See also: IRC log
NB These minutes were cobbled together from the IRC log after it was realised that RRS Agent was not in the room. AAAGGGHHHHH
<rreck> DKA: requests speakers announce themselves for my benefit
<PhilA2> scribeNick:rreck
<DKA> http://www.w3.org/2009/07/15-swxg-minutes.html
<mischat> I have to apologise I have not finished my actions. But I have found time to work on them today and tomorrow. Will mail the list when I think I am done with the work.
<Zakim> +hhalpin
<FabGandon> Zakim, +49.238.aadd is me
<Zakim> +FabGandon; got it
<rreck> DKA: review the minutes from last week's call
<cperey> I cannot attend
<cperey> yes, it is 29 july
<rreck> DKA: cannot attend the next meeting
<danbri> regrets from me (at least start of the call; will try to join later)
<rreck> DKA: today's call is about metrics
<danbri> i am away next 3 weeks also, but will update the Invites page before i leave
<DKA> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/weekly-agenda.html
<PhilA2> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/weekly-agenda.html
<PhilA2> Chair: DKA
<rreck> DKA: any volunteers for the actions listed on the agenda?
<rreck> rreck: i entered a user story
<PhilA2> q+
<: Zakim sees PhilA on the speaker queue
<cperey> context task force is very vague
<rreck> harry: please finish actions they have left so that next meetings are more productive
<mischat> I have not completed my actions either. I have 2 actions to complete. One summarise our chats, and the second one was to set up a git repo of T&Cs.
<DKA> ack phila
<: Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
<mischat> i will get them done soon.
<mischat> http://www.w3.org/2007/uwa/wiki/New_Charter
<rreck> phil: charter under development for working group about context awareness
<rreck> DKA: very relevant effort
<rreck> w
<cperey> are they aware of what is happening in this XG?
<rreck> DKA: claudio should be interested in this
<rreck> DKA: unbiquious web domain
<mischat> no mention of the SWXG on the wiki
<cperey> this is important
<rreck> phil: let's not take too much time today talking about this since we have guests
<mischat> agreed this is important work. And there is talk of actual output
<rreck> DKA: recommends phil to invite
<rreck> s /
<cperey> nope
<PhilA2> action: PhilA to contact Dave Ragget and invite him to talk to the XG
<cperey> 1
<rreck> DKA: let move on to the speaker SAm
<mischat> yes
< -> MacTed has joined swxg
<PhilA2> action: Archer to contact Dave Ragget and invite him to talk to the XG
<trackbot> noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
<trackbot:> Created ACTION-60 - Contact Dave Ragget and invite him to talk to the XG [on Phil Archer - due 2009-07-29].
<cperey> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/images/e/eb/20090721-GyPSii-overview.pdf
<rreck> Sam: i have slides to supplement my talk
<Zakim> + +1.781.273.aaee
<rreck> Sam: can everyone see the PDF?
<Macted:> Zakim, aaee is OpenLink_Software
<Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it
<Macted:> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily MacTed
<Zakim> +MacTed; got it
<: -> lkagal has joined swxg
<Macted:> Zakim, mute me
<Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
<rreck> Sam: gypsy is introduced since iphone and googlephone
<cperey> GyPSii was PRIOR to iPhone and Android
<rreck> Sam: location based app on Windows mobile in 2003
<rreck> sorry i got that backwards
<Zakim> -cperey
<rreck> Sam: focus is around recording your life
<rreck> Sam: and publishing thereof, facebook and twitter
<mischat> lifelogging, audio, video, image based recording of your life
<Zakim> +cperey
<rreck> Sam: user generated content is key
<rreck> Sam: finding and making friends and where they are and have been
<rreck> Sam: and what is around you
<rreck> Sam: see where things are on a map, museums, gas stations
<rreck> Sam: transport information
<rreck> Sam: messages and newsfeed
<rreck> Sam: business model is advertising based, location based
<: -> AndreaP has joined swxg
<rreck> Sam: content that is nearby. its in China and US
<AndreaP> zakim, code
<Zakim> I don't understand 'code', AndreaP
<AndreaP> zakim, code?
