week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: dave to review changes to xml document by 2 weeks [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: gary to respond to laun [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: gary to review changes to xml document by 2 weeks [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: josb to review the OWL2RL by 1 week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action12]
[NEW] ACTION: leora to review RIF Guide [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action16]
[NEW] ACTION: leora update Sept 1 minutes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: mdean to review test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action15]
[NEW] ACTION: sandro to review test cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html#action17]
 
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.135 (CVS log)
$Date: 2009/09/15 16:29:26 $

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135  of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/to/too/
Found Scribe: StellaMitchell
Inferring ScribeNick: StellaMitchell
Default Present: Sandro, AxelPolleres, ChrisW, Leora_Morgenstern, Stella_Mitchell, josb, csma, Harold, +1.503.533.aaaa, DaveReynolds, ghallmar, Mike_Dean
Present: Sandro AxelPolleres ChrisW Leora_Morgenstern Stella_Mitchell josb csma Harold +1.503.533.aaaa DaveReynolds ghallmar Mike_Dean
Regrets: AdrianPaschke MichaelKifer
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Sep/0035.html
Got date from IRC log name: 15 Sep 2009
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html
People with action items: axel chris christian dave gary josb leora mdean sandro

[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]