SWXG Weekly Telecon

17 Jun 2009


See also: IRC log


+1.314.683.aaaa, DKA, pchampin, tpa, Phil_Archer, tinkster, +1.510.931.aacc, oshani, AlexKorth, +4222aadd, cperey, +03491549aaee, jsalvachua, +0797094aaff, claudiov, +, Carine, MacTed, FabGandon, karl, danbri, hhalpin
Dan Appelquist, Dan Brickley & Harry Halpin (yes, all 3)




<rreck> i didnt see my self join when i called in

<rreck> where are the calling in messages?

<bblfish> hello

<tinkster> danbri has sent regrets and neither of our other chairs seem to have turned up yet.

<rreck> i saw harry online earlier

<rreck> its a he

<yuk> +yuk

<scribe> scribe: PhilA

<scribe> scribeNick:PhilA

<AlexKorth> pchampin, indeed :)

<tpa> yup, still not working

Context: DKA in an airport lounge, Harry should be joining soon

Discussion on Context

DKA: Wasnt to jump staright in to the discussion on context
... Claudio - you and I have been most vociferous on this topic
... so can we kick off this privacy nad context TF
... so are you able to take a leadership role?

Claudio: In principle it would be nice
... but like everyone, I have several engagements
... but it's difficult to understand how the TF relates to the rest of the group. If Telecom Italia has some goals that it thinks are crucial?
... I need to process my first proposal and see what the discussion leads to

DKA: You've fallen into my trap :-)
... Can you take your original proposal; and subsequent discussion and formulate that as a TF charter?
... The XG needs to agree on the context charter so that the TF's work can be defined

Claudio: Again, nothing against creating that document but it would be useful to get some more comments
... I want to be usre that we're progressing in a way that makes sense
... (to the group)

<cperey> also there is the question of whether the Task Force will cover privacy

Claudio: is it in scope to specify APIs for instance? Are we to create a vocabulary? Is it reasonable to achive those goals?

<bblfish> perhaps we need examples of contexts, use cases make sense

DKA: Can you point us to an initial e-mail and thtead?
... I think the group needs a summary to look at

<tinkster> Current deliverables <http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Context_TF#Deliverables> look good and achievable to me.

Cl;audio: There's a pointer on the scoail web wiki page

<cperey> is this is a Task Force for Context + Privacy? or is there Task Force for Context and another Task Force for Privacy/Security

Claudio: the link says sometehing like "this is an initial scope that the TF might do"

<tinkster> Claudio's scoping message - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2009Jun/0020.html

DKA: SO my initial feedback would be that the soecification of APIs is probably out of scope but a selection of existing APIs would be in scope

<bblfish> what is context? It seems incredibly general.

<mattroweshow> bblfish+1

<pchampin> bblfish+1

DKA: So that fits in with the ethos of an XG - not to develop new technologies - more how to use exsting tech

<bblfish> is it just another way to speak about named graphs?

DKA: But I definitely agree that a catalogue of different social contexts is useful
... a vocab and privacy model would then flow from that
... I just have a problem with the spec of an API

Claudio: The only info I have on this is the term context. It may be huge and include a lot of things
... then it's really related to some concept of an activity that a user may be performing at a given time

<mattroweshow> context is abstract, specialisations need to be defined

Claudio: this is like an extended version of the presence info

<tinkster> bblfish, my definition of context is up-to-the-minute profile info - i.e., not foaf:based_near, but where is the person right now; what devices are they currently using; are they asleep, so not to be disturbed; what music are they listening to...

Claudio: I can give more info about my context that might be useful to people I'm connected to

<bblfish> ah ok. Don't call me, I am asleep.

<cperey> context could also include "I'm in a call

<bblfish> There was an ontology for what I am doing now

Claudio: the user may be working, playing, travelling etc.

