13:40:12 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
13:40:12 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/07/15-xhtml-irc
13:40:14 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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13:40:16 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2
13:40:16 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
13:40:17 <trackbot> Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference
13:40:17 <trackbot> Date: 15 July 2009
13:40:48 <Tina> I am present on IRC for now; there is noise in the office.
13:46:23 <Steven> ok
13:47:19 <alessio> alessio has joined #xhtml
13:47:50 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
13:47:50 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has not yet started, Steven
13:47:51 <Zakim> On IRC I see alessio, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, Tina, MoZ, trackbot
13:48:21 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jul/0012
13:48:37 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jul/0012
13:49:38 <Steven> Regrets: Markus
13:50:28 <Steven> Present: Steven, MoZ(remote), TIne(Remote), Shane
13:50:54 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
13:50:54 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:50:55 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started
13:50:56 <Zakim> +Steven
13:51:20 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #xhtml
13:51:24 <Steven> s/TIne/Tina/
13:51:38 <Steven> Present+Alessio
13:51:58 <Zakim> +??P19
13:52:18 <Steven> zakim, ??P19 is Alessio
13:52:18 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it
13:52:19 <alessio> zakim, ??P19 ia Alessio
13:52:19 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P19 ia Alessio', alessio
13:53:46 <Zakim> +McCarron
13:54:12 <Steven> Topic: Chairing
13:54:30 <Steven> Steven: Markus has agreed to co-chair for the rest of the year
13:54:50 <Steven> Topic: Summer Period
13:55:00 <Steven> Steven: I am away for three weeks, Markus too
13:55:09 <Steven> Shane: [laughs]
13:55:21 <Steven> Steven: Feel free to meet to get things done
13:55:47 <Tina> I will be gone between the 15th and 22nd of August. However, due to somewhat expected family problems I may be sending more regrets than normal.
13:55:55 <Steven> Topic: Issues
13:56:12 <Steven> Subtopic: ISSUE 17: DTD doesn't allow @lang
13:56:28 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/bjoern-issues.html#ISSUE16
13:56:32 <Steven> SHANE: fIXED
13:56:41 <Steven> Ss/SHANE/Shane/
13:56:49 <Steven> s/fIXED/Fixed/
13:57:22 <Steven> Shane: It's telling that he can't be polite about this sort of thing
13:57:54 <Steven> Subtopic: No implementation report
13:57:56 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/bjoern-issues.html#ISSUE17
13:58:05 <Steven> Shane: DO we need an implementation report for a PER
13:58:07 <Steven> Steven: No
13:58:18 <Steven> Shane: Then what am I missing?
13:58:22 <Steven> Scribe: Steven
13:58:49 <Steven> Shane: THere is a second part to this issue
13:58:57 <Steven> Steven: Oh, I should have split it off,sorry
13:59:08 <Steven> s/TH/Th/
13:59:25 <Steven> Shane: He says that XHTML 1.1 requires to be ...
13:59:34 <Steven> ... not true, it says "SHOULD"
13:59:42 <ShaneM> XHTML 1.1 documents SHOULD be labeled with the Internet Media Type "application/xhtml+xml" as defined in [RFC3236]. For further information on using media types with XHTML, see the informative note [XHTMLMIME].
13:59:47 <Steven> Steven: Then fine
14:00:20 <Tina> Worth noting, perhaps, that RFC 'SHOULD' doesn't mean "absolutely have to". Never did.
14:00:49 <ShaneM> previous REC is at http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/REC-xhtml11-20010531/
14:01:49 <Steven> Shane: In the previous rec, we didn't say anything on this topic
14:02:43 <ShaneM> an editors draft at: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml11-20090106/conformance.html#strict
14:02:53 <Steven> Shane: DO we mention it in M12N?
14:02:57 <Steven> Shane: Definitely not
14:04:40 <Steven> ... M12N does not define a document type
14:04:45 <Steven> s/DO/Do/
14:05:02 <Steven> Shane: XHTML+RDFa also says SHOULD on the media type
14:06:05 <Steven> So the conclusion on issue 18.2 is that he is just wrong
14:06:12 <Steven> S/So/Steven: So/
14:06:17 <Steven> Shane: Yes
14:06:38 <Steven> Subtopic: ISSUE 19: Empty string in @lang
14:06:45 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/bjoern-issues.html#ISSUE18
14:06:58 <Steven> Shane: Don't understand this; he's talking about XHTML 1.0
14:07:09 <Steven> ... and also 1.1
14:07:42 <Steven> Shane: HTML 4.0 does not permit an empty lang attribute
14:07:47 <Steven> s/.0//
14:08:08 <Steven> ... apparently xml:lang does
14:08:40 <Steven> Steven: Have we ever had a request for this change?
