EOWG 29 May 2009


  1. Contacting Organizations with Inaccessible Websites ("Responding doc")
    - (comments in e-mail from Alan)
    - high-level review:
  2. Business Case - discuss terminology:
    1. including older people with age-related impairments... OR
      including people with age-related functional limitations
    2. Older people with age-related visual deterioration benefit from... OR
      Older people with visual decline benefit from
    3. Older people with diminished fine motor control benefit from... OR
      Older people with reduced fine motor control benefit from
    4. Older people with hearing loss benefit from... OR
      Older people with hearing decline benefit from
    5. "accomodation" (in WAI-AGE slides, not business case)
      - "Accessibility Accomodations" slide title
      - "an audience of developers might be more interested in the impairment [needs] they need to accommodate."
      - "need to be more accessible and accommodating for older people."
  3. [postponed] Before After Demo (BAD) - review navigation


Shawn, Doyle, Sharron, Andrew, Jennifer, Yeliz, Shadi, Liam, Lisa
Jack, Song, Alan, William, Helle, Sylvie
Doyle, Sharron


<shawn> btw, we'll have a new person this morning, and we'll do brief introductions at the beginning, so can you stay audible until after that so you can introduce yourself?

Ok: -)

Contacting Organizations with Inaccessible Websites`

Shawn: Topic number 1 let's get started. We used to call the responding document. Andrew has a complete draft here. We want to do two things, high level review, we don't want to get into detailed editing, watch for sentences hard to read, details to be tightened up, and then Alan sent some questions and we'll decide which ones need discussion.

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/responding/

Shawn: Let's look at high level review. Overall does it have the right type of information, anything missing, anything not needed?
... who is ready to discuss? Anyone need to skim?
... high level comments.

Sharron: I thought it was good, a few little places I might have changed the wording,
... nice to know how much it has been used. Been out here for a while. Out for awhile?

Shawn: no has been draft.

Andrew: initial working title.

Sharron: be able to track who use it?

Shawn: we have not been successful with that.

Sharron: If I was really frustrated with someone's website, it seems a little long. I didn't have anything specific but it seems like a lot for someone to go through, but I didn't find anything to change.

Shawn: Andrew can you put in the changelog, about really frustrated person put in for review.
... others?

Liam: good but might be able to simplify the language. One question is copyright make it copyleft to publish if you like.

Shawn: do we have a feel free to use this?

<andrew> ACTION: contacting - add to CL a use case of the "person who is really frustrated and worked up and lands here" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/29-eo-minutes.html#action01]

Andrew: no we don't we do want to reuse in letters and so forth.

<andrew> ACTION: contacting - add the "permission to reuse" wording [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/29-eo-minutes.html#action02]

Shawn: could you put in the action to do this? A broader question, we have that in the footer in most things, but we want the appropriate reference but they use at will. I'll put in action to look at the broader thing.

Liam: simplify is the only thing.

Shawn: others?

Yeliz: I don't have anything about the document. I really like and hope people would take and use it.

Shawn: tone be shortened, be clarified? Let's walk through the sections. Andrew?
... Look at Alan's comments?

<andrew> Alan's - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2009AprJun/0089.html

Andrew: Alan's comments were along the line of taking out some and.

Shawn: when we get to an area where Alan's questions apply put in IRC.

Jennifer: In my experience, I think the sample emails are a good idea. My hope we don't cut them too much.

Shawn: template and samples. We have two. Let's start and do a little bit more section by section to see what jumps out. Preface?
... what information in that preface is important to have at the beginning of the document.

Andrew: I would like to get rid of but there is some information about who this is for. I would like to see what EO has to say. Guidance of who this is for.

Liam: A better title would remove the need for the preface.

Andrew: you mean a better title overall?

Liam: yeah.
... should be always how to.

Liam: How to complain about an inaccessible website.

Sharron: how to communicate with people with an inaccessible website.

Shawn: Andrew you want to say anything.

Andrew: no we have some titles in the changelogs. But I don't want to comment yet.

Shawn: How to complain about an inaccessible websites.

Jennifer: I am concerned with starting a complaint but I like Liam's.

<shawn> how to enlightened...

Liam: hit an inaccessible site what would they type in google?

Jennifer: unfortunately they will do that.

Shawn: let's keep going to other ideas to that. Complain is kind of negative. What are other ideas? How to respond to inaccessible webstite
... how to report an inaccessible website?

Sharron: that might be pretty good.

Shawn: How to address an inaccessible website.

Andrew: some of the other words reporting, helpiing encourgaing responding,

Shawn: what to do when you come across an inaccessible website.

