Shawn: The first topic is WAI-Slide set. Andrew would you give us reminder of where we are with the WAI Slides?
Andrew: Been quite a while since EO has looked at these. There was quite a bit of discussion of the flow within the slides. We reduced the number of demographic slides and rearranged them around the prevalence of various impairments. Now the flow is quite a bit different, and we'd like to discuss the overall changes.
Sharron: I thought the overall flow has much improved since the last time we looked at it.
Yeliz: I quite like the flow.
Andrew: In reducing the number of demographic slides, we have gone for bigger pictures slides. An individual presenter can show the slides taht are relevant to the part of the world where the speaker is from or talking to. The demographic slides have a small table and a bar graph that present the same information in two different formats for those who process information differently. Is it too busy? There are two options for how the bar graph is constucted. One shows two bars side by side of the numbers of people over 80 and those over 60. The other shows the over 80 population in another color but right on top of the over 60 bar. So first, does it work to have both a table and a graph on the slide?
Heather: I am looking at the global demographic changes. Doesn't over 60 also include over 80. couldn't you be more specific? Where does it end?
Shawn: The heading in the table and the headings in the chart are not the same.
Andrew: The table is correct in referencing 60 and older and 80 is a subset of the older. We need to think about presenting it clearly.
Shawn: Put an action item to clarify that? Andrew?
<Andrew> ACTION: Andrew - slides - clarify headings for UN demog slide (table vs graph) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/12-eo-minutes.html#action01]
Shawn: And if the headings are matched, does it work to have the table and graph on each slide?
Heather: I think so.
Sharron: And the fact that people process information differently is a good reason to have it so.
Heather: You can have visual
overload, but there seems to be a good balance here.
... perhaps make larger?
Andrew: It depends on screen resolution. For some presentations it is too big.
Yeliz: My only comment is would be good to present the same data in the same order. The table and graph appear to present different data.
Shawn: And it would be good to have the exact same title on each.
Yeliz: Some people might feel the two formats are actually presenting different data.
Shawn: Please take an action, Andrew to further clarify as the same data, with the same heading.
Andrew: OK I'll clarify.
Shawn: Go ahead and say what you want us to look at.
Andrew: The graph and table match are exactly same heading. Is that good?
Shawn: But they still look different due to font size and style. If you had the heading above the chart and the table that matched.
Andrew: we do.
Shawn: It looks different, different fonts, and size. If you had the exact same text above the charts.
Shawn: If it is in the HTML.
Andrew: Then they might not know what the image is about.
Shawn: It needs to be clear that it is the same data. Put that in as an action.
<Andrew> ACTION: Andrew - slides - make sure UN slides table and graph have the same heading [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/12-eo-minutes.html#action02]
<Andrew> ACTION: Andrew - slides - make sure EU slides table and graph have the same heading style (and in text) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/12-eo-minutes.html#action03]
Yeliz: I think the way not the second one. I quite like the way as two separate bars, but that is a personal choice.
Sharron: I like the one stacked bar with two colors, Personal preference for clutters the page a little less.
Yeliz: Yes, the first one is less cluttered. But it is also harder to see and read compared to the two bars.
Shawn: Andrew with the European situation have 65 first and then 80.
Andrew: right make the
... I have two different drafts.
Shawn: Two different tables: in one the data is stacked and and in the other there are two bars. One preference for the two bars to match the table, and one for the one bar because it is simpler. Other preferences?
Liam: I prefer the two bars. Because the stack says 65 and 80 but that is not quite what we are referring to here.
Helle: I think the same.
Sharron: I don't want to argue strongly for one bar. I agree to the majority.
Shadi: First of all the two bars. I proposed the stack one but now I see that two bars is much better. Revise the percentages on the left? Like we have 0 5 and 15 percent and so on. Maybe make 10 20 30?
Sharron; I don't understand?
Shawn: on the left Shadi thinks we can use fewer numbers.
Wayne: We provide the exact number anyway right?
Andrew: Take the lines out that would match it.
Sharron: That works.
Helle: What do you mean by saying the exact same numbers?
Shawn: The table is presented along with it.
Helle: Keep both of them?
Shawn: We seem to be leaning toward having two bars and maybe fewer numbers on the vertical axis. Fewer lines as well. Swap the location of the bars to match the table?
Andrew: Yes, any comments on the order of presentation?
Liam: Table columns should match the graph.
Andrew: Along with the high one.
Liam: I like your idea.
Shawn: Clarify Andrew?
