HTML Weekly Teleconference

04 Jun 2009


+1.218.340.aabb, DanC, dsinger, Matt_May, Shepazu, Sam, Cynthia_Shelly, Joe_Williams, ChrisWilson, LauraCarlson, +49.251.280.aacc, Julian, Laura




<MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Jun/0026.html

<pimpbot> Title: PF Response: Summary from Janina Sajka on 2009-06-04 (www-archive@w3.org from June 2009) (at lists.w3.org)

<MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009AprJun/0737.html

<pimpbot> Title: Origin enables XSS to escalate to XSRF (was: security issue with XMLHttpRequest API compatibility) from Mark S. Miller on 2009-06-03 (public-webapps@w3.org from April to June 2009) (at lists.w3.org)

<pimpbot> planet: How does the low real time typing work in Google Wave? <11http://stackoverflow.com/questions/932415/how-does-the-low-real-time-typing-work-in-google-wave>

<MikeSmith> http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/pinkerton/archives/020035.html

<pimpbot> Title: Sucking less, on a budget: Browsers are hard, mmkay? (at weblogs.mozillazine.org)

<MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009AprJun/0713.html

<pimpbot> Title: Re: XBL2 Status? from Arthur Barstow on 2009-06-02 (public-webapps@w3.org from April to June 2009) (at lists.w3.org)

<pimpbot> planet: The video tag's fatal flaw <11http://www.reddit.com/r/browsers/comments/8pooo/the_video_tags_fatal_flaw/>

<pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 6776] Note the XSLT implications of assigning HTML elements into the http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml namespace <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jun/0037.html>

<shepazu> pimpbot, help?

<pimpbot> shepazu: Huh?

<jgraham> pimpbot: Less useful than skippy the bush kangaroo

<pimpbot> jgraham: Huh?

<MikeSmith> pimpbot used to rock the mike, but unfortunately has now stripped the jeep to fill his pipe

<pimpbot> MikeSmith: Huh?

<MikeSmith> pimpbot, take a bong rip

<pimpbot> MikeSmith: Huh?

<gsnedders> pimpbot sux.

<pimpbot> gsnedders: Huh?

<gsnedders> pimpbot: Dude, just accept it.

<pimpbot> gsnedders: Huh?

<gsnedders> pimpbot: おめでとうございますと言う意味、良く頑張ったと言う意味

<pimpbot> gsnedders: Huh?

<gsnedders> Damnit.

<gsnedders> I thought pimpbot would understand!

<Dashiva> Mike is not pimpbot

<gsnedders> Dashiva: I know.

<MikeSmith> living proof that stuff will kill you

<MikeSmith> dude used to be able to rhyme like Bobby Womack

<Dashiva> How can you be living proof... of killing

<gsnedders> Life and death are one and the same.

<MikeSmith> most of our heroes unfortunately live long enough to eventually deeply disappoint us

<Dashiva> I think I prefer that to lost potential

<gsnedders> I wanted you to die before you disappointed me!

<jgraham> MikeSmith was your hero?

<gsnedders> Totally.

<jgraham> I really never want to be your hero.

<Dashiva> You can still be "an hero"

<gsnedders> jgraham: You aren't heroic enough.

<jgraham> phew

<MikeSmith> anyway, I'm really, really glad that 99% percent of Web UAs aren't browsers

<gsnedders> "If some day we get to meet again"

<gsnedders> MikeSmith: I'm relying on you knowing the next line :P

<jgraham> In other unrelated comments, what is the leasy sucky linux pdf reader?

<Philip> jgraham: acroread?

<Dashiva> jgraham: The one that comes with ubuntu

<jgraham> I like evince but I have wasted literally days of my life waiting for the search

<jgraham> acroread is sucky on all platforms

<Philip> KPDF does nice smooth scrolling to search results

<MikeSmith> gsnedders: "don't know where, don't know when"?

<jgraham> Evince does "rescan the entire document evry single time you make a search"

<MikeSmith> "If some day we get to meet again"... we shall smoke a bowl in remembrance of things past?

<gsnedders> MikeSmith: FAIL.

<gsnedders> MikeSmith: "in a car crash, plane wreck, terrorist attack/or maybe next thursday night"

<Philip> KPDF has an "Aggressive" setting for memory usage, which makes it use loads of memory but page rendering and searches go faster

<jgraham> Oh KPDF sounds bad. I don't want to futz with memory usage settings, I just want it to not take several minutes to search 200 page documents

<jgraham> (OS X preview gets this right)

<gsnedders> jgraham: Use OS X :P

<MikeSmith> gsnedders: if that turns out to be a line from some crap christian heavy-metal band, I'm going to burn my christian-hard-rockers card once and for all

<gsnedders> MikeSmith: CSS.