Sharron: what to do when encountering?

Jennifer: what to do when a web site is inaccessible.

Liam: fix it!

andrew: getting complain in there is a good one from the point of view of searching.

Shawn: in a heading would help a little, but not in text.

Sharron: constructive complaint, something like that.

Shawn: let's talk about that. To have complaint in. We all know the negative aspect.

Liam: type into google brings me to the article on

please repeat.

Liam: what's being relevent Bruce Lawson

Sharron: in the U.S. we have something accessible technology.

Shawn: How to complain an inaccessble web site. That comes with a Liam comment.

Andrew: enough of these words in the minutes and they'll find it.

Shawn: Once we publish something it will be in email and links we can get pretty high up there.

Yeliz: when I get the google, I wonder why I get SOCOG and J.Clark to come up.
... one word different about is missing in my search and I get something different.

Shawn: the best thing people to link to with the words.

Liam: to list in a prominent place got listed.

Shawn: let's not use complain in the title because it is not worth in the title.

Liam: writing in the way that the reader will want to say.

Shawn: what about the others?
... How to report inaccessible websites. What to do when it is inaccessible. Thoughts on those two?

Yeliz: I prefer the first one.

Doyle: I like the first one.

Shawn: how does Andrew based on the task force discussions what they like?

Andrew: I think that would go ok with the members of the task force. We haven't dicussed the active How to.

Shawn: we are not at the point of finalizing, try How to report inaccessible web sites, or try some more.

Sharron and Jennifer: try it.

Andrew: How to complain about a site we can't use.

Shawn: record an action. How to report inaccessible web sites.

<andrew> ACTION: contacting - try "how to report inaccessible websites" as the title [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/29-eo-minutes.html#action03]

Shawn: let's make a quick change?
... now what do we need to say in the first paragraph/

Liam: need to complain about an inaccessible website.

<andrew> ... here are some tips

Shawn: Here is how to do it. A little less casual?

Sharron: I like casual. I know I am in the right place.

Shawn: need to put in parenthesis by the way we suggest you approach in a way other than complaining.

Sharron: we tell them how to complain is useful and constructive. We tell them how to communicate. Not a bad thing if it is not working. The word complaint is all right to follow with useful and constructive.

Jennifer: my main concern is in the title.

Andrew: yes I like that it be more punchy in the start.

Shawn: it may not need an H2, don't have to write an H2 before the text.

Andrew: it was a comment from someone which is why it is there.

Shawn: I don't know if that matters.

Andrew: before the preface text.

Shawn: we would have test usability to see if that is an issue. Andrew are you comfortable with something that casual? Punchy?

Doyle: I feel your pain Andrew.

Andrew: I like it but it would be difficult to follow through with it.

Shawn: anything else to get across in the first paragraph? Delete most of the first paragraph in the process or most. The title says how to report an inaccessible website, what else do you need to know.

Jennifer: my guess is can we do some sort of here are the five items you need to cover here are the highlights. What is wrong with the page and say very briefly.

Andrew: it's in there because of the approach.

Shawn: still kind of long though. I am in a hurry and I won't read this. Maybe we do need someone fire off something in ten minutes. How can we give them in the short amount of time we'll have their attention. Can we lure them into taking a little more time to think about what to do.

<andrew> ACTION: contacting - open with "need to complain about an inaccessible website? Here is a an approach ..." (and delete remainder of 'preface'?) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/29-eo-minutes.html#action04]

Sharron: the information in the introduction of why this may be happening. I think people may not care about why a developer or what not is there. Not be in the intro, something like why this is inaccessible.

<andrew> ACTION: contacting - CL requirements - can we give a 1 2 3 for the person who is angry and in a hurry [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/29-eo-minutes.html#action05]

Shawn: I think the point that they listen people, may have inaccessible not because they are jerks but because they don't know better.

Sharron: It doesn't really introduce how to rather give a background, it doesn't seem that way to me.

Andrew: much more background as you say.

Liam: it comes across we are defending the site, but we want the reader to feel sympathized with. Helpfully they can get mad and get it fixed.

<LiamMcGee> Don;t just get mad, get even (even better accessibility, that is)

<LiamMcGee> This should take 10 minutes to read through, but if you follow the steps in this process you will stand a good chance of making sure that other people do not have to suffer the same frustration.

Shawn: please type your thoughts also with Doyle typing. Yeah this is really great if this inaccessible if you take a little time to do it this way to make clear the site is inaccessible and review this page and this might give you some ideas on how to approach them. Something along those lines?
... Andrew what do you think about that for the very beginning?

andrew: yes as some sort of short of introduction. Maybe an H3 called background?