Andrew: It is currently presented with 65 years on the left column of the table and 80 to the right of that. On the graph, 80 is to the left. In the graph it seemed sensible but when side-by-side with the table, it conflicts.
<Andrew> ACTION: Andrew - slides - reduce the ticks on the vertical axis (EU) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/12-eo-minutes.html#action04]
Liam: I think it is all right not to be in the
... I like as is.
Shawn: If we look at the European situation. An earlier request to match the columns. Now one likes as is. Not matched. Thoughts?
Yeliz: I like this very much.
Heather: I agree for consistency.
Andrew: I would change the table.
Heather: I would change the graph. Older first, leave the text but change the graphic image.
Liam: in terms of numerical 85 comes first, but when you say 85 is ...and 65 is 29% feels better.
Shadi: I agree with Liam, ok to swap order to make the point.
Shawn: We are talking about what is logical. 65 first and emphasizing 65. Unbolding everything except the 65 column and then it would really stand out. Focus on the 65 but gives all.
Liam: And can we color to match the bars of the graph?
Shawn: Pale blue in one and pale
orange in the other. How about this summary? The current
recommendation for disucssion is 65 first and then 80, and in
the table the only stuff bolded is the 65 column and have a
similar color as in the chart. Current proposal for
... Like it don't like? Other ideas.
Liam: Like it.
<Yeliz> I like it as well
Wayne: I almost need to look at it, but sounds reasonable.
Andrew: Sounds good to me.
Shawn: Let's get that into the change log.
Andrew: We agree to bold 65 and not the column headings. I don't like not bolding column and row headings.
sharron: Bolding the columns across but not having the years bolded would work. I know what you mean by not bolding headings. That could be visual confusing.
<Andrew> ACTION: Andrew - slides - add a pale wash behind data cols to match graph [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/12-eo-minutes.html#action05]
Wayne: Could put 65 and over in the right column because it is the total. People would realize the numbers get bigger when you go left to right.
Shawn: How about if we try the current proposal and see what that looks like?
Andrew: Row headings?
Shawn: Don't have to bold.
Wayne: I think that is good.
Shawn: To bold the 65 years column Andrew?
Andrew: Yes, I put that in.
<Andrew> ACTION: Andrew - slides - unbold years (keep as row head) and bold 65+ data col [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/12-eo-minutes.html#action06]
Shawn: All right. What other things, back to the size, you are saying you made the chart small to fit certain situations. The layout of the slide, the text is a whole lot smaller than the table, and there is a lot of space in between. Could still make it bigger.
Andrew: On my screen they are almost the same size.
Shawn: If I go down in Opera.
Andrew: Could be a point or two larger.
Shawn: There is a whole lot of space in the slide area there is a lot of empty space.
Andrew: I can do that, say 25% bigger?
Andrew: I don't want to go over 25% bigger because then I get overlap.
<Andrew> ACTION: Andrew - slides - graphs 25% larger (and larger text on labels) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/12-eo-minutes.html#action07]
Shawn: We need to look at the mark up because it should flow not overlap. Andrew take an action to look at the markup. Not sure is behaving how we want to behave.
Liam: Text left and image right and they will wrap.
<Andrew> ACTION: Andrew - slides - demog - float table left and graph right to aid reflow [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/12-eo-minutes.html#action08]
Shawn: Anything else on the charts and table and graph?
Andrew: Scroll down a few slides. Where we have aging vision decline. Two parts one describing the impacts and one the prevalence. previouslly we talked about the statiscial data. Shadi suggested keeping all together. Significant change from what they looked like previously. Does this work as a combined slide for EO?
Liam: Which slide?
Andrew: The one headed aging and vision decline.
<Shawn> ACTION: Andrew - slides - fix spacing between lines in "Ageing and cognitive decline" and others [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/12-eo-minutes.html#action09]
Yeliz: I think it is clear.
Liam: But there is no source for the data cited on the slide.
Shawn: Let's talk briefly about that. The slides are for people to look at and the citations for the presentation notes. What are your thoughts? Should every slide have the source added?
Liam: When you are stating data, yes.
Sharron: I don't see the need for all the slides to have a souce citation as long as it is in the notes.
Heather: I agree don't have to have citation on every slide.
Liam: I think it is important that the authority is clear. That someone other than W3C has these facts. It is one way to prevent "I don't believe you," and you head this off at the pass, so the speaker does not have to defend a postion.