<jgraham> gsnedders: I can't. And it's really not better than Linux overall anyway

<gsnedders> MikeSmith: "This Month, Day 10"

<MikeSmith> gsnedders: you have passed the test, grasshopper

<MikeSmith> you have snatched the pebble from my hand

<gsnedders> Actually, seeming iTunes has just gone on to U2, I'll listen to that because that means I don't need to change it :P

<gsnedders> (And I'm lazy)

<Philip> jgraham: Even on the default, it takes KPDF about 2 seconds to find a term on page 2084 of the OOXML spec (at least the second time you search - it takes a while to cache stuff the first time)

<Philip> jgraham: whereas evince seems to take ~20 seconds each time

<jgraham> Philip: That sounds like a sensible improvement

<MikeSmith> gsnedders: 俺の話を聞け!

<gsnedders> MikeSmith: Sorry, Sir.

<MikeSmith> gsnedders: tiger and dragon

<jgraham> Which involves pulling all of KDE :(

<Philip> jgraham: KPDF is just part of kdegraphics

<Philip> (which also involves pulling all of KDE)

<Philip> (which should be seen as a great opportunity)

<MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah, isn't that the really wonderful thing about KDE?

<Philip> The fact you have to install it before you can use it?

<jgraham> A great oppertunity to have a bunch of libraries for useless, ugly, unusable software that I have no interest in filling up my hard drive?

<MikeSmith> (you make a 2-line change to once source file, then need to re-build 300MB of KDE whatever9

<MikeSmith> jgraham: yes

<MikeSmith> that's the magic for KDE

<Philip> jgraham: Yes, except that they're useful and pretty (at least with some themes) and usable, and hard disk space is basically free

<MikeSmith> the only thing worse is Gnome

<MikeSmith> so make your choice wisely, grasshopper

<Philip> MikeSmith: I think KDE is all modular nowadays, so you don't have to recompile absolutely everything

<Philip> though I'm not sure if that's only really in KDE4

<MikeSmith> jaja, fantástica respuesta

<Philip> (Gentoo does something fancy so that KDE3 is modular, e.g. it's got a standalone kpdf package and doesn't have to compile everything else)

<jgraham> Argh. It wants me to use F3 for find next. That is basically a deal breaker

<MikeSmith> KDE4 frightens and confuses me

<Philip> jgraham: What's so bad about F3?

<MikeSmith> I'm actually just a caveman. I fell on some ice and later got thawed out by some of your scientists.

<jgraham> Philip: It's not ctrl+G

<Philip> jgraham: I expect you can rebind the keys fairly easily

<Philip> jgraham: (Is this some KDE application? If so, the KDE control centre has Regional & Accessibility -> Keyboard shortcuts -> Application shortcuts -> "Find next")

<jgraham> Oh OK, I managed to rebind the controls. Now how do I change the theme to be "just look like my GTK theme as much as possible, please"

<Philip> jgraham: Maybe http://labs.trolltech.com/page/Projects/Styles/GtkStyle

<pimpbot> Title: Qt Labs - Projects/Styles/GtkStyle (at labs.trolltech.com)

<Philip> jgraham: (or use http://code.google.com/p/gtk-qt-engine/ for the reverse effect, which you presumably don't want)

<pimpbot> Title: gtk-qt-engine - Google Code (at code.google.com)

<Philip> jgraham: or just accept that different applications will look different, like they do on every other OS

<jgraham> Philip: Yeah but this looks shockingly awful

<Philip> Ah, if it's ugly rather than just different, then that's a problem :-)

<jgraham> Maybe there is a nicer thee but if it is possible to make it just look the same as everything else that seems like the best solution

<jgraham> Sigh. Okular has decided to always start in fullscreen mode, forget my reassigned keyboard bindings when I close it down and ignore the theme I set in Qt-Settings

<jgraham> Plus the search is broken

<jgraham> It brings up a dialog when you search just to say "Searching"

<Philip> You should have installed Kubuntu so it would all work straight out of the box

<jgraham> Then, if it doesn't find anything it brings up a dialog that says "Foo not found" and you have to click OK

<jgraham> Do these people actually use their own software?

<Philip> Can you search by typing "/stuff" too?