<mattroweshow> so context embodies the current status also

Claudio: we have a few use cases that may point to exploitation possibilitie4s
... maybe something like 50% of your friends on a train, one walking, one shopping etc
... these fit in with our definition of the term 'context'

<AlexKorth> totally useful but for me subdomain of privacy

<bblfish> ok, yes, makes sense

<bblfish> it would be easy to build a vocab like that

DKA: Thanks for that

<mattroweshow> Really good explanation of context

<AlexKorth> vocab could be similar to activitystrea.ms

[ASIDE]: Discussion of who will chair now that DKA has to board a plane. Dan Bri takes over...

<scribe> chair: Dan_Appelquist

<scribe> chair: Dan_Brickley

<rreck> i define context based on groundings

<rreck> in time and space

<bblfish> ok I have it http://crschmidt.net/foaf/menow/

<danbri> can someone make an attempt at writing down what daniela said?

<cperey> should the definition include a social element?

Claudio: Having heard DKA's summary I think yes, that's good. I think we're close to a definition of context

<bblfish> the definition of context is very prgamatic.

Danbri: I'm afraid I can in half way through
... my instinct is to get started withthe work as we atre an XG not a WG

DKA: We can't keep messing around talking about what we're going to talk about

??: Even if defining an API is out of scope, I guess it's not out of scope to recommend that someone should?

<bblfish> here is another ontology: http://www.milanstankovic.org/opo/ontology.html

<hajons> Håkan = hajons

DKA: Surely we should be working out where the gaps are and who should fill them


<bblfish> that is the "Online Presence Ontology"

<scribe> ACTION: PhilA to work with Claudio on taking the context discussion to a proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/17-swxg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - PhilA

<tinkster> We skipped item 1 and have done item 2 now.

<scribe> ACTION:Phil_Archer to work with Clausio to take context discussion to a TF proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/17-swxg-minutes.html#action02]

<tpa> Zakime, take up agendum 3

General Organization and Task Forces

DanBri: Just sorting out who is a TF leader

<danbri> 3. Task Forces

<danbri> + Do we have confirmed leaders for Context and Privacy Task

<danbri> Force (Karl Dubost)?

<danbri> is that 1 or 2, ...etc

<danbri> (who said "hi"?)

DKA: I think that Claudio and PhilA need to put toegther a more fleshed out TF goal in the wiki

<danbri> daniela: claudio and phil will work on a fleshed-out scope in wiki, then if Claudio's happy with goals he is happy to be named on tf leader

DKA: that doen, he, Claudio, might then be TF leader

.,.. the though thing is getting consensus on the TF scope

DanBri: did we have a leader on protability?

PeteFern: I think I was up for that

<danbri> For Portability and Architectures Task Force (@@)?

<karl> trackbot, comment ACTION-35 seny a message to Evan about joining the July 1st call. No answer yet. Will followup in 2 days in no answer.

<trackbot> ACTION-35 Follow up with Evan, see if July 1st date to talk about microblogging works. notes added

<mischat> via harry's last email : Context Ontology : http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-dcontology-20090616/

??: I was trying to update the wiki for portability and architecture

<danbri> OK, Pete + ?? (missed name)

danbri: is the wiki update going OK? Is it working?

<tinkster> joachim salvachua

<danbri> "Has Joaquin found scoping to be better for

<danbri> portability? Can we have two leaders per task force? Do we

<danbri> have critical mass, and if so, can we get telecon times for

<danbri> them?"

Joachim: I don't know if we have critical mass for this

<danbri> (can someone post wiki pointer?)

Joachim: we are trying to organise a call

<mattroweshow> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Portability_Architecture_TF

Joachim: or an IRC meeting?
... we can discuss the differnet tasks and see how we can organise portabuility and architecture

danbri: so could you take an actionm to do that?

Joachim: yes

<scribe> ACTION: Joachim to organise a meeting to discuss the scope of the portability and architecture TF [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/17-swxg-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Joachim

<danbri> trackbot, help

<trackbot> See http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

<tinkster> trackbot, status

<scribe> ACTION: jsalvachua to organise meeteing to discuss scope of portability and architecture TF [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/17-swxg-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - jsalvachua

<caribou> user is joaquin

<scribe> ACTION: joaquin to organise meeteing to discuss scope of portability and architecture TF [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/17-swxg-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-40 - Organise meeteing to discuss scope of portability and architecture TF [on joaquin Salvachua - due 2009-06-24].

danbri: Dan A where are we up to wrt invited guests?

