IRC log of rif on 2009-09-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:51:16 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:51:16 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-irc
14:51:20 [ChrisW]: zakim, this will be rif
14:51:20 [Zakim]: ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
14:51:25 [ChrisW]: Chair: Chris Welty
14:51:36 [ChrisW]: Meeting: RIF Telecon 15-Sep-09
14:52:36 [ChrisW]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Sep/0035.html
14:53:19 [ChrisW]: ChrisW has changed the topic to: 15 Sept RIF Telecon agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Sep/0035.html
14:53:39 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, make minutes
14:53:39 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:53:48 [ChrisW]: agenda+ Admin
14:53:54 [ChrisW]: agenda+ Liason
14:53:59 [ChrisW]: agenda+ Action review
14:54:05 [ChrisW]: agenda+ CR Status update
14:54:14 [ChrisW]: agenda+ RIF/XML
14:54:23 [ChrisW]: agenda+ OWL2RL
14:54:37 [ChrisW]: agenda+ RIFIntro
14:54:44 [ChrisW]: agenda+ Test Cases
14:54:49 [ChrisW]: agenda+ AOB
14:56:53 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, make logs public
15:00:06 [Zakim]: SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:00:07 [josb]: josb has joined #rif
15:00:14 [Zakim]: +Sandro
15:01:01 [Zakim]: +AxelPolleres
15:01:13 [csma]: csma has joined #rif
15:01:15 [Zakim]: +[IBM]
15:01:22 [ChrisW]: zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:01:22 [Zakim]: +ChrisW; got it
15:01:55 [StellaMitchell]: StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:03:04 [Zakim]: +giorgi
15:03:36 [Zakim]: +Leora_Morgenstern
15:03:41 [Zakim]: +Stella_Mitchell
15:03:45 [DaveReynolds]: DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:04:01 [Harold]: Harold has joined #rif
15:04:07 [ChrisW]: zakim, giorgi is josb
15:04:07 [Zakim]: +josb; got it
15:04:27 [Zakim]: +Christian
15:05:21 [csma]: zakim, christian is me
15:05:21 [Zakim]: +csma; got it
15:05:40 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:40 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Sandro, AxelPolleres, ChrisW, josb, Leora_Morgenstern, Stella_Mitchell, csma
15:05:51 [StellaMitchell]: yes
15:05:53 [ChrisW]: Scribe: StellaMitchell
15:05:57 [Zakim]: +[NRCC]
15:06:16 [Harold]: zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:06:16 [Zakim]: +Harold; got it
15:06:36 [ChrisW]: MInutes for June 23: http://www.w3.org/2009/06/23-rif-minutes.html
15:06:44 [ChrisW]: PROPOSED: accept June 23 meeting minutes
15:06:49 [josb]: Hey, that was my birthday!
15:06:56 [josb]: Nope
15:07:01 [ChrisW]: RESOLVED: accept June 23 meeting minutes
15:07:23 [ChrisW]: http://www.w3.org/2009/08/25-rif-minutes.html
15:07:40 [ChrisW]: RESOLVED: accept Aug 25 meeting minutes
15:08:45 [ChrisW]: action: leora update Sept 1 minutes
15:08:45 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-910 - Update Sept 1 minutes [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2009-09-22].
15:09:05 [ChrisW]: zakim, list agenda
15:09:05 [Zakim]: I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:
15:09:06 [Zakim]: 1. Admin [from ChrisW]
15:09:06 [Zakim]: 2. Liason [from ChrisW]
15:09:07 [Zakim]: 3. Action review [from ChrisW]
15:09:09 [Zakim]: 4. CR Status update [from ChrisW]
15:09:09 [Zakim]: 5. RIF/XML [from ChrisW]
15:09:10 [Zakim]: 6. OWL2RL [from ChrisW]
15:09:10 [Zakim]: 7. RIFIntro [from ChrisW]
15:09:12 [Zakim]: 8. Test Cases [from ChrisW]
15:09:14 [Zakim]: 9. AOB [from ChrisW]
15:09:16 [ChrisW]: agenda+ UCR
15:09:28 [ChrisW]: zakim, next item
15:09:28 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:09:32 [Zakim]: + +1.503.533.aaaa
15:09:37 [ChrisW]: zakim, close item 1
15:09:37 [Zakim]: agendum 1, Admin, closed
15:09:38 [Zakim]: I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:09:39 [Zakim]: 2. Liason [from ChrisW]
15:09:42 [ChrisW]: zakim, next item
15:09:42 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:09:54 [StellaMitchell]: cw: Sandro, update on OWL?