<Shawn> ACTION: Andrew - slides - make "Source: UN World Population Prospects" and other sources links quieter (e.g., smaller, gray, italic oe something) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/12-eo-minutes.html#action10]
Shadi: I kind of agree with you on the rationale. But if it is clearly stated in the clearly stated in the notes, it could address your concerns. It would be differencet with a single source presenting in graphical way but this is a summary of information from various sources. The precentage data is from one source, and the impact data from a different one. It was the work of the WAI Age literature review to take all the sources and summarize. So do we really want to but all of those on the slides?
Shawn: Basically we are saying on the first two slides that we reference the sources we used and included them in the notes. Andrew can we put in the speaker's notes to mention something like if you would like the sources for the data, here is a link and provide a link to all the resources. The source for the rest of these statistics is available at this URI.
Shadi: And we could present a section not for presenters. More information is in the literature review. A single sentence.
Heather: Sounds good to do that way.
<Andrew> ACTION: Andrew - slides - 'decline' add speakers note to impact slides to mention key reference and at Literature Review as more extensive souce [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/12-eo-minutes.html#action11]
<Andrew> ACTION: Andrew - slides - add instruction to presenter to link to the online version for people to refer to for refs/sources [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/12-eo-minutes.html#action12]
Wayne: I have a comment. Life long learning is expected rather than simply encouraged. Can we say that and make it more imperative?
Shawn: So lets say older population is increasing and functional decline increases with age. Why is it imperative / important for older users. Pick three points that would make Internet use imperative for older users.
Liam: We want them to be heard.
<Shawn> Liam: want to sell them stuff. ... and it will be you.
Shawn: Three reasons it is important that the web is accessible for older users?
Heather: We will all be older one day.
Shawn: In terms of the day to day.
Wayne: My parents use the web for their cultural activity and social networking. Looking up their old friends.
<Shawn> ... social participation
Shawn: Something about the social web for participation. As you get older it is difficult to get out.
Heather: Yes they will spend time at the computer if they are technically savvy. Retired and use for recreational activities.
Shawn: Andrew do you see what I am getting at? Life long learning doesn't feel strong enough. We need to hit the right points. The flip side is that it is often harder to get out and buy stuff. I am not making a point to stress. The implications are two fold: First, the older population increasing and faculties decline with age, and the second part is how important is the accessible web to older users. And how important users are to web site owners.
<Shawn> ACTION: Andrew - slides - reconsider the point of the "Implications" slides - esp "At the same time" and the bullets following [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/12-eo-minutes.html#action13]
Jack: I agree with everything Shawn. Andrew is talking about the data just presented. You are taking us on to the next consideration about why is the web important for older users. Maybe understanding that is the next step. It seems like some things described make it seem that the Web is nice to have for older users rather than an essential part of life. One way to think is that in some ways use of the web for an older population is perhaps closer to having electricity and running water. It is vital to the quality of the daily life rather than an optional thing.
Shadi:If I understand Jack I agree that there is something missing. The benefits for older people is missing. The slide before about functional limitations. What about the opportunities of the web? Talks about the different uses and the importance of the web and the barriers. We can't take as a given about web accessibility.
Liam: Why it is more usable?
<Shawn> ACTION: Andrew - slides - something is needed before "Web accessibility is an imperative" -- maybe why the web is particularly useful for olders users [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/12-eo-minutes.html#action14]
Shadi: All those aspects like water and electricity. Because of those reduced or functional limitations, some people can't benefit from those opportunities.
Liam: I like that this covers economic power, demographic power.
<LiamMcGee> civic power, economic power, knowledge power all increasing for the older demographic
<Zakim> LiamMcGee, you wanted to ask for evidence to support the statement 'older people are increasingly engaging online'
Wayne: Keep in mind Jack's main point. What does the graphical data imply here? We should be careful about putting things in here beyond the data.
Liam: Although the number of older people is increasing, about one third still don't have an internet connection, and a lot don't use.
Andrew: The older user has gone from 17% up to 29% in UK.
Shawn: Put as a potential for next review. When that is adequate put there for importance.
Liam: Everyone knows this true.
Andrew: I am tempted to put a slide to that effect in but I haven't yet. It is useful in a country specific way, but there is not general data overall.
Shawn: Putting it into the notes is ok, and if presenting in the UK you can make into a slide. Somebody in another country might go and see if that information is available now.
Shadi: It really looks better.