Invited Guests

DKA: I think we need more inter-chair coordination

<tinkster> Do we need a chairing list like the scribes list?

DKA: my whole last week has been taken up with W3C working group meetings and strange Greek visitors
... Informally, the invited guests I've had most feedback on is this guy, Evan from the microblogging community

<danbri> ACTION: danbri invite Evan P. of identi.ca to a call [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/17-swxg-minutes.html#action06]

danbri to line up Evan as guest speaker

<scribe> ACTION: danbri to line up Evan as guest speaker [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/17-swxg-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-41 - Line up Evan as guest speaker [on Dan Brickley - due 2009-06-24].

??: I had an action item to work with Harry to invite Nathan Eagle as a guest speaker

Creating User Stories on the Wiki

<bblfish> cool

<bblfish> I added a few 1-5 user stories

<bblfish> Would like some feedback

<hajons> ?? = hajons = Håkan

There's some stuff about take down on the wiki

<danbri> close 2x danbri actions

<karl> danbri, :) action-41 and action-35 are the same no?

<danbri> continue oshani

Oshani: Hi, yes, I didn't write it formally but I will do

<danbri> (similar, karl. similar ;)

Oshani: so you want me to write it based on the current template?
... (the one Karl sent out)

danbri: That would be ideal but we're not fussy

<danbri> phil "i have a couple ... need to check not already done ... can add in next 48 hours...

<danbri> "things around safety, people for whom their online id is their real id ...

<danbri> "also people avoiding certain harmful ppl

<tinkster> More user stories: danbri, maybe your provenance of microblogs question could be added - tracing back forwarded messages.

<mattroweshow> interesting interpretation of online existence

danbri: Harry brought up the Iram situation - can that ne a uc?

tpa: I wanted to talk a little about cleaning up some of the ones already there

<danbri> tinkster, care to attempt that writeup?

<tinkster> yes, sure.

<danbri> thx. can you action yourself?

tpa: I'm about to throw a third template into the system. What are the plans for the user stories?

<tinkster> ACTION Toby to document danbri's microblogging provenance question as a user story.

<trackbot> Created ACTION-42 - Document danbri's microblogging provenance question as a user story. [on Toby Inkster - due 2009-06-24].

tpa: is it going to be a running thing? Will it be locked at some point? What is the expected use of the edited version?

<bblfish> I think we add stories during the life of the XG, but as we go on they will settle

danbri: The primary deliverable from this group is the report. That said, the repository of use cases is going to be useul for everyone to see what tech needs to address

karL: I think the user stories can be used when we're writing the formal spec - use them to define what we want to write about

<Zakim> karl, you wanted to talk about the user stories

Tim: I'm going to try nad converge the different things into one
... I don't expect too much of a change from what Karl's template did

scribe notes that I think the previous 'tpa' accreditation was probably wrong

Tim: I've already seen some repitition. I've recommended that we use character names with first names from the alphabet
... I think if I create different characters, that might generate new cases.

danbri: Endorse the point about covering people from differnet backgrounds

<bblfish> +1 good idea with multiple backgrounds

<danbri> ACTION: danbri write up orkut/i18n/"looking for" issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/17-swxg-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-43 - Write up orkut/i18n/"looking for" issue [on Dan Brickley - due 2009-06-24].

<tinkster> Good cast of characters to start with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_and_Bob

TIm: What would be nice would be that any story arriving after next week did so using the template

<danbri> cf http://www.w3.org/WAI/redesign/personas

danbri: do you need a new action item for this?

Tim: no

danbri: Harry, you're here?