<jgraham> It /cannot/ be this hard to write decent text search

<jgraham> Even in PDF which requires a lot of effort to get to the underlying text

<Philip> (By "click OK" I assume you mean "press Enter")

<jgraham> Philip: Perform some action which I have no need or desire to do

<jgraham> And now I will never be able to uninstall all the cruft I added to try it :(

<Philip> Search-as-you-type works in KPDF at least, so I'd assume Okular would have something similar

<jgraham> Philip: It "works" in the sense that it finds the right things

<jgraham> It is just horribly horribly badly designed

<DanC> action-34 due next week

<trackbot> ACTION-34 Prepare "Web Developer's Guide to HTML5" for publication in some way, as discussed on 2007-11-28 phone conference due date now next week

<rubys> action-105 due next week

<trackbot> ACTION-105 Should arrange a meeting between chairs of HTML WG and XHTML2 WG to ensure there is a plan for coordination of vocabularies to avoid incompatibilities. due date now next week

<anne> The CSS WG F2F day 2 just ended. So I'll miss this one

<DanC> trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Date: 04 June 2009

<ChrisWilson> One momemt

<ChrisWilson> er, moment

<rubys> chair: Chris Wilson

Chris: apologizes for the late start

<rubys> scribe: dsinger

JoeW; wants to know how to make comments on HTML5

Chris: start with an email on the WG list; it depends somewhat on the issue. wording etc. can be on list, anything big like charter, bring to the chairs' attention

review agenda planner

<ChrisWilson> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda

<pimpbot> Title: Input for Agenda Planning for the HTML Weekly - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

<ChrisWilson> action-114?

<trackbot> ACTION-114 -- Cynthia Shelly to report progress on ARIA TF -- due 2009-05-21 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/114

<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-114 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

ISSUE-35 (aria-processing)

<DanC> (what was that technical problem?)

Cynthia: ARIA is making progress, expects to bring some matters back to HTML in the next couple of weeks


Cynthia: implementation is also progressing, more on Windows than the Mac...
... ongoing discussions in ARIA on over-riding semantics in HTML, but many don't want to go there.

<DanC> e.g. radio buttons vs check boxes

<ChrisWilson> action-103?

<trackbot> ACTION-103 -- Julian Reschke to register about: URI scheme -- due 2009-05-21 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/103

<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-103 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

ISSUE-54 (doctype-legacy-compat)

Julian: discussion on URI-review started, some feedback, and a new draft is being worked on

<DanC> (I don't remember where the uri-review list is... searching...)

Julian: summarizes what Bjorn said. Nits about fragments, some IRI considerations, dependency on HTML 5 - and we'd like to avoid that

<DanC> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/uri-review/current/msg00869.html From: Bjoern Hoehrmann

<pimpbot> Title: Re: [Uri-review] Request to review about URI scheme (at www.ietf.org)

Julian: which makes circular normative references
... wonders whether there is a similar action on Larry, which maybe should be merged...(into one on Julian)

<Julian> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/uri-review/current/msg00869.html

<pimpbot> Title: Re: [Uri-review] Request to review about URI scheme (at www.ietf.org)

<ChrisWilson> action-99?

<trackbot> ACTION-99 -- Sam Ruby to review @profile -- due 2009-05-21 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/99

<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-99 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

ISSUE-55 (head-profile)

Sam: no-one seems to want to own review of @profile, can we make this action merely 'raised'?

DanC: wonders if we could close it, but Julian would object doing that

someone: wonders if an executive decree can solve it, but no 'executive' is willing to go there

<DanC> (yes, it makes sense to defer @profile until discussion of extensibility is also wound down.)

<DanC> let's keep metadata profiles (head/@profile) in HTML for use in GRDDL etc.

<DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jul/0571.html

<pimpbot> Title: let's keep metadata profiles (head/profile) in HTML for use in GRDDL etc. from Dan Connolly on 2007-07-09 (public-html@w3.org from July 2007) (at lists.w3.org)

Sam: we need an owner. The editor has made his opinion known, and we need an owner
... there has been extensive discussion, but we need the extensibility discussion
... we also need a resolution the editor is willing to write and can live with

DanC: thinks that the HTML 4 text could (should?) be used

Julian: mostly agrees with DanC, but notes we need to review whether multiple profiles are allowed

<DanC> (re multiple, it's clear enough to me that HTML 4 allows many. It's subsequent XHTML 1.x drafts that were less clear.)