<Andrew> ACTION: Andrew - slides - add speakers notes to implications (or there abouts) with increasing online usage from UK & US (stats) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/12-eo-minutes.html#action15]
<Shawn> ACTION: Andrew - slides - edit "Additional observations", maybe "Observations from the literature review - continued" ? [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/12-eo-minutes.html#action16]
Wayne: I agree that the supporting notes are really helpful.
Shawn: Andrew when do you think you want us to look at this - now or wait for the next revision? What should the group do going forward?
Andrew: A few to take on board now and for confirmation. Have a good look now rather than wait.
Wayne: Significant sight loss? Keep it simple or it may not fit within European definition.
<Shawn> ACTION: Andrew - slides "WAI guidelines" get rid of second level bullets [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/12-eo-minutes.html#action17]
Andrew: partly trying to get data, like the prevalence of near vision decline is almost impossible. The speakers notes are expressed they way they are. You get data on significant impacts, but not on correctable.
Shawn: Andrew has made some edits on this from the last discussion. What do you want to get out of the call today Andrew and Shadi?
Shadi: My understanding would be that we make sure everything is there that needs to be there, and that the overall structure reflects what we mean. I think there have been discussions in the past to expand and provide more explanation. A link to expand the resources. That may be longer term though. For the meeting today let's just make sure all the pieces are in place.
Andrew: We looked through these last week. Most people said that the content is good. I've take a few of the comments on board during the last week. I've rearranged the presentation order ofr improved flow. Today let's consider the bigger picture rather than wordsmithing.
Shawn: we will come back and look at the beginning but will start with the bigger picture and the question of if something is missing. There have been several ideas about titles. We wanted to try on "How to report an inaccessible web site." How does that title work?
Yeliz: I like that title.
Wayne: I do too.
Jack: I like the title.
Liam: I like the title very much.
Shawn: We are looking at the big picture
now and will come back later to the details. In the flow does this
have all the pieces it needs to have? Is it saying the right
... anything missing?
... Are you guys comfortable with that answer Andrew, and Shadi?
Andrew: Before looking at the detail, did we get the right order of things? People have read through, did anyone see something that needs to be in the front or back? A couple of things I felt were in the wrong place I moved. Several paragraphs were moved around because they didn't make sense.
Shawn: Let's take a look at this updated version.
Shadi: Were there any specific trends or rationales when you made those changes? A pattern?
Andrew: No from the discussion from last week. A few bits and pieces seemed to be in the wrong place. I haven't rewritten but on the whole I think it works better. May come back in a month and think why did I write like that?
Shawn: Let's go back up to the introduction.
Yeliz: In the introduction we need to rephrase that to recognize that there are other approaches. Make contacts and clear up where to send web site comments.
Shawn: You could say one approach is.
Andrew: Yes, that is better.
Shawn: Other comments getting
into this. What works or doesn't work now that we see it?
... how about the use of complain?
Liam: I think it is great, really good.
Shawn: If you are going to bring more attention as a draft, what or is there anything in this draft that you would edit now? We have a comment for clarifying that this is one approach but not the only way.
Shadi: I do have some editorial thoughts. In the intro, instead of describe the problem you "have," I would prefer "encounter," and send a "correspondence" rather than "email."
Shawn: As a high priority I agree to make clear that the individual doesn't have a problem it is problem with the web site.
<Shawn> ACTION: Andrew - responding - edit "describe the problem you have" to make it clear that it is not the person's problem, but usually the websites problems [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/12-eo-minutes.html#action18]
Wayne: Yes, it suggests that you don't know
how to use assistive technology
...Should we include a caution not be too mad? When you submit the form, and you want to wring their necks.
Liam: Take a deep and then go on.
Shawn: Take a deep breath and that links up where we talked about web sites are inaccessible. They may not be intending to make the site inaccessible.
Jack: You want them to fix the web site. A better chance for that to happen if you to express fix rather than attack.
Andrew: I put in a sentence about that below the fold.
Wayne: I think that is what I like to see.
Shawn: Andrew have this section that very explicit about what Wayne is saying?
Andrew: Is that our role?
Wayne: Yes we want people to be functional as possible. A real danger is if people send out an antagonizing flame. I know. I did that early on.
Shadi: What about people who don't complain?
Shawn: So there are two different sections needed here. One for hotheads to cool down, and the other for those who don't speak up to be encouraged to do so. Other people don't have to suffer the same frustration. If you say something to help others.
Jack: In terms of the sequence if someone is ready to send a flaming email, they won't surf to this site. When people come to read this, they have calmed down. Maybe we need some more, somebody wants to do a flaming email, this calming effect helps them to be effective.