15:10:10 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:10:21 [csma]: zakim, mute me
15:10:21 [Zakim]: csma should now be muted
15:10:25 [ghallmar]: ghallmar has joined #rif
15:10:39 [StellaMitchell]: sandro: rif and owl 2 both use xsd 1.1, xsd 1.1 looks like won't get out of CR until Jan next year
15:10:44 [ChrisW]: zakim, aaaa is ghallmar
15:10:44 [Zakim]: +ghallmar; got it
15:11:03 [StellaMitchell]: ...this is a problem and we might have found an acceptable compromise:
15:12:54 [StellaMitchell]: owl will refer normatively to xsd 1.0 as ammeded by 1.1, and until such time as 1.1 become a recommendation any features of owl that depend on it are optional
15:13:08 [StellaMitchell]: cw: will those items be called out explictly?
15:13:12 [StellaMitchell]: sandro: no
15:13:48 [StellaMitchell]: cw: is it ok for rif to go to pr if xsd 1.1 is in pr?
15:13:53 [StellaMitchell]: sandro: yes
15:14:15 [StellaMitchell]: ....above plan wrt to owl should work for rif to
15:14:19 [StellaMitchell]: s/to/too/
15:14:31 [csma]: q+
15:14:57 [ChrisW]: ack csma
15:14:58 [csma]: ack csma
15:15:18 [StellaMitchell]: csma: sandro, did you say we are not likely to go to rec before January?
15:15:32 [StellaMitchell]: sandro: yes, but it could likely be sooner also
15:16:59 [StellaMitchell]: cw: we still plan to leave the CR deadline where we originally set it -- even though the beginning was pushed back a week
15:17:45 [StellaMitchell]: cw: ....it's near the end of October, and so four weeks is reasonable
15:18:02 [StellaMitchell]: ...if we don't get the required implementations, we'll have to extend
15:18:58 [Leora]: Leora has joined #rif
15:19:00 [ChrisW]: zakim, next item
15:19:00 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "Action review" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:19:14 [StellaMitchell]: sandro: we use xpath heavily, so xpath people may have comments on the way we are using them
15:19:41 [StellaMitchell]: action 909 continued
15:19:41 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - 909
15:20:08 [ChrisW]: close action-905
15:20:08 [trackbot]: ACTION-905 Ask Gary about status of implementation closed
15:20:26 [StellaMitchell]: action 904 continued
15:20:26 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - 904
15:20:49 [StellaMitchell]: action-903 continued
15:21:16 [StellaMitchell]: close action-901
15:21:16 [trackbot]: ACTION-901 Contact WL for response closed
15:21:54 [ChrisW]: action: gary to respond to laun
15:21:54 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-911 - Respond to laun [on Gary Hallmark - due 2009-09-22].
15:22:21 [StellaMitchell]: close action-900
15:22:21 [trackbot]: ACTION-900 Update with text and examples by end of Aug (XML data document) closed
15:23:06 [ChrisW]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RIF_FAQ
15:23:38 [StellaMitchell]: close action-897
15:23:38 [trackbot]: ACTION-897 Ask jos and axel to answer 3.10 and 3.11 closed
15:24:16 [AxelPolleres]: answer to 3.11 is fair enough :-)
15:25:05 [StellaMitchell]: sandro modified that case since Jos originally wrote it also
15:26:00 [ChrisW]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/MalformedLists
15:26:18 [StellaMitchell]: people couldn't agree on what was entailed and what was not entailed
15:27:20 [StellaMitchell]: jos: discussing malformed list test case, per action-896
15:28:54 [StellaMitchell]: close action-896
15:28:54 [trackbot]: ACTION-896 Ask Jos about http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/MalformedLists closed
15:29:09 [AxelPolleres]: drop the "@@@ ..." part you mean, yes?
