See also: IRC log
<PhilA2> E-mail about last week's minutes is at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2009Jul/0100.html
<PhilA2> Actual minutes are at http://www.w3.org/2009/07/22-swxg-minutes.html
<PhilA2> which reminds me - just checking that RRS Agent and Zakim are both here...
<hhalpin> Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-07-29T13:00-15:00Z
<rreck> i didnt see many regrets
yeh i will do it
<hhalpin> OK, #
<hhalpin> # PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 22 July 2009 as a true record
<rreck> true record +1
<hhalpin> RESOLVED: approved SWXG WG Weekly -- 22 July 2009 as a true record
<hhalpin> PROPOSED: to meet again Wed. Aug 5th (Nathan Eagle) or take summer vacation and try to book Nathan for later (Note that both DanBri and DKA are on vacation)? If so, for how long?
hhalpin: invited speaker for next week?
<rreck> yeah, im out next week
<rreck> i vote skip a week
<hhalpin> It's more european than american
hhalpin: skip next week?
<melvster> istr dan said he was skipping 3 weeks in total
<hhalpin> till August 19th?
<hhalpin> Any objections?
<hhalpin> The only issue here is that we kinda technical august 5th?
<PhilA2> Meeting: SWXG Weekly Telecon
<hhalpin> RESOLVED: Vacation till August 19th, assuming Nathan Eagle can be rebooked till then.
hhalpin: provisional vacation will 19th august
<hhalpin> 2. General Organization and Task Forces
<rreck> i thought metrics was a great discussion
<rreck> clean up actions +1
<hhalpin> Which order to do agenda?
<hhalpin> Note, we need someone to summarize last telecon (Gypsii and cperey on metrics) for final report.
hhalpin: can someone summarise the gypssii session?
<rreck> i dont think im prepared
rreck: had discussions about SNS but now summarise Gypsii
<rreck> basically its a challenge to do so
<hhalpin> ACTION: hhalpin to summarize metrics and gypsii talk [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-swxg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-61 - Summarize metrics and gypsii talk [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-08-05].
hhalpin: to summarise gypsii
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] Mischa to write up Soren and Jonathan's findings from last telecon for final report. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-swxg-minutes.html#action02]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] DKA to summarize OSLO and geoLocation conversation in order to spread knowledge of these efforts among W3C members. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-swxg-minutes.html#action03]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] danbri circulate wookie proposal to the xg [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-swxg-minutes.html#action04]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] Mischa to describe/implement a report of terms and conditions, and how they change between now and the end of the XG. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-swxg-minutes.html#action05]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] hhalpin to have http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf would refer to the new version, there will be a 'previous version' link to the current one [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-swxg-minutes.html#action06]
<hhalpin> Dealing with member-only bits on homepage...
<hhalpin> that there's lots of "member-only" sections which Kaliya felt might alienate people
<melvster> membership list is public and private
<melvster> there's a public version
<hhalpin> oh where's the public version?
<melvster> and a private version with email etc.
<rreck> we can move the participants aspects to be less salient on the web
<melvster> one sec
<melvster> it's linked from the private version ...
hhalpin: clean up the web page
<hhalpin> ACTION: take action to clean up the web-page and make it less intimidating to those who aren't members [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-swxg-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - take
<rreck> i think pointing out how the public can benefits from our activities on the web might be more "inviting"
<hhalpin> ACTION: hhalpin take action to clean up the web-page and make it less intimidating to those who aren't members [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-swxg-minutes.html#action08]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-62 - Take action to clean up the web-page and make it less intimidating to those who aren't members [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-08-05].
hhalpin: make it less intimidating
<rreck> we have new theme music
<hhalpin> 3. User Stories
hhalpin: go through user stories
<rreck> i actually have a new one i can document
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] adam to write up the boeing use case for enterprise social networks [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-swxg-minutes.html#action09]
<rreck> actually 2 !
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] hhalpin to write up the social network data exchange story [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-swxg-minutes.html#action10]
<hhalpin> Can you explain them rreck?
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] tpa to look for similar use cases list to expand ours [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-swxg-minutes.html#action11]
rreck: friend published photos on facebook
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] tinkster to add user story along lines of... if you enable import of contacts from other sites, then it lowers the barrier to entry for new people signing up at your site, hence get more users, hence get more advertising revenue. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-swxg-minutes.html#action12]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] danbri to write up orkut/i18n/"looking for" issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-swxg-minutes.html#action13]
rreck: spoke to friend to alter
photo settings, and didn't agree with how the pics were
... supporting SNS, problem faced is more paid propaganda. Matrix to determine the messages, whether the messages are propaganda or not
<melvster> 50 Cent Army http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party
<hhalpin> Do you want to take an action to do those?
rreck: chinese govn' pays party
personal to put up info
... discrete disagreement by integrating into discussions
<karl> I wonder how chinese gov actions in social networks is any different than marketing companies, brand management or obama campaign?