<Zakim> the conference code is 7994 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), AndreaP
<mischat> video of gypsii: http://www.gypsii.com/icache/video/intro_web.html
<rreck> Sam: available on app stores. blackberry
<rreck> Sam: Mobile Apps ? store, download & pre-installed. S60, BB, iPhone, J2ME
<Zakim> +csma
<rreck> Sam: we havent focused on mobile website in western areas
<rreck> Sam: future technologies will change this
<rreck> Sam: partners can use an API
<rreck> Sam: supports 18 languages
<Zakim> + +1.617.800.aaff
<karl>zakim, +1.617.800.aaff is karl
<Zakim> +karl; got it
<rreck> Sam: China is the busiest. cannot disclose the user numbers ATM
<rreck> Sam: not the size of the largest networks
<rreck> Sam: slides 3 & 4 are screenshots
<rreck> Sam: slide 5 is about security
<rreck> Sam: default is not show location
<rreck> Sam: everyone can see profile
<rreck> Sam: Western areas are more concerned about this
<rreck> Sam: content visibility default allows everyone to see it
<rreck> Sam: these settings can be changed
<rreck> Sam: friend of friend setting is being considered for the future
<rreck> Sam: identification standard is important
<rreck> Sam: since advertising is the business model. knowing the member is important to perpetuate this
<rreck> Sam: importing and exporting media would be nice
<rreck> Sam: there are potential conflicts of interest in developing this further
<rreck> Sam: future sensor information would be useful
<rreck> Sam: metrics are useful for investors
<AlexKorth> until how many members?
<rreck> Sam: opt in feature for adding comments
<mischat> q+
<: Zakim sees mischat on the speaker queue
<mischat> zakim, unmute me
<Zakim> mischat should no longer be muted
<DKA> q?
<: Zakim sees mischat on the speaker queue
<DKA> ack misc
<: Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
<rreck> Sam: determining the impact of these features would be helpful
<rreck> mischat: how much information do you need from users aside from that provided by openID
<rreck> Sam: email and mobile phone number is requested
<rreck> Sam: we contact people through those vectors
<rreck> Sam: we ask for name but cannot verify it
<rreck> Sam: we hope to collect additional information
<rreck> mischat: are you allowing people to comment on locations?
<rreck> Sam: this requires identification of a place at a location. comments about that place is then possible
<rreck> mischat: i believe the information you request is available through openID
<rreck> Sam: can we retain that information?
<PhilA2> zakim, close action-60
<Zakim> I don't understand 'close action-60', PhilA2
<rreck> mischat: yes, through an unique identifier. A URI
<karl> http://twitter.com/fil_rezo_net/status/2777730072
<PhilA2> close action-60
<trackbot> attempting to close ACTION-60.
<trackbot:> ACTION-60 Contact Dave Ragget and invite him to talk to the XG closed
<rreck> harry: this is still in development. and depends on the openID provider
<karl> tweet about gypsii slides "Profile Information.. allows you to choose who.. see your profile information.. either everyone, or just friends => is not security"
<bblfish> of course there is foaf+ssl, but perhaps too early for GyPSii
<bblfish> q+
<: Zakim sees bblfish on the speaker queue
<rreck> DKA: is there a fresh URI for attribute exchange and the direction of openID?
<mischat> zakim, mute me
<Zakim> mischat should now be muted
<DKA> ack bblf
<: Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
<mischat> yay to foaf+ssl
<rreck> henry is speaking?
<melvster> Recent thread on OpenID Attribute Exchange vs SREG http://openid.net/pipermail/general/2009-July/009276.html
<mischat> henry story
<rreck> henry: is there a way to import your network?
<rreck> henry: there are approaches for accomplishing this in a semantically aware way
<rreck> Sam: business drivers do not support this necessarily
<bblfish> you don't import networks you deal with them by reference http://esw.w3.org/topic/foaf+ssl
<rreck> thanks for the clarification
<cperey> the business benefits of Open Social Web
<DKA> q?
<: Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
<rreck> Harry: can you prioritize the top 3 business needs?
<rreck> harry: for standardization
<cperey> he gave us FOUR
<cperey> that's probably his top 4
<rreck> Sam: its hard to say
<rreck> Sam: context information
<caribou> karl, no plan for audience segregation is not that surprising
<cperey> Sam is going to STAY engaged
<cperey> right??
<rreck> DKA: can we move on to metrics?
<rreck> thanks Sam BTW
<cperey> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/images/f/f2/Social_networking_metrics_July_2009.pdf
<rreck> cperey: visuals that are words at the URL
<rreck> cperey: i dont think social networks are websites
<rreck> cperey: page impressions are not the right metric
<rreck> cperey: im in the business of sizing things. comparing progress over time
<mischat> this is the openID simple registration extension: http://openid.net/specs/openid-simple-registration-extension-1_1-01.html
<rreck> cperey: predicting change in the future. without sizing its hard to quantify for different audiences
<rreck> cperey: who performs the metrics not always sharing it with the public
<bblfish> concerning my question to Sam earlier it was: "Would it be useful to for new users to be able to enter your service with their social network allready - a bit like openid attribute exchange makes it easy to import simple attributes when arriving at a service" answer: "yes, that would be great -- but business models would need to be defined" (That's how I understood it)
<rreck> cperey: twitter shows an number of followers or contents published
<mischat> we did something like this on http://qdos.com/ we count and give you numbers about people on the web
<rreck> cperey: what can you measure? what are the units?