15:29:50 [AxelPolleres]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:29:50 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Sandro, AxelPolleres, ChrisW, josb, Leora_Morgenstern, Stella_Mitchell, csma, Harold, ghallmar, DaveReynolds (muted)
15:30:39 [StellaMitchell]: close action-893
15:30:39 [trackbot]: ACTION-893 Change implementation page closed
15:30:43 [StellaMitchell]: close action-894
15:30:43 [trackbot]: ACTION-894 Add possible/potential implemenations on the Wiki page (labeled as potential implementations) closed
15:31:00 [StellaMitchell]: cw: csma, are you planning to put an ILOG entry on the implementations page?
15:31:04 [ChrisW]: action: Chris to send email about implementation reports
15:31:04 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-912 - Send email about implementation reports [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-09-22].
15:31:13 [StellaMitchell]: csma: yes.
15:32:16 [StellaMitchell]: sandro: and an email should be sent whenever a new implementation is added to the page, per the instructions for submitting an implementation report
15:32:27 [ChrisW]: action: christian to send ilog implementation report
15:32:27 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-913 - Send ilog implementation report [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-09-22].
15:33:13 [StellaMitchell]: close action-875
15:33:13 [trackbot]: ACTION-875 Contact Evan Wallace (then Edward Barkmeyer). closed
15:35:19 [StellaMitchell]: csma: I have a questions about Changhai's action-791
15:35:58 [StellaMitchell]: ...he wrote some examples, but he is concerned about adding them about official test cases because he thinks they are different from the others
15:36:08 [AxelPolleres]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Sep/0039.html on action-733
15:36:08 [StellaMitchell]: cw: he can upload them and we'll review them
15:38:34 [ChrisW]: q?
15:38:38 [ChrisW]: zakim, next item
15:38:38 [Zakim]: agendum 4. "CR Status update" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:39:35 [StellaMitchell]: cw: slight snafu, forgot to send email to the chairs mailing list
15:40:25 [StellaMitchell]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Sep/0040.html
15:41:04 [StellaMitchell]: cw: we asked if they could review/respond to these within the week
15:41:30 [AxelPolleres]: q+
15:41:36 [StellaMitchell]: csma: there was a new public comment, what shall we do about it?
15:42:00 [AxelPolleres]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2009Sep/0003.html
15:42:32 [StellaMitchell]: axel: that comment is about an ambiguity in our grammar because we allow unicode strings in some places where I think we shouldn't
15:42:33 [AxelPolleres]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Aug/0003.html
15:43:34 [AxelPolleres]: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rPN_PREFIX
15:43:35 [AxelPolleres]: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rPN_LOCAL
15:43:47 [StellaMitchell]: ... I think for variables, prefixes, etc, we should have more constrained productions (as in sparql)
15:43:52 [StellaMitchell]: ...in the PS
15:43:59 [StellaMitchell]: cw: should we fix this?
15:44:07 [StellaMitchell]: axel: yes, I think we need to
15:44:10 [Zakim]: -josb
15:44:39 [Zakim]: +josb
15:45:58 [AxelPolleres]: Name ::= UNICODESTRING
15:45:58 [AxelPolleres]: Var ::= '?' UNICODESTRING
15:46:06 [StellaMitchell]: axel: he is particularly complaining about the above 2 productions
15:46:29 [StellaMitchell]: .... I think we should make them more constrained
15:46:46 [StellaMitchell]: cw: who should make this change?
15:47:40 [AxelPolleres]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/DTB#Shortcuts_for_Constants_in_RIF.27s_Presentation_Syntax
15:48:20 [AxelPolleres]: # LocalName, cf. http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/REC-xml-names11-20060816/#NT-LocalPart
15:49:03 [StellaMitchell]: axel: is it acceptable in our spec to just point to productions in other specs?
15:49:10 [StellaMitchell]: ....(as DTB currently does)
15:50:11 [StellaMitchell]: harold: I think Axel's approach is good
15:52:22 [StellaMitchell]: sandro: since this only affects the PS, names will still be unrestricted in XML, right?
15:52:39 [ChrisW]: action: axel to replace name, var, and dialect by ncname in all BNF grammars
15:52:39 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-914 - Replace name, var, and dialect by ncname in all BNF grammars [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-09-22].
