SWXG Weekly telecon

22 Jul 2009

See also: IRC log


rreck, AlexKorth, mischat, DKA, DaveReynolds, cperey, Phil_Archer, samcritchley, +49.238.aacc, AlexPassant, caribou, bblfish, hhalpin, FabGandon, +1.781.273.aaee,
Dan Applequist
rreck, PhilA

NB These minutes were cobbled together from the IRC log after it was realised that RRS Agent was not in the room. AAAGGGHHHHH

<rreck> DKA: requests speakers announce themselves for my benefit

<PhilA2> scribeNick:rreck

<DKA> http://www.w3.org/2009/07/15-swxg-minutes.html

<mischat> I have to apologise I have not finished my actions. But I have found time to work on them today and tomorrow. Will mail the list when I think I am done with the work.

<Zakim> +hhalpin

<FabGandon> Zakim, +49.238.aadd is me

<Zakim> +FabGandon; got it

<rreck> DKA: review the minutes from last week's call

<cperey> I cannot attend

<cperey> yes, it is 29 july

<rreck> DKA: cannot attend the next meeting

<danbri> regrets from me (at least start of the call; will try to join later)

<rreck> DKA: today's call is about metrics

<danbri> i am away next 3 weeks also, but will update the Invites page before i leave

<DKA> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/weekly-agenda.html

<PhilA2> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/weekly-agenda.html

<PhilA2> Chair: DKA

<rreck> DKA: any volunteers for the actions listed on the agenda?

<rreck> rreck: i entered a user story

<PhilA2> q+

<: Zakim sees PhilA on the speaker queue

<cperey> context task force is very vague

<rreck> harry: please finish actions they have left so that next meetings are more productive

<mischat> I have not completed my actions either. I have 2 actions to complete. One summarise our chats, and the second one was to set up a git repo of T&Cs.

<DKA> ack phila

<: Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue

<mischat> i will get them done soon.

<mischat> http://www.w3.org/2007/uwa/wiki/New_Charter

<rreck> phil: charter under development for working group about context awareness

<rreck> DKA: very relevant effort

<rreck> w

<cperey> are they aware of what is happening in this XG?

<rreck> DKA: claudio should be interested in this

<rreck> DKA: unbiquious web domain

<mischat> no mention of the SWXG on the wiki

<cperey> this is important

<rreck> phil: let's not take too much time today talking about this since we have guests

<mischat> agreed this is important work. And there is talk of actual output

<rreck> DKA: recommends phil to invite to the next meeting

<rreck> s //dave

<cperey> nope

<PhilA2> action: PhilA to contact Dave Ragget and invite him to talk to the XG

<cperey> 1

<rreck> DKA: let move on to the speaker SAm

<mischat> yes

< -> MacTed has joined swxg

<PhilA2> action: Archer to contact Dave Ragget and invite him to talk to the XG

<trackbot> noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.

<trackbot:> Created ACTION-60 - Contact Dave Ragget and invite him to talk to the XG [on Phil Archer - due 2009-07-29].

<cperey> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/images/e/eb/20090721-GyPSii-overview.pdf

<rreck> Sam: i have slides to supplement my talk

<Zakim> + +1.781.273.aaee

<rreck> Sam: can everyone see the PDF?

<Macted:> Zakim, aaee is OpenLink_Software

<Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it

<Macted:> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily MacTed

<Zakim> +MacTed; got it

<: -> lkagal has joined swxg

<Macted:> Zakim, mute me

<Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

<rreck> Sam: gypsy is introduced since iphone and googlephone

<cperey> GyPSii was PRIOR to iPhone and Android

<rreck> Sam: location based app on Windows mobile in 2003

<rreck> sorry i got that backwards

<Zakim> -cperey

<rreck> Sam: focus is around recording your life

<rreck> Sam: and publishing thereof, facebook and twitter

<mischat> lifelogging, audio, video, image based recording of your life

<Zakim> +cperey

<rreck> Sam: user generated content is key

<rreck> Sam: finding and making friends and where they are and have been

<rreck> Sam: and what is around you

<rreck> Sam: see where things are on a map, museums, gas stations

<rreck> Sam: transport information

<rreck> Sam: messages and newsfeed

<rreck> Sam: business model is advertising based, location based

<: -> AndreaP has joined swxg

<rreck> Sam: content that is nearby. its in China and US

<AndreaP> zakim, code

<Zakim> I don't understand 'code', AndreaP

<AndreaP> zakim, code?