<rreck> cperey: units over time is important, since change is what people are interested in
<rreck> cperey: i do not like measuring the number of accounts created since its not relevant or useful
<mischat> for example we count items assosicated to a user: http://qdos.com/celeb/Barack-Obama/6050a1f1a818bf959f70afbd46273dea-ext/turtle. We use ad-hoc metrics though ..
<mattroweshow> mischat do you count the number of links to a person's blog as a measure?
<mischat> mattroweshow: i cant recall, but yeah i recall doing some alex based counting
<rreck> cperey: a person can create multiple account
<rreck> i think time spent on the service is important
<rreck> cperey: engagement metrics are useful
<rreck> cperey: what is the role of the W3C in this process
<rreck> cperey: can the people on the call please comment on the role of the W3C
<rreck> DKA: the web wasnt intended to be measured the way it is
<rreck> zakim, unmute me
<Zakim> rreck should no longer be muted
<rreck> harry: i didnt defend webpage views as a metric
<bblfish> q+
<: Zakim sees bblfish on the speaker queue
<rreck> harry: i think we should recommend a set of metrics that are useful
<DKA> I wonder if metrics around social interactions wouldn't be more valuable in the world of the social web - e.g. number of interactions, quality of interactions, messages, calendars, comments left, tagging...
<PhilA2> q+
<: Zakim sees bblfish, PhilA on the speaker queue
<rreck> i agree with DKA
<DKA> q?
<: Zakim sees bblfish, PhilA on the speaker queue
<mattroweshow> DKA +1
<rreck> cperey agrees with harry about recommending appropriate metrics. build tools into the system to support gathering that metric
<rreck> cperey: attention or engagement are words that are useful
<mischat> user's might not what that information exposed.
<DKA> q?
<: Zakim sees bblfish, PhilA on the speaker queue
<rreck> exactly mischat
<mischat> s/'s//g
<DKA> ack bblfish
<: Zakim sees PhilA on the speaker queue
<FabGandon> q+ to say that there is also an oportunity for schemas used by and for these metrics
<: Zakim sees PhilA, FabGandon on the speaker queue
<AlexKorth> totally agree
<mischat> 1
<DKA> In this world of "one social network" it might still be useful to measure "where" people spend their time within this network...
<rreck> there is one global social network so gathering number of users of any given network is not particularly helpful
<rreck> people value and contribution to the network value are different
<DKA> q?
<: Zakim sees PhilA, FabGandon on the speaker queue
<rreck> cperey: objects shared is something that can be measured
<mischat> that may help weight the various counts collected
<DKA> ack phila
<: Zakim sees FabGandon on the speaker queue
<DKA> q?
<: Zakim sees FabGandon on the speaker queue
<rreck> we are out of time, which the scribe gratefully acknowledges
<: -> karl has joined swxg
<cperey> Yes, Phil!!! Thank you!
<DKA> +1 to Phil (that was the point ref http I was trying to make)
<rreck> there is a ton of useful stuff im not capturing
<mischat> q?
<: Zakim sees FabGandon on the speaker queue
<rreck> cperey: it doesnt have to be in a browser to have impact
<DKA> ack Fab
<Zakim> FabGandon, you wanted to say that there is also an oportunity for schemas used by and for these metrics
<: Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
<PhilA2> Fabien: I'm very much intersted in the discussion around metrics
<PhilA2> ... the schemas around the metrics are also key
<cperey> 1
<rreck> FabGandon: we could work on schemas on the metrics
<PhilA2> .. based around heterogenous networks
<FabGandon> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assortativity
<PhilA2> Fabien: If someone has spent CPU time on a task, if he can put it back in the network saying what and how he calculated it - would be good
<PhilA2> e.g. calculate the associativity of a network - I'd like to know that data later
<PhilA2> ... from a W3C P.O.V. there's also a point about the input nad output of these metrics
<FabGandon> e.g ; here http://ns.inria.fr/semsna/2009/06/21/voc.rdf
<rreck> seems like we could talk more about this later
<cperey> thanks!!
<PhilA2> DKA: Anotehr thing - one of the engines that keeps the innovation going is that good metrics are improtant
<rreck> or create a document that makes a recommendation
<PhilA2> ... once metircs are established they tend to staick around even if they're fundamtally useless
<PhilA2> ... the XG can take a lead on working out what is useful
<PhilA2> Christine: I'm glad to have had the opp. to bring it up
<PhilA2> Thaks evetone, bye