<danbri> hhalpin, will you join us?

oshani: I'm confused about the final deliverable of the privacy TF?
... I'd like it to be more specific
... I've not seen any e-mails on this. What is the privacy landscape? (please;-) )

<bblfish> I think it is just some idea of what kinds of privacy solutions are out there

danbri: landscape is one of those words that means please describe everything? �!

Karl: Like Oshani, I'm worried that the scope is not clear
... it's why I was trying to make sure that the user stories would define a tighter scope
... maybe I could discuss this with Oshani by mail

<AlexKorth> macted must be noisy?

<danbri> (it was karl i think)

oshani: from my POV, context is as aspect of privacy so moving it out makes it difficult for me

danbri: is this something that we can solve by redirection?
... we look at XMPP< microformats, open social etc/.

<AlexKorth> oshani: context subtask of privacy +1. on the other hand it makes sence to chop tasks down to subtasks

danbri: they'll say different things and it might give us a first pass on how they all cover this

<bblfish> stuff like SOAP has privacy too or something

<bblfish> what is privacy in real life?

Social Network Matrix

<danbri> some fix topic!!

<cperey> I think we have achieved the first level goal

<cperey> generated in multiple ways

HH: How I was envisioning the social matrix was a list of X sites, ideally geographically dispersed with some view on usage

<hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/TopSocialNetworkingSites

HH: how they implemented context, privacy and portability

<bblfish> the paper sent to the mailing list this week was very helpful

<AlexKorth> the one of sören preibusch, yes!

HH: Once the use case doc has some functionality like single log in, multiple groups, multiple privacy, dynamic context, then we can go through these different sites and see how they match up

<bblfish> yes

<cperey> the paper sent was very helpful, but doesn't cover mobile social networks

HH: I was going to suggest we asked Sorin or his co-author to discuss at the next telecon how they would take their data and merge it into our deliverable

<hhalpin> Social Network matrix

<AlexKorth> paper pointer: http://preibusch.de/publications/social_networks/privacy_jungle_dataset.htm

HH: the overview deliverable will be on future direction of W3C

<danbri> tpa, i wanted to grab harry while he was there re 6. but sorry should've wrapped up User Stories first

HH: but a technical deliverable would list some of the details

<bblfish> sounds good +1

HH: I'm just proposing that Sorin and I exchange matrices and look over each other's

<bblfish> is mobile social netowrks, social networks on mobile devices ?

<danbri> (re 6, ... continue all actions)

These are large actions - Karl making a matrix is a big job

<cperey> agreed

<cperey> continued

HH: And there's a lot for me and Christine to do - they ain't going to be done by next week

<tpa> No I'm good

<danbri> tpa? anything more re user stories?

danbri: any more to say onuser stories?
... we should begin to wrap up

<cperey> mobile social networks = social networks which are by-design for mobile device users

<AlexKorth> mobile context-related privacy can only be covered be investigating mobile SNS

propsed resolution: accept http://www.w3.org/2009/05/20-swxg-minutes.html as last week's minutes

proposed resolution: accept http://www.w3.org/2009/05/20-swxg-minutes.html as last week's minutes

<AlexKorth> sure

<cperey> maybe do that on mailing list

<oshani> hhalpin, yes

<hhalpin> Quick question - should we have Soren's Preibusch.

<hhalpin> 's paper to discuss?

<tinkster> I'm happy to accept last week's minutes.

<AlexKorth> hhalpin, good idea

<hhalpin> I think Evan said he was available on July 1st?

resolution: accept http://www.w3.org/2009/05/20-swxg-minutes.html as last week's minutes

<bblfish> +1

<cperey> I +1

<MacTed> +1

danbri: meeting adjourned

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: danbri invite Evan P. of identi.ca to a call [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/17-swxg-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: danbri write up orkut/i18n/"looking for" issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/17-swxg-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: joaquin to organise meeteing to discuss scope of portability and architecture TF [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/17-swxg-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: PhilA to work with Claudio on taking the context discussion to a proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/17-swxg-minutes.html#action01]