14:51:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:51:16 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-irc
14:51:20 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
14:51:20 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
14:51:25 <ChrisW> Chair: Chris Welty
14:51:36 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 15-Sep-09
14:52:36 <ChrisW> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Sep/0035.html
14:53:19 <ChrisW> ChrisW has changed the topic to: 15 Sept RIF Telecon agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Sep/0035.html
14:53:39 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
14:53:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:53:48 <ChrisW> agenda+ Admin
14:53:54 <ChrisW> agenda+ Liason
14:53:59 <ChrisW> agenda+ Action review
14:54:05 <ChrisW> agenda+ CR Status update
14:54:14 <ChrisW> agenda+ RIF/XML
14:54:23 <ChrisW> agenda+ OWL2RL
14:54:37 <ChrisW> agenda+ RIFIntro
14:54:44 <ChrisW> agenda+ Test Cases
14:54:49 <ChrisW> agenda+ AOB
14:56:53 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
15:00:06 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:00:07 <josb> josb has joined #rif
15:00:14 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:01:01 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres
15:01:13 <csma> csma has joined #rif
15:01:15 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:01:22 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:01:22 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
15:01:55 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:03:04 <Zakim> +giorgi
15:03:36 <Zakim> +Leora_Morgenstern
15:03:41 <Zakim> +Stella_Mitchell
15:03:45 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:04:01 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
15:04:07 <ChrisW> zakim, giorgi is josb
15:04:07 <Zakim> +josb; got it
15:04:27 <Zakim> +Christian
15:05:21 <csma> zakim, christian is me
15:05:21 <Zakim> +csma; got it
15:05:40 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, AxelPolleres, ChrisW, josb, Leora_Morgenstern, Stella_Mitchell, csma
15:05:51 <StellaMitchell> yes
15:05:53 <ChrisW> Scribe: StellaMitchell
15:05:57 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:06:16 <Harold>  zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:06:16 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:06:36 <ChrisW> MInutes for June 23: http://www.w3.org/2009/06/23-rif-minutes.html
15:06:44 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept June 23 meeting minutes
15:06:49 <josb> Hey, that was my birthday!
15:06:56 <josb> Nope
15:07:01 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept June 23 meeting minutes
15:07:23 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2009/08/25-rif-minutes.html
15:07:40 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept Aug 25 meeting minutes
15:08:45 <ChrisW> action: leora update Sept 1 minutes
15:08:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-910 - Update Sept 1 minutes [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2009-09-22].
15:09:05 <ChrisW> zakim, list agenda
15:09:05 <Zakim> I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:
15:09:06 <Zakim> 1. Admin [from ChrisW]
15:09:06 <Zakim> 2. Liason [from ChrisW]
15:09:07 <Zakim> 3. Action review [from ChrisW]
15:09:09 <Zakim> 4. CR Status update [from ChrisW]
15:09:09 <Zakim> 5. RIF/XML [from ChrisW]
15:09:10 <Zakim> 6. OWL2RL [from ChrisW]
15:09:10 <Zakim> 7. RIFIntro [from ChrisW]
15:09:12 <Zakim> 8. Test Cases [from ChrisW]
15:09:14 <Zakim> 9. AOB [from ChrisW]
15:09:16 <ChrisW> agenda+ UCR
15:09:28 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:09:28 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:09:32 <Zakim> + +1.503.533.aaaa
15:09:37 <ChrisW> zakim, close item 1
15:09:37 <Zakim> agendum 1, Admin, closed
15:09:38 <Zakim> I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:09:39 <Zakim> 2. Liason [from ChrisW]
15:09:42 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:09:42 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:09:54 <StellaMitchell> cw: Sandro, update on OWL?
15:10:10 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:10:21 <csma> zakim, mute me
15:10:21 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
15:10:25 <ghallmar> ghallmar has joined #rif
15:10:39 <StellaMitchell> sandro:  rif and owl 2 both use xsd 1.1, xsd 1.1 looks like won't get out of CR until Jan next year
15:10:44 <ChrisW> zakim, aaaa is ghallmar
15:10:44 <Zakim> +ghallmar; got it
15:11:03 <StellaMitchell> ...this is a problem and we might have found an acceptable compromise:
15:12:54 <StellaMitchell> owl will refer normatively to xsd 1.0 as ammeded by 1.1, and until such time as 1.1 become a recommendation any features of owl that depend on it are optional
15:13:08 <StellaMitchell> cw: will those items be called out explictly?
15:13:12 <StellaMitchell> sandro: no
15:13:48 <StellaMitchell> cw:  is it ok for rif to go to pr if xsd 1.1 is in pr?