<Zakim> the conference code is 7994 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), AndreaP

<mischat> video of gypsii: http://www.gypsii.com/icache/video/intro_web.html

<rreck> Sam: available on app stores. blackberry

<rreck> Sam: Mobile Apps ? store, download & pre-installed. S60, BB, iPhone, J2ME

<Zakim> +csma

<rreck> Sam: we havent focused on mobile website in western areas

<rreck> Sam: future technologies will change this

<rreck> Sam: partners can use an API

<rreck> Sam: supports 18 languages

<Zakim> + +1.617.800.aaff

<karl>zakim, +1.617.800.aaff is karl

<Zakim> +karl; got it

<rreck> Sam: China is the busiest. cannot disclose the user numbers ATM

<rreck> Sam: not the size of the largest networks

<rreck> Sam: slides 3 & 4 are screenshots

<rreck> Sam: slide 5 is about security

<rreck> Sam: default is not show location

<rreck> Sam: everyone can see profile

<rreck> Sam: Western areas are more concerned about this

<rreck> Sam: content visibility default allows everyone to see it

<rreck> Sam: these settings can be changed

<rreck> Sam: friend of friend setting is being considered for the future

<rreck> Sam: identification standard is important

<rreck> Sam: since advertising is the business model. knowing the member is important to perpetuate this

<rreck> Sam: importing and exporting media would be nice

<rreck> Sam: there are potential conflicts of interest in developing this further

<rreck> Sam: future sensor information would be useful

<rreck> Sam: metrics are useful for investors

<AlexKorth> until how many members?

<rreck> Sam: opt in feature for adding comments

<mischat> q+

<: Zakim sees mischat on the speaker queue

<mischat> zakim, unmute me

<Zakim> mischat should no longer be muted

<DKA> q?

<: Zakim sees mischat on the speaker queue

<DKA> ack misc

<: Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue

<rreck> Sam: determining the impact of these features would be helpful

<rreck> mischat: how much information do you need from users aside from that provided by openID

<rreck> Sam: email and mobile phone number is requested

<rreck> Sam: we contact people through those vectors

<rreck> Sam: we ask for name but cannot verify it

<rreck> Sam: we hope to collect additional information

<rreck> mischat: are you allowing people to comment on locations?

<rreck> Sam: this requires identification of a place at a location. comments about that place is then possible

<rreck> mischat: i believe the information you request is available through openID

<rreck> Sam: can we retain that information?

<PhilA2> zakim, close action-60

<Zakim> I don't understand 'close action-60', PhilA2

<rreck> mischat: yes, through an unique identifier. A URI

<karl> http://twitter.com/fil_rezo_net/status/2777730072

<PhilA2> close action-60

<trackbot> attempting to close ACTION-60.

<trackbot:> ACTION-60 Contact Dave Ragget and invite him to talk to the XG closed

<rreck> harry: this is still in development. and depends on the openID provider

<karl> tweet about gypsii slides "Profile Information.. allows you to choose who.. see your profile information.. either everyone, or just friends => is not security"

<bblfish> of course there is foaf+ssl, but perhaps too early for GyPSii

<bblfish> q+

<: Zakim sees bblfish on the speaker queue

<rreck> DKA: is there a fresh URI for attribute exchange and the direction of openID?

<mischat> zakim, mute me

<Zakim> mischat should now be muted

<DKA> ack bblf

<: Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue

<mischat> yay to foaf+ssl

<rreck> henry is speaking?

<melvster> Recent thread on OpenID Attribute Exchange vs SREG http://openid.net/pipermail/general/2009-July/009276.html

<mischat> henry story

<rreck> henry: is there a way to import your network?

<rreck> henry: there are approaches for accomplishing this in a semantically aware way

<rreck> Sam: business drivers do not support this necessarily

<bblfish> you don't import networks you deal with them by reference http://esw.w3.org/topic/foaf+ssl

<rreck> thanks for the clarification

<cperey> the business benefits of Open Social Web

<DKA> q?

<: Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue

<rreck> Harry: can you prioritize the top 3 business needs?

<rreck> harry: for standardization

<cperey> he gave us FOUR

<cperey> that's probably his top 4

<rreck> Sam: its hard to say

<rreck> Sam: context information

<caribou> karl, no plan for audience segregation is not that surprising

<cperey> Sam is going to STAY engaged

<cperey> right??

<rreck> DKA: can we move on to metrics?

<rreck> thanks Sam BTW

<cperey> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/images/f/f2/Social_networking_metrics_July_2009.pdf

<rreck> cperey: visuals that are words at the URL

<rreck> cperey: i dont think social networks are websites

<rreck> cperey: page impressions are not the right metric

<rreck> cperey: im in the business of sizing things. comparing progress over time

<mischat> this is the openID simple registration extension: http://openid.net/specs/openid-simple-registration-extension-1_1-01.html

<rreck> cperey: predicting change in the future. without sizing its hard to quantify for different audiences

<rreck> cperey: who performs the metrics not always sharing it with the public

<bblfish> concerning my question to Sam earlier it was: "Would it be useful to for new users to be able to enter your service with their social network allready - a bit like openid attribute exchange makes it easy to import simple attributes when arriving at a service" answer: "yes, that would be great -- but business models would need to be defined" (That's how I understood it)

<rreck> cperey: twitter shows an number of followers or contents published

<mischat> we did something like this on http://qdos.com/ we count and give you numbers about people on the web

<rreck> cperey: what can you measure? what are the units?