Shawn: no.

Liam: say why are they doing this.

Shawn: why is a site inaccessible.

Liam: why would they do this to me, Why would they make me so angry.

Shawn: I think we should find a happy ground. Andrew you have been involved in the details but we have a different approach.

Sharron: something in that paragraph why are they doing this to me.

Jennifer: I don't see it does much harm. A lot of people don't know why this happens.

Liam: there is also organization it is off the radar.

<shawn> ACTION: contacting - consider heading: "Why are websites inaccessible?" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/29-eo-minutes.html#action06]

Jennifer: I am talking about consumers, that people make deliberate decisions that developers decide to make a site blind people can't use.

Liam: they just don't care.

<LiamMcGee> Was this an accident, or are they out to get me?

Shawn: a lot of people with disabilities don't realize, some developers don't care, a lot of developers don't know.

<LiamMcGee> <answer - usually accidental. Usually.>

shawn: a lot of people don't know, and number two it is harder to do well.

Jennifer: important to leave in but retitle.

Shawn: what you just said Andrew, is that really a major point. That is like talking to the developer, or is that really talking to the consumer. If you have two bullets they stand out more clearly.

Sharron: condense the comments into two.

Liam: split into don't know or don't care.

Shawn: making the point they just don't know. That doesn't come through in this section. If they read this would they say a lot of people don't know, they don't care about the importance. You want to step back and what do you say to best communicate this. I'm not sure these six bullets communicate that.

Andrew: yes, good feedback.

Shawn: what else about getting into it? First point we want to make. The first point encouraging people to report it well help the developers change it?

Liam: this is your chance to make these start happening broadly.

Jennfier: why should come second. The idea to encourage them to look at this document they will learn a little more how to do what they want.

Shawn: we keep talking about the angry person coming to this document to complain, what other use cases have you for this document, what percentage as opposed to other use case.

Andrew: one people who might fire off something and when they calm down, they might get to another approach. The other use cases for somebody might be aware of friends or family who are having trouble, and organizations, and a lot small disability or older peoples' organizations that might find this useful. Partially discounting the person who is super angry. Won't come here.

Liam: when you get a piece of spam you report.

Jennifer: it is hard to know if they know how to google really well. People would not think to google.

Shawn: another thing to note. one of the target audiences for WAI work is to reach out in general for WAI to reach out to PW
... one simplified overview some things that make a site accessible, and two is this document. Now WAI and others can more directly reach out to PWD and organizations. People coming across from google and we'll get a lot pointers, in mailing lists and etc.

Sharron: yes a good point I could have used that recently. In Texas the only way to report a utility provider is through an inaccessible web site.

Liam: you are presenting with a simple comment, not an involved document.

Shawn: I think for mailing list come through because we actively promoted.

Andrew: not for an immediate use.

Shadi: So for me personally the mere existence of this document reminds one to not shut up when you come across an inaccessible site. You can get ideas from other people. Much more an empowerment tool.

Shawn: Andrew add some of these thoughts into the analysis. Or point to the minutes.
... Other ideas for getting into this? Andrew?
... let's go through Alan's comments? Andrew would you bring up which questions you want EO to discuss? Alan's comments sent in email.

<andrew> Alan's comments - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2009AprJun/0089.html

Andrew: there is seciton about your computer system. The task force was torn about how much of that is requjired and how much optional. Alan feels there is too much detail. The detail is about older user and not understand the term operating system. a little bit more detail than an audience who is more informed about using their computers.
... we also were debating suggestions the operating system and really important to report that, but a significant part of they audience wouldn't have clue and how to address them so they unnderstand better.

Liam: I agree you have to explain this fully.

Sharron: I agree

Jennifer: I agree

<yeliz> +1

Shawn: the other thing what browser or software do you use. You might say if you don't know. In the middle if you need help at the bottom.

Andrew: was considered too specific.

Liam: something to link to? We could do that through out the document.

Sharron: I like that.

Shawn: Tell me more. what browser and settings for assitive technology. A section tell me how. Andrew? Increase the scope?

Andrew: primary audience is who needs the text, less happy less inclined to jump around in a particular article. We ruled out of scope.

Shawn: realistically that audience likely to do this?

Andrew: if it is picked up by their representative organizations we are hoping this will happen. We can encourage extra groups of people complaining.

Liam: and they are very good at writing letters.

Shawn: what about somehow making this easier to skip if you know this, and here is the hand holding.

Liam: pull the hand holding out or even start differently and read through explanations or just skip.