15:13:53 <StellaMitchell> sandro: yes
15:14:15 <StellaMitchell> ....above plan wrt to owl should work for rif to
15:14:19 <StellaMitchell> s/to/too/
15:14:31 <csma> q+
15:14:57 <ChrisW> ack csma
15:14:58 <csma> ack csma
15:15:18 <StellaMitchell> csma: sandro, did you say we are not likely to go to rec before January?
15:15:32 <StellaMitchell> sandro: yes, but it could likely be sooner also
15:16:59 <StellaMitchell> cw:  we still plan to leave the CR deadline where we originally set it -- even though the beginning was pushed back a week
15:17:45 <StellaMitchell> cw:  ....it's near the end of October, and so four weeks is reasonable
15:18:02 <StellaMitchell> ...if we don't get the required implementations, we'll have to extend
15:18:58 <Leora> Leora has joined #rif
15:19:00 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:19:00 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Action review" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:19:14 <StellaMitchell> sandro:  we use xpath heavily, so xpath people may have comments on the way we are using them
15:19:41 <StellaMitchell> action 909 continued
15:19:41 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 909
15:20:08 <ChrisW> close action-905
15:20:08 <trackbot> ACTION-905 Ask Gary about status of implementation closed
15:20:26 <StellaMitchell> action 904 continued
15:20:26 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 904
15:20:49 <StellaMitchell> action-903 continued
15:21:16 <StellaMitchell> close action-901
15:21:16 <trackbot> ACTION-901 Contact WL for response closed
15:21:54 <ChrisW> action: gary to respond to laun
15:21:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-911 - Respond to laun [on Gary Hallmark - due 2009-09-22].
15:22:21 <StellaMitchell> close action-900
15:22:21 <trackbot> ACTION-900 Update with text and examples by end of Aug (XML data document) closed
15:23:06 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RIF_FAQ
15:23:38 <StellaMitchell> close action-897
15:23:38 <trackbot> ACTION-897 Ask jos and axel to answer 3.10 and 3.11 closed
15:24:16 <AxelPolleres> answer to 3.11 is fair enough :-)
15:25:05 <StellaMitchell> sandro modified that case since Jos originally wrote it also
15:26:00 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/MalformedLists
15:26:18 <StellaMitchell> people couldn't agree on what was entailed and what was not entailed
15:27:20 <StellaMitchell> jos: discussing malformed list test case, per action-896
15:28:54 <StellaMitchell> close action-896
15:28:54 <trackbot> ACTION-896 Ask Jos about http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/MalformedLists closed
15:29:09 <AxelPolleres> drop the "@@@ ..." part you mean, yes?
15:29:50 <AxelPolleres> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:29:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, AxelPolleres, ChrisW, josb, Leora_Morgenstern, Stella_Mitchell, csma, Harold, ghallmar, DaveReynolds (muted)
15:30:39 <StellaMitchell> close action-893
15:30:39 <trackbot> ACTION-893 Change implementation page closed
15:30:43 <StellaMitchell> close action-894
15:30:43 <trackbot> ACTION-894 Add possible/potential implemenations on the Wiki page (labeled as potential implementations) closed
15:31:00 <StellaMitchell> cw: csma, are you planning to put an ILOG entry on the implementations page?
15:31:04 <ChrisW> action: Chris to send email about implementation reports
15:31:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-912 - Send email about implementation reports [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-09-22].
15:31:13 <StellaMitchell> csma: yes. 
15:32:16 <StellaMitchell> sandro:  and an email should be sent whenever a new implementation is added to the page, per the instructions for submitting an implementation report
15:32:27 <ChrisW> action: christian to send ilog implementation report
15:32:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-913 - Send ilog implementation report [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-09-22].
15:33:13 <StellaMitchell> close action-875
15:33:13 <trackbot> ACTION-875 Contact Evan Wallace (then Edward Barkmeyer). closed
15:35:19 <StellaMitchell> csma: I have a questions about Changhai's action-791
15:35:58 <StellaMitchell> ...he wrote some examples, but he is concerned about adding them about official test cases because he thinks they are different from the others
15:36:08 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Sep/0039.html on action-733
15:36:08 <StellaMitchell> cw: he can upload them and we'll review them
15:38:34 <ChrisW> q?
15:38:38 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:38:38 <Zakim> agendum 4. "CR Status update" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:39:35 <StellaMitchell> cw:   slight snafu, forgot to send email to the chairs mailing list
15:40:25 <StellaMitchell> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Sep/0040.html
15:41:04 <StellaMitchell> cw: we asked if they could review/respond to these within the week
15:41:30 <AxelPolleres> q+
15:41:36 <StellaMitchell> csma: there was a new public comment, what shall we do about it?