14:08:43 <Steven> Shane: No
14:09:11 <Steven> Steven: What does I18N say?
14:09:24 <Steven> Shane: I'm sure they support an empty value,for turning off the lang
14:10:23 <Steven> ... I don't see how we can make that change
14:10:40 <Steven> ... which means that lang and xml:lang are not the same
14:11:15 <Steven> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/2007-10-26/multipage/section-global.html
14:11:24 <Steven> Steven: HTML5 has changed this
14:11:49 <Steven> Shane: I don't think they can do that
14:12:20 <Steven> ... because in XML says that xml:lang says something else
14:12:29 <ShaneM> In particular, the empty value of xml:lang    is used on an element B to override a specification of xml:lang on an    enclosing element A, without specifying another language.  Within B, it is considered    that there is no language information available, just as if xml:lang had    not been specified on B or any of its ancestors.
14:13:15 <ShaneM> rationale:  When embedding an XML fragment within a document (such as wrapping a payload inside a   SOAP envelope), it is necessary to be able to specify that language information specified   higher up in the element tree doesn't apply in the fragment, i.e. to break the inheritance   chain without specifying a new language.    Note that the empty string is different from the RFC 3066 tag "und" 	 (undetermined). The latter is used "if the language associated with 
14:14:05 <Steven> Shane: Interesting rationale
14:14:18 <ShaneM> When embedding an XML fragment within a document (such as wrapping a payload inside a   SOAP envelope), it is necessary to be able to specify that language information specified   higher up in the element tree doesn't apply in the fragment, i.e. to break the inheritance   chain without specifying a new language.    Note that the empty string is different from the RFC 3066 tag "und" 	 (undetermined). The latter is used "if the language associated with an 	 item ca
14:14:32 <ShaneM> an 	 item cannot be determined" or "for works having textual content 	 consisting of arbitrary syllables, humming or other human-produced 	 sounds for which a language cannot be specified." (from MARC Code 	 List for Languages).  The former (empty string) may be used whenever 	 language codes are not applicable, such as for "instrumental or 	 electronic music; sound recordings consisting of 	 nonverbal sounds; audiovisual materials with no narration, printed titl
14:15:09 <Steven> Steven: For a PER can we make this change?
14:15:23 <Steven> ... I think yes
14:15:30 <alessio> +1
14:15:52 <Steven> Shane: My point is "what should UAs expect"
14:16:03 <Steven> s/expect/expect?/
14:16:10 <Steven> Shane: Means a change to M12N
14:16:36 <Steven> Steven: We've never been asked to make this change
14:16:49 <Steven> ... we were asked to add lang from HTML4, but not with the empty value
14:17:07 <Steven> Shane: M12N doesn't have lang!
14:18:15 <Steven> Steven: XML spec has type CDATA
14:18:27 <Steven> ... what do we have for xml:lang, and lang?
14:19:16 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/PER-xhtml11-20090507/xhtml11.html#s_doctype
14:20:51 <Steven> Shane: In the DTD we have LanguageCode.datatype
14:21:03 <Steven> ... which is CDATA, so the DTD allows it to be empty
14:21:47 <Steven> Steven: So are we OK on this issue?
14:21:57 <alessio> yes
14:22:07 <Steven> Shane: I think so
14:22:35 <Steven> Steven: Let's just point out that lang and xml:lang accept the same values, and the definition of what lang means is taken from HTML4
14:23:00 <Steven> ... but that lang *is* allowed to be empty
14:23:25 <Steven> Subtopic: ISSUE 20(?): Inheritance from M12N
14:23:36 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/bjoern-issues.html#ISSUE19
14:24:28 <Steven> Shane: Is there an issue
14:24:42 <Steven> Steven: That's why I put a question mark; I wasn't sure
14:24:51 <Steven> s/issue/issue?/
14:26:04 <Steven> hane: He doesn't have a reference to the "two dozen issues",so I don't know what he's talking about. But anyway, that's about M12N
14:26:23 <Steven> ... but he's wrong, there was no reason why M12N 1.1 couldn't have been a PER
14:26:48 <alessio> in fact, I don't see the problem
14:27:01 <Steven> ... anyway, this is wrt M12N, not these specs; next week's problem
14:27:21 <Steven> Subtopic: ISSUE 21: @profile
14:27:29 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/bjoern-issues.html#ISSUE20
14:27:41 <Steven> Shane: If this is a problem, it is a problem with M12N
14:27:56 <Steven> ... but M12n says it is a space-separated list of URIs
14:28:45 <Steven> ... but the implementation is broken, so needs fixing
14:29:14 <Steven> ... but these are not in TR space
14:29:33 <Steven> ACTION: Shane to update implementations of @profile, and errata
14:29:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-93 - Update implementations of @profile, and errata [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-07-22].