<rreck> cperey: units over time is important, since change is what people are interested in

<rreck> cperey: i do not like measuring the number of accounts created since its not relevant or useful

<mischat> for example we count items assosicated to a user: http://qdos.com/celeb/Barack-Obama/6050a1f1a818bf959f70afbd46273dea-ext/turtle. We use ad-hoc metrics though ..

<mattroweshow> mischat do you count the number of links to a person's blog as a measure?

<mischat> mattroweshow: i cant recall, but yeah i recall doing some alex based counting

<rreck> cperey: a person can create multiple account

<rreck> i think time spent on the service is important

<rreck> cperey: engagement metrics are useful

<rreck> cperey: what is the role of the W3C in this process

<rreck> cperey: can the people on the call please comment on the role of the W3C

<rreck> DKA: the web wasnt intended to be measured the way it is

<rreck> zakim, unmute me

<Zakim> rreck should no longer be muted

<rreck> harry: i didnt defend webpage views as a metric

<bblfish> q+

<: Zakim sees bblfish on the speaker queue

<rreck> harry: i think we should recommend a set of metrics that are useful

<DKA> I wonder if metrics around social interactions wouldn't be more valuable in the world of the social web - e.g. number of interactions, quality of interactions, messages, calendars, comments left, tagging...

<PhilA2> q+

<: Zakim sees bblfish, PhilA on the speaker queue

<rreck> i agree with DKA

<DKA> q?

<: Zakim sees bblfish, PhilA on the speaker queue

<mattroweshow> DKA +1

<rreck> cperey agrees with harry about recommending appropriate metrics. build tools into the system to support gathering that metric

<rreck> cperey: attention or engagement are words that are useful

<mischat> user's might not what that information exposed.

<DKA> q?

<: Zakim sees bblfish, PhilA on the speaker queue

<rreck> exactly mischat

<mischat> s/'s//g

<DKA> ack bblfish

<: Zakim sees PhilA on the speaker queue

<FabGandon> q+ to say that there is also an oportunity for schemas used by and for these metrics

<: Zakim sees PhilA, FabGandon on the speaker queue

<AlexKorth> totally agree

<mischat> 1

<DKA> In this world of "one social network" it might still be useful to measure "where" people spend their time within this network...

<rreck> there is one global social network so gathering number of users of any given network is not particularly helpful

<rreck> people value and contribution to the network value are different

<DKA> q?

<: Zakim sees PhilA, FabGandon on the speaker queue

<rreck> cperey: objects shared is something that can be measured

<mischat> that may help weight the various counts collected

<DKA> ack phila

<: Zakim sees FabGandon on the speaker queue

<DKA> q?

<: Zakim sees FabGandon on the speaker queue

<rreck> we are out of time, which the scribe gratefully acknowledges

<: -> karl has joined swxg

<cperey> Yes, Phil!!! Thank you!

<DKA> +1 to Phil (that was the point ref http I was trying to make)

<rreck> there is a ton of useful stuff im not capturing

<mischat> q?

<: Zakim sees FabGandon on the speaker queue

<rreck> cperey: it doesnt have to be in a browser to have impact

<DKA> ack Fab

<Zakim> FabGandon, you wanted to say that there is also an oportunity for schemas used by and for these metrics

<: Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue

<PhilA2> Fabien: I'm very much intersted in the discussion around metrics

<PhilA2> ... the schemas around the metrics are also key

<cperey> 1

<rreck> FabGandon: we could work on schemas on the metrics

<PhilA2> .. based around heterogenous networks

<FabGandon> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assortativity

<PhilA2> Fabien: If someone has spent CPU time on a task, if he can put it back in the network saying what and how he calculated it - would be good

<PhilA2> e.g. calculate the associativity of a network - I'd like to know that data later

<PhilA2> ... from a W3C P.O.V. there's also a point about the input nad output of these metrics

<FabGandon> e.g ; here http://ns.inria.fr/semsna/2009/06/21/voc.rdf

<rreck> seems like we could talk more about this later

<cperey> thanks!!

<PhilA2> DKA: Anotehr thing - one of the engines that keeps the innovation going is that good metrics are improtant

<rreck> or create a document that makes a recommendation

<PhilA2> ... once metircs are established they tend to staick around even if they're fundamtally useless

<PhilA2> ... the XG can take a lead on working out what is useful

<PhilA2> Christine: I'm glad to have had the opp. to bring it up

<PhilA2> Thaks evetone, bye