15:42:00 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2009Sep/0003.html
15:42:32 <StellaMitchell> axel:  that comment is about an ambiguity in our grammar because we allow unicode strings in some places where I think we shouldn't
15:42:33 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Aug/0003.html
15:43:34 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rPN_PREFIX
15:43:35 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rPN_LOCAL
15:43:47 <StellaMitchell> ... I think for variables, prefixes, etc, we should have more constrained productions (as in sparql)
15:43:52 <StellaMitchell> ...in the PS
15:43:59 <StellaMitchell> cw: should we fix this?
15:44:07 <StellaMitchell> axel: yes, I think we need to
15:44:10 <Zakim> -josb
15:44:39 <Zakim> +josb
15:45:58 <AxelPolleres>   Name           ::= UNICODESTRING
15:45:58 <AxelPolleres>   Var            ::= '?' UNICODESTRING
15:46:06 <StellaMitchell> axel:  he is particularly complaining about the above 2 productions
15:46:29 <StellaMitchell> .... I think we should make them more constrained
15:46:46 <StellaMitchell> cw: who should make this change?
15:47:40 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/DTB#Shortcuts_for_Constants_in_RIF.27s_Presentation_Syntax
15:48:20 <AxelPolleres> # LocalName, cf. http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/REC-xml-names11-20060816/#NT-LocalPart
15:49:03 <StellaMitchell> axel: is it acceptable in our spec to just point to productions in other specs?
15:49:10 <StellaMitchell> ....(as DTB currently does)
15:50:11 <StellaMitchell> harold: I think Axel's approach is good
15:52:22 <StellaMitchell> sandro: since this only affects the PS, names will still be unrestricted in XML, right?
15:52:39 <ChrisW> action: axel to replace name, var, and dialect by ncname in all BNF grammars
15:52:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-914 - Replace name, var, and dialect by ncname in all BNF grammars [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-09-22].
15:54:44 <StellaMitchell> csma:  I responded to Dave's and Gary's reviews, and I think there is a fair amount of work left to implement their comments 
15:55:05 <StellaMitchell> ...so I don't think we can publish in this round 
15:55:42 <StellaMitchell> ...when would be the next opportunity to publish the RIF XML-DATA document?
15:56:10 <StellaMitchell> cw: any Tues or Thurs we can publish. When do you think you could have it ready?
15:56:34 <StellaMitchell> csma: I could update it by next week, but would Dave and Gary be able to rereview it then?
15:57:20 <StellaMitchell> ...if I have it ready next week, and Gary and Dave review in a week, we could publish in 2 weeks
15:57:46 <StellaMitchell> gary: yes, I can review it
15:57:49 <StellaMitchell> dave: yes
15:58:05 <Zakim> -csma
15:58:17 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Aug/0002.html
15:58:17 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Aug/0013.html
15:58:19 <ChrisW> action: christian to update xml data document by 1 week
15:58:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-915 - Update xml data document by 1 week [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-09-22].
15:58:20 <AxelPolleres> open issues...
15:58:33 <ChrisW> action: gary to review changes to xml document by 2 weeks
15:58:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-916 - Review changes to xml document by 2 weeks [on Gary Hallmark - due 2009-09-22].
15:58:38 <ChrisW> action: dave to review changes to xml document by 2 weeks
15:58:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-917 - Review changes to xml document by 2 weeks [on Dave Reynolds - due 2009-09-22].
15:59:34 <mdean> mdean has joined #rif
15:59:45 <ChrisW> action: axel to respond to damasio after change to syntax
15:59:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-918 - Respond to damasio after change to syntax [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-09-22].
15:59:56 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Aug/0002.html
16:00:05 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
16:00:25 <StellaMitchell> axel: I just realized that there is a problem in DTB about prefix directives that mk pointed out that I have not done yet
16:00:45 <AxelPolleres> Axel to put IRIs within <...> in the Prefix directive
16:01:02 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Axel to put IRIs within <...> in the Prefix directive in DTB
16:01:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-919 - Put IRIs within <...> in the Prefix directive in DTB [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-09-22].
16:01:18 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Aug/0013.html
16:01:29 <StellaMitchell> Axel: and another item that might need discussion: see email above
16:03:08 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/index.php?title=DTB&diff=10665&oldid=10495
16:04:16 <StellaMitchell> Axel: above diff shows my proposed change
16:04:40 <StellaMitchell> cw: how to we handle variable arity predicates in DTB?