<PhilA2> interesting (and scary)
<MacTed> s/shill for government/shill/ -- "tweet for pay" is a similar new thing; "payola" among radio DJs is a longer term similar issue...
rreck: provide a platform without cencorship
they sound really good
<PhilA2> ACTION: rreck to write up use case based on situation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-swxg-minutes.html#action14]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-63 - Write up use case based on situation [on Ronald Reck - due 2009-08-05].
<MacTed> "shill case" :-)
sorry closed window by accident
<PhilA2> ACTION: rreck to write up use case based on shill case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-swxg-minutes.html#action15]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-64 - Write up use case based on shill case [on Ronald Reck - due 2009-08-05].
<PhilA2> close ACTION-63
<trackbot> ACTION-63 Write up use case based on situation closed
hhalpin: clean up use case docs
<hhalpin> I can hear you.
hhalpin: categorise use cases and user stories to make them more legible
<AlexPassant> mattroweshow: yes
<rreck> i think maybe just adding attributes to the use cases
fabgandon: very distributing use
cases covering different topics
... categorised by business and other topics, some of the scenarios are not covered by certain fields
hhalpin: group use cases abstractly?
fabgandon: good initial step, some are very technical compared to others
<hhalpin> Maybe separate the more technical ones from the less technical ones?
<rreck> im wondering about usecases about situations that ARE being dealt with in current implementations
fabgandon: some scenarios are just functionalities
<rreck> i think its important to have authors per usecase so there is someone to talk to about one
hhalpin: separate use cases which
are functionalities from others. use cases have different
levels of abstraction. address business developers and
... separate use cases into 3/4 buckets
<hhalpin> someone to talk to?
fabgandon: need someone to talk to about a use case
<rreck> i think the use cases should have unique identifiers so that we can refer to them from other contexts
fabgandon: point of call needed for each use case, in order to get the details
<AlexPassant> what about 'champions' for each use-case (as done in the SPARQL WG for new SPARQL features)
what is champions?
hhalpin: need author information next to the use case
<rreck> maybe we can ask author to add themselves to the use case
<rreck> or champions
<rreck> +1 champions
hhalpin: get use case doc by fall
<FabGandon> +1 for champion / contact per use case
<rreck> agreed we need a milestone for usecase "completion"
<rreck> i think recommendations in the report should/could be tied to usecases
<hhalpin> PROPOSAL: Each use-case gets a champion whose job is to determine the audience and the functionality, as well as fill out the existing template, and then is needs be rephrase the use-case on the right level of abstraction. Use-cases without champions will be dropped.
philA: functionality or requirements?
<rreck> functionality is possibly to technical?
hhalpin: not designing a tech'
<hhalpin> funtionality is too technical?
PhilA1: in use case doc normally have use cases and requirements
<rreck> at a high level people know what they want, not how it can be accomplished
fabgandon: divide scenario into 2 types: before and after
<rreck> i think as a group we should focus more on what is to be accomplished
fabgandon: how was the scenario before? what was the requirements?
hhalpin: what are the initial requirements? what functionalities could achieve this?
<rreck> i think the heavily technical aspects alienate less technical participants
hhalpin: don't specify the tech, but describe what would happen
<hhalpin> Sounds like a huge amount of work..
hhalpin: second doc states the
... moving tech bits to another doc
<rreck> especially since technology changes while needs might be more persistent
<rreck> yes i think it would benefit from a clean up
hhalpin: huge amount of work to produce 3 output docs
<hhalpin> the document is quite long right now...
hhalpin: clean use case doc needed
<hhalpin> and a bit chaotic
<rreck> im overwelmed by looking at the document also
MacTed: need a clear template of what the use cases should look like
<rreck> current state as a word bothers me because sometimes the current facebook does something i want them to continue to do
hhalpin: need to refactor the template, and ask for use case champions and rework the use case into the template for the right level of abstraction. Reduce the use cases to a smaller number
fabgandon: the doc isnt too big,
the use cases are
... always look at use cases that are relevant
<rreck> i would prefer not cutting down the number of usecases
<rreck> +1 keep usecase without duplicates
PhilA2: look for duplication of use cases and then merge where appropriate
hhalpin: need to create a new
template for the use cases
... anyone want to put the template out?