15:54:44 [StellaMitchell]: csma: I responded to Dave's and Gary's reviews, and I think there is a fair amount of work left to implement their comments
15:55:05 [StellaMitchell]: ...so I don't think we can publish in this round
15:55:42 [StellaMitchell]: ...when would be the next opportunity to publish the RIF XML-DATA document?
15:56:10 [StellaMitchell]: cw: any Tues or Thurs we can publish. When do you think you could have it ready?
15:56:34 [StellaMitchell]: csma: I could update it by next week, but would Dave and Gary be able to rereview it then?
15:57:20 [StellaMitchell]: ...if I have it ready next week, and Gary and Dave review in a week, we could publish in 2 weeks
15:57:46 [StellaMitchell]: gary: yes, I can review it
15:57:49 [StellaMitchell]: dave: yes
15:58:05 [Zakim]: -csma
15:58:17 [AxelPolleres]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Aug/0002.html
15:58:17 [AxelPolleres]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Aug/0013.html
15:58:19 [ChrisW]: action: christian to update xml data document by 1 week
15:58:19 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-915 - Update xml data document by 1 week [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-09-22].
15:58:20 [AxelPolleres]: open issues...
15:58:33 [ChrisW]: action: gary to review changes to xml document by 2 weeks
15:58:33 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-916 - Review changes to xml document by 2 weeks [on Gary Hallmark - due 2009-09-22].
15:58:38 [ChrisW]: action: dave to review changes to xml document by 2 weeks
15:58:38 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-917 - Review changes to xml document by 2 weeks [on Dave Reynolds - due 2009-09-22].
15:59:34 [mdean]: mdean has joined #rif
15:59:45 [ChrisW]: action: axel to respond to damasio after change to syntax
15:59:45 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-918 - Respond to damasio after change to syntax [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-09-22].
15:59:56 [AxelPolleres]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Aug/0002.html
16:00:05 [Zakim]: +Mike_Dean
16:00:25 [StellaMitchell]: axel: I just realized that there is a problem in DTB about prefix directives that mk pointed out that I have not done yet
16:00:45 [AxelPolleres]: Axel to put IRIs within <...> in the Prefix directive
16:01:02 [AxelPolleres]: ACTION: Axel to put IRIs within <...> in the Prefix directive in DTB
16:01:03 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-919 - Put IRIs within <...> in the Prefix directive in DTB [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-09-22].
16:01:18 [AxelPolleres]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Aug/0013.html
16:01:29 [StellaMitchell]: Axel: and another item that might need discussion: see email above
16:03:08 [AxelPolleres]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/index.php?title=DTB&diff=10665&oldid=10495
16:04:16 [StellaMitchell]: Axel: above diff shows my proposed change
16:04:40 [StellaMitchell]: cw: how to we handle variable arity predicates in DTB?
16:05:04 [StellaMitchell]: ...concat, for example
16:05:35 [StellaMitchell]: axel: xpath version of concat uses a sequence but xpath version of string-join does not
16:06:39 [StellaMitchell]: axel: I don't have a strong opinion on what fix we should adopt; I chose the simplest one
16:07:25 [StellaMitchell]: cw: mk expressed an opinion about this but he isn't here
16:09:01 [StellaMitchell]: cw: axel, could you respond to mk's email saying we discussed it in the telecon and describing the approach you took
16:09:48 [ChrisW]: q?
16:09:53 [ChrisW]: ack axel
16:09:56 [ChrisW]: zakim, next item
16:09:56 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "RIF/XML" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:10:56 [StellaMitchell]: axel: sandro, would you review the list functions if I rework them to make them uniform with other functions in dtb
16:12:08 [StellaMitchell]: ...I'm talking about writing the semantics in terms of mappings
16:12:08 [ChrisW]: action: axel to look at informal list mappings
16:12:08 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-920 - Look at informal list mappings [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-09-22].
16:12:14 [ChrisW]: zakim, next item
16:12:14 [Zakim]: agendum 6. "OWL2RL" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:12:44 [AxelPolleres]: for the records: my review is not yet complete
16:13:07 [StellaMitchell]: cw: dave, do you know of other reviewers for this document?