16:05:04 <StellaMitchell> ...concat, for example
16:05:35 <StellaMitchell> axel: xpath version of concat uses a sequence but xpath version of string-join does not
16:06:39 <StellaMitchell> axel: I don't have a strong opinion on what fix we should adopt; I chose the simplest one
16:07:25 <StellaMitchell> cw: mk expressed an opinion about this but he isn't here
16:09:01 <StellaMitchell> cw: axel, could you respond to mk's email saying we discussed it in the telecon and describing the approach you took 
16:09:48 <ChrisW> q?
16:09:53 <ChrisW> ack axel
16:09:56 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:09:56 <Zakim> agendum 5. "RIF/XML" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:10:56 <StellaMitchell> axel: sandro, would you review the list functions if I rework them to make them uniform with other functions in dtb
16:12:08 <StellaMitchell> ...I'm talking about writing the semantics in terms of mappings
16:12:08 <ChrisW> action: axel to look at informal list mappings
16:12:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-920 - Look at informal list mappings [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-09-22].
16:12:14 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:12:14 <Zakim> agendum 6. "OWL2RL" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:12:44 <AxelPolleres> for the records: my review is not yet complete
16:13:07 <StellaMitchell> cw: dave, do you know of other reviewers for this document?
16:13:12 <StellaMitchell> dave: jos, maybe
16:13:36 <ChrisW> action: josb to review the OWL2RL by 1 week
16:13:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-921 - Review the OWL2RL by 1 week [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2009-09-22].
16:15:01 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:15:01 <Zakim> agendum 7. "RIFIntro" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:15:01 <StellaMitchell> cw: any other discussion on OWL-RL?
16:15:40 <StellaMitchell> cw: we need two reviewers for this if we're going to publish it
16:15:50 <StellaMitchell> cw: mike, could you review this?
16:15:54 <StellaMitchell> miked: yes
16:16:13 <Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Guide
16:16:15 <ChrisW> action: chris to link RIF intro from home page
16:16:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-922 - Link RIF intro from home page [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-09-22].
16:16:39 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:16:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, AxelPolleres, ChrisW, Leora_Morgenstern, Stella_Mitchell, Harold, ghallmar, DaveReynolds, josb, Mike_Dean
16:16:49 <ChrisW> action: Chris to review RIF Guide
16:16:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-923 - Review RIF Guide [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-09-22].
16:17:02 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:17:02 <Zakim> agendum 8. "Test Cases" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:21:09 <Harold> Sandro, http://www.w3.org/TR/ seems to be a huge area of W3C documents.
16:21:26 <Harold> ... including Recently Published Working Drafts
16:23:27 <sandro> level of indirection: http://www.w3.org/2009/owl-test-cases
16:23:45 <sandro> owl 1 test cases: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-test/
16:23:50 <Harold> (and Recently Published Group Notes).
16:24:04 <sandro> owl 2 test document: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-conformance/
16:24:49 <StellaMitchell> cw: need two reviewers for test cases
16:25:14 <ChrisW> action: mdean to review test cases
16:25:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-924 - Review test cases [on Mike Dean - due 2009-09-22].
16:25:22 <StellaMitchell> mdean: can review test doc
16:25:54 <ChrisW> action: leora to review RIF Guide
16:25:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-925 - Review RIF Guide [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2009-09-22].
16:25:55 <StellaMitchell> leora: I can review the RIF intro, so Mike D doesn't have to review both
16:26:26 <ChrisW> action: sandro to review test cases
16:26:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-926 - Review test cases [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-09-22].
16:26:35 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:26:35 <Zakim> agendum 9. "AOB" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:26:43 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:26:43 <Zakim> agendum 9 was just opened, ChrisW
16:26:50 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 10
16:26:50 <Zakim> agendum 10. "UCR" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:28:53 <StellaMitchell> cw: next telecon in 2 weeks
16:28:55 <Zakim> -Harold
16:28:56 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
16:28:56 <Zakim> -josb
16:28:58 <Zakim> -ghallmar
16:28:59 <ChrisW> zakim, list attendees
16:28:59 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Sandro, AxelPolleres, ChrisW, Leora_Morgenstern, Stella_Mitchell, josb, csma, Harold, +1.503.533.aaaa, DaveReynolds, ghallmar, Mike_Dean
16:29:03 <Zakim> -Leora_Morgenstern
16:29:03 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
16:29:09 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
16:29:15 <ChrisW> Regrets: AdrianPaschke MichaelKifer
16:29:20 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:29:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:29:43 <Zakim> -Stella_Mitchell
16:30:47 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:30:48 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:30:48 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:30:49 <Zakim> Attendees were Sandro, AxelPolleres, ChrisW, Leora_Morgenstern, Stella_Mitchell, josb, csma, Harold, +1.503.533.aaaa, DaveReynolds, ghallmar, Mike_Dean
16:31:05 <ChrisW> sandro?
16:46:54 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has left #rif