See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 15 July 2009
<Tina> I am present on IRC for now; there is noise in the office.
ok
Steven: Markus has agreed to co-chair for the rest of the year
Steven: I am away for three weeks, Markus too
Shane: [laughs]
Steven: Feel free to meet to get things done
<Tina> I will be gone between the 15th and 22nd of August. However, due to somewhat expected family problems I may be sending more regrets than normal.
Subtopic: ISSUE 17: DTD doesn't allow @lang
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/bjoern-issues.html#ISSUE16
SHANE: Fixed
Ss/SHANE/Shane/
Shane: It's telling that he can't be polite about this sort of thing
Subtopic: No implementation report
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/bjoern-issues.html#ISSUE17
Shane: DO we need an implementation report for a PER
Steven: No
Shane: Then what am I missing?
<scribe> Scribe: Steven
Shane: There is a second part to this issue
Steven: Oh, I should have split it off,sorry
Shane: He says that XHTML 1.1
requires to be ...
... not true, it says "SHOULD"
<ShaneM> XHTML 1.1 documents SHOULD be labeled with the Internet Media Type "application/xhtml+xml" as defined in [RFC3236]. For further information on using media types with XHTML, see the informative note [XHTMLMIME].
Steven: Then fine
<Tina> Worth noting, perhaps, that RFC 'SHOULD' doesn't mean "absolutely have to". Never did.
<ShaneM> previous REC is at http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/REC-xhtml11-20010531/
Shane: In the previous rec, we didn't say anything on this topic
<ShaneM> an editors draft at: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml11-20090106/conformance.html#strict
Shane: Do we mention it in
M12N?
... Definitely not
... M12N does not define a document type
... XHTML+RDFa also says SHOULD on the media type
So the conclusion on issue 18.2 is that he is just wrong
S/So/Steven: So/
Shane: Yes
Subtopic: ISSUE 19: Empty string in @lang
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/bjoern-issues.html#ISSUE18
Shane: Don't understand this;
he's talking about XHTML 1.0
... and also 1.1
... HTML 4 does not permit an empty lang attribute
... apparently xml:lang does
Steven: Have we ever had a request for this change?
Shane: No
Steven: What does I18N say?
Shane: I'm sure they support an
empty value,for turning off the lang
... I don't see how we can make that change
... which means that lang and xml:lang are not the same
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/2007-10-26/multipage/section-global.html
Steven: HTML5 has changed this
Shane: I don't think they can do
that
... because in XML says that xml:lang says something else
<ShaneM> In particular, the empty value of xml:lang is used on an element B to override a specification of xml:lang on an enclosing element A, without specifying another language. Within B, it is considered that there is no language information available, just as if xml:lang had not been specified on B or any of its ancestors.
<ShaneM> rationale: When embedding an XML fragment within a document (such as wrapping a payload inside a SOAP envelope), it is necessary to be able to specify that language information specified higher up in the element tree doesn't apply in the fragment, i.e. to break the inheritance chain without specifying a new language. Note that the empty string is different from the RFC 3066 tag "und" (undetermined). The latter is used "if the language associated with
Shane: Interesting rationale
<ShaneM> When embedding an XML fragment within a document (such as wrapping a payload inside a SOAP envelope), it is necessary to be able to specify that language information specified higher up in the element tree doesn't apply in the fragment, i.e. to break the inheritance chain without specifying a new language. Note that the empty string is different from the RFC 3066 tag "und" (undetermined). The latter is used "if the language associated with an item ca
<ShaneM> an item cannot be determined" or "for works having textual content consisting of arbitrary syllables, humming or other human-produced sounds for which a language cannot be specified." (from MARC Code List for Languages). The former (empty string) may be used whenever language codes are not applicable, such as for "instrumental or electronic music; sound recordings consisting of nonverbal sounds; audiovisual materials with no narration, printed titl
Steven: For a PER can we make
this change?
... I think yes
<alessio> +1
Shane: My point is "what should
UAs expect?"