14:29:44 <Steven> Steven: So this is fixed
14:30:17 <Steven> Subtopic: ISSUE 22: bdo lacks event attributes
14:30:27 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/bjoern-issues.html#ISSUE21
14:31:10 <Steven> (sorry that the URIs don't match the topic; automatic numbering took the first wor of the heading and appended a number, starting at 0)
14:31:50 <Steven> Shane: HTML4 never had these
14:33:30 <Steven> Steven: He never sent this to us! This is something he sent to www-archive in 2005
14:34:15 <Steven> Shane: In the previous version of XHTML 1.1 bd odidn't take the events either
14:34:48 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane add @lang to bdo for xhtml 1.1
14:34:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-94 - Add @lang to bdo for xhtml 1.1 [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-07-22].
14:34:59 <Steven> bd o/bdo /
14:35:12 <Steven> s/bd o/bdo /
14:35:33 <Steven> Steven: Nothjing to do then
14:35:36 <Steven> s/j//
14:36:12 <Steven> Subtopic: ISSUE 23: No @version in XHTML Basic
14:36:20 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/bjoern-issues.html#ISSUE22
14:37:19 <Tina> Does XHTML Basic /need/ a @version for any particular reason?
14:38:02 <Steven> Steven: It is in HTML4, but deprecated
14:38:11 <Steven> Shane: It is not in XHTML1
14:38:18 <Tina> (Rationale: since XHTML Basic require a DOCTYPE, is there any version information in @version that add anything for document authors or users?)
14:38:20 <Steven> Steven: Probably should have been
14:39:50 <Steven> Shane: But we're not revving XHTML 1.0, right
14:39:54 <Steven> Steven: Right
14:40:59 <Steven> Steven: We reinstated version because DOCTYPEs were being made optional
14:41:06 <Steven> ... so we agreed to allow version
14:41:08 <alessio> right
14:41:21 <Steven> ... in the Basic and Print we require the DTD
14:41:30 <Steven> s/DTD/DOCTYPE/
14:42:47 <Steven> Steven: Print and Basic are noth for devices,and the owners of that space didn't ask us to add version
14:42:54 <Steven> s/noth/both/
14:43:24 <Steven> Shane: Perhaps not, but version is in the implementation, just not in the prose
14:43:32 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane add @version information to XHTML Basic 1.1 PER similar to XHTML 1.1... maybe XHTML Print alsoThe start tag SHOULD contain a version attribute that declares the version of XHTML in use. The version of this version of XHTML is -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN.
14:43:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-95 - Add @version information to XHTML Basic 1.1 PER similar to XHTML 1.1... maybe XHTML Print alsoThe start tag SHOULD contain a version attribute that declares the version of XHTML in use. The version of this version of XHTML is -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN. [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-07-22].
14:44:48 <Steven> Steven: Let's make it a may
14:44:51 <Steven> Shane: Agree
14:44:58 <Steven> Alessio: Yes
14:45:07 <ShaneM> Change SHOULD to MAY for @version ... incorporate into XHTML Basic, XHTML Print, and XHTML 1.1.  Don't mention in XHTML 1.0 unless we are going to rev it
14:45:27 <Steven> Topic: Adjourn
14:45:32 <Steven> \Steven: We have another 4 issues
14:45:40 <Zakim> -McCarron
14:45:41 <Steven> Steven: I have to go I'm afraid
14:45:52 <Zakim> -Steven
14:45:52 <Steven> [ADJOURN]
14:45:54 <Zakim> -Alessio
14:45:56 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended
14:45:57 <Zakim> Attendees were Steven, Alessio, McCarron
14:45:58 <ShaneM> zakim, McCarron was ShaneM
14:45:58 <Zakim> I don't understand 'McCarron was ShaneM', ShaneM
14:46:04 <ShaneM> zakim, McCarron is ShaneM
14:46:04 <Zakim> sorry, ShaneM, I do not recognize a party named 'McCarron'
14:46:06 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
14:46:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/15-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
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