Chris: is trying to look at extensibility with his colleagues, and so he'll run with this for the moment
... feels that we have most of the text, and given a discussion of extensibility, we may be able to solve it, and merely 'raised' is not good enough

DanC: notes Chris also owns Decentralized extensibility (41), and Chris agrees the two are related

<DanC> (hmm... I wonder about changing the issue name from head-profile to microdata. )

DanC: some discussion of what uses what and for what purpose

<ChrisWilson> action-121?

<trackbot> ACTION-121 -- Dan Connolly to submit id for URLs in HTML 5 -- due 2009-05-31 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/121

<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-121 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

<DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009May/0643.html

<pimpbot> Title: Updating the IRI spec to include "web addresses" from Larry Masinter on 2009-05-31 (public-html@w3.org from May 2009) (at lists.w3.org)

DanC: there is continuing editorial action here; some material will stay in HTML 5

Julian: we need an I-D to be submitted by Larry, but he's on vacation for two weeks. He's also trying to organize a face to face (IETF) on the IRI spec and possible revision
... but an IRI revision would be (at best) in the autumn. we probably need to define a term and the mapping to IRI in a separate spec.

<ChrisWilson> @dsinger - yes, action-99 was assigned to me

<pimpbot> ChrisWilson: Huh?

Julian: basically Larry's proposal, but in a separate document (not the IRI spec.)
... any preference on direction, anyone?

<Julian> ...define "Web Address" and its mapping to IRI (RFC 3987)

DanC: there was objection to 're-defining URL', and so we preferred a new term ('web address')
... getting the documents in the right places with the right content, gets us the right reviews by the right people.
... so an I-D will get review from IRI experts that'll never happen if we leave it in HTML 5
... reviews that Ian was concerned about malformed URLs (e.g. %%) and how they are handled

Julian: would prefer to layer on top of the existing spec. over re-defining terms
... i.e. add a layer of handling malformed addresses etc.
... notes that actually we permit IRIs, so calling them URLs is wrong from the start
... then there is handling non-ascii in the query part, where the IRI handling is unsuitable...
... so 'web addresses' are close to IRIs but not (alas) identical

(general thanks for the review, and we wait to see what Larry comes up with)

<Julian> ...unsuitable for documents not encoded in UTF-8...

Julian: graciously volunteers to take on an action, and co-ordinate with DanC and Larry
... in Larry's absence

(discussion of re-assigning actions etc.)

<DanC> ACTION: Julian coordinate with LMM and DanC to get an Internet Draft that addresses some HTML 5 href issues [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-html-wg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-125 - Coordinate with LMM and DanC to get an Internet Draft that addresses some HTML 5 href issues [on Julian Reschke - due 2009-06-11].

<DanC> action-125 due 2 July

<trackbot> ACTION-125 Coordinate with LMM and DanC to get an Internet Draft that addresses some HTML 5 href issues due date now 2 July

Julian: notes he'll be out for the next 3 meetings, alas

<DanC> close ACTION-121

<trackbot> ACTION-121 Submit id for URLs in HTML 5 closed

<ChrisWilson> action-86?

<trackbot> ACTION-86 -- Julian Reschke to review Thomas Broyer's IETF ID to see if we can postpone ISSUE-13 -- due 2009-06-01 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/86

<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-86 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

Julian: is communicating with Thomas but requests 4 more weeks

<DanC> ACTION-86 due 2 July

<trackbot> ACTION-86 Review Thomas Broyer's IETF ID to see if we can postpone ISSUE-13 due date now 2 July

<ChrisWilson> action-111?

<trackbot> ACTION-111 -- Laura Carlson to work on process issues re: summary -- due 2009-06-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/111

<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-111 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

ISSUE-32 (table-summary)

Laura: a recommendation was sent yesterday, discussion has started

<Laura> PF Recommendation: @Summary from Janina Sajka

<Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Jun/0026.html

<pimpbot> Title: PF Response: Summary from Janina Sajka on 2009-06-04 (www-archive@w3.org from June 2009) (at lists.w3.org)

<Laura> Response from editor and ensuing discussion:

<Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jun/thread.html#msg173

<pimpbot> Title: public-html@w3.org from June 2009: by thread (at lists.w3.org)

(Ian sent said rec.)

<Laura> The table summary issue seems to be at an impasse.

<DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jun/0173.html

<pimpbot> Title: Re: PF Response: Summary from Ian Hickson on 2009-06-04 (public-html@w3.org from June 2009) (at lists.w3.org)

<Laura> For reference, the "Mechanism to Summarize a Table" issue is detailed at:

<Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SummaryForTABLE

<pimpbot> Title: HTML/SummaryForTABLE - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)

(people read...)