16:13:12 [StellaMitchell]: dave: jos, maybe
16:13:36 [ChrisW]: action: josb to review the OWL2RL by 1 week
16:13:36 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-921 - Review the OWL2RL by 1 week [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2009-09-22].
16:15:01 [ChrisW]: zakim, next item
16:15:01 [Zakim]: agendum 7. "RIFIntro" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:15:01 [StellaMitchell]: cw: any other discussion on OWL-RL?
16:15:40 [StellaMitchell]: cw: we need two reviewers for this if we're going to publish it
16:15:50 [StellaMitchell]: cw: mike, could you review this?
16:15:54 [StellaMitchell]: miked: yes
16:16:13 [Harold]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Guide
16:16:15 [ChrisW]: action: chris to link RIF intro from home page
16:16:15 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-922 - Link RIF intro from home page [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-09-22].
16:16:39 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is on the phone?
16:16:39 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Sandro, AxelPolleres, ChrisW, Leora_Morgenstern, Stella_Mitchell, Harold, ghallmar, DaveReynolds, josb, Mike_Dean
16:16:49 [ChrisW]: action: Chris to review RIF Guide
16:16:49 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-923 - Review RIF Guide [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-09-22].
16:17:02 [ChrisW]: zakim, next item
16:17:02 [Zakim]: agendum 8. "Test Cases" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:21:09 [Harold]: Sandro, http://www.w3.org/TR/ seems to be a huge area of W3C documents.
16:21:26 [Harold]: ... including Recently Published Working Drafts
16:23:27 [sandro]: level of indirection: http://www.w3.org/2009/owl-test-cases
16:23:45 [sandro]: owl 1 test cases: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-test/
16:23:50 [Harold]: (and Recently Published Group Notes).
16:24:04 [sandro]: owl 2 test document: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-conformance/
16:24:49 [StellaMitchell]: cw: need two reviewers for test cases
16:25:14 [ChrisW]: action: mdean to review test cases
16:25:15 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-924 - Review test cases [on Mike Dean - due 2009-09-22].
16:25:22 [StellaMitchell]: mdean: can review test doc
16:25:54 [ChrisW]: action: leora to review RIF Guide
16:25:54 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-925 - Review RIF Guide [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2009-09-22].
16:25:55 [StellaMitchell]: leora: I can review the RIF intro, so Mike D doesn't have to review both
16:26:26 [ChrisW]: action: sandro to review test cases
16:26:26 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-926 - Review test cases [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-09-22].
16:26:35 [ChrisW]: zakim, next item
16:26:35 [Zakim]: agendum 9. "AOB" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:26:43 [ChrisW]: zakim, next item
16:26:43 [Zakim]: agendum 9 was just opened, ChrisW
16:26:50 [ChrisW]: zakim, take up item 10
16:26:50 [Zakim]: agendum 10. "UCR" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:28:53 [StellaMitchell]: cw: next telecon in 2 weeks
16:28:55 [Zakim]: -Harold
16:28:56 [Zakim]: -AxelPolleres
16:28:56 [Zakim]: -josb
16:28:58 [Zakim]: -ghallmar
16:28:59 [ChrisW]: zakim, list attendees
16:28:59 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been Sandro, AxelPolleres, ChrisW, Leora_Morgenstern, Stella_Mitchell, josb, csma, Harold, +1.503.533.aaaa, DaveReynolds, ghallmar, Mike_Dean
16:29:03 [Zakim]: -Leora_Morgenstern
16:29:03 [Zakim]: -Mike_Dean
16:29:09 [Zakim]: -DaveReynolds
16:29:15 [ChrisW]: Regrets: AdrianPaschke MichaelKifer
16:29:20 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:29:20 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:29:43 [Zakim]: -Stella_Mitchell
16:30:47 [Zakim]: -ChrisW
16:30:48 [Zakim]: -Sandro
16:30:48 [Zakim]: SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:30:49 [Zakim]: Attendees were Sandro, AxelPolleres, ChrisW, Leora_Morgenstern, Stella_Mitchell, josb, csma, Harold, +1.503.533.aaaa, DaveReynolds, ghallmar, Mike_Dean
16:31:05 [ChrisW]: sandro?
16:46:54 [AxelPolleres]: AxelPolleres has left #rif