Andrew: like we did with the examples?

<andrew> ACTION: contacting - look at facilitating both 'geeks' and 'newbies' - those who know stuff and those who need handholding [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/29-eo-minutes.html#action07]

Shawn: Andrew take an action to look at somehow facilitating the ends of the spectrum so that knowledgeable user who knows a browser say and the unknowlegeable user. Goes along with our beginning accommodating a person who can skim through and the person who will spend a little time and study it.

Andrew: four steps and follow to and also be linked to further down.

Shawn: next from Alan's email?

Andrew: one other thing Alan suggested in answering the question anything missing. An example, I had to shop somewhere else, those types of things. Nice idea I'm not sure about that at all. I am very luke warm about that.

Shawn: reactions add something like that or not.

Doyle: no

Liam: yes a good idea because the person writing the letter is not just annoying someone.

Shawn: not necessarily negatively impacted the user and impact the site.

Andrew: are you really going to get back to a site after going somewhere else?

Jennifer: when you get someone else to help you.

Shawn: Liam's point is a little different about the direct point. If there is a clear loss to the organization you might want to mention that. or do we say

Andrew: elaborate?

Shawn: for example I am buying x your competitor is getting our business. Liam's point is how to tell the site what they are loosing.

Doyle: no it doesn't work for me.

Shawn: say that were was not a lot of support of the affect on the individual and ...

Andrew: we have that in the examples.

Shawn: yep.

Andrew: I think Alan was suggesting being more pointed.

Shawn: can we say we addressed the group feels like adding that to the document.

Jennifer: add to the bullet but not go to a lot of detail. I don't know how to do without a lot of detail.

Shawn: he is quite fine with a good discussion good at sending ideas and fine with discussing we don't think we should add that.
... Andrew wrote back and we talked about adding this, we want to keep the document shorter and here are the minutes.

Andrew: one other point, the legal point, specific question does this need a disclaimer encourage people to seek appropriate legal advice in different countris may be different. as follow up take some legal action.

Shawn: give the time draft something Andrew?

Shadi: do we need to draft up something?

Andrew: yes if you consider action. Alan writes people who need to know of protection and need to know legal action. A pointer in the right direction. Use in countries for more directly pointed material....

Shawn: the first point on the disclaimer what are you thinking might be needed?

Andrew: from somebody else, do we need to offer a disclaimer we are not lawyers and you should take the appropriate advice and approach. If you have a possibility.

Shadi: we are not giving legal advice in the disclaimer, add a qualifying statement. A few lines and leave at that.

Shawn: Alan says it needs to know laws and precedents. Anyone want a disclaimer. Andrew take that off the open issues list. It is addressed unless somebody else brings it up. Another issue is do we need to talk about the legal aspects, people to skim the page again. More is need or warranted or needed in that to discuss.

andrew: that would be really good.

Shawn: in replying to Alan couuld you provide a specific suggestion because this is pretty broad.

Shadi: I want to raise concerns about going into legal. Specific requests?

Shawn: alan

Shadi: I do not think the discussion the objective is to empower users I feel strongly to not give legal advice. How do I start a lawsuit has to be country specific and that be a new document.

Shawn: Alan's point is people need to know there is legal protection. No one thinks we need to go where you suggest. We need to go back to Alan, and reacting to the general legal issue and get something more specific.
... anything else?

Business Case - discuss terminology:

Shawn: when we were doing some final editing on the business case, we had some question about terminology. We'll take only a little time on this, partly because we might want to get some feedback from others like Sylvie.
... Shadi do you want to say something about this?

Shadi: in rereading the business case document I found some instances the term impairment, not opposed to that term and avoid in all uses. But there is an over use and people fell a bit offended or not spoken to. I was giving some suggestions for editors discretion actually.

Shawn: for the business case the primary audience is someone who should be convinced to make accessible.

Shadi: and someone to convince someone to make the change also.

Liam: the end of this is to convince. I agree with the negative implication word disability may be better to use than impairment.

Sharron: to replace impairment. I agree with if you don't want to use impairment to use disability, and not use functional limitations.

Liam: no improvement to me.

Jennifer: seems to me beaurocratic.

Liam: age is specifically older people.

Shawn: andrew you use functional limitations in the slides and reconsider using that as well.

Liam: functional limitation is a legalism/

Shawn: lets look at the next three, age related visual deteriation, versus reduced motor control, hearing loss versus hearing decline.

Sharron: hearing loss is common term. No one is offended. That is not something to avoid.

Andrew: other ones you are indifferent about?