<rreck> i can contribute to it
<rreck> but i dont think i can do the whole thing
<rreck> plus im out next week
<hhalpin> Would that work?
<rreck> yes i will make recommendations about how it can be modied
<hhalpin> ACTION: rreck to send some thoughts on new template to be sent out to listserv [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-swxg-minutes.html#action16]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-65 - Send some thoughts on new template to be sent out to listserv [on Ronald Reck - due 2009-08-05].
<rreck> modified rather
<melvster> question: what if more than one person wants to champion a use case?
<rreck> i think that is imperative
champions is a good idea
<PhilA2> the champion per UC sounds like the way forward to me
<PhilA2> There's a lot of work that needs splitting up
hhalpin: use cases to have champions, any objections?
<hhalpin> RESOLVED: Each use-case gets a champion whose job is to fit the use-case to the template, as well as fill out the existing template, and then is needs be rephrase the use-case on the right level of abstraction. Use-cases without champions will be dropped.
<hhalpin> 4. Invited Guest Invitations
<rreck> i think XG participants should attend or give regrets
<hhalpin> Any suggestions?
<rreck> invited speakers are good
hhalpin: have the invited speakers been useful?
<hhalpin> Should we keep doing this?
<rreck> +1 continue speakers
PhilA2: good for the group, opens up discussions
hhalpin: tradeoff between speakers and how to move forward
<MacTed> +1 continue
<rreck> i think focus on deliverables is important
hhalpin: last 3/4 meetings were
invited speakers, should we have less speakers and more
... may not get work done due to speakers
PhilA2: too time consuming for speakers
<hhalpin> maybe try to restrict invited speakers to 15-20 minutes, 10 minutes questions
hhalpin: what speakers to people
want to see first of the ones lined up?
... can fit in only so many speakers
<rreck> maybe the speakers can be in a different time slot than the meeting?
hhalpin: send out invitations to get people lined up for september
PhilA2: 2 slots in sept are already taken
hhalpin: won't get to the speakers until nov/dec
<rreck> add time slots
<melvster> Perhaps someone from Google, eg brad fitzpatrick
<hhalpin> we can hear you
<rreck> +1 XMPP
<PhilA2> Schedule already has two speakers lined for September (see http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Schedule)
<hhalpin> OK, let's aim for XMPP and DataPortability in October then
<PhilA2> (it would be hard to univite someone ;-) )
mattrowshow: data portability/xmpp speaker
hhalpin: what is good about the group? what needs to be improved?
<rreck> i think there should be accountability for participation in the group
hhalpin: abstract the
requirements to an empirically gathered matrix
... gauge what needs to be done within this field
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] danbri to find someone from Opera to talk Widgets [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-swxg-minutes.html#action17]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] danbri and karl to contact Evan of identi.ca over OpenMicroblogging and W3C. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-swxg-minutes.html#action18]
<rreck> +1 commitment
hhalpin: require editors for documents
<melvster> I'd be happy to help to try and prepare a document for a matrix of use case / functionalities vs social nets
hhalpin: what documents do people feel that they could input/commit to?
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] Renato and DanBri and hhalpin to schedule DataPortability.org/XMPP [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-swxg-minutes.html#action19]
<rreck> +1 melvster
<PhilA2> as ever the mind is willing, it's the time...
<hhalpin> ACTION: [DONE] PhilA to book Dave Raggett to talk about Context WG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-swxg-minutes.html#action20]
i will be willing to help on the matrix document too
<hhalpin> 5. Future Direction of Group Discussion
hhalpin: need to get requirements
out of use case doc and then apply it to the matrix
... this use case requires X, this use case requires Y
<rreck> harry you just said the answer to your own question
hhalpin: columns = network, rows = tech
<hhalpin> does that make sense as a way forward?
<melvster> +1 columns for soc nets, rows for use cases or functionalities
<rreck> you just earned an action item
hhalpin: rows = functionalities
<hhalpin> It's OK if the matrix is sparsely populated...
<hhalpin> it shows how much work is to be done :)
<rreck> good, it means as a group we are ahead of the curve
<melvster> yes ill take an action
<hhalpin> ACTION: melvster to draft columns=network rows=tech matrix for tech report [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-swxg-minutes.html#action21]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - melvster
<hhalpin> Meeting Adjourned
hhalpin: any other topics to discuss?
hhalpin: meeting adjourned
<PhilA2> see everyone after the break
<hhalpin> Thanks everyone!
hhalpin: have draft of use case doc done by 19th august