... Means a change to M12N
Steven: We've never been asked to
make this change
... we were asked to add lang from HTML4, but not with the
empty value
Shane: M12N doesn't have lang!
Steven: XML spec has type
CDATA
... what do we have for xml:lang, and lang?
http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/PER-xhtml11-20090507/xhtml11.html#s_doctype
Shane: In the DTD we have
LanguageCode.datatype
... which is CDATA, so the DTD allows it to be empty
Steven: So are we OK on this issue?
<alessio> yes
Shane: I think so
Steven: Let's just point out that
lang and xml:lang accept the same values, and the definition of
what lang means is taken from HTML4
... but that lang *is* allowed to be empty
Subtopic: ISSUE 20(?): Inheritance from M12N
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/bjoern-issues.html#ISSUE19
Shane: Is there an issue?
Steven: That's why I put a question mark; I wasn't sure
hane: He doesn't have a reference
to the "two dozen issues",so I don't know what he's talking
about. But anyway, that's about M12N
... but he's wrong, there was no reason why M12N 1.1 couldn't
have been a PER
<alessio> in fact, I don't see the problem
hane: anyway, this is wrt M12N, not these specs; next week's problem
Subtopic: ISSUE 21: @profile
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/bjoern-issues.html#ISSUE20
Shane: If this is a problem, it
is a problem with M12N
... but M12n says it is a space-separated list of URIs
... but the implementation is broken, so needs fixing
... but these are not in TR space
<scribe> ACTION: Shane to update implementations of @profile, and errata [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/15-xhtml-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-93 - Update implementations of @profile, and errata [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-07-22].
Steven: So this is fixed
Subtopic: ISSUE 22: bdo lacks event attributes
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/bjoern-issues.html#ISSUE21
(sorry that the URIs don't match the topic; automatic numbering took the first wor of the heading and appended a number, starting at 0)
Shane: HTML4 never had these
Steven: He never sent this to us! This is something he sent to www-archive in 2005
Shane: In the previous version of XHTML 1.1 bd odidn't take the events either
<ShaneM> ACTION: Shane add @lang to bdo for xhtml 1.1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/15-xhtml-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-94 - Add @lang to bdo for xhtml 1.1 [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-07-22].
bdo /bdo /
Steven: Nothing to do then
Subtopic: ISSUE 23: No @version in XHTML Basic
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/bjoern-issues.html#ISSUE22
<Tina> Does XHTML Basic /need/ a @version for any particular reason?
Steven: It is in HTML4, but deprecated
Shane: It is not in XHTML1
<Tina> (Rationale: since XHTML Basic require a DOCTYPE, is there any version information in @version that add anything for document authors or users?)
Steven: Probably should have been
Shane: But we're not revving XHTML 1.0, right
Steven: Right
... We reinstated version because DOCTYPEs were being made
optional
... so we agreed to allow version
<alessio> right
Steven: in the Basic and Print we
require the DOCTYPE
... Print and Basic are both for devices,and the owners of that
space didn't ask us to add version
Shane: Perhaps not, but version is in the implementation, just not in the prose
<ShaneM> ACTION: Shane add @version information to XHTML Basic 1.1 PER similar to XHTML 1.1... maybe XHTML Print alsoThe start tag SHOULD contain a version attribute that declares the version of XHTML in use. The version of this version of XHTML is -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/15-xhtml-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-95 - Add @version information to XHTML Basic 1.1 PER similar to XHTML 1.1... maybe XHTML Print alsoThe start tag SHOULD contain a version attribute that declares the version of XHTML in use. The version of this version of XHTML is -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN. [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-07-22].
Steven: Let's make it a may
Shane: Agree
Alessio: Yes
<ShaneM> Change SHOULD to MAY for @version ... incorporate into XHTML Basic, XHTML Print, and XHTML 1.1. Don't mention in XHTML 1.0 unless we are going to rev it
\Steven: We have another 4 issues
Steven: I have to go I'm afraid
[ADJOURN]
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