Laura: this has been an issue for maybe two years, and is puzzled as to how to make progress
... people are reminded of the profile problem

<Laura> RFC 2119 compatible definition text for HTML 5 has been drafted by HTML WG Members.

<Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SummaryForTABLE/SummarySpecification

<pimpbot> Title: HTML/SummaryForTABLE/SummarySpecification - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)

Sam: wants to see the spec. text in context, so it could be (if desired) voted on

DanC: the arguments are not about integrated text, but about summary being harmful

Laura: says Steve wrote the text above

<Laura> If @summary is not reinstated in HTML5 or if the editor does not come up with an agreeable solution, formal objections will probably be filed.

<DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SummaryForTABLE/SummarySpecification#head-1172663079b5b6cd73b38e71357ad22f8108cc72

<pimpbot> Title: HTML/SummaryForTABLE/SummarySpecification - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)

Dave: wonders if the chairs should discuss it with the editor, and see if he agrees discussion is over and we should vote (and he'd accept the result of the vote)

Sam: thinks we should have a very clear text before we vote

<Stevef> gsnedders said: "points out we don't have consensus on a summary attribute" thats the case for lost of stuff in the spec.

Sam: feels that the editor would want such a vote at this point
... wants to know if there has been a response to Ian's contention that caption fills the role?

<Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SummaryForTABLE

<pimpbot> Title: HTML/SummaryForTABLE - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)

Laura: volunteers to make whatever improvements to that page are needed to have a clear vote

DanC: agrees with Sam, that Ian will want a vote, and that the onus is on those who feel the wiki is not good enough, to help improve it

<DanC> Laura, you're right, the version of 2009-06-04 13:14:01 is considerably better than when I last saw it

<ChrisWilson> s DanC/ChrisWilson

general feeling is to ask the group to get the Wiki page to a clear and un-biased description of the question, with a view to a future vote

<scribe> ACTION: Sam to send a call to the WG to update the Wiki page to adequately reflect both (all) viewpoints on summary, in prep. for a vote [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-html-wg-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-126 - Send a call to the WG to update the Wiki page to adequately reflect both (all) viewpoints on summary, in prep. for a vote [on Sam Ruby - due 2009-06-11].

<ChrisWilson> action-115?

<trackbot> ACTION-115 -- Michael(tm) Smith to set up WBS for HTML WG participants to attend HTML WG f2f during TPAC 2009 -- due 2009-05-28 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/115

<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-115 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

<ChrisWilson> action-123?

<trackbot> ACTION-123 -- Ian Hickson to discuss choice of embedding vcard microdata instead of referencing IETF spec and defining conformance reqs for HTML5 -- due 2009-05-21 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/123

<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-123 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

Dave: notes that CSS moved to early in the TPAC, so as not to overlap

Julian: describes the open/close/re-open/discussion/links that happened here
... followed up on the mailing list, and asked for a reply, and Ian responded it was deep in the stack and an answer wasn't likely soon

Chris: feels we should make this open rather than pending review, and give Ian time to get it to the top of his stack

Sam: wants to point out to Ian that the mail he referred to isn't enough of a response

Julian: wonders if this all belongs, anyway, as (some of?) the use cases were not agreed to

Chris: re-opened it on Ian and moved the due date out

Julian: would like someone (a chair?) to follow up with Ian

Sam: will do such

<ChrisWilson> any other business?

<ChrisWilson> adjourned.

Chris: moves to adjourn

<Laura> bye

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Julian coordinate with LMM and DanC to get an Internet Draft that addresses some HTML 5 href issues [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-html-wg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Sam to send a call to the WG to update the Wiki page to adequately reflect both (all) viewpoints on summary, in prep. for a vote [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-html-wg-minutes.html#action02]
[End of minutes]

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Default Present: +1.218.340.aabb, DanC, dsinger, Matt_May, Shepazu, Sam, Cynthia_Shelly, Joe_Williams, ChrisWilson, LauraCarlson, +49.251.280.aacc, Julian
Present: +1.218.340.aabb DanC dsinger Matt_May Shepazu Sam Cynthia_Shelly Joe_Williams ChrisWilson LauraCarlson +49.251.280.aacc Julian Laura
Found Date: 04 Jun 2009
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-html-wg-minutes.html
People with action items: coordinate danc julian lmm sam with

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