Sharron: hearing loss is not as loaded as hearing deteriation is more loaded. With hearing loss streching the terms of the language. Use visual decfline is fine instead of deteriation.

<yeliz> I agree with Sharron

Shawn: does any one feel different?

Shadi: I am wondering about the distinction between deaf and can hear. Related to vision reduced vision but not be blind.

Shawn: in the U.S. hearing loss.

Doyle: I have this sort of hearing loss.

Shawn: in the U.S. does not mean you are deaf.

Doyle: I shot a lot of guns as a kid.

Andrew: for a non English speaking person does it have stronger connotations.

<yeliz> http://www.sigaccess.org/community/writing_guidelines/

Shadi: related to my non-native background. Keep as is and look at the background.
... Yeliz?

Yeliz: I think a really good resource about what to avoid regarding to hearing loss I think it fine.

Doyle: please type in this group into IRC.

Yeliz: they note people not using terms correctly. I like this document quite well.
... they pay attention to international connotations.

Shawn: WHO and UK organizations. Cool. Leave hearing loss does it say anything about term to avoid. Reading choice of words with hearing loss. Pending any other objects pending more research. Visual decline is that too subtle?

Jennifer: I have seen vision organizations use vision loss.

Shawn: that translate into blindness.

Liam: deteriating visual.

Shawn: older people with deteriorating vision. Shadi ok?

Shadi: yes

Shawn: older people with diminishing fine motor control. Reduced sounds wimpy.

Liam: full control fine movement. Shaking hands.

Shawn: limited fine motor control.

Liam: I don't like the phrase motor control it feels like jargon.

Shadi: if the word diminished is not jumping out leave there.

Shawn: Other alternatives to fine motor control?

Liam: movement with limited control of the mouse.

Shawn: if all mouse?

Andrew: arthritis makes it hard to type too.

Shawn: are all bullets related to mouse?
... the previous draft said people having difficulty using a mouse. fine motor control is much more precise and broad, but here say difficulty with using the mouse?

Jennifer: mouse or keyboard.

Shawn: the two examples are mouse.

Jennifer: sneak in keyboard.

Liam: yes really is keyboard also.

Andrew: to take out mouse in relation to visual deterioration related impact and some specific instances. One reason to change.

Shawn: leave at the diminished.

Doyle: who will clean up notes?

Shawn: thanks for discussion.

Lian: You can not accomodate an impact
... you accomodate a need

Shawn: But for a slide heading "Accessibility Accomodations"?
... Liam, Shadi, Yeliz what is your reaction, for a non-US perspective

Liam: complicated English

Andrew: anything negative in the term itself?

Liam: No

Shawn: A slide is titled Accomodation

Yeliz: I thought accomodation was used instead of requirement but the word did not jump out.

Shadi: Requirement implies legal issues and would be of more concern.

Jennifer: When I hear accomodation, because of its association with ADA, I think of legal requirments

Sharron: Yes I agree with the association with ADA

Shawn: In the US many have a negative reaction to accomodation and associate it with expense.

<yeliz> I didn't know about this

Shawn: in US the word is very heavy. With that in mind, we need to decide if we still want to use it.

<LiamMcGee> While I think about it (mailserver is down): reduced/less/poor control of fine movements

Shadi: Since it is an opening slide, it may create an expectation of the presentation that would not be the same if only used in the text.

Shawn: ADA in US caused expense for retrofit and is different from what we are saying in terms of developing a web site from the beginning.

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/demos/bad/draft/2009/after/home/

Shawn: we had wanted to talk about navigation in Before and After demo. Shadi, do we want to get folks to review in advance or just ask for immediate reaction at Jun 11 meeting?

Shadi: I would appreciate it if folks could look in advance and click around to get some comments and responses. Send to me or the list.

Shawn: Updated documents and B/A demo next time
... thanks for input . Bye

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: contacting - add the "permission to reuse" wording [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/29-eo-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: contacting - add to CL a use case of the "person who is really frustrated and worked up and lands here" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/29-eo-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: contacting - CL requirements - can we give a 1 2 3 for the person who is angry and in a hurry [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/29-eo-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: contacting - consider heading: "Why are websites inaccessible?" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/29-eo-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: contacting - look at facilitating both 'geeks' and 'newbies' - those who know stuff and those who need handholding [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/29-eo-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: contacting - open with "need to complain about an inaccessible website? Here is a an approach ..." (and delete remainder of 'preface'?) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/29-eo-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: contacting - try "how to report inaccessible websites" as the title [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/29-eo-minutes.html#action03]
[End of minutes]

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