Shadi: I agree with Jack, if somebody wants to write a flaming email, they wouldn't read this anyway. How to best reach the responsible people. Something about hotheads there?
Wayne: Something about the tone of the letter. A willingness to negotiate.
Shadi: A new section on the best
practices on correspondence. A person who may not be sending it out
themselves. If the page is picked up and redistributed by a local disability organization. The
helpful advice they can continue to convey.
... I advocate for a section called something like tips and advice. Include bullets that give advice as best practices in corrspondence, like one is make sure you tone is good, and another piece is to use your right to voice your problems. This section might not be directly used, not the primary audience, for the secondary audience like trainers or educators. Use for general communications.
Wayne: That is an improvement Shadi. Better than a sentence.
Shadi: Should be shorter blurbs. Enough bullets to list advice and best practices.
Yeliz: Stay calm even if you are angry. Be effective without being aggressive. Second section first before you complain, and if someone comes in very angry, I wonder if the intro doesn't help them to read the document. It makes a difference who will access this page.
Shawn: That is one of the advantages of doing accomodations. Starting here is one issue but even if you care this is a lot to read through. If you keep going further than the intro and the quick tips you get useful information to people who only spend ten minutes. Then link down to more details to get two audiences. The quick hit people and the people who want more.
<Yeliz> I agree
Liam: Good enough for publication right now.
Wayne: I agree reads well.
Sharron: I agree.
Yeliz: I agree.
Wayne: Reads like the sheet they gave you for civil disobedience.
Shawn: William made a comment on
the list related to that. We talked about being able to consider next steps.
... Let's look at if we were to have upfront tips or best practices. What would that be?
... Partly to facilitate a person that only spends five minutes on this. Partly to facilitate the indirect audience like trainers. How to report inaccessible web sites.
Andrew: Would they jump straight to samples and take those?
<Shadi> #1. take a deep breath, #2. make use of your rights, #3. shoot high, #4. document everything, #5. try to be explanatory, #6. help the poor (stupid) developers understand the problems
Shawn: No I would look at the
tips and then the samples. If I'm reading the tips and they are
linked to "more about," I might read that one section. What
would be the tips?
... mention the developers who have problems. Imagine having something like that near the top?
Jack: The one addition I would like to see is one sentence that says something like if you are part of disability organization, keep this handy to give to others.
<Shadi> #7. encourage others to do the same!
Shawn: others on board?
<Yeliz> I like this
<LiamMcGee> Shadi's verbal edit: #2. aim high; #6. have a heart for the poor (stupid) developers
Jack: yes. Get me some information quickly so I know what to do about it.
<LiamMcGee> #7. spread the word?
<Shadi> #8. share this with others
Andrew: share this with others so they know what to do when they have the same problem.
<LiamMcGee> #7. Share the love around?
Shadi: Maybe both encourage others to do the same and share with others.
Shawn: There is an expression, more voices are stronger than one.
Andrew: Or..the squeaky wheel gets the oil [grease].
Liam: You can't change everything but you can change some things.
<LiamMcGee> I can't change everything. But I can change something.
Shawn: Andrew does this approach work for you? does this work?
Andrew: In the introductory sections on what users need to do I will play around for now, unless people have something very specific.
Shawn: Comments on this document?
Liam: There is no way for people to share their experiences. Come back here and tell us how this works.
Shawn: We have in the slide set cover page, if you want to use this slide we'd like to hear how it worked, help us make this a better resource?
Liam: Make a comment really to encourage people reading this that if something worked successfully, or maybe not worked to communicate back and to improve this document.
Shadi: I love the idea, but how do you manage that?
Andrew: We put this out of scope because it is different in different countries.
Shawn: Add to the wish list.
Liam: Add to the wish list the ability to share your successes in the implementation of this documents.
Sharron: and lack of success.
Shawn: We don't have to say that, but we have plans to revive the WAI interest group. It is relatively easy to start a thread on the WAI interest group. There are somethings to do that would be doable in the time and resources.
<Andrew> ACTION: responding - add to wish list an ability share experiences with using this document so others can see how it worked. Success stories. Failures. Improvements. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/12-eo-minutes.html#action19]
Andrew: I could see that as being discussed by my relatives but some are very technical comments.
Shadi: Some other tools for the future. I love this concept.
Shawn: Suestions or suggestions for Andrew?
Andrew: Thank you for the insights.
Shawn: That is it, next week's agenda is still up in the air and will be updated soon. Plan on having that Monday or Tuesday at